Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[ForeverSg1]

so over on the optimistic ship thread we've been talking about serpents venom, which was a pretty good episode for all characters, including sam.

anyone got any thoughts on that ep here? (just for something on topic to talk about)

Serpent's venom is one of my all-time favorite episodes. It had so many great moments between each of the characters, and it was one of the best torture episodes for Teal'c.

Things I loved about this episode:

Jacob teasing Jack in the briefing room about needing Sam and Daniel, and Jack looking left out.

Jack pushing Daniel's glasses up on his face in the elevator.

Daniel and Sam trying to figure out how to reconfigure the bomb.

Jack and Jacob bantering and watching Jack fly the ship.

Jack pulling Sam out from under the bomb when Jacob was trying to divert the ship away from approaching bombs.

Sam's reaction when she's about to open the bomb and Daniel shouts "Wait, wait, wait."

Ah great, moments. I might try to add some caps in a bit.

[stargate barbie]

i already posted this in the s/j optimism thread but;

"green is good?"
"no"
"green is bad"
"yeah"
"how bad?"
"very very bad"
"DAAAD!"

I love this.

[stargate barbie]

also, jacobs; "I was gonna tell ya jack" (gotta love the smirk)

[majorsal]

I agree with whomever opined that Chimera probably had been planned as a one-off. (Was it golfbooy?) The structure of narrative flows very much as if Pete's gonna be a goner by the end of it (and possibly even eeevil!)... but then he isn't. When I first watched it, I was floored. It made no sense to me, and Sam, consequentially, looked like a grade-A idiot -- which then made me angry. Frankly, I found the entire Pete arc weird because it was so totally divorced from everything else going on in Carter's life. That could have been a nifty theme to explore; unfortunately the writers did next to nothing with it, so we were left with intermittent, random splats of sweater-set Carter. She looked dissociative. Feh. Makes me ill just to think of it.

there were two ppl (me being one of them ) that thought that maybe pete wasn't 'real', as in he was all in sam's mind.

now go with me for a moment, because you will be very surprised how much evidence goes for this theory.

this is only going by memory


spoilers for s7 and s8

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chimera, season 7. (pete's first appearance). half of sam's time with pete was private, and the other half, no one interacted with him besides sam. pete got hurt at the end of the ep, but did anyone -besides sam- interact with him?

new order(s), season 8 (pete really 'wasn't' real in this, so i'm going to ignore this ep for my theory. )

affinity, season 8. pete and sam in the park. the only person to respond to him was the guy that gave him and sam the hotdogs. but, if it was all in sam's mind, so was the guy giving them the hotdogs.

still in 'affinity', sam and pete at the stakeout to rescue daniel. pete only talks in front of others when they enter the wherehouse and wonders where everyone went. no one replies to pete, including sam. when sam accepts pete's proposal, sam and him are alone.

all the other scenes with them are when they're alone.

threads, season 8. now, *this* ep makes my theory harder, but before this ep, it still could have worked.

but if it all 'really' was in sam's head, then her moments with her dad and pete talking would 'also' be in her head. and even with everyone knowing about pete, did anyone actually 'see' him?

now why would this scenario even be done in the first place?

let's say that this all stemmed from the season 7 ep 'grace'. let's say that the 'grace' little girl gave sam a gift that lived itself out in the form of pete. grace knew what sam was going through; her doubts and desires and insecurities. so what if grace let sam see what trying for that life was like, only when she tried it with the wrong man. maybe grace could have seen through sam's 'jack wall' and let sam work through all her issues without 'really' living them.

so when sam starts questioning things, grace finally reveals itself. kind of like when fifth revealed himself in the pete/kitchen scene in 'new order'. or, when sam started questioning things, the truth was revealed in a dream or something.

basically, guys, there was a LOT of evidence that pete could have been a figment of sam's imagination, IF the writers were going to suddenly drop that bombshell. part of me wants that scenario to have been true, because i think it would have been better for the sam character than the way it was really played out.

what do you guys think?





sally

[Simhavaktra]

Sally, I think you'd love it. It's not overt ship in the fic, but it's no more, no less than in the series. It's lovely, warm and brilliantly written.

And I love the fact that you seem to be just talking to yourself at the moment. Where are all these people listed at the bottom of the page?

Well, I’m with Sal on this one.

I too have no particular concern for Pete's poor widdle bitty eeeegohhhh, recent divorce emotional owies, and height comparison / personal coolness comparison issues. He's an adult in a highly responsible profession - I don't really care to think that detectives who are expected to solve major crime have such poor judgment, are so completely influenced by their emotions, and have neither patience nor the ability to think ahead to imagine the possible consequences of their actions, nor, indeed, a sense of what constitutes acceptable behavior, much less right and wrong. Someone that impulsive and self-centered, with such poor judgment, in a position of authority and carrying a gun is, at the very best, a law suit wating to happen to the department for which he works.

