Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[Lys]

SQUEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

I finally got the package from Shore Leave. You all rock ! A very very big THANK YOU to all those who contributed. I'm totally in love with you.
This added to the wonderful holidays I had last week (big hugs to Coley and 1speed) was all I needed to get over 4 months of bad luck.

[STARGATE7777]

I mostly just lurk in this forum but...I agree that in GateWorld that most of the aggressive posters against Sam may be women but in other forums...WOW...there are some seriously unbalanced views against the Sam character and even spilling over to the actual actress. They really appear to be men who see Sam as the spawn of everything evil and responsible for everything from the negative characterization of females to global warming. I myself, have seen Sam very much in character in the relationships that she has had. So true that intellectual IQ does not often go with social and emotional IQ. Where I have questioned Sam being in character is some of the "professional" choices that they have written for her...not the personal ones. ( I don't really care if I'm the leader of SG1, I'll just let (insert male) lead.

[DEM]

re: social intelligence vs. IQ. I don't disagree that this could apply to Carter. What I question is the idea that that's what staff were trying to write with the Pete arc. Perhaps in the latter part of S8, but I'm not convinced they started out that way, considering how much they defended Pete's behaviour. That is, in order to show that Sam was 'settling' for the wrong guy, they'd have had to have written Pete as wrong. Now, I saw Pete as wrong as the day is long, but the writers have come right out and said point-blank that they did not see him that way.

Furthermore, in the end, Sam broke it off with Pete not because she realised she was trying to attain happiness or 'a life' in the wrong way, but because she was trying to attain it with the wrong guy. What kind of epiphany was that supposed to be? Then, to top it off, she even screwed that up. Ugh.

IMO, Carter in Thor's Hammer was a much better depiction of the emotional/social vs. rational idea. So was S5's Ascension. S7-8 Carter was... bizarro!Carter. IMO.

[minigeek]

Furthermore, in the end, Sam broke it off with Pete not because she realised she was trying to attain happiness or 'a life' in the wrong way, but because she was trying to attain it with the wrong guy. What kind of epiphany was that supposed to be? Then, to top it off, she even screwed that up. Ugh.

I have to disagree here. I think it was exactly that she realized it was the wrong way that prompted her epiphany. Had it been the wrong guy then we'd have seen a lot more solid proof vis-a-vis scenes to the effect that she "guy hopped" to Jack. As much of a shipper at heart as I am, I have to say that we didn't see that. We saw her end things with Pete and make herself generally "unavailable" (in canon), so it does stand to reason that her happiness in life quotient balanced out when she realized that the things she thought (originally) would make her happy, weren't in fact the things that true happiness embodied for her. She thought a white picket fence, a house with a yellow kitchen, a perfect 9-5(ish) husband, etc., normalcy would make her happy - she realized she was wrong about that. Not that she needed to be with Jack, but that those things she originally coveted as "normal" were not what she wanted or needed to be truly happy. She didn't screw anything up. She made it right by choosing to live 'a life' on her own terms, without second guessing herself based on social status quo for the first time (I think) ... ever.

mg

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Sam's clumsiness vis a vis her love life puts me in mind of a strong man around a newborn baby. The guy could pick up a small car, but here he is, clumsy nervous that he's gonna drop this tiny delicate thing. The rules for lifting heavy weights suddenly fly out the window and the guy is reduced to doubting his abilities before this monumental bundle of life.

Sam kicks alien butt, she blows up ships and suns, she keeps her cool before gods and black holes. She just doesn't do relationships very well.

But, yeah, the writing could have done a better job of showing us that.

[DEM]

I have to disagree here. I think it was exactly that she realized it was the wrong way that prompted her epiphany. Had it been the wrong guy then we'd have seen a lot more solid proof vis-a-vis scenes to the effect that she "guy hopped" to Jack. As much of a shipper at heart as I am, I have to say that we didn't see that.

