Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[ann_sgcfan]

Great analysis of Gemini Golfbooy! Maybe you can post that on the other thread if that debate starts up again.

I'll add some of my quick thoughts as well. I also liked Gemini!

Spoiler:

Do I think Carter made a mistake? Yes one they have all made. And I don't see all the negativity towards it or the crys about how Sam's character was destroyed in that episode (I just don't see it)!! I think she was dubbed by the one person who knew her well enough to trick her. RC used Sam's memories, thoughts, and fears against her. What better villain than a Sam gone bad! More powerful than the Goa'uld with an army at her beckon call. It also hinted at Sam's dark side, one that thrives on power and uses her genius brain to essentially take over the galaxy. It would have been awesome to pursue that avenue for more than two episodes. A chess game if you will between matching opponents that are exceptional players. Sam out smarting RC, only to have RC out smart Sam. Back and forth until … check-mate.

Here is another thought. If they had used the Asgard Satellite before RC finished. Then the Asgard & Earth would have set out and destroyed all the replicators, which is great and a goal the Asgard have been trying to accomplish as long as SG-1 has been battling the Goa'uld. However, it would not have eliminated the Goa'uld. That particular battle would still be raging on, and the Asgard would not be able to help because of their treaty with them. TPTB were essentially trying to close all the story arcs with the SGC and their allies becoming victorious. Therefore the Replicators destroyed the Goa’uld and then SGC destroyed the Replicators. Gemini was just setting the scene for the finally battle. IMO.

[Simhavaktra]

Thanks, Simhavaktra ... a worthy title ...

or "He Who Laughs ... Lasts"

Hmm, anyone else want to "rename the Bedtime Story"?! Feel free - I'm easy! (Oops, not that kind of easy!)

I'll check in tomorrow to see what my options are! Good night!

Oh, no, no! I don't presume to rename other people's work! No!

It was just a suggestion, and, one that - as already seen - bears improvement.

And "easy" is not the word for zooming around the rough roads of Penn's Woods on a chopper, nor the women who do it, even virtually. I know better than to mess with anyone who can do that.

[majorsal]

spoilers for s8's gemini

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You know I didn't even have a problem with her idea of bringing RC back to earth. Because remember at that time, Fifth was still on the way to the Alpha site and they hadn't finished protecting themselves against the threat he posed. They needed to ensure that Fifth hadn't found a way around the cipher. They've had enemies on the base before if you will recall for all sorts of purposes. So Sam saw this as yet another time when they'd have to have a foe on the base short term to ensure their safety long term again with the ultimate understanding that when RC had finished being useful, she would be killed.

thanks, mb. that's actually making me not feel so ambivalent about that one aspect of the ep.


sally

[golfbooy]

Originally Posted by Skydiver:
on the 48 hours story

my favorite angsty part...the look on sam's face in the briefing room, when they're dialing the gate and she knows that teal'c will get erased and there's nothing she can do

I haven't had time to sit down and watch the episode again yet either, but I figured I'd mention a couple of my favorite parts. For me, Sam's best scene is actually the one in the beginning where she's in the control room and Jack comes and talks to her. The dialogue is great between them and you can just see how comfortable both Rick and Amanda are at playing their characters. Sam is completely buggered by the situation. She has to come across as the most despairing of all because she's the one who knows just how freakishly screwed up the situation actually is. And Amanda Tapping pulls it off great; Sam looks focused, but depressed. She's angry and frustrated. So is Jack, in his own way. He's exasperated by the events that have taken place. All he can do is do nothing. And there's nothing O'neill hates more than doing nothing.

As for Sam in the rest of the episode, she's stuck mostly with Mckay. And, for me, this is Mckay's absolute best episode. I find the toned down version on Atlantis rather tedious, but that's for another discussion. Anyway, snarky Sam is terrific to see. Sam always has the ability to compeletly ream out most of the show's antagonists; it's nice to see her do it so freely with an arrogant nobody like Mckay.

Couple all this with the terrific O'neill/Maybourne dynamic, and the episode is a winner. I've always loved episodes where there's trouble with the gate--

Spoiler:

bring on Ripple Effect

.

Oh, and Teal'c gets his revenge. We can't forget that.

[Traveler Enroute1]

that is a very good point.
gemini

Spoiler:

<<my snip>>
sam is very trusting. she tends to see the best in people. and she's a genuinely good person, so when something that was created in her image appears, of course she is going to trust it when it shows her that the guy who tortured her, also tortured the doppelganger.
<<snip>>
sam learned her lesson in this, and i think that it strengthened her. i think it was an important bit of character development for her.

