Announcement

**minigeek** · 22 January 2006, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by ChevronSeven

I thought that General Hammond would have at least listened to a good portion, if not all, of her explanation. Jack would've been Jack. But he would still listen.

But there were other points where he really was listening, too. Like the moment when they were all following him (Landry) through the corridor and Landry suddenly stops and says: "look people, I'm not about to have this place turn into the grand central station of the multiverse!" - that was right after Carter's debrief.

**golfbooy** · 22 January 2006, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Skydiver:
it may not be as much mocking as it is eye rolls and 'yeah yeah we know it's boring, but it's rude to shut her up, so just keep your mouth shut and let her finish' facial gestures and tones

daniel and cam especially have this little thing going a couple of times in RE.

which, in a grumpy mood, they want and expect sam to find the answers, but don't want her to explain the answers

For now I'm going to blame the preponderance of the "technobabble" joke in this episode on the writer's own feelings. That is, Joe Mallozzi has often stated that his proclivities often guide him towards humor rather than towards science. Coming up with the science behind an episode, no matter how far out that science might be, is something that Joe has often stated he loaths. I'm guessing that the ubiquitousness of the joke in this episode is more a representation of Joe's own personal feelings, rather than Daniel's or Landry's. Joe thinks that the technobabble explanations are exasperating and detract from the flow of his scenes, so in order to keep us dumb viewers interested he tries to get us to connect with Daniel and the others who just want easy answers. Then again, I'm not too sure about Landry. "On the ball" is not the first phrase that comes to mind when I think of his tenure at the SGC so far.

That said, I do think that Joe did do a great job with the science stuff in Ripple Effect. And I'm not sure I equate the joking looks about technobabble with a lack of respect or patience with Carter. I don't want to read too much into this; it's just the writers going for a cheap, none-too-original beat between the actors. Sometimes it's just more fitting than others.

**minigeek** · 22 January 2006, 06:49 PM

golfbooy - way to articulate. Exactly how I felt as well.

Originally posted by golfbooy

For now I'm going to blame the preponderance of the "technobabble" joke in this episode on the writer's own feelings. That is, Joe Mallozzi has often stated that his proclivities often guide him towards humor rather than towards science. Coming up with the science behind an episode, no matter how far out that science might be, is something that Joe has often stated he loaths. I'm guessing that the ubiquitousness of the joke in this episode is more a representation of Joe's own personal feelings, rather than Daniel's or Landry's. Joe thinks that the technobabble explanations are exasperating and detract from the flow of his scenes, so in order to keep us dumb viewers interested he tries to get us to connect with Daniel and the others who just want easy answers. Then again, I'm not too sure about Landry. "On the ball" is not the first phrase that comes to mind when I think of his tenure at the SGC so far.

That said, I do think that Joe did do a great job with the science stuff in Ripple Effect. And I'm not sure I equate the joking looks about technobabble with a lack of respect or patience with Carter. I don't want to read too much into this; it's just the writers going for a cheap, none-too-original beat between the actors. Sometimes it's just more fitting than others.

**DEM** · 22 January 2006, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by golfbooy

And I'm not sure I equate the joking looks about technobabble with a lack of respect or patience with Carter. I don't want to read too much into this; it's just the writers going for a cheap, none-too-original beat between the actors.

Yes, I agree that it's the writers going for the cheap and easy. However, I'm always worried -- for myself -- about tilting too far in either the "blame the writers" direction or the "an episode has independent existence apart from its creators" direction. What I mean is, at some point, a writer's shtick becomes 'real', becomes canon (even if open to interpretation): After how many episodes do I decide that it's not 'just a joke'?

That's what I'm struggling with -- not just with the Carter thing, but with all the other shticks the writers are relying on this season.

**Dani76** · 22 January 2006, 07:23 PM

I agree with mini and golfbooy on this one. I wouldn't interpret too much into it. It fit the overall mood of the episode and I liked Sam's reaction to it. When it happened earlier this season (was it Landry, too?) it annoyed me much more. But I also agree that it shouldn't be used too much. Sam deserves respect for her opinions and solutions she finds to problems. It almost seems as if Landry isn't as patient with this stuff, maybe he hates to admit that he doesn't understand it.

And he also shuts Daniel up quite often when he voices his concerns.