We didn't? I'm not being sarcastic here: I thought that's exactly what we saw in Grace and again (after they decided to resurrect and re-discard Pete) in Threads.

She thought a white picket fence, a house with a yellow kitchen, a perfect 9-5(ish) husband, etc., normalcy would make her happy - she realized she was wrong about that. Not that she needed to be with Jack, but that those things she originally coveted as "normal" were not what she wanted or needed to be truly happy.

I don't understand where the "normal things" idea is coming from. I honestly don't remember that from the show. It seems to me that that is just as much an interpretation as mine was.

[Skydiver]

Sam's clumsiness vis a vis her love life puts me in mind of a strong man around a newborn baby. The guy could pick up a small car, but here he is, clumsy nervous that he's gonna drop this tiny delicate thing. The rules for lifting heavy weights suddenly fly out the window and the guy is reduced to doubting his abilities before this monumental bundle of life.

Sam kicks alien butt, she blows up ships and suns, she keeps her cool before gods and black holes. She just doesn't do relationships very well.

But, yeah, the writing could have done a better job of showing us that.

i kinda see sam as emotionally stunted. not necessarily a bad thing but, well i sincerely doubt jacob was the touchy-feely type. thus, after mom died, sam's emotional outlet was gone. mom wasn't there to tel her it was ok to cry, dad was there telling her that soldiers dont cry.

dad prided control, thus sam developed control, and kinda lost her handle to deal with emotions and feelings. as a soldier you set those aside anyway

so while she's brilliant in knowledge, emotionally she's not so good. and she's fighting against 20 years of lessons and walls to show and let herself have emotions

and no, i doubt the writers put that in there. I don't think they think that much. i think sam's lack of emotionality came first from brad writing sam as a member of the team first, woman second. then it just developed as a part of her

i think it's taken AMANDA almost 10 years to get them to and for herself to allow herself to play sam softer and realize that softer doesnt' mean she's any less badass.

i think there's a part of sam that craves love and someone to share her life with. but i think she's also scared to pieces of screwing something up, so settles for status quo because it's the lesser of several evils

[JenniferJF]

We didn't? I'm not being sarcastic here: I thought that's exactly what we saw in Grace and again (after they decided to resurrect and re-discard Pete) in Threads.

I don't understand where the "normal things" idea is coming from. I honestly don't remember that from the show. It seems to me that that is just as much an interpretation as mine was.

Grace was before Pete, and the only scene between her and real Jack was at the end when she told him she didn't need anything from him. In Threads, while I believe they ended up together, it wasn't an important part of her journey onscreen. What we *saw*, IMHO, was her realizing not to let the "rules", both of the Air Force and society, run her life and if she did end up with Jack (which I believe she did), their life together with them both in the Air Force is anything but normal. So it was deciding to break the rules that changed. She always knew she wanted Jack.

As for where "normal things" comes from, I think its inferred from the yellow kitchen comment, her talk in Daniel's lab from Affinity, her conversation with her Jacob delusion in which she envies her parent's "normal" life (but not its end, of course), the concept of "rules" reiterated by real-life Jacob...

And, while I agree with minigeek, I agree with you that her theory is just as much an interpretation as yours is. This is an essay question, not a true or false!

[Skydiver]

i think, with jacob's death, sam finally realized that life was too short, to heck with 'we're not allowed' go out and sieze the day (and a general of your choice ) and do some living before all you have are regrets and 'i wish.....'