I recall making this point on *cough* another forum. I do not see Sam as intrinsically trusting, but with all her accomplishments, I feel she trusts her professional self. Esp. when she's encountered Sam in various forms, such as Tin Man, Point of View and Double Jeapordy before meeting RepliCarter. The earlier versions of herself were just like she was: Lightsiders, dedicated, trustworthy, etc. She was able to work with her doubles as an extension/reflection of herself and her abilities. ("The combined IQ of earth just doubled." paraphrase O'Neill in Point of View)

Spoiler:

I, too, thought it was reasonable for Sam to initially trust RC, since Fifth would have made it from her mind, and with his, eh, love.

My fault for Sam in Gemini was not trusting her teammates. Teal'c and Jack urged her to stand back from the situation a little, but Sam didn't or couldn't suspect RC. Letting RC into her mind was also a stretch to me. It certainly could be that Fifth picked up that dark side in Sam: the anger, hurt, passion, expert warrior part that her morality keeps in check, and knowingly or unknowingly reproduced it. RepliCarter certainly recognized betrayal as a tool, as in Sam leaving Fifth at the mercy of the time dilation device. NEVER would I regard Sam as lacking in smarts or sense; geniuses have a will to do things their way and Sam's way usually worked. She failed as only a genius could: spectacularly. OK by me, and consistent with the way the series has been written.

all part of a characters development for a particular arc, for a particular element to that character. same goes for gemini. it was all part of an arc, of development for sams character, just as the sarah gardner thing was for daniel or the acension thing. just as the imhotep thing was for teal'c, just as kanan thing was for jack.

and well done to anybody who managed to make it through the above nonsensical rant! i offer you cookies, cake, pie and jello's*.
*colour of jello not guaranteed

Rants are good here. More fun to analyze. Oh, and love raspberry jello.

Spoiler:

And I agree that Sam's character could take a turn, deepen, etc from this arc. I enjoyed twice as much Sam on screen!

(NOTE TO SELF: Write faster - don't get distracted when composing a reply! LOTS of new stuff gets written first! . Just noting that new posts on the topic appeared when I had to leave the boards. Forgive any repetition, please.)

Just sayin'.

[sg-1fanintn]

Ok, recent events on a few threads have bamboozled me into posting my own diatribe about Gemini. Pathetic, I know. I am such a sucker.

And an excellent diatribe it was too (as usual). I never saw Gemini the way so many others did either. My opinion of the ep is almost identical to yours. But as we've pointed out so many times, some people are just determined to find fault with her, no matter what she does!

[LadyJeep]

ChopinGal, just loved the Samandan Bedtime Story. I couldn't green you, either.

[majorsal]

All that said... We all know that the character gets a lot of crap for various issues that have already been expressed and disputed here. So, my question is this: Why would they have her make such a huge - albeit understandable - mistake, when she already gets criticized?

because this is the basic mindset (to me).

i'm going to use a fictitious character named benno. when benno makes a mistake, the fans that aren't that thrilled with him don't make much of a fuss. when sam makes a mistake, her anti fans come out to trash her. and that basically *is* how i've seen this fandom work. and it applies to even the actors/actresses playing the specific characters. the do-no-wrong is turned around and against the do-no-right. suffice it to say, sam will NEVER do right and will always be a screw up. she's either too much this or not enough that. and the loud mouths of fandom just happen to be the anti sam fans. even though benno has flaws too, his anti fans don't go on witch hunts everytime he screws up. can't say the same about the anti sam fans.


sally

[Strix varia]

So... resurrecting one of my old posts about Gemini with a few modifications:

Spoiler:

I think the divergence of opinion about episode stems from a fundamentally different interpretation of the nature of replicators (and perhaps humanity, as well…given natural tendencies towards realism or idealism).

The actions of Carter, Teal’c, and Jack would appear stupid and out of character if the assumption is that replicators are evil (and I don’t necessarily mean that in a philosophical or moral sense, but in the sense that their main goal is to replicate themselves with no consideration of anything else), capable of doing nothing but evil (again, in the sense that they can do nothing but destroy), and have no hope for redemption (thereby making Replicarter's story "far-fetched" and totally unbelievable). If that is the basic assumption, then yes, obviously they never should have trusted Replicarter, and they should have blown her away at the first opportunity.