What I do have a problem with though is when Daniel reacts like that. I always liked the relationship he and Sam had, and how they each respected the other's accomplishments and showed interest for each other's field of expertise. I am missing that a lot this season. Teal'c's interactions with Sam and Daniel and his showing of support were always much more subtle because that's just the way he is. Sam and Daniel on the other hand always had this special bond thing going, and it's not there that much anymore. There was a bit of it this season, for example in BH when Daniel said how glad he was that Sam was back, even if it was just temporarily or in EDM when he helped her with her boxes. Sometimes they still exchange looks with each other, but I wonder if that is something AT and MS are doing because there isn't much Daniel/Sam bonding in the scripts anymore.

It is moments like this that I miss a lot, and maybe that's one of the reasons why I feel that there is no real team-spirit developing this season.

**Mandysg1** · 22 January 2006, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by DEM

That's what I'm struggling with -- not just with the Carter thing, but with all the other shticks the writers are relying on this season.

Oh is that what you call what they are doing Shtick, I thought it was sh***

**ForeverSg1** · 22 January 2006, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by DEM

Yeah, and there was also Landry's snippy line in the final Act. The exchange went something like:

Landry: Col Carter [report].
Carter: Sir, here is what we're doing: Science, Tech, Sci--
Landry, Daniel, and Mitchell exchange looks.
Landry: Yeah, yeah, Blah.

As I grumbled about elsewhere: At this point in the show, people who can't handle technical information shouldn't ask for or be assigned to a command posting in what is, in large part, a space station. This has been going on all season and RE was the most extreme, IMO.

Yeah, I believe this is the exact quote...

Spoiler:

I know this is all about perception. There are many episodes where I have read that people thought Sam was being disrespectful or uncaring towards Daniel where I viewed the scene entirely different. So, in that respect, this is just my interpretation of what happened and doesn't make it the correct point of view. However, as I stated before, I can understand Mitchell and Landry behaving this way, they are new and still learning how to deal with Sam and the other members of SG1.

This does not mean I enjoy the fact that Landry seems to do this a great deal of the time: cutting both Sam and Daniel short and asking them to get to the point. It makes it seem as if what they are saying has nothing to do with the subject whereas the truth is he's just not capable of keeping up with what they are saying. I may not like it, but I am willing to tolerate his behavior.

The difference is I just don't expect Daniel to behave this way. I don't recall him ever behaving this way in previous seasons. Perhaps someone else can offer some examples where Daniel has behaved like this previously, but to my knowledge it's only been recently that he seems to show little or no interest in what other people are saying at times. I noticed this when Vala was around in the earlier episodes. I just assumed she was annoying him and he was tuning her out, but it appears to have become a regular trait of his. Maybe the writers are trying to have Daniel fill in for Jack in this respect, seeing as he was always telling Sam to give him short or dumbed down version, but it just seems out of character for Daniel and it's not an aspect I'm enjoying at the moment.

The occassionally joking I can understand, and I did enjoy much of the bantering in Ripple Effect, but on a regular basis it comes across more like a group of children teasing the smart kid in school simply because they don't understand what is being said. One would expect this type of behaviour from a bunch of twelve year olds, not grown men.

Kat

**Lightsabre** · 22 January 2006, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by ForeverSg1

Yeah, I believe this is the exact quote...

Spoiler:

I know this is all about perception. There are many episodes where I have read that people thought Sam was being disrespectful or uncaring towards Daniel where I viewed the scene entirely different. So, in that respect, this is just my interpretation of what happened and doesn't make it the correct point of view. However, as I stated before, I can understand Mitchell and Landry behaving this way, they are new and still learning how to deal with Sam and the other members of SG1.

This does not mean I enjoy the fact that Landry seems to do this a great deal of the time: cutting both Sam and Daniel short and asking them to get to the point. It makes it seem as if what they are saying has nothing to do with the subject whereas the truth is he's just not capable of keeping up with what they are saying. I may not like it, but I am willing to tolerate his behavior.

The difference is I just don't expect Daniel to behave this way. I don't recall him ever behaving this way in previous seasons. Perhaps someone else can offer some examples where Daniel has behaved like this previously, but to my knowledge it's only been recently that he seems to show little or no interest in what other people are saying at times. I noticed this when Vala was around in the earlier episodes. I just assumed she was annoying him and he was tuning her out, but it appears to have become a regular trait of his. Maybe the writers are trying to have Daniel fill in for Jack in this respect, seeing as he was always telling Sam to give him short or dumbed down version, but it just seems out of character for Daniel and it's not an aspect I'm enjoying at the moment.