[Skydiver]

I found Pete's sudden change from witty, considerate, intelligent lover to goes-behind-your-back info-digger, professional-priviledge-abuser, micro-controller fiance really freaky.

while i didn't like it and it did grate...i also know that poor pete fell in teh plot hole of a writer's incompetance and has never -and will never - dig himself out.

they tried to make two separate stories co-exist then converge,and they did a poor job of it.

and, apparantly, none of them were capable of looking down teh road, seeing how people would interprete pete and fixing it before it was too late

poor pete was another victim of coop's 'short term only' vision. They massacred him to fix their poor writing then stood back and scratched thier heads at the irrational fans that called them on thier mistake

Chimera coulda flowed seamlessly had Daniel introduced Pete to sam instead of mark. Then, after pete and sam's little dustup, pete coudl have concevable been going to talk to daniel, saw the stake out, got curious and the rest happened as it did

They screwed up and Pete will always pay the price

[Rachel500]

Oooh, lots of debate! Where to start....

OK, so the whole SaveStargateSG1.com survey results; I can't say I was surprised at the way the results came out. The survey was flawed in the way it was constructed and the options it offered. Poor Teal'c! (((( ))) I don't think it's fair assessment of how well his character is liked.

It was no surprise to me that Sam came out top as favourite female character. She is still the strongest and best female character they've written and I agree she tops ALL the other women characters across SG1 and SGA in terms of characterisation primarily because her character has generally been well developed and allowed to be the focus of serious character arcs and storylines from S1.

It's a shame that more hasn't been done to promote the Atlantis female characters in the same way. My all out favourite SGA story remains Before I Sleep; this was a fantastically written story which provided Weir with some much needed development as she gets to understand how she ultimately saved her team from death on their arrival in Atlantis. I'm still waiting for something for Teyla.

It's fascinating to me as someone relatively new to the online fandom that there are camps of fans and how virulent one group can be to another; at how virulent some of the criticism is against the characters who are after all only playing out the script written for them. I do think women, in general, tend to be much more critical of other women full stop. In real life; in fiction; in fandom. We do as a tendency seem to be much more forgiving of the male of the species than our own sex; maybe something to do with primal competition instincts for mates, who knows, but I'm not surprised that some of the more virulent of comments towards the female characters comes from female fans.

I guess on one level though I am surprised at the relative lack of objectivity from some fans (female or male) regarding the characters they dislike but each to their own. On Laira and Pete; an avowed Sam/Jack shipper I admit I'm not fond of either character, however, I can be objective about them taking my S/J hat off for a sec.

As a story I like 100 Days; it did examine an interesting 'what if' scenario in marooning one of the team on a planet with no means of returning to Earth in the immediate future. Laira is meant to be a sympathetic character; she is the one who has befriended the team in the beginning, continues to support Jack when he is stranded, offers him friendship, and also affection in the absence of his friends. She comes to depend and rely on him, seeing him as a prospective husband and father of more children (the concept of family and strong male figures seems to be a key aspect to the culture of the planet); no doubt Jack is considered by her to be a prime catch and who in all honesty can blame her?

However, ultimately, for me, the story fails to deliver her as a sympathetic character. Firstly, because of the whole 'give me a baby' thing; then because she pushes Jack into divesting himself of his past by chucking out his clothes and then because of the incident with the radio. Neither incident on its own is bad per se but taken as a series of character beats with the way it was directed and even acted to some degree, and for me it paints Laira as a woman who is just shaded a little too on the possessive/needy/clingy side rather than as a loving, caring woman simply wanting to hold onto the man she's come to love.

The other problem for accepting Laira as a sympathetic character is that Laira's relationship with Jack is juxtapositioned and intentionally contrasted directly with Sam's in the story, and the natural inclination of the audience is to side with the regular character they know and love (Sam). Had they played it more like Brief Candle with Sam's quest to bring him home simply motivated by friendship and to comply with the 'we never leave our people behind' principle, and not gone the route of hinting at Sam's feelings both in the scene in the lab and the one at the end where she turns away obviously upset at seeing Jack with Laira, Laira may have come across more as a sympathetic character to both shippers and non-shippers (although I still think they would have needed to look at the whole baby/clothes/radio thing to completely fix it for me).