I’m not going to say that this interpretation is wrong, because I can see how a legitimate argument could be made for it. It’s a fairly safe assumption that Replicarter was up to no good, and the safest option available to them, obviously, was to destroy her without question. In a realistic risk/benefit assessment, the risks of trusting her (even a little) could arguably have outweighed the potential benefits.

However, I think there is an equally valid argument that the safe route was not necessarily the most ethically or philosophically correct route, or at least not at the point when Replicarter initially contacted them. Let’s assume for a moment that Carter, Teal’c, and Jack did not have access to spoilers telling them that Carter’s emotions would put the entire Earth in danger. There is one key element that I feel justifies their actions:

They don’t know for certain that the humanoid replicators like Fifth are capable of nothing but evil and have no hope for redemption. I did not find her story to be entirely far-fetched, and here is why:

Fifth was flawed. And that flaw made him more human than the others. That was made very clear in Unnatural Selection. At the end of Unnatural Selection, Jack forced Carter to use Fifth’s humanity against him. Emphasis on Fifth’s humanity and his emotional responses were reinforced in New Order when they showed his rage at being betrayed (as well as his love for Carter, twisted though it was). For all SG-1 knew at the beginning of Gemini, that flaw, that element of humanity, had been passed on to Replicarter. I don’t think it’s a huge leap in logic to allow for the possibility that Fifth created Replicarter in his own flawed image. Given that Replicarter also claimed to have been given Carter’s memories and emotions, I believe it even strengthened the argument that here was a replicator that could have been even more “human” (or “flawed”) than Fifth.

So, we have a question about the best course of action to take when presented by Replicarter. Do you take the safe route, and destroy? Or do you take the dangerous route, based on potentialities... the potential for intel, (much like they took the risk of bringing Apophis back to Earth in order to get intel)? (Or a slightly different route, with someone other than Carter assigned to the mission, but still trying to get info out of Replicarter.) The latter options both have some risk associated with them, but they allow for the possibility that Replicarter is flawed... and therefore maybe she has human emotions...that perhaps she is telling the truth; perhaps she can help them in battle against Fifth and the other replicators; perhaps she can be trusted, and perhaps she can be redeemed….

Yes, there are a lot of perhapses there. But I freely admit to being a potentiality kind of person, muck like Daniel. In my opinion, what Jack ordered Sam to do in Unnatural Selection was ethically wrong. Safe, yes. Smart, maybe. But I don’t believe that smart and safe always equate to “right” in the grand scheme of good vs. evil. My na&#239;ve, innocent, optimistic view of the universe is that we should give people a chance to prove themselves, even when there is risk involved. As Sam says in The Forsaken, "...It’s the only way you make new friends. Take a chance on someone and hope they don’t make you regret it."

Teal’c was their enemy in the beginning (trusted on nothing more than "O'Neill's intuition"... and why should that be any more valid than "women's intuition," I wonder... ) and there was risk in trusting him, too, and yet he proved himself a valuable ally. If given a chance, perhaps Fifth would have been, as well. If given a chance, perhaps Replicarter could have been too. That's the chance they gave her. So, it turned out that Fifth learned his lesson of betrayal a little too well, and Jack's mistake in ordering Carter to betray him came back and bit them... Sometimes you take a chance and it backfires. But that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't the "right" thing to do.

Blowing away Replicarter without giving her a chance would have been safe (and risk free). But I still maintain that it also would have been ethically questionable given that they had no idea where she stood on the sliding replicator scale of human-like flaws. They did not know if Replicarter was good or evil. Her creator was flawed; she could have been flawed, too. She could have been a tremendous help to them.

The problem with “shoot first, ask questions later” is that you don’t actually get to ask questions after you’ve killed or destroyed someone. And it’s not a good way to make friends. One could just as legitimately argue that destroying Replicarter right off the bat would have been a terrible waste of an opportunity for interrogation and an expression of extreme paranoia. I am very thankful that SG-1 does not usually operate under the “shoot first” philosophy. Where would be the fun in blowing up every alien they encounter?

[majorsal]

Uber (sorry can't do that colon thingy at work) - I think you should listen to mini - just walk away. Don't go there. It's a scary neighborhood and you should just stay the frell out of it. It's better that they eat their own and not one of ours.

btw, some of you might notice that I play here far more frequently than I do at any of the Vala threads. You lot are much more fun and friendly. That and I refuse to go to the Sony forums. Just say no to negative.

see, when i talk to such an open minded and curtious fan, it helps to bring out my non-defensive thoughts on a matter.

i'd love to see some sam-vala interaction. and since sam's a woman (and one that had been through a similar experience with her jolinar thinger), the sexual side of vala would be pulled back and we'd just get to see the *real* person behind the makeup. i could see sam bringing out that serious side of vala because they have a HUGE thing in common. a huge thing that literally destroyed both. and changed both permanently. now *that's* something interesting to see!


sally

[majorsal]

Okay, so this is OT, but I also loved Xena & hated the last episode.

it was *so* horrible that i turned me off the show... still. i don't even want to watch the early eps, because why bother, you know?

BUT, there's super potential for a new movie to fix the crap that happened!

[/OT]


sally

[majorsal]

I'm 5'-2 1/2''.

amanda's 5'-8 3/4''.

i'm not.



i'm 5'-3 1/2.



sally

[golfbooy]

So... resurrecting one of my old posts about Gemini with a few modifications:

Spoiler:

I think the divergence of opinion about episode stems from a fundamentally different interpretation of the nature of replicators (and perhaps humanity, as well…given natural tendencies towards realism or idealism).

The actions of Carter, Teal’c, and Jack would appear stupid and out of character if the assumption is that replicators are evil (and I don’t necessarily mean that in a philosophical or moral sense, but in the sense that their main goal is to replicate themselves with no consideration of anything else), capable of doing nothing but evil (again, in the sense that they can do nothing but destroy), and have no hope for redemption (thereby making Replicarter's story "far-fetched" and totally unbelievable). If that is the basic assumption, then yes, obviously they never should have trusted Replicarter, and they should have blown her away at the first opportunity.

I’m not going to say that this interpretation is wrong, because I can see how a legitimate argument could be made for it. It’s a fairly safe assumption that Replicarter was up to no good, and the safest option available to them, obviously, was to destroy her without question. In a realistic risk/benefit assessment, the risks of trusting her (even a little) could arguably have outweighed the potential benefits.

However, I think there is an equally valid argument that the safe route was not necessarily the most ethically or philosophically correct route, or at least not at the point when Replicarter initially contacted them. Let’s assume for a moment that Carter, Teal’c, and Jack did not have access to spoilers telling them that Carter’s emotions would put the entire Earth in danger. There is one key element that I feel justifies their actions:

They don’t know for certain that the humanoid replicators like Fifth are capable of nothing but evil and have no hope for redemption. I did not find her story to be entirely far-fetched, and here is why:

Fifth was flawed. And that flaw made him more human than the others. That was made very clear in Unnatural Selection. At the end of Unnatural Selection, Jack forced Carter to use Fifth’s humanity against him. Emphasis on Fifth’s humanity and his emotional responses were reinforced in New Order when they showed his rage at being betrayed (as well as his love for Carter, twisted though it was). For all SG-1 knew at the beginning of Gemini, that flaw, that element of humanity, had been passed on to Replicarter. I don’t think it’s a huge leap in logic to allow for the possibility that Fifth created Replicarter in his own flawed image. Given that Replicarter also claimed to have been given Carter’s memories and emotions, I believe it even strengthened the argument that here was a replicator that could have been even more “human” (or “flawed”) than Fifth.

So, we have a question about the best course of action to take when presented by Replicarter. Do you take the safe route, and destroy? Or do you take the dangerous route, based on potentialities... the potential for intel, (much like they took the risk of bringing Apophis back to Earth in order to get intel)? (Or a slightly different route, with someone other than Carter assigned to the mission, but still trying to get info out of Replicarter.) The latter options both have some risk associated with them, but they allow for the possibility that Replicarter is flawed... and therefore maybe she has human emotions...that perhaps she is telling the truth; perhaps she can help them in battle against Fifth and the other replicators; perhaps she can be trusted, and perhaps she can be redeemed….

Yes, there are a lot of perhapses there. But I freely admit to being a potentiality kind of person, muck like Daniel. In my opinion, what Jack ordered Sam to do in Unnatural Selection was ethically wrong. Safe, yes. Smart, maybe. But I don’t believe that smart and safe always equate to “right” in the grand scheme of good vs. evil. My naïve, innocent, optimistic view of the universe is that we should give people a chance to prove themselves, even when there is risk involved. As Sam says in The Forsaken, "...It’s the only way you make new friends. Take a chance on someone and hope they don’t make you regret it."

Teal’c was their enemy in the beginning (trusted on nothing more than "O'Neill's intuition"... and why should that be any more valid than "women's intuition," I wonder... ) and there was risk in trusting him, too, and yet he proved himself a valuable ally. If given a chance, perhaps Fifth would have been, as well. If given a chance, perhaps Replicarter could have been too. That's the chance they gave her. So, it turned out that Fifth learned his lesson of betrayal a little too well, and Jack's mistake in ordering Carter to betray him came back and bit them... Sometimes you take a chance and it backfires. But that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't the "right" thing to do.

Blowing away Replicarter without giving her a chance would have been safe (and risk free). But I still maintain that it also would have been ethically questionable given that they had no idea where she stood on the sliding replicator scale of human-like flaws. They did not know if Replicarter was good or evil. Her creator was flawed; she could have been flawed, too. She could have been a tremendous help to them.

The problem with “shoot first, ask questions later” is that you don’t actually get to ask questions after you’ve killed or destroyed someone. And it’s not a good way to make friends. One could just as legitimately argue that destroying Replicarter right off the bat would have been a terrible waste of an opportunity for interrogation and an expression of extreme paranoia. I am very thankful that SG-1 does not usually operate under the “shoot first” philosophy. Where would be the fun in blowing up every alien they encounter?

Spoiler:

You're absolutely right, Fifth changes everything. Or, to perhaps be more precise, Reese changed everything for the replicators. Once the writers decided that the replicators weren't necessarily or inherently evil, the destroy all replicators approach to fighting them became morally questionable at best, fundamentally wrong at worst. Replicarter could have been not evil. In fact, following her introduction at the end of New Order, where she appears shocked, unsure, overwhelmed, and a little scared only to be comforted by Fifth, the impression I think TPTB were going for WAS that same unsullied innocence that Fifth had before SG-1 betrayed him. In that regard, maybe Replicarter in Gemini is a bit of a bait and switch. If anything, I still say that the asides with her and Fifth in Gemini should have been left out or been constructed in a way that would have kept Replicarter's true intentions ambiguous for the viewers. Pulling back the curtain for us, but not for SG-1 and Sam, is the root of everyone's dissatisfaction with her actions here. The problem is that a lot of viewers come away from Gemini feeling smarter, superior, and more capable than the characters, because they've had more information about what was going on in the story. Not to mention those damn spoilers that many can't avoid.

[tara3583]

amanda's 5'-8 3/4''.

i'm not.



i'm 5'-3 1/2.



sally

I'm 5`-3, i used to be 5`-3 1/2 but somone must have stuffed me in the washing machine when i was'nt looking and shrunk me! Or most likely age does some really nasty things to you!

[majorsal]

Great analysis of Gemini Golfbooy! Maybe you can post that on the other thread if that debate starts up again.

I'll add some of my quick thoughts as well. I also liked Gemini!

Spoiler:

Do I think Carter made a mistake? Yes one they have all made. And I don't see all the negativity towards it or the crys about how Sam's character was destroyed in that episode (I just don't see it)!! I think she was dubbed by the one person who knew her well enough to trick her. RC used Sam's memories, thoughts, and fears against her. What better villain than a Sam gone bad! More powerful than the Goa'uld with an army at her beckon call. It also hinted at Sam's dark side, one that thrives on power and uses her genius brain to essentially take over the galaxy. It would have been awesome to pursue that avenue for more than two episodes. A chess game if you will between matching opponents that are exceptional players. Sam out smarting RC, only to have RC out smart Sam. Back and forth until … check-mate.

Here is another thought. If they had used the Asgard Satellite before RC finished. Then the Asgard & Earth would have set out and destroyed all the replicators, which is great and a goal the Asgard have been trying to accomplish as long as SG-1 has been battling the Goa'uld. However, it would not have eliminated the Goa'uld. That particular battle would still be raging on, and the Asgard would not be able to help because of their treaty with them. TPTB were essentially trying to close all the story arcs with the SGC and their allies becoming victorious. Therefore the Replicators destroyed the Goa’uld and then SGC destroyed the Replicators. Gemini was just setting the scene for the finally battle. IMO.

good post, ann.

you brought up something that i find very interesting...

Spoiler:

you said that gemini 'hinted at Sam's dark side, one that thrives on power and uses her genius brain to essentially take over the galaxy.' for me, i don't see it really that way. i think the replicarter side of this being is what was bad. i also think that fifth 'really' did do to her what RC showed sam, and that that also helped to darken this being. but i'm not sure i see it as a side of sam's psyche...

what about others?

sally