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    Originally posted by DEM
    I understand you, ShimmeringStar. I had thought this was the case, but.... (and where the heck is RoX of the ever-changing avatar?)
    I'm here!!! (with a different avatar - hey, I just found out I got a bonus 77 more so I'm trying 'em out )

    Okey dokey - first let me reiterate that scene in Company of Thieves that we have all been discussing, I don't find anything wrong with what Sam did, there is just something off in that scene and it's bugging me because I can't quite put my finger on it.

    Now for DEM
    Spoiler:
    I replayed that scene many times and the line from Marks sounds like it was two different parts
    The first part "Colonel what happpened? .... You've been gone for hours" actually looks to be in lip sync and sounds OK but the next bit "Where's Colonel Emerson?" actually sounds different and could have been dubbed in later.

    I have questions.

    Why is this scene here? What is it's purpose for furthering the story? Is something else supposed to have happened and ended up on the cutting room floor? FCOL it's a short bloody scene about 20 secs long and it's bugging me!

    A whole bunch of little things set me on edge with this scene.
    • Sam is shoved in the door (after apparently being gone for hours) and looks down and doesn't make eye contact with anyone and goes over to the side of the room.
    • The crew look at Sam but don't seem much interested in her, some even keep their back to her.
    • Marks gets up and approaches Sam asks "Colonel what happpened? .... You've been gone for hours" "Where's Colonel Emerson?"
    • Sam looks at Marks, she is upset but not overly so and it looks like she already had tear tracks on her face, she looks down and shakes her head.


    I have questions.

    Why wouldn't Sam make eye contact?
    Why weren't the crew crowding around to find out what's happening? They're being held prisoner, the two senior officers were removed from the hold, have been gone for hours and only one of them comes back. Why weren't they reacting more?
    Marks questions do actually sound like they were different takes. Is this what I picked up on initially but didn't realise it? (Hey if it wasn't for DEM I probably wouldn't have noticed it - I'm a visual person so that's probably why I locked in on Sam's tears in the first place)
    Why do these 20 secs bug me so?
    We already have had a scene with Sam reacting to Emerson's murder. Why did we need a second one? And why did it happen hours after Emerson was shot?


    For ShimmeringStar - what I would have liked for that scene.
    Spoiler:
    Sam is shoved in the door.
    She is visibly upset.
    The crew gathers round.
    She informs the crew that Emerson is dead, she tears up but continues.
    She updates the crew on their status as far as she knows.
    She gathers the senior officers and they huddle to start working out their next moves.

    This is what I would expect Sam to do as the senior officer rather than the scene we got.
    -

    Comment


      Originally posted by Deejay435
      Weeping, to me, gives an image of losing control, and breaking down.
      Ahhhh, okay. For the record, for me 'tears + losing control + breaking down' = sobbing (and possibly wailing, gnashing of teeth optional), sooooo... there's that, i guess.

      Good luck with your DVR. Mine is host to the devil, I swear it is. As an example, I had no idea of an upcoming marathon, because my DVR has recently decided that showing me any shows farther ahead than today in the guide is beneath it.
      Have you tried kicking it?
      Last edited by DEM; 17 September 2006, 11:29 AM.

      Comment


        responding to Dems2006. and welcome.
        Spoiler:
        Originally posted by Dems2006
        1. When the ship is reported missing, NONE of SG1 comment on the fact that 'Sam' is on that ship. No individual concern is expressed for HER particular well being.
        indeed, there seemed to be a distinct lack of concern from everyone minus Sam the entire ep. i actually forgot she was on the ship the first time because no one reacted.
        The only reason I could allow her to be that emotionally distraught is if the 'gone for hours' comment implies that she was actually tortured and raped and is covering up for a lot more than merely watching someone get shot in front of her.
        thank you, i was beginning to think i was reading into it too far. a good REAL whumping would have been nice, not only because i'm a sucker for a whumped sam, but it actually would have made sense :gasp:. and it would have balanced out yet ANOTHER ep of Teal'c Torture™ and Mitchell Kung-Fu. i really don't understand why they beat around the bush like that. actually, i do, i just don't like it. obviously not asking for anything graphic, but more than one dubbed line of possible implication.
        4. Daniel is sitting in the commander's seat, while Sam tries to fix the ship...
        even if sam did need to fix the ship, Daniel IS NOT next in charge. and yes, she should have been on the bridge, barring other circumstances that we again were not shown.
        5. Sam doesn't get to use that great big brain of hers to get the warp drive or whatever back on, Vala rams in something and it works...So, what purpose does she serve working on the ship rather than sitting in the Commander's seat?
        THAT really bugged me. not only that Vala would do that--which is IC if not actually good--but that Sam seemed to shrug it off. oh, you almost destroyed up the ship? that's ok, no big. that seems to be par for the course now-a-days.
        My Episode...2. Sam speaks up immediately when her name is brought up, BEFORE the Captain, who could follow that with, 'It doesn't matter, I'm the captain and I'm in charge...' But Sam needed to take the opportunity to step into the breach immediately.
        indeed, i was rather annoyed when she didn't speak up right away. or, if not right away, immediately after Emerson instead of shrinking back. IIRC from eight years of development, Sam tends not to do that.
        8. Sam doesn't sit there waiting for the bad guy to get beamed out, but gets to have a fight with him...gets him on the ground, and then ORDERS Vala/Daniel to lock onto his signal and beam him into outer space.
        <offically starts searching for scribe to write this> oh, come on, pleeeeeeeeeeease?
        sigpic
        "Out of the Abyss" (SJ Angst)....................Best New Author.................."Else Close the Wall Up" (Sam)
        Hic Comitas Regit. Welcome to Samanda.

        Comment


          I think Amanda did just fine with the scene.
          Spoiler:
          I would have been upset if they hadn't had her react at all. I mean, my goodness, one of her comrades was shot, point blank in front of her...and then again repeatedly (uh baddie, the dude was already dead when you SHOT HIM IN THE HEART). If she hadn't cried a little...I would have gone to Bridge myself and beat the living crap outa the writers and PTB for NOT showing how that affected Sam.


          Sam while a phenominal solider is a very caring and compassionate human being and to not let that show in an eps like this would have been a disservice to Sam and to Amanda, imho.
          sigpic
          I prefer to be called Sunny, Sun or SK. Thanks.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Dems2006
            Hi all,

            I rarely post here or anywhere for that matter, but wanted to comment on this episode because my reaction was so visceral.

            Spoiler:
            I hated it. I purposely watched the episode without reading any spoilers because I wanted to view it without any negative thoughts going in.

            Here are my reasons.

            1. When the ship is reported missing, NONE of SG1 comment on the fact that 'Sam' is on that ship. No individual concern is expressed for HER particular well being.

            Daniel and Teal'c rarely, if ever show emotional concern/investment in Carter. This episode lent itself to that, but there was nothing there.

            2. Sam crying in front of the crew. I don't know who to blame for this scene, it could be the writer, it could be the director or it could even be AT wanting to take a rare opportunity to "ACT!" To sink her teeth into something. (Who could blame her since these opportunities are so rare)

            But it was completely and totally inappropriate. She was now the Commander of the entire crew, responsible for their well being. Her job was to strut in there and take over, reassure and LEAD. Her personal feelings needed to be left at the door --

            The only reason I could allow her to be that emotionally distraught is if the 'gone for hours' comment implies that she was actually tortured and raped and is covering up for a lot more than merely watching someone get shot in front of her.

            Otherwise, it made no sense and was completely inappropriate in those circumstances. (I do agree with the people who would have loved a scene inbetween where Carter kicks a door and cries before walking into that room, but otherwise, nada)

            3. She's never physically harmed, merely threatened, at least on screen. Teal'c gets tortured, Mitchell gets into a fight, but Sam gets a guy standing over her with a gun and 'threatening' her... Big whoop. She needed to get physical somewhere and kick some ass. (This isn't a reason to hate an episode, just a personal desire...)

            4. Daniel is sitting in the commander's seat, while Sam tries to fix the ship...

            1. The ship's gotta have an engineer that can work on it...
            2. Sam should have been there, directing Daniel and Vala how to fix it while COMMANDING...(delegation is one of the necessary evils of command)

            5. Sam doesn't get to use that great big brain of hers to get the warp drive or whatever back on, Vala rams in something and it works...So, what purpose does she serve working on the ship rather than sitting in the Commander's seat?

            My episode

            1. When Daniel/Teal'c discover that SAM is on the ship and could be injured/dead, there's a specific, emotional reaction to this thought.

            Daniel 'Sam's on that ship...'

            Teal'c 'Colonel Carter is a warrior...'

            Mitchell 'When do we leave...'

            Sorry, but the rescuing the ship and crew is not the 'emotional' thread that should be driving these characters. Rather it's the personal, even if that's selfish, it's still more real for the audience.

            2. Sam speaks up immediately when her name is brought up, BEFORE the Captain, who could follow that with, 'It doesn't matter, I'm the captain and I'm in charge...' But Sam needed to take the opportunity to step into the breach immediately.

            3. Remove the sexual comments or make them the real threat that they are. In reality, if the bad guy finds Sam attractive and wants her, he will have her. She's his captive and he can do as he pleases. Rape is a reality of life and even more a reality of war. There's no, 'you so pretty, you so pretty, but I'm going to look and not touch.'

            4. Sam gets whumped...really whumped...refuses to give in...then they kill the commander, and bring in the next crew member, kill him, bring in another crew member...and then maybe she begins to stall for time to avoid losing her entire crew...

            Here's the deal -- Jack killed Sam to save the SGC..that's reality (He wouldn't do it to save himself, but he would do it to save everyone else)

            In Star Trek Next Gen (Yes, I'm a nerd, bear with me) Troi wanted to make Command rank -- She kept failing her test -- What was the test? Get Geordi to fix the engines to save the ship even though it meant ordering him to certain death...

            The good of the many outweigh the good of the few...

            5. When Sam is brought back, she is bloody and bruised, but not broken. She CALMLY informs the crew that their Captain died bravely defending the ship and passes out some orders...

            6. We see her working slowly, she gets called on it, and the bad guy hurts her and threatens to do continue more of the same...she continues to work slowly and is abused as a result...

            7. When Daniel and Vala find her, it's a bit less comic relief and more, Daniel to Sam 'You look like [email protected]#@$ are you okay???' Sam gets to say, 'I'm fine, I've got a plan, this is what we're going to do...'

            8. Sam doesn't sit there waiting for the bad guy to get beamed out, but gets to have a fight with him...gets him on the ground, and then ORDERS Vala/Daniel to lock onto his signal and beam him into outer space.

            9. Sam is sitting in command of the ship, stalling for time, WANTING to repair the engines, but knowing that that's no longer HER reality. As commander, she needs to delegate -- She gets to competently order the crew to fire weapons and fake out the baddies, and argue with Daniel/Vala to hurry up and fix the ship --

            That's the way I would have written it --

            2.
            That would be a great ep. but it's a little unreal too!

            @ Sun on the tears: Yeah, totally agree with you. Sam cares of everybody, she knows of knew. She's strong and a soldier, but she's quite emotional person through - which makes her sooo real. As said it's only natural that Sam cries in that moment!
            Last edited by MickSpeed; 17 September 2006, 12:05 PM.

            Thank you SO much Amanda! (Icons by various great artists)

            Comment


              Just in case anyone is interested there is a "Loose Ends/Forgotten Beginnings" ficathon on LJ. It's not Samcentric, but there's no reason why people's requests can't be Samcentric. So it's a way to get more Samfic.

              Here for information.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Agent_Dark
                She is teh rox0r
                what does that mean? really?





                sally
                sally

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                Comment


                  Originally posted by ann_sgcfan

                  Spoiler:
                  My final comment … after a long winded post …AT always performs the drama/angst wonderfully and really pulls the audience into the scene. So I look forward to seeing the episode when it comes on again.

                  That's one of the many, MANY reasons I enjoy watching her perform. She's just amazing.

                  Comment


                    I know what you all are thinking. When oh when will Mary Beth share her Ooooobery thoughts with regard to "that moment" in Company of Thieves???

                    Well, wait no longer my friends!!!
                    Spoiler:
                    I'm moderately amused by the notion that Sam was acting out of character here because canonly, Sam has reacted to moments of loss and frustration with tears as necessary. Frankly, had she NOT responded with some sort of emotional expression, that would have been extremely out of character. But let's take a moment and look at what happened leading up it, okay?