As for Pete...he suffers the same fate as Laira in doing odd things that just shade the character badly. The Pete of the first twenty minutes of Chimera is OK; a little quirky and off beat, but a nice guy. He rapidly goes down hill with the morning after tantrum, the background check and the stalking to spy on her. Affinity Pete manages to pull some of that back but Threads Pete then sinks on the iceberg of Jacob's disapproval and the whole house buying without consulting Sam incident. If the writer's planned to write him as a completely nice guy who people could see why Sam would try for a normal life with, they failed both in the introduction of him and in his exit; he isn't consistent as a character and that for me is why the character doesn't work, and ultimately why that whole storyline doesn't work as a development piece for Sam.

Hmmm. I think I've rambled long enough.

[the dancer of spaz]

lol! Just for you, AD:

Spoiler:

Ok, soooo off-topic here

But soooo worth it. Man those guys can clean up well! The superficial side of me would like this pic poster-sized, to be perfectly honest...

Hmmm... Now where were we? Oh yeah...


I wish I had more to contribute to this topic, but I have to agree with those who say that Sam's been stunted emotionally because of her past. There are people who think Sam was this popular kid in high school, who was loved and adored by all, and I just don't see that - especially after her mother died. I see this smart kid who never fit in, and who was either too nice or too insecure to say anything to those who didn't respect her. When I think back to Carter as a kid, I think of her as a few steps away from Geek!Carter, but with more drive and focus on her side.

When it comes to whether or not she was happy and secure before that point of development, well I'm thinking she was still struggling with that confidence, but was able to turn to her mother when she had those bouts of insecurity. After her mother, possibly her only sense of security, died and she was left to deal with with her father and her brother (who were probably VERY alike), she probably found that dealing with her problems on her own was the safest way to go.

As a result, I honestly don't see her as being ready, willing or able to commit herself to any relationship without reservations of some kind. Though the confidence in her abilities and in her worth in relation to her career may be there, she probably has some deep-rooted issues with understanding what it means to let someone in - or, at least, to let the right people in.

I do see some parallels between Pete and Jonas, though I've never thought that Pete was a violent, crazy, psycho killer. But I can see how Sam from 15 years ago and Sam from three years ago might've gotten her wires crossed in terms of discerning who was right for her (the REAL her), and who was right for the socially acceptable version of herself. All of her life, she's been quietly outshining others around her, and she probably received a hard time for it. Neither man really responded well to a woman who showed outright independence, and even if Pete wasn't some macho sexist, I don't think he would've been able to deal with that aspect of Sam's life for the long haul... There are very few people who could. Maybe Sam should've pointed him in the direction of Sara (or Kerry)...

[Mandysg1]

Wow, there has been some very serious discussions going on, and after reading all those pages I just have to contribute my two cents
I still say it's plug in the kettle

[JenniferJF]

I realized that, while making it clear I appreciated the trip Sam went on in Seasons 7 and 8 with Pete (that led her to Jack, IMHO), I haven't given my opinion of Pete.....

Honestly, from the time I first saw him, can't get over the feeling that we are watching the first and (hopefully) only example of an actual 'Mary Jane' (I think that's the term) written by an actual writer for an actual sci-fi show. For those of you who don't know, WAAAY back in the day 'Mary Jane''s were characters in Star Trek fanfic written by female authors to involve themselves in the story. With Kirk. When he was Kirking. If you take my meaning.

I mean, look at Pete. Look at his name.

He didn't bug me, though, except for the nagging Mary Jane thing.

Oh, and OT, 100 Days is my hubbies favorite episode besides WoO and Urgo. Go figure.

EDIT: Realized I should have been clear. I don't think he WAS a Mary Jane, he just reminded me to much of one for me to take the character seriously. Which might have been a good thing all round.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

and no, i doubt the writers put that in there. I don't think they think that much. i think sam's lack of emotionality came first from brad writing sam as a member of the team first, woman second. then it just developed as a part of her

So... Brad writing, followed by bad writing. Got it.