Pete was a poorly conceived, written and executed character (sorry, Mr. Deluise was allowed to play that character way too giddy for my taste - there were scenes wherein I kept waiting for Sam to call a couple airmen to take him to the infirmary to start tox screens to figure out what he was hyped on), and that lack of plausibility in the Pete character definitely reflected on the Sam character.

Sam, is supposed to be a responsible, strong, successful world class scientist and battle tested senior military officer, yet, Pete opened the door to writing her as the complete doormat and fantasy female who falls for a regular guy and thereafter suffers the consequences of not conforming to men's social and emotional expectations (and, by that, I mean the writers, not just Pete or Jack). He even furthered the idea of her being somehow not really in command of SG-1 by making so much of the focus on Sam be about her *romance* instead of her command or her science. When Pete appeared in season 8 eps, I felt the focus was uniformly on making Pete look good, or, at least, like a regular and likable guy, instead of emphasizing how good he and Sam were together. The amelioration of Pete, even though it was seen through Sam's eyes, made Sam look weaker and less competent by comparison because it took place in Pete's particular area of competence, or under circumstances apparently designed to make Pete's rather ditzy or petulant reactions look appropriate and acceptable. Meanwhile, the investigation in Affinity made Sam look like an appropriately awed girl-friend and hanger-on, and the housebuying, meeting the alien dad, and eventual breakup made her look ungrateful, cold, and cruel, and, what's more ungrateful, cold, and cruel to a nice guy who deserved so much more and better. I don't understand why Pete gets to be a plot device that TPTB-Continuum obviously likes, cares about, and tries to improve, and a main character is macerated in the process. Sam is a main character - isn't the aim to depict the main characters' journeys? Not to improve the audience perceptions of the characters played by guest stars? Or was that the idea - to 'disimprove' Sam? Make her less than she was? Update viewers' perceptions of her character in a negative way? How many times have I heard people saying they don't like Sam because she 'cries all the time', or she's too emotional, or she's too weak, or she's too needy, or she doesn't contribute enough, or she's too involved in her self/personal life, or she gets the team in trouble? All of those impressions were reinforced by the Chimera / New Order / Affinity / Threads stories with Pete, dialogue about Pete, and interactions with Pete. The Pete character did no favors to Sam's character in providing the other half of her attempt to have a normal relationship (and to provide a story-arc impediment to the development of a relationship with Jack) - quite the contrary. And, to add injury to injury, Sam hasn't been allowed to grow from the experience, or even to learn anything from it in Season 9. TPTB-Continuum is 'finished' with the character of Sam, after all, so Sam's issues, including the Pete imbroglio in specific and life outside the Stargate program in general, will probably never be resolved, nor, one suspects, so much as addressed. In my opinion, that's reprehensible.

Sam is my favorite character on Stargate, and, frankly, I don't give a rat's rear end about poor widdle Petey's poor widdle self in comparison. He didn't fulfill Sam's needs, and he's not worth my time.

[Skydiver]

Nicely done.

thanks

[golfbooy]

so over on the optimistic ship thread we've been talking about serpents venom, which was a pretty good episode for all characters, including sam.

anyone got any thoughts on that ep here? (just for something on topic to talk about)

Serpent's Venom, eh? Well, these days I think I'd characterize the episode as cold fusion, the Holy Grail, a workable Theory of Unification--that is, Serpent's Venom is what TPTB find so elusive and what the fans desire so ardently. It is the quintessential team episode.

And no, SG-1 is not just in the same room for the entire time. In fact, Teal'c is never in the same room as everyone else. SG-1 doesn't even rescue him. But never do you feel that he's separate or cut off from the flow of the narrative. The two plots, neither of which is distinguishable as "A" or "B" stories, dovetail together naturally in the end, without seeming contrived or forced.

Further, Serpent's Venom manages to do something else that seems to be ever more difficult for the writer's these days, which is include TWO major recurring guest characters in the story without diminishing the other regulars. Jacob and Apophis blend naturally into the events taking place, both as complementary figures to SG-1. They need neither inordinate amounts of screen time nor a specially constructed episode to have value and to make their mark on the show.

Lastly, Serpent's Venom also manages to include real character growth for one of the regulars, in this case Teal'c. His capture and escape as well as his conversion of Rak'nor add real depth to his character, his quest to free his people, and to his suffering. You walk away from this episode with a greater understanding and appreciation of who Teal'c is and why does what he does. On top of that, the episode provides something really meaty for Chris Judge to sink his teeth into, which is always a bonus for your actors.

So, those are a few of my thoughts on Serpent's Venom. More like that one, please.