The occassionally joking I can understand, and I did enjoy much of the bantering in Ripple Effect, but on a regular basis it comes across more like a group of children teasing the smart kid in school simply because they don't understand what is being said. One would expect this type of behaviour from a bunch of twelve year olds, not grown men.

Kat

But this has happened ad nauseum through the series.
Hammond and Jack have both cut Carter off and ordered her to get to the point on numerous occasions.
I saw this as simply more of the same.
They wouldn't understand the explanation and they didn't need it, so as soon as they thought they had an understanding, they asked her to stop.
No discourtesy there.
You have to keep in mind Sam is one of the top astrophysists in the world.
Not many people can keep up with her.

**golfbooy** · 22 January 2006, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by DEM

Yes, I agree that it's the writers going for the cheap and easy. However, I'm always worried -- for myself -- about tilting too far in either the "blame the writers" direction or the "an episode has independent existence apart from its creators" direction. What I mean is, at some point, a writer's shtick becomes 'real', becomes canon (even if open to interpretation). After how many episodes do I decide that it's not 'just a joke'?

That's what I'm struggling with -- not just with the Carter thing, but with all the other shticks the writers are relying on this season.

I understand where you're coming from with this. And you're right. Canon does evolve and, with any luck, characters do change. Personally, for me, I've been watching these characters for eight years now. Well, I've been watching Carter, Daniel, and Teal'c, anyway. And I like to think that I've got a good enough handle on the characters to be able to judge whether or not they're acting "in character". I certainly feel as if I've got them down as much as any single fan can have them down. I appreciate character growth and recognize it, but also find moments when I think that the characters are just being written wrong or out of character. That's part of the problem I've had with earlier episodes of season nine. I feel like the characters' integrity was sacrificed a little too much in order to service the new, exciting stories and characters of New Stargate.

So, the "schticks" that the writers are relying on this season are, as far as I'm concerned, much more detrimental to the new characters than they are to the old ones. I've seen Daniel be impatient and impetuous, I've seen Carter get lost in technobabble, and I've seen Teal'c's delicious (at least to me) sense of humor. And I base everything that they do on my past experiences with the characters. I have done so for quite a while now, ever since I became invested in the characters. I have no such experience with the new characters. So, everything that Mitchell, Landry, and Lam do right now is greatly influencing my opinions regarding who they are. Whereas I can dismiss Daniel rolling his eyes over Sam's technobabble because I know that he repsects and cares for her, I find Landry's easy dismissal of pertinent facts a bit less forgivable. Similarly, Mitchell's flat, misplaced, and often juvenile humor is really detracting from my enjoyment of his character. Sure, Jack would make jokes and off the cuff remarks, but that humor was always balanced out with a serious, and often commentative undertone. When Jack made a wise-crack about the Tok'ra or his mistrust of the Aschen, Jack was doing more than making a joke. That was his way of expressing his concerns about a group of people or the proposed course of action. I find Mitchell's humor to just be joking for the sake of joking. It's not topical, there's no underlying subtext, it's just there to show that Mitchell can be funny too, damn it.

To keep this post somewhat on topic, I'll just comment that the main thing I've been missing this season, humor-wise, is the cynicism that Richard Dean Anderson brought to the show. I liked Ripple Effect so much because I thought there was a bit of a similar underlying cynicism and exasperation with others that Amanda Tapping exhibited here. Sam's been through so many of these types of situations that her comfort in dealing with them seems to be bleeding into a cynical weariness when it comes to dealing with others. She's not being mean per se, but she is behaving as if she knows she's better qualified to deal with it all. And eight years in, that is exactly where the character should be. It's where Jack was when the show started. For me, that's character growth.

**ForeverSg1** · 22 January 2006, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Lightsabre

But this has happened ad nauseum through the series.
Hammond and Jack have both cut Carter off and ordered her to get to the point on numerous occasions.
I saw this as simply more of the same.
They wouldn't understand the explanation and they didn't need it, so as soon as they thought they had an understanding, they asked her to stop.
No discourtesy there.
You have to keep in mind Sam is one of the top astrophysists in the world.
Not many people can keep up with her.

Yes, and as I said, I expect Mitchell and Landry to behave this way, but give me an example when Daniel ever acted this way.

Actually it may not be a good idea to continue this discussion on this thread seeing as it really does not pertain to Sam. My apologies for bringing up the subject. Needless to say, there are things about each of the characters I'm having difficulties with this season.

**minigeek** · 22 January 2006, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by ForeverSg1

Maybe the writers are trying to have Daniel fill in for Jack in this respect, seeing as he was always telling Sam to give him short or dumbed down version, but it just seems out of character for Daniel and it's not an aspect I'm enjoying at the moment.

