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    Originally posted by ChopinGal
    I think you've nailed it ... the leak cemented the final ending ... they were painted into a corner and refused to undo the damage.
    but you know, i do respect them in a way. they made a decision that, in hindsight, was a bad one...but they did stick with it.

    one of my main issues with red sky was that a happy ending was forced...imho it would have been far more powerful had the g'tau died. I was a bit frustrated with this 'we HAVE to have a happy ending' and had they tweaked Heroes that way, i would have been disappointed.

    which is a bit of a contradiction but, while i do think that it's far more powerful if that person had just been maimed or injured, i respect that they stuck by thier spoilers and didn't force the happy ending
    Where in the World is George Hammond?


    sigpic

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      Originally posted by Skydiver

      (snip)

      heroes spoiler
      Spoiler:
      in heroes, janet died. and it sucked. but there was a funeral, they dealt with cassie and life goes on.

      but had janet lived and been maimed then they would have to deal with that on a daily basis. It would have been some fantastic development for her.

      i mean, look at Bud on Jag. Bud was horribly maimed and we've watched him deal with it over the years. IMHO, that's much more powerful than if he'd died
      continuing with heroes 2 spoilers

      Spoiler:
      i think the 'only' flaw with my idea is that maybe the writers would have been tempted on having janet's leg 'recovered' (better term?) by the asgard or something. i mean really, it would make sense that they would be able to do something like that. the writers would have to do some clever writing to find a reason why the asgard couldn't do it. death is powerful in drama, but stargate never followed up on it in this case, so it started to feel hollow for the janet character. i'm also remembering (as i'm typing) that the original reason they decided to off janet was because teryl had another project, and they thought it was their last season. but that still doesn't mean they couldn't have taken a more difficult (to write) route and write her maimed instead.

      this is going to sound *really* weird, but when you said, sky, about janet losing a leg being great character developement for her... it made me instantly want that to happen to sam. but i don't want sam losing her leg! but i think it would make VERY interesting viewing watching sam deal with a disability.

      amanda can sign language, too bad they didn't take advantage of that by having sam go dear for a bit (long enough for sam to learn sign language).

      k, i'm babbling, bye.



      sally


      ps - i think the mods here should give me an astro dispensation so i can rep her as much as i want.
      Last edited by majorsal; 30 April 2005, 08:38 PM. Reason: have trouble with french spellings :p
      sally

      sigpic

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        Originally posted by Skydiver
        that is one spoiler i really, really, really wish they hadn't leaked.

        heroes spoiler
        Spoiler:

        don't get me wrong here. i hate that janet died. but, once the spoilerleaked and then it looked like tptb could ignore that spoiler to make a happy ending, well i would have been disappointed in them had they taken the easy way out, especially after we knew about a year ahead of time about it.

        but, if they had have notlet that spoiler out, then they could have tweaked and changed it and then have gone for the injury angle
        and i keep thinking of all the great sam-janet scenes we could have seen. amanda and teryl played 'friends' real well (are in real life), so i very much miss their banter together.

        but why haven't they mentioned janet since
        Spoiler:
        she was killed? it gives the impression that no one (including sam) really cared for her.


        kind of like spoilers for s8's new order
        Spoiler:
        the impression that was given when no one really seemed to grieve for sam in new order.
        this is too much lazy writing.


        sally
        sally

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          We'll I have my family visiting this weekend so I haven't had a lot of time to respond much to posts but wanted to thank everyone for their comments regarding Abyss.

          Deepspace your story was wonderful. Great Job!

          With all the chatting about Janet recently, I found myself re-watching Heroes I & II last night. I can verify that it's as much of a tear-jerker for me even knowing how it's going to end.

          However, as I was re-watching the first half, I noticed several scenes that I somehow managed to overlook in previous viewings. Both scenes took place in Sam's lab, one with Daniel and the other with Teal'c. I really like to see scenes were Sam gets to banter with Daniel and Teal'c and she really appeared much more relaxed and comfortable, letting a bit of humor slip into their conversation.

          Sam: So did you do your interview with the documentary crew yet?
          Teal'c: Indeed
          Sam: I have to admit I can't wait to hear what everyone else said.


          Teal'c: I did not say much.
          Sam: Really? That is surprising. It's usually so hard to shut you up.



          Teal'c just responds with a raised eyebrow and Sam is so tickled with her comment and his response. It really was a great scene between the two of them. I hope we see more in season 9.

          She has a similiar little scene with Daniel in her lab later in the episode.
          Sam doesn't really say anything to Daniel, but I just loved the expression on her face as Daniel is talking. I really wish I was better at capturing her true repsonse to Daniel's comments. It was just so funny the way she kind of rolled her eyes and smirked at him.

          Daniel: You know, Bregman actually had the nerve to suggest that all that archive video footage I gave him was boring.

          Sam never says anything in response to his comment other than her facial gestures, but I can't help but thinking this is what she wanted to say.
          Sam: Oh? Hmmm...boring...you??? Never.






          Kat

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            Originally posted by astrogeologist
            LOL! Astrog is making notes to tell Deepspace not to write TokraHostess into a medic role in the next chapter of her Samanda epic
            Argh, I think I'd prefer old Doc Fraiser... oh wait, shes got big needles...

            Comment


              Originally posted by ChopinGal
              Gosh, Keeper ... not at the moment. But I'm sure some fellow Samandan may have the answer. It may have been a magazine article - gonna go check out some of my past mags.

              Spoiler:
              I remember that the writers were starting to realize what a big step they were taking after the mania of prodding each other to really pull it off ... and Amanda also was advocating for TR to be kept on ... that a serious injury could prove their point and still salvage the character. Shame they didn't listen!
              I agree, Chopingal!
              Originally posted by ChopinGal
              NC and Astro ... kudos on your unusual teaching styles.

              I just collected 30 term papers from two classes. After quick glances at the writing, I wanted to have real blankets thrown over their heads!

              The only fault transecting my classroom was their failure to spell and punctuate!
              Originally posted by Tok'Ra Hostess
              Originally posted by astrogeologist
              LOL! Astrog is making notes to tell Deepspace not to write TokraHostess into a medic role in the next chapter of her Samanda epic
              Medic role? I should say not! Note to Deepspace: TH is not the "kissey the poor baby's boo-boos" type (but I think you've already figured that out). When it comes to empathty for the stricken I'm more a McKay type, or concussed Sam's version of Daniel.

              AD is head of security around here. That makes him at least as hard headed as Jack, right?
              Originally posted by ChopinGal
              I'm with you sistah! Our big and brawny guys around here need to take care of themselves.

              I can't stand movies (or fanfic) where the stereotyped female is hovering over the poor suffering hero and nursing him back to health! Forget it, buddy. Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
              TH and chopingal - thanks for the laughs...!

              Comment


                Originally posted by ForeverSg1
                We'll I have my family visiting this weekend so I haven't had a lot of time to respond much to posts but wanted to thank everyone for their comments regarding Abyss.

                Deepspace your story was wonderful. Great Job!

                With all the chatting about Janet recently, I found myself re-watching Heroes I & II last night. I can verify that it's as much of a tear-jerker for me even knowing how it's going to end.

                However, as I was re-watching the first half, I noticed several scenes that I somehow managed to overlook in previous viewings. Both scenes took place in Sam's lab, one with Daniel and the other with Teal'c. I really like to see scenes were Sam gets to banter with Daniel and Teal'c and she really appeared much more relaxed and comfortable, letting a bit of humor slip into their conversation.

                Sam: So did you do your interview with the documentary crew yet?
                Teal'c: Indeed
                Sam: I have to admit I can't wait to hear what everyone else said.


                Teal'c: I did not say much.
                Sam: Really? That is surprising. It's usually so hard to shut you up.



                Teal'c just responds with a raised eyebrow and Sam is so tickled with her comment and his response. It really was a great scene between the two of them. I hope we see more in season 9.

                She has a similiar little scene with Daniel in her lab later in the episode.
                Sam doesn't really say anything to Daniel, but I just loved the expression on her face as Daniel is talking. I really wish I was better at capturing her true repsonse to Daniel's comments. It was just so funny the way she kind of rolled her eyes and smirked at him.

                Daniel: You know, Bregman actually had the nerve to suggest that all that archive video footage I gave him was boring.

                Sam never says anything in response to his comment other than her facial gestures, but I can't help but thinking this is what she wanted to say.
                Sam: Oh? Hmmm...boring...you??? Never.






                Kat
                Great pics and dialogue, Kat! Thanks for posting them! Love the scene with Teal'c... "Really? That is surprising. It's usually so hard to shut you up." LOL!

                Comment


                  Originally posted by majorsal
                  continuing with heroes 2 spoilers

                  Spoiler:
                  i think the 'only' flaw with my idea is that maybe the writers would have been tempted on having janet's leg 'recovered' (better term?) by the asgard or something. i mean really, it would make sense that they would be able to do something like that. the writers would have to do some clever writing to find a reason why the asgard couldn't do it.
                  I think they still could have done it - they would have just had Thor come along... try to fix things and then say that the damage was to great in the spinal cord or some such... If they can [spoilers] kill of Jacob the way that they did - giving Selmak no recourse and taking Jacob with him. But when Jolinar died in Sam, Jolinar was able to let Sam live, but they simply said it wasn't possible - not enough time or such - for Selmak/Jacob... But Jolinar didn't have much time after that Ashrak showed up... Well, my point is that I think they could have come up with a reason why the Asguard wouldn't be able to cure
                  Spoiler:
                  Janet's injury
                  So I think your idea is still great.


                  Originally posted by majorsal
                  Spoiler:
                  this is going to sound *really* weird, but when you said, sky, about janet losing a leg being great character developement for her... it made me instantly want that to happen to sam. but i don't want sam losing her leg! but i think it would make VERY interesting viewing watching sam deal with a disability.

                  amanda can sign language, too bad they didn't take advantage of that by having sam go dear for a bit (long enough for sam to learn sign language).
                  A temporary disability for Sam would be a great plot device - I wouldn't like a permanent one - but a temporary one... say that lasted for one or two or three episodes - that would make for some great drama and emotion.
                  Originally posted by majorsal
                  ps - i think the mods here should give me an astro dispensation so i can rep her as much as i want.
                  And I want to be able to rep back more often too!

                  Comment


                    I should go to bed, but what the heck, here's a clip from Zero Hour.

                    You should read what Teal'c...







                    NC

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by deepspace
                      Ok, on the subject of Gemini.
                      Now, I know none of you are going to like this post, because it’s going to be harsh.
                      It’s really easy to say Sam stuffed up. It’s really easy to say she made bad decisions. It’s easy to say Sam was gullible. It’s even easier to say that she should have killed Replicarter.
                      Now, you tell me, if you were in that position, your replicator double has just walked through the gate, what are you going to do?


                      But I do like that post!

                      Begging everyone's pardon in advance for what's surely going to constitute newcomer versbosity, which, I hope, isn't an unpardonable sin hereabouts...



                      Possible Gemini spoilers -
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                      Yes, the entire setup reeked like a whole kettle of trouble getting shoved into the hottest part of the fire, but, while I imagined RepliCarter getting her hands on the weapon when the rest of the bugs showed up, smashing as much of Sam's psyche as she could in retaliation for what Sam did to Fifth (first and second times), her own creation, and what Sam had helped the Asgard do to the Replicators in the past, and then calmly beaming back to the rest of the Replicators to finish the research to counter the weapon and to begin conquering the galaxy, I never imagined RepliCarter deliberately planning and carrying out a Replicator coup d'etat by assassinating Fifth with the Earthlings as her weapon. That part was truly shocking, for me, at least, and, I have to admit, more than a little impressive. That is - was - one dangerous artificial intelligence!

                      I don't think anyone presented with an inhuman personal double would have a hope of avoiding developing very strong emotions toward that double. Whether those emotions turned toward empathy, as Sam's did in Gemini, or toward rejection, as Jack's did in Double Jeopardy, or toward some other emotion would, of course, depend on the person, the inhuman double, and the circumstances. And, equally obviously, the reaction isn't really 'honest' if the duplicate is deliberately manipulating the original, as RepliCarter was.

                      (And man, was I annoyed with the blurb the ep got in the local tv listings - "Carter's emotions put the entire galaxy in danger!" Hmph. Why's it always the woman who has to have dangerous emotions? Why wasn't the analogous situation when Jack gave Anubis the Eye of Ra on Daniel's advice and Anubis promptly blew up Abydos and made a weapon that he intended to use to blow up Earth described as 'O'Neill's emotions put the entire galaxy in danger!' Bah.)

                      That being said, I wonder now as I did when I first saw Gemini, what the Air Force advisor thought of Carter being in command of the mission to interrogate her duplicate. Surely there are policies for analogous scenarios that should have applied to this one? The real Carter got burned badly in a situation that I don't think she should ever have been allowed to be in. (Granted, I'm not the Air Force advisor that what I think counts but it stands to reason.) It seems to me that the RepliCarter situation ought to have fallen into the same category as putting someone in command of interrogating their identical twin that's joined a terrorist group or something - one would want the 'good' twin present at the interrogations because the shared knowledge / experiences provide(s) them a perspective that no one else can duplicate or anticipate, but, at the same time, one wouldn't put the 'good' twin in charge of the mission because the shared knowledge / experiences constitute(s) a vulnerability that no one else can duplicate or anticipate, and does one really want someone with a built in vulnerability to this very specific situation in command of that situation, much less someone as empathetic and sympathetic as Carter has shown herself to be? (I think that empathetic and sympathetic nature of Sam's is a very good thing, and very valuable, but every good and valuable trait can be turned to a liability under specific circumstances, and was in these circumstances.) It doesn't seem to me that the US military would answer yes on that, so very, very many bad outcomes are so very likely to occur (and did here).

                      I spent the rest of season 8 waiting for somebody to ask Jack what the dickens got into him, strategist that he's supposed to be, letting Sam command that mission. The idea had "bad strategy" stamped all over it from its very inception, even in the eyes of an amateur like me. After all, Jack could have have sent Sam along and still had someone else with no ambivalence or potential identification-with-self issues toward RepliCarter command the mission. For example, commanding something like the interrogation of RepliCarter would have suited the apparently perennially cranky and suspicious Colonel Edwards of SG-11 perfectly. Sure, send Sam on the mission - she'll be invaluable - but this is a woman whose heart is at least as expansive as her intellect, and her commanding officer knows this, and should know he has to take it into account. Having someone like Edwards in charge would have been much more realistic, I'd think, in terms of logical military procedure, and it would have offered all kinds of possibilities to inject some then-and-there conflict into the episode, instead of when Fifth gets here somebody's gonna get a spanking - I mean assimilated - I mean, be in trouble! - oh, wait, no, that's when your father gets here, not Fifth - ahem - I mean: when Fifth finally demonstrates his adolescent mindset by stalking his ex-girlfriend, who, despite the fact that he made for himself, has now left him because she understandably can't abide him, instead of getting on with his rightful business of Replicating when he invades this galaxy full of Goa'uld technological goodies somebody will probably get conquered!!!! conflict-to-be.

                      (Of course, I'm still wondering who said what to the Asgard, too, that they just popped a Replicator-Disruptor satellite in a box and sent it on over to our galaxy without so much as a 'Are you sure about this???' note taped to the thing, much less the Asgard scientist to observe and contribute that one might expect to have accompanied the box. Whatever they said, it must have been a doozy.)

                      In season 9, I'd like to see a situation where the SGC has to decide whether to trust a former enemy (who is not a double of Sam ), and RepliCarter is the reference to which everyone refers, and because of which, Sam's opinion is mostly discounted. But, when the decision to trust or not is made opposite to her opinion, it turns out to be wrong, and Sam has to use her empathy - as well as her scientific and military expertise - to salvage the situation and save the world, and succeeds brilliantly. (hey, I like 'Sam saves the world' stories! )

                      And I will now turn the blither generator off, to everyone's immense relief, no doubt.

                      Simha
                      ...a very cranky blog:http://simhavaktra.blogspot.com/

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                        I was in the mood tonight for a lighter Carter episode so I watched Avenger 2.0 and then lsitened to the commentary. Thought I would post a couple of pics. of Sam with the Carter Special!



                        My View From The Peanut Gallery

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                          We’ve had another Sam sighting! She is out there and she’s spreading her wings to visit old friends.


                          Sam believes her copter is a great vehicular transportation device.

                          The sentiment above is paraphrased from an AT remark on the Red Sky DVD audio commentary. NC, your audio clips inspired me! Many thanks for your kind comments on the Cartercopter Alpha Site Landing manip - DeepSpace, tara3583, Astrog, ChopinGal, SG-1fanintn and Sally. I apologize if I missed any names…

                          I wonder where she will show up next?

                          Comment


                            I'm glad that Astrogeologist brought up Red Sky, which makes an instructive contrast to Gemini. In the former, Sam took a shortcut—as we are all wont to do, from time to time—and had to deal with the unintended consequences. But she then arrived at a potential solution (the ending is ambiguous as to whether it worked or not). But the initial mistake & its attempted solution were products of her brilliance.
                            In Gemini, in order for the plot to work, Carter had to be dumbassified (as did Jack & Teal'c). RepliCarter shows up with a far-fetched sob story & Sam accepts it for reasons that boil down to "woman's intuition." She's making emotion-based decisions & O'Neill should have stepped in & overruled her. (The first time I saw Gemini, my suspicion was that Sam was taking a dive in order to justify supplanting her with Mitchell in S9. We'll see.)
                            By chance, I saw 48 Hours a few days ago. I don't think Carter got scapegoated there: The crisis was the product of external events. Only Rodney blamed her for Teal'c's plight—and got shipped off to Russia once Hammond lost patience with him.
                            Originally posted by Astrogeologist
                            i understand what the writers were tying to do - show the ugliness and finality of war and death - but i also think they could have suggested that in my scenario above ... to get back to our sam; i think if janet has survived, sam would have benefitted from janet's guidance concerning her personal life.
                            Especially if Janet had said, "Drop that buffoon Pete like a hot potato!"

                            The maimed-but-living Janet scenario is one that figures prominently in a lot of post-"Heroes" fan fiction. Heck, even if Dr. Fraiser had to hobble about the SGC like Dr. Weaver on "E.R." she could still have been part of the mix. Her humanity & keen sense of ethics are greatly missed.
                            It's difficult to be objective when your most-loved character gets offed by TPTB but, for me, the show kind of died when Janet did (compounded by the semi-exile of Hammond & the declining presence of RDA). IMO, it's been on life support for most of S8. I'm come around the opinion that Ben Browder will bring a welcome dose of vigor to SG-1, even if I'm ambivanet about many other aspects of S9.
                            But, getting back to Fraiser ... aside from feeling kicked in the teeth by having her bumped off, all this malarkey about bringing "reality" to the show by killing a beloved central character seems self-serving to me. "Look how high-minded we are being. Acknowledge us!" If they were really as brave as they pretended to be, they'd let one of the four regulars bite the bullet. (Fat chance.) It's called having your cake & eating it too.
                            After seven seasons, it was a bit late to get all pretentious about making death "real" for the audience. After all, death simply didn't exist on SG-1 unless you were a guest star. Otherwise you were A) ascended, B) placed in stasis, C) re-encountered in alternate universes, D) placed in a sarcophagus, E) had your energy signature reconstructed from the computer memory of the Stargate, F) had accelerating aging processes miraculously reversed, G) magically revived by the Nox, H) other methods too inane to be enumerated.
                            Killing the endearing Doc Fraiser was like a slap in the face (compounded when the surviving characters seemed to experience collective amnesia & never mentioned her or Cassandra again). Her subsequent replacement with a fembot must be TPTB's way of giving the finger to every fan who's still mourning Janet's demise. The feeling is mutual, fellas.
                            Originally posted by Skydiver
                            but had janet lived and been maimed then they would have to deal with that on a daily basis. It would have been some fantastic development for her.
                            Skydiver, I know you from Spoilergate—and you're right again. Ongoing human drama was sacrificed for a quick fix of pathos. You want reality? Fraiser (or another character) coping with a prothesis or a debilitating condition would be plenty real ... more so than getting zapped by a Jaffa.
                            Originally posted by ChopinGal
                            I remember that the writers were starting to realize what a big step they were taking after the mania of prodding each other to really pull it off ... and Amanda also was advocating for TR to be kept on ... that a serious injury could prove their point and still salvage the character. Shame they didn't listen!
                            Indeed. AT's idea would have made for better drama of an ongoing nature. We can only hope that if the Jacob & Cassandra storylines are revisited later (at AT's behest), that Janet will get some love, too. Although I expect that pigs will fly sooner than Teryl Rothery will be invited back on the show (b/c it would be seen as a tacit admission that killing Fraiser was a mistake). When Cassie got ditched the whole Hok'taur plot went with her, so that's yet another reason to revisit her character. They've just scratched the surface with her.
                            TR made it clear that she didn't want to leave the show or choose to do so. Since she was in 10-11 of 20 episodes per year, it's not like they couldn't have temporarily written her out & phased her back in. The "other projects" story sounds flimsy to me. [/rant]
                            Last edited by Carterslave; 01 May 2005, 01:03 AM.


                            Jr. Member, Gateworld Curmudgeon Club

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                              astro: I am so jealous of everyone who got the Season 7 lowdown with their DVDs! I bought the box sets for all seven seasons and *none* of them include any lowdowns! I was really hoping that the Season 7 DVD set would have the Season 7 lowdown at the begining... but *no*! harumph (ok, done ranting... )
                              Strix: Yeah, the ones I got didn't include them, either.
                              Well, I have Australian release DVD's so maybe it's different?

                              ...deepspace is a PROUD MEMBER of the Sam's A Great Character Thread...

                              HIC COMITAS REGIT!

                              Comment


                                astro: Ok, now I'm even more impressed - it's not easy to take a good picture of something that's burning... and you did a great job of snipping the candle and flame out of the original picture. Thanks so much for likening me to the candle flame... The SaGC thread and the kingdom of Samanda has so many denizens who are also points of light in the dark... and keeping the Sam-flame burning - including yourself.
                                Thankyou . I just wanted to contribute something other than my overopinionated discussion posts.

                                TH: Part One? There's a Part One???
                                <APPLAUSE> That's one terrific little Action/Adventure you've got going, DS. Write on!
                                Yes, there's a part one. Except I've lost it. Oops.

                                Sally: that was great! yes, please continue (if that's good with everyone?).

                                astro: It's definitely good with me (for deepspace to continue her story)

                                chopingal: Wow! You are certainly on a roll with your Muse, ds! Great job and your epic story of Samanda under attack is awesome! More, please ... more!
                                Agent Dark: Bahahaha at your little Samanda Fic Deepspace!!! Had me lol'ing
                                And I dunno if it was just me, but did I notice alot of Agent Dark whumping going on?

                                astro: Yeah - how's that mysterious headache, AD?

                                chopingal: I think our little Royal Page believes in "equal opportunity employment" - so many requests for Sam whumpage lately, it was nice to see Agent Dark taking a few hits too.

                                TH: Bah! You'll live....

                                astro: LOL! Astrog is making notes to tell Deepspace not to write TokraHostess into a medic role in the next chapter of her Samanda epic

                                TH: Medic role? I should say not! Note to Deepspace: TH is not the "kissey the poor baby's boo-boos" type (but I think you've already figured that out). When it comes to empathty for the stricken I'm more a McKay type, or concussed Sam's version of Daniel.

                                AD is head of security around here. That makes him at least as hard headed as Jack, right?
                                Well, Agent Dark is always saying how he likes Sam Whumping, so I thought it wouldn't harm for him to be whumped also. The headache is actually explained in part 1, it's no mystery. He gets zatted by jaffa.
                                At first I thought you were worried I was going to cast TH as a medic because of all this Janet maiming talk going on, but now I see all you were worried about was if I was going to make her kiss him. No way!

                                Thankyou for all your encouraging comments, but I was kinda hoping someone else would help continue it. But you all want me to. *Deepspace remembers this same scenario happening after part 1 was published*
                                Well, it might take a while. In less than two hours the weekend will be over. (You've probably noticed that I've had too much time on my hands the past few days).

                                ...deepspace is a PROUD MEMBER of the Sam's A Great Character Thread...

                                HIC COMITAS REGIT!

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