Edit to add: Oh, and how can you not love an episode that adds something to Sam Carter's Resume of Amazing Experiences? Reprogrammed a mine floating in space reads nicely with blowing up a sun, destroying all Replicators, and diverting asteroids from crashing into Earth.

[Skydiver]

i think this goes back to rob cooper not knowing how to write women in romances.

spoilers for s9's 'crusade'

Spoiler:

some fans are saying that vala accepting her hubby back into her life *when he left her to die for three days straight*... i guess vala can join sam in the doormat department (they're picking out a floral pattern )

can rob take a sensitivity class *before* writing his female characters?




sally

it's not just sensitivity

ok, so we're supposed to belive that

Spoiler:

after decades, centuries or more manipulating people, using her body to get her way and stuff, that vala is redeemed almost overnight by the 'love of a good man'?????

umm, you know, when you put it that way, vala is a lot like sam, she's the doormat to facilitate the plot

[majorsal]

Well, I’m with Sal on this one.

I too have no particular concern for Pete's poor widdle bitty eeeegohhhh, recent divorce emotional owies, and height comparison / personal coolness comparison issues. He's an adult in a highly responsible profession - I don't really care to think that detectives who are expected to solve major crime have such poor judgment, are so completely influenced by their emotions, and have neither patience nor the ability to think ahead to imagine the possible consequences of their actions, nor, indeed, a sense of what constitutes acceptable behavior, much less right and wrong. Someone that impulsive and self-centered, with such poor judgment, in a position of authority and carrying a gun is, at the very best, a law suit wating to happen to the department for which he works.

Pete was a poorly conceived, written and executed character (sorry, Mr. Deluise was allowed to play that character way too giddy for my taste - there were scenes wherein I kept waiting for Sam to call a couple airmen to take him to the infirmary to start tox screens to figure out what he was hyped on), and that lack of plausibility in the Pete character definitely reflected on the Sam character.

Sam, is supposed to be a responsible, strong, successful world class scientist and battle tested senior military officer, yet, Pete opened the door to writing her as the complete doormat and fantasy female who falls for a regular guy and thereafter suffers the consequences of not conforming to men's social and emotional expectations (and, by that, I mean the writers, not just Pete or Jack). He even furthered the idea of her being somehow not really in command of SG-1 by making so much of the focus on Sam be about her *romance* instead of her command or her science. When Pete appeared in season 8 eps, I felt the focus was uniformly on making Pete look good, or, at least, like a regular and likable guy, instead of emphasizing how good he and Sam were together. The amelioration of Pete, even though it was seen through Sam's eyes, made Sam look weaker and less competent by comparison because it took place in Pete's particular area of competence, or under circumstances apparently designed to make Pete's rather ditzy or petulant reactions look appropriate and acceptable. Meanwhile, the investigation in Affinity made Sam look like an appropriately awed girl-friend and hanger-on, and the housebuying, meeting the alien dad, and eventual breakup made her look ungrateful, cold, and cruel, and, what's more ungrateful, cold, and cruel to a nice guy who deserved so much more and better. I don't understand why Pete gets to be a plot device that TPTB-Continuum obviously likes, cares about, and tries to improve, and a main character is macerated in the process. Sam is a main character - isn't the aim to depict the main characters' journeys? Not to improve the audience perceptions of the characters played by guest stars? Or was that the idea - to 'disimprove' Sam? Make her less than she was? Update viewers' perceptions of her character in a negative way? How many times have I heard people saying they don't like Sam because she 'cries all the time', or she's too emotional, or she's too weak, or she's too needy, or she doesn't contribute enough, or she's too involved in her self/personal life, or she gets the team in trouble? All of those impressions were reinforced by the Chimera / New Order / Affinity / Threads stories with Pete, dialogue about Pete, and interactions with Pete. The Pete character did no favors to Sam's character in providing the other half of her attempt to have a normal relationship (and to provide a story-arc impediment to the development of a relationship with Jack) - quite the contrary. And, to add injury to injury, Sam hasn't been allowed to grow from the experience, or even to learn anything from it in Season 9. TPTB-Continuum is 'finished' with the character of Sam, after all, so Sam's issues, including the Pete imbroglio in specific and life outside the Stargate program in general, will probably never be resolved, nor, one suspects, so much as addressed. In my opinion, that's reprehensible.

Sam is my favorite character on Stargate, and, frankly, I don't give a rat's rear end about poor widdle Petey's poor widdle self in comparison. He didn't fulfill Sam's needs, and he's not worth my time.

i know i've said this before, but i'm bored and the tv is in the livingroom (with the oscars on)...

spoilers for s7 and s8

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boyfriend for sam, as written by majoral.

pete shanahan. gym instructor. a regular guy. nice, good looking, sincere. (played by paul gross, from 'due south')

sam and pete meet at her gym. he'd asked her out before, but after 'grace', she accepts.

then they go out. they date. they're exclusive.

*then*, in 'threads', when sam's father is dying... pete tries to up the anti by asking her if he can move in with her (or visa versa). *then* is when sam stops the relationship, because not only doesn't she want to deal with this during her father situation, she doesn't want to get this serious with him when she's 'still' dealing with her feelings for jack o'neill.

pete wouldn't 'care' if sam worked for the military and couldn't tell him things. all he'd care about was going out with sam and enjoying their company together. no checking up on her, no following her around, no engagement. just a simple guy in an easy-going relationship. end of story.

it would have been handled in the background, basically, until it 'had' to be addressed because of the jack issue.

the only ppl i can see still being upset about it are s/j shippers (NO one for sam except jack! ) and the fans that don't like romance in stargate to begin with.

now how hard would that have been if someone like me (just a fan) could come up with a boyfriend-for-sam-that-doesn't-die-and-also-doesn't-diminish-sam-or-pete-or-the-storyline?




sally

[majorsal]

I don't like the Jack/Laira thing. Not so much because I don't like the character, but because I don't like the way the character was written. Jack supposedly had this relationship with her, yet it wasn't dealt with at all after the one episode, same with Sam and Jonas. I really have a bee in my bonnet about those sorts of things.

I mean... surely those relationships had some sort of lasting effect? Surely when Sam got engaged to Pete or when she was considering breaking up with Pete, she would have made some sort of subtle reference to the last engagement. It's like she'd never been engaged before. Grrrrrr.


Sorry, I seem to be in rant mode tonight.

i feel even more strongly about the sam/jack issue (surprised? ).

basically, if you bring it all down, sam meeting pete and breaking up with pete had to do with jack. so where's *that* storyline went?

the sam/jack thang is not the end all/be all of sam, but it IS important in her life. so what happened *after* 'threads'?....





sally

[majorsal]

Yeah, the writers made a huge mistake with Pete, but he's not a bad guy. I'm always very appreciative of fic writers who see that, because too many fics for my liking have him down as the evil-rapist-homicidal-maniac. I was actually asked if Pete was the rapist in my fic and I was shocked. It seems that if you are a shipper and write any sort of violent fic, Pete has to be the villain.

i haven't written fic in a while (and i would have ignored the sam/pete relationship anyways), but i'd hazard a quess that... it's just shippers trying to rationalize sam going out with another guy (instead of jack). make him evil or a jerk, and it explains away why sam and/or jack would even be involved with someone else to begin with (they were manipulated, see?)

i could be wrong, but it's something i might have done if i even bothered to accept he's alive to begin with.




sally

[Skydiver]

well, i mean this with NO OFFENSE AT ALL to anyone, but making pete a bad guy...it makes sm and jack easy. sam breaking up with a good guy...that's hard. sam breaking up with the wife beating b****** and is comforted/rescued by jack...that's easy

it's like in the early seasons why sara was often demonized by folks because it was easier to justify jack and sam if his first wife was a witch and a half

[Tracy Jane]

I know. But the whole point is that Pete was a good guy. It tore her up at times, the mixed emotions, we know that. Grrrrrr.

And I take back what I said about Trinkets not being overtly shippy. I'm now finding it incredibly shippy, which is a surprise, coming from you, Sky. But not an unpleasant one. It's been having me giggling all evening

[Skydiver]

lol

wait for it. it gets shippier

chapter 8 will get squeeing, chapter nine will send you running for your insulin

[ParadoxRealities]

well, i mean this with NO OFFENSE AT ALL to anyone, but making pete a bad guy...it makes sm and jack easy. sam breaking up with a good guy...that's hard. sam breaking up with the wife beating b****** and is comforted/rescued by jack...that's easy

it's like in the early seasons why sara was often demonized by folks because it was easier to justify jack and sam if his first wife was a witch and a half

you're right. personally, I love the fics that do a good job explaining the Sam/Pete/Jack relationship. But they are REALLY hard to write, especially for new and young writers. they're also usually incredably long. I don't mind reading wife beater and control freak stories simply becasue they're usually well written, they're short, and they're usually very shippy'n'sweet. it takes a big investment for the writer and the reader to get a good expreience from a good guy pete fic, and sometimes you just want a good shippy fic that makes you feel better about the fact that you never actually brought yourself to WATCH affinity. No one's saying Sam and Jack is the easy way out ( , sorry, series weak spot for me), just that they need an easy fic to write/read. (personally i have 2 huge series in the works, both long, one goodguy one REALLYbadguy. something tells me they'll be orders to post them incomplete in my will though.)