The occassionally joking I can understand, and I did enjoy much of the bantering in Ripple Effect, but on a regular basis it comes across more like a group of children teasing the smart kid in school simply because they don't understand what is being said. One would expect this type of behaviour from a bunch of twelve year olds, not grown men.

Kat, I think that's exactly it, they used to give those kinds of lines to Jack, and he carried them off with a dry wit that suited his character (and the interaction he had with Carter). It was never disrespectful, in that way. Since season nine began, I've felt they were handing off "Jack-lines" to both Cameron and Daniel fairly free-handedly; almost as though they don't know how to write the show without the Jack-element in it anymore (and lets face it, the Jack-element was a really big part of what made the show great for a lot of years, that understated humor and the casual (if sarcastic) wit and reapport he always had with his teammates). I suppose I didn't take umbrage with seeing it there again because I've just about given up harping on that point - I don't think it'll ever stop because I think the writers will continue to write for Jack, usng Cameron and Daniel regardless. Because (much as I hate to say this), I don't think they know how to make either of those characters strong enough on their own to carry the show. Jack was more than a character; he was the voice of reason at times; the voice of simple logic; the wit/humor of the team. Rather than making Cameron into a brand new voice, I think they're trying too hard to give him lines Jack would have had. And the same goes for Daniel. They're floundering with those kinds of little dialogue slip-ups. So much so I hardly blink anymore when I see them in season nine. Pretty much ignore the slip ups actually, because well... they ain't goin' no where. So to speak.

**DEM** · 22 January 2006, 07:58 PM

Okay, so reading the latest replies, I'm thinking I have a better understanding of what's bugging me: It's the addition of Daniel to the eye-rolling brigade. Now, I'm not sure I understand what's going with Daniel these days, but that's almost irrelevant. When the majority of the people are eye-rolling and they're behaving that way frequently, the most parsimonious explanation is that the rollee is the 'cause'. Yes, I could make up different explanations for each individual who does Behaviour X, but in my way of thinking, the 'one cause' theory must be attended to. So, uh, that's all.

Oh, and yes:

Originally posted by golfbooy

So, the "schticks" that the writers are relying on this season are, as far as I'm concerned, much more detrimental to the new characters than they are to the old ones.

Hammond and O'Neill earned the right; Landry and Mitchell have not.

I also know that 'putdown' humour is not really my cup of tea; never has been. Combine that with being somewhat science-nerdy myself, it's hard for me to relate to a "yeesh, you're tiresome" response to Carter's explanations. :shrug: So, yeah, partly it's a personal problem.

**ForeverSg1** · 22 January 2006, 08:00 PM

Ok... to get myself out of my rut here's another quote to guess.

What episode did this come from?

Daniel: I'll miss Carter.

**DEM** · 22 January 2006, 08:02 PM

OH! Forever in a Day!

**golfbooy** · 22 January 2006, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by minigeek

(snip)
Jack was more than a character; he was the voice of reason at times; the voice of simple logic; the wit/humor of the team. Rather than making Cameron into a brand new voice, I think they're trying too hard to give him lines Jack would have had. And the same goes for Daniel. They're floundering with those kinds of little dialogue slip-ups. So much so I hardly blink anymore when I see them in season nine. Pretty much ignore the slip ups actually, because well... they ain't goin' no where. So to speak.

This is exactly what I was trying to say above. Jack was never just the character who made jokes. When I read people referring to him as "Dumb Jack" I want to smack the monitor in front of me. Jack (and RDA) was always the voice of the show. Stargate as a TV show (at least in the past) often times spoke it's own voice. The characters were players in the story, but the story also had something to say. Jack was the writer's voice on the show, their vehicle for telling the audience how to feel about a situation or how they TPTB felt about an issue. With him gone, they are definitely looking for someone else to be that voice. The Jack O'neill character had the inherent ability to float between each of the other character's roles, taking that voice with him. They're struggling to insert it now, which is why that "Stargate feel" has been missing.

Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c have all alternately assumed more of this voice in seasons seven and eight as RDA's time has dwindled. That's why adding Cameron to the mix this year has seemingly made all of the other characters so much simpler by comparison. The problem is that I don't think his character has evolved to a point where he can convey that "voice", hence so many people's problem with him. Or something like that.

Originally Posted by Forever Sg-1
What episode did this come from?

Oh, and it's Forever and a Day.

Announcement

Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment