Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[majorsal]

spoilers for s7's chimera and s8's affinity

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Enter Pete...but it could have been the mailman for all she cared. She wanted that "life" that so eluded her, and Pete was as good enough as any. I love your insight here, Sky, because lots of people fuss about how she responded to Pete's "stalking" of her, or rather how she didn't respond. I myself was not thrilled with her less than enthusiastic response to his sticking his nose where it didn't belong. BUT when considering the bigger picture, Sam as you point out was focused on the "having a life with someone" thing so much that she pounded that square peg into position, red flags be darned. Again, fortunately, she came to her senses.

do you see how *we're* putting together the reasons and why fors in the sam/pete relay? the show never even thought of acknowledging what pete did to sam. if the reason they had sam accept pete's behavior was to show us that sam had troubles standing up for herself in relays (and i could believe this because of jonas hanson), then i could understand this happening and wait to see the fallout. but it never happened. the whole following her around/checking up on her was almost like a red herring. (they didn't say don't notice the elephant, they said what elephant) why bring it up if you're not going to follow up with the consequences? i still have a hard time believing that this script went from one person to another *before* it was filmed, and no one questioned why pete did this and why sam didn't respond (i feel the same way about the fragile balance script too). and it can't be just a guy writer thing either, because amanda didn't question it either. and it wasn't 'just' shippers questioning it, so what happened? where did the signals get crossed and why didn't the show bring the subject up? and pete's line about sam staying with him even though he stalked her (not exact line from s8's affinity) was a throw away line that had as much depth as a puddle.

btw, the *only* person from the show that i've ever heard from that said it was wrong what pete did was david deluise (pete). interesting, eh?

wow, i'm in the mood to babble today.



sally

[Skydiver]

mmhm, that's odd. i found my walls there and my icons but my fic didn't make it

very odd

oh well, no biggie

i'll got some new fic to read, so that's what counts

[majorsal]

Just to know that our collection
Seems to have arrived at its destination
The book delivered to the Studio's door
The week of our fair Queen's birth du jour

Perfect timing, don't you think?
With that, I'll flee and give a wink!

Jester

*wonderful* poem, chopingal! (as always)

and that the collection arrived, and on the week of amanda's birthday... YES!!! i hope to hear of amanda's reaction some day...



sally


ps - where the hayhoo is astro? come home, astro!!

[chocdoc]

Hear Ye Hear Ye Hear Ye

The past two days seemed to rekindle the spark
Of Samandan posts which hit the mark
Well-posed questions led to discussions
The many faces of Sam, without repercussions

Energy and substance flared
Wit and wisdom from those who cared
Samandans old, Samandans new
Had things to say that rang true

Even though some of the Court are missing
It's good to see the thread still listening
To each other without causing pain
Kindness and support do reign!

Here's to Royal Videographer
Can she soon be award-winning cinematographer?
And don't forget our poets and scribes
Go vote for them, keep Samandan hopes alive

We elders may be behind the scene
But are happy when Samandans earn their beans
Playfulness from days of yore
May yet return to Samandan shores

So here's my song, my little ditty
I must be off and leave our fair city
Real life calls me beyond Samanda's gate
Alas, alack ... I can't be late

Just to know that our collection
Seems to have arrived at its destination
The book delivered to the Studio's door
The week of our fair Queen's birth du jour

Perfect timing, don't you think?
With that, I'll flee and give a wink!

Jester

Hi Chopingal! Your poem is great, and seems to fit the mood of Samanda!!

Good to know about the collection---arrival time is perfect!

[Agent_Dark]

mmhm, that's odd. i found my walls there and my icons but my fic didn't make it

very odd

oh well, no biggie

i'll got some new fic to read, so that's what counts

For purely seflish reasons, thats good for me - now I dont have to go up against another awesome fic writer!

Though looking at Strix's and Rowan's fic, I don't think I have much of a chance anyway

[Traveler Enroute1]

And to not be a hypocrite, here's a question that will hopefully spur some discussion:

As the character of Sam Carter has been fleshed out over the years, as we've become more intimate with who she is, has your opinion of her changed? What I mean is, Sam is often lauded for the show's depiction of her as a strong soldier and scientist in earlier seasons. She is often criticized now for the show's depiction of her personal life and self-conflicts. Do you see her in a different light now (e.g. weaker, less successful) because her character has been expanded? Is she no longer the strong solider or scientist to you anymore? Is she now just a woman? And if so, is that a successful or unsuccessful depiction of Sam Carter?

<<my snip>>

I've always been impressed with Carter, even when I had my pouts with the ways her character had been written at times. I can't help but put her in the context of being a female in a basically macho environment. In TRW, she would have caught holy grief under some very not nice cadets and officers (think Tailhook). We got a glimpse of one very bright and proud cadet, Halley, and the crap she endured. Was Sam's cadet career without incident? They hinted not, in that episode ("Prodigy"). So when she hand's Jack his cajones in their first meeting, I understood her right off. (No, not mixing up the ep order; Sam's persona started layering up for me as episodes aired.)

She told Jack in "Ascension" that she always saw herself as focussed, which any cadet with ambition would have to be. Because AT plays the soldier/scientist/buddy so well, I think of her as a very complex person who stuck it out no matter what was thrown at her. Would her personal gender needs be submerged? Apparently not, at least not completely: she was engaged. I liked that she had this in her past, and as we saw how attractive she was to males other than Jack, I was glad she didn't have to "pretty-up" too much to get their attention. (Well I did have issues with Pete, but I won't go there now, or ever again ).

So, I say Sam's character has morphed successfully into one I look forward to watching. Not a whuss, not a prissy missy or a b++++ . Sam's all that she can be: soldier, friend, scientist, officer, AND w-o-m-a-n ("she can bring home the bacon and make a mean souflee" ).

Samantha Carter has arrived- bring on season 10!

Just sayin.

[chocdoc]

I hope to hear others views on this subject. I know there are at least a couple of anti s/j shippers on this thread, but I’d really like to hear what you think of what I said. if you had to pick which guy was more suited to sam, would you pick jack or pete? and if you didn't like either, which person would you pick (you can pick another character or make someone up)? and think of this from what's best for sam, not your own personal feelings pro or con about s/j ship.



sally

Good question. I would classify myself as a non S/J shipper. I would be okay if sam and jack got together in the end, but if they didn't, I would be fine too.

From my point of view, both Pete and Jack are not who I would think Sam would choose for a long-term partner. Pete is an easy case for me---totally wrong for Sam---I think she had fun with him--he took her away from work and that was good. It probably was also nice to have someone fall in love with her, want her, and someone who she could actually pursue. But I couldn't see Sam really committed to Pete, and she made the right choice in breaking it off with him.

Jack is a different story. I can see Sam admiring him, and probably even falling a bit in love with him---she likes his sense of humor---he's smarter than he lets on, and they could probably be goofy together if they could actually be together. I think they both have an attraction for each other, but maybe much of this comes from being in life and death situations together.

But I'm not sure I see Sam and Jack together for the long haul either. I wonder if she would tire of him after awhile. I think they both have trouble expressing their emotions (Jack more so than Sam), and this could be a problem for them. I would rather their relationship be more about mentor/mentee in the military and mutual respect professionally (but I didn't mind that they had/have feelings for each other).

Here's another weird thing. I could have seen them together easier if the show ended by say season 5, but now it just doesn't seem quite right. I'm not sure why I think this. Although I have to admit---the Threads sam/jack scene was very convincing that maybe they should be together eventually when regs permit.

Who would I want Sam to be with? Well obviously she doesn't need to be with anybody, but I am a romantic and I think Jacob is right---it is a great feeling to love and be loved, so I would want this for Sam. On the other hand, Sam would care more about the threat of the Ori than she would about falling in love! Not sure who I would see her with. I thought Barrett for awhile, but he is not exciting enough. Mckay---no, I like him but I don't see them romantically involved. Never really liked Narim enough. Actually kind of liked Orlin and thought they were cute together, but that isn't going to happen! I was thinking maybe another scientist, but no -- she would probably want to be with someone quite different like an artist---a person that taps into her wild side. I like the idea of Janet, but hey, that wouldn't work.


I am going to go for an artist type---Sam is an artist too, but in a different way. Someone really creative, innovative, and also tender like Orlin, but not Orlin. When I think about this more, I could easily change my mind!

[Skydiver]

to me, sam needs someone who is forceful. that was one of my issues with pete. he was too nice. too easy for her to walk all over. he tried too hard to be solicious which meant that he'd conceed too much, which would lead to issues between them because he'd eventually resent it and would try to control her to overcome that, which she would resent (and i don't mean abusive control, i mean asking questions, wanting answers, wanting to take care of her)


one reason i see jack working for her - and bear in mind that i see this a lot more in fic than i do the show - is that he respects her. he knows that she can take care of herself...but he's there to step in if needed.
he won't let her walk all over him, in fact he'll challenge her
he also understands the icky parts of her job and the nasty things she's had to do

i think that sam needs an alpha male. she needs someone forceful but also respectful and kind and who has the ability to worm his way past her 'i'm fine'

she also needs someone that she can trust implicitly and bonus points if she can share all of her life with him. because if she can't, then that tension will build and eventually come between them

so, does it have to be jack? no. but someone like him would work good for her, or at least my interpretation of her

[Uber]

to me, sam needs someone who is forceful. that was one of my issues with pete. he was too nice. too easy for her to walk all over. he tried too hard to be solicious which meant that he'd conceed too much, which would lead to issues between them because he'd eventually resent it and would try to control her to overcome that, which she would resent (and i don't mean abusive control, i mean asking questions, wanting answers, wanting to take care of her)


one reason i see jack working for her - and bear in mind that i see this a lot more in fic than i do the show - is that he respects her. he knows that she can take care of herself...but he's there to step in if needed.
he won't let her walk all over him, in fact he'll challenge her
he also understands the icky parts of her job and the nasty things she's had to do

i think that sam needs an alpha male. she needs someone forceful but also respectful and kind and who has the ability to worm his way past her 'i'm fine'

she also needs someone that she can trust implicitly and bonus points if she can share all of her life with him. because if she can't, then that tension will build and eventually come between them

so, does it have to be jack? no. but someone like him would work good for her, or at least my interpretation of her

Another thing I think has to do with Jack's sense of humor and thickheadedness.

Sam has such a serious and thoroughly complex career...filled with solving all manner of insanely complicated problems...

So I think she needs someone who is...yes, a strong, alpha male kinda guy...but also someone who gives her the ability to laugh a little more and see the simpler side of life...

Just my take...

[golfbooy]

Originally Posted by Skydiver:
Personally, i think sam came out of grace bound and determined to have a life no matter what and she jumped on the first opportunity. then, in her determination to make it work, she ignored things that she may normally have let bug her.

Usually I'm reluctant to make a foray into the well laid minefield that is Pete, but tonight I'll go stomping oafishly in anyway. For the most part, I can watch SG-1 and not see the production side of things. That is, I watch the story, watch the characters, and focus primarily on that. It's why I enjoy it so much. It's why I don't give two figs about the Jonas/Daniel crap, why Martouf's death made me cheer, why I can't bring myself to hate Vala, and even why Janet's death doesn't raise my ire. Pete, however, is the notable exception to all of that.

I'll never see him as anything more than the plot device he was. And, honestly, I'm not really sure why. Maybe it's because (IMO) David DeLuise simply came across so flat when acting against Amanda Tapping. Maybe it's because the episodes that were supposed to be about Sam and Pete were so completely jammed with ship that any thought of Sam actually ending up with this guy was laughable. Maybe it's because Pete, contrary to other love interests in SG-1, had absolutely no place in the story. After all, they did have to try pretty hard to fit him in there.

The bottom line is that over the course of the SG-1's history TPTB did too good a job of weaving Sam's and Jack's feelings for each other into the fabric of the show. There was such a visceral reaction to Pete because he invalidated so much of the show's history. The idea that Sam and Pete would end up together or were right for each other was simply too unbelievable. And this from the show about wormholes and aliens.

And, to be honest, I thought they nailed Chimera. I've rewatched it a couple of times since it first aired, and each time I have the same reaction. It works great for Sam right up until the last five minutes. There's no way Pete gets that much of a break from Sam, there's no way he gets told about the program. Sorry, but that's asking for a little too much. Even I can't shut my brain off that much to enjoy the story. Aside from that Chimera is a great look at a side of Sam that had rarely been explored. And for that, I was willing to cut everyone involved in the fiasco some slack, especially considering how brilliant I thought that Death Knell, Inauguration, and most of all, Lost City were.

Here's where the production side of things keeps jabbing me in the head with a pike. There is absolutely no possible way that Pete hangs around after the events of Lost City. Sam doesn't get back from the Antarctic, pick up the phone, call Pete, and then chat him up for another date. It was perfectly clear that Sam's mind was made up in Lost City. It was the way the writers wanted it to be, it was the way most fans wanted it to be, and most importantly, it was the right decision for the story. The only reason Pete remains a part of Sam's life is because there was no other plausible excuse to keep Sam and Jack apart for another entire season of episodes. It was one of the few times, for me, in the whole history of the show, where production constraints really, really hurt the story. And don't ask me where the whole marriage thing came from. That was as out of left field as anything else. Affinity is a dud the like of which SG-1 hadn't ever seen. My God, can't we leave 21 Jump Street dead and buried where it belongs?

Anyway, that's my take on Pete, in an oversized nut shell. I could go on, particularly about some of the choices made about how to portray Pete in Threads, but I figure why subject the rest of you to that? Now, I'll just pick up the left arm and leg that got blown off by one of those pesky mines awhile back, and I'll be on my way.

[jckfan55]

Then in Message in a Bottle, I confess to getting a little irked at Hammond for fussing at Sam..."You're telling me to do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you recommended an hour ago...so which is it, Captain?" (okay not a direct quote but you get the idea) but Hammond saw from that pivotal experience that she was right all along...if they were trying to "kill" the entity, then her plan at least slowed it down but since they needed it to reach critical mass, she was correct in allowing it to take over Jack.

The thing I like about that scene is that Sam is not cowed by the General. She doesn't get flustered, she doesn't back down, and she doesn't make excuses. She just gets on with it, despite her own worries. AT was great IMO at showing that Sam could be cool under pressure, despite caring about what happened to O'Neill (not to mention the world.)

Yet another time the SGC and earth was saved by Carter. (I need to start counting how many times she's saved the earth...)

How many episodes have there been?--there's your total.

[Skydiver]

i do agree (i'm not risking the quote bug)

i think a lot of pete was a plot device.

first of all, he tailed her to the stakeout??? dude, i don't think so. he just hung out outside norad and randomly p icked a white panel van to follow? trust me, colorado springs is not that small and you don't just hang out outside amiliatary installation, not since 911 that is.

pete fell into a huge plot hole and never quite managed to crawl out of it.

i know why they did what they did, they had to hurt him to get him to know the secret, but it was just too contrived. my favorite 'what if' would have been if daniel had introduced them instead of mark. then pete would have had a reaosn to be outside danny's house.

affinity.....i'm sorry, but the whole sam/pete bit screamed as little more than 'ok, we wanna do teal'c in the world, now how will we fill the other half of the show...oh and do it cheaply and on earth...oh i know, we already did daniel and sarah and anne plowman is too expensive to bring back, but look, peter deluise's brother comes cheap, let's write sam/pete'

it was convenience, pure and simple.

the whole pete thing in the beginning, yes it did address sam's life issues, but also it served as little more than to also put to bed the sarah angle, adn pete filled the other half of the show.

just like he filled the other half of teal'c's episode

[chocdoc]

Usually I'm reluctant to make a foray into the well laid minefield that is Pete, but tonight I'll go stomping oafishly in anyway. For the most part, I can watch SG-1 and not see the production side of things. That is, I watch the story, watch the characters, and focus primarily on that. It's why I enjoy it so much. It's why I don't give two figs about the Jonas/Daniel crap, why Martouf's death made me cheer, why I can't bring myself to hate Vala, and even why Janet's death doesn't raise my ire. Pete, however, is the notable exception to all of that.

I'll never see him as anything more than the plot device he was. And, honestly, I'm not really sure why. Maybe it's because (IMO) David DeLuise simply came across so flat when acting against Amanda Tapping. Maybe it's because the episodes that were supposed to be about Sam and Pete were so completely jammed with ship that any thought of Sam actually ending up with this guy was laughable. Maybe it's because Pete, contrary to other love interests in SG-1, had absolutely no place in the story. After all, they did have to try pretty hard to fit him in there.

The bottom line is that over the course of the SG-1's history TPTB did too good a job of weaving Sam's and Jack's feelings for each other into the fabric of the show. There was such a visceral reaction to Pete because he invalidated so much of the show's history. The idea that Sam and Pete would end up together or were right for each other was simply too unbelievable. And this from the show about wormholes and aliens.

And, to be honest, I thought they nailed Chimera. I've rewatched it a couple of times since it first aired, and each time I have the same reaction. It works great for Sam right up until the last five minutes. There's no way Pete gets that much of a break from Sam, there's no way he gets told about the program. Sorry, but that's asking for a little too much. Even I can't shut my brain off that much to enjoy the story. Aside from that Chimera is a great look at a side of Sam that had rarely been explored. And for that, I was willing to cut everyone involved in the fiasco some slack, especially considering how brilliant I thought that Death Knell, Inauguration, and most of all, Lost City were.

Here's where the production side of things keeps jabbing me in the head with a pike. There is absolutely no possible way that Pete hangs around after the events of Lost City. Sam doesn't get back from the Antarctic, pick up the phone, call Pete, and then chat him up for another date. It was perfectly clear that Sam's mind was made up in Lost City. It was the way the writers wanted it to be, it was the way most fans wanted it to be, and most importantly, it was the right decision for the story. The only reason Pete remains a part of Sam's life is because there was no other plausible excuse to keep Sam and Jack apart for another entire season of episodes. It was one of the few times, for me, in the whole history of the show, where production constraints really, really hurt the story. And don't ask me where the whole marriage thing came from. That was as out of left field as anything else. Affinity is a dud the like of which SG-1 hadn't ever seen. My God, can't we leave 21 Jump Street dead and buried where it belongs?

Anyway, that's my take on Pete, in an oversized nut shell. I could go on, particularly about some of the choices made about how to portray Pete in Threads, but I figure why subject the rest of you to that? Now, I'll just pick up the left arm and leg that got blown off by one of those pesky mines awhile back, and I'll be on my way.

Completely agree with you. Pete should not have been hanging around after Lost City. Pete/sam storyline was incredibly jarring throughout season 8.

After reading your comments, I wished Sam and Jack would have had a real talk after the events of New Order when Jack was back and Sam had survived Fifth's torture. They should have had a talk about their feelings --- even if was--what we do in our jobs right now is much more important than getting together. They could have acknowledged their feelings like responsible adults, and then decided together what they would do about it, even if it meant that they couldn't act on those feelings.

The darned show kept getting renewed!! (thank goodness)

All I can say is, give me lots of soldier, scientist Sam for season 9 for now. Let's bring Sam back to balance. I love all sides of her, but I need that highly skilled, determined scientific mind that knows how to handle a P90 as well as anyone else.

[Agent_Dark]

I hope to hear others views on this subject. I know there are at least a couple of anti s/j shippers on this thread, but I’d really like to hear what you think of what I said. if you had to pick which guy was more suited to sam, would you pick jack or pete? and if you didn't like either, which person would you pick (you can pick another character or make someone up)? and think of this from what's best for sam, not your own personal feelings pro or con about s/j ship.



sally

*warning, long winded discussion ahead*

Enter the Non-Shipper!

I just can't see Sam and Jack both surviving in a romantic relationship. Ultimately I think they'd both end up leaving each other (I'm with Amanda on this one! )
The fact that so many Sam and Jack's hook up in AU's is meaningless to me. Like Teal'c said, 'The only reality of consequence is our own'. Completely different circumstances equal completely different Sam's and Jack's.
But lets take 2010 - which is actually our own Sam and Jack, just in the future. From watching it again last night, it's quite obvious that they've had a fairly bad falling out, and I don't think it was just because of their different viewpoints on the Aschen. It may have had something to do with Joe, or maybe the rest of SG1 or maybe even Hammond's death, but there was definately something else that happened to drive them apart. Jack washed his hands clean of Carter (and maybe Daniel too. I can't see him doing that to Teal'c) and retired to his cabin. Where I might add, he was living alone, and seemingly relishing it.

Carter on the other hand has gotten herself married to Joe, the ambassador. And in my opinion, it was for much the same reasons as her involvement with Pete would be - she wants someone to love, and she jumps at the chance to do it. If SG1 hadn't of died saving the world (how heroic!) I believe that Sam and Joe would have gotten a divorce down the track.
Now Sam also has the lure of the 'Lunatic Fringe' - Jonas Hansen, and probably at least someone else before that. Short, wild and passionate? but ultimately destructive relationships which she seems to find herself wanting. Its a flaw of her character - she can't see them coming and when she does finally see it, its too late. That itself may be a product of a slightly rebellious childhood after her mothers death and that period where her family started to fall apart (brother and father hating each other, and maybe taking it out abit on Sam. Not intentionally of course, but Sam definately wasn't immune to it's effects). Maybe Sam was screaming for attention (hooking up with the 'lunatic fringe') but no-one was listening. If her Mother had of still been alive though...

So basically we have Sam not having luck with the Lunatic Fringe (Jonas Hansen), nor the Sweet Caring Guy (Joe Faxon, Pete Shanahan). So how does that go with Jack?

Jack definately has the Lunatic Fringe part. Divorced, and probably still painful memories of it (death of son, and the break up with Sara. Which by the way, he still keeps photos of on his wall. So its still in his mind.)
Years of Special Forces Operations during the Cold War. Probably got up to some nasty stuff there. And then there's the 4 months in the Iraqi Prison, which didn't sound too pleasant...
I think thats some of the reason why maybe Sam finds herself attracted to him. But its that reason why I don't see it working for them. If they did ever get together, it'd be like Sam's previous Lunatic Fringe relationships - Short, Wild, Passionate, but ultimately ('scuse the French) frakked up.

If I had to choose someone for Sam, it'd be either Daniel (thats early series Daniel, before they got the sibling vibe going) or Janet. Daniel is different enough from her (thinks with his heart and goes by inuition, whereas Sam uses her mind more, and goes by logic) but is similar enough to understand what drives her, and makes her tick. Janet has the obvious link with Cassandra and would be able to give Sam that family life that she seems to want. Yet, like Daniel, still be able to keep up with her smarts and understand her drives.
Teal'c even - he could provide her the strong honourable support, yet not judge her against so called standards that she might get compared to otherwise.

However, I wouldn't want to see any of those as canon for Sam, beyond friendship. Much for the same reason that I don't like Sam/Jack - it becomes too much about the relationship at the expense of the character, and it detracts from the team setting of SG1. Fanfic - definately, Canon - no.

So where does that leave me? I would prefer to see Sam stay alone (and not because I'm a cold hearted *******! ). Fairy tale endings dont happen in real life, so I don't see why Sam should get one (nor any of SG1 for that matter). I guess I just find something appealing about the sacrifices heroes go through. For Sam, saving the world has cost her her social and personal life. But inspite of that, she pulls through and with the support of her friends is happy with the way she lives her life.

And I think thats what makes a great character

[Traveler Enroute1]

I hope to hear others views on this subject. I know there are at least a couple of anti s/j shippers on this thread, but I’d really like to hear what you think of what I said. if you had to pick which guy was more suited to sam, would you pick jack or pete? and if you didn't like either, which person would you pick (you can pick another character or make someone up)? and think of this from what's best for sam, not your own personal feelings pro or con about s/j ship.

sally

Nice analysis. Besides Teal'c or Daniel?

Think about it: Sam and Teal'c; he with his pragmatic outlook, his protectiveness and loyalty, and intelligence. He's an excellent listener. Sam would be less serious with him, and Teal'c's relatively stoic demeanor would bring out Sam's playful side. I could see her teasing him about something or other just to make him smile, or even laugh. And of course, there's no question how tender Teal'c can be...

Of Daniel: Well, having grown into geek-hunkdom, no question that they would be well matched intellectually. There'd be no shortage of discussions with those two, on the social and scientific aspects of missions. Would work better if they weren't both on the same team, though. Need I mention Daniel's sensual...oops, that's sensitive side? Two scientists in love; oh, the things...Well, they're explorers, too.

Since neither of those would EVER happen this side of fanfic (hey, I love those, too ), I think Sam would like someone with depth. A doctor, perhaps, interested in xenobiology. With an adventurous streak and love of mysteries. A computer nerd whose curiosity jells with her knowledge and interest of things theoretical and complicated. He would best be able to express himself simply and/or intricately as Sam and openminded about her career absences. Of course, any guy worth her regard would care about saving the world, or at least, helping others.

But all aside, Jack's her soul mate and I'm sticking to that. (Sorry, majorsal, I couldn't keep that in! )

Just sayin'.