                    Recapping...she was wonked on the head and was a little woozy, waking up long after everyone else had. Moments after returning to consciousness, she's dragged up onto the bridge with Emerson and told to turn the transponder off. She holds her ground as best she can and then watches in horror as Emerson is murdered. Thoroughly.

                    Here's my theory as to what happened between Emerson's death and her return to the hold. Avateo I'll bet ensured that Emerson's corpse stayed put and in her line of sight to reinforce how serious he was about getting what he wanted. I'll also bet he made a few less than subtle references about what he'd like to be doing to her, although I don't believe he raped her or roughed her up. He was going for psychological trauma...mind game stuff...because he needed to focus on his situation with the Lucian Alliance. I also wonder that with this mindgame he was trying to play that perhaps he had Sam take care of the body, further emphasizing what would happen to the rest of the crew or to her should she betray him.

                    So, Sam worked through grit teeth to get the transponder out, probably willing herself not to look over at Emerson but still knowing he was right there next to her all the while being forced to listen to Avateo make his overtures. Or rather half-listening. Her mind was probably already working on her plan, because she knew that without a transponder, there'd be no way for the SGC to find them.

                    She returns to the hold a few hours later and goes off to a corner for a moment. My sense was that she put up a good front while she was gone but then it all came crashing in on her and she needed a few seconds to deal. She didn't stand up in front of everyone and bawl. She didn't whimper and weep throughout the entire episode. She wordlessly answers Marks' question about Emerson and then took a moment to vent her sadness and rage so she could compose herself and do what she had to do. The entire crew's lives were at stake.

                    But then, this is what she does...she compartmentalizes. She's human and although she's experienced war and loss, she still feels. And that's a good thing. I don't want her to get to a point where she's so hardened by her experiences that she no longer feels. A friend and colleague was senselessly murdered in front of her face and she gave herself a moment to feel it so she could move on and do what had to be done.

                    Avateo's plan failed. He didn't win the mindgame...Sam did. Except for the moment she took to vent her sadness and anger, she was fully collected and fully in charge. She formulated the plan to free Daniel and Vala...well actually she didn't formulate it specifically for them as they weren't there but rather for someone...anyone to take advantage of the opportunity she presented (she knew she couldn't do it herself because she was a high value hostage with guards on her at all times). She defied Avateo and continued her work, always stalling to give the others a chance to do their thing.

                    Avateo realizes what she's done and yet again, the barrel of a gun is pointed at her head. And yet again, she is calm, cool and collected.

                    So my point is that I have no problem with Sam taking a moment to decompress. It's not like she could go to her private room and do it...she was thrust in with the others in the hold and she sought out a moment of privacy for herself to vent what she pent up for the last few hours so she could do what she does best...and that is be the heroine that she always is.
                    Last edited by Uber; 17 September 2006, 01:37 PM.

                    ...You're ALWAYS Welcome in Samanda: Amanda's Community of New Fans and Old Friends...

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by KatG
                      I think a lot changed. I think it's the reason that the Ori are in our galaxy and I think it's the reason we have Cam in charge of SG-1 and Vala as a member of the team.

                      In fact, I'm working on a fix it fic at the moment, incorporating some ideas I had with some that ReganX had.
                      do we need spoiler tags for 'moebius'? i'll put them in there just in case.

                      Spoiler:
                      if it wasn't for that, 'close enough' line, i don't think i'd question whether the univers sg1 we're seeing now is exactly the same as the pre-moebius universe. i honestly think that little quip 'close enough' was just a joke. a 'simpsons' joke too.

                      sometimes when i think of moebius, i see it like any other time travel ep; it is erased when the timeline is fixed. other times, i see the show we're watching now as out of kilter because the timeline wasn't restored *exactly* as we'd known it.

                      if they'd only kept that 'close enough' line out, would any of us be questioning things?

                      personally, i think everything *was* put back in order, if you follow what a moebius strip is really about. and, i just can't see the writers disqualifying 8 years of their show so they could have their jollies in going wherever/doing whatever they want in stargate's history. it would really be stupid beyond belief to dismiss 8 years of storylines. but that's my logic.



                      sally
                      sally

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                      Comment


                        Originally posted by majorsal
                        do we need spoiler tags for 'moebius'? i'll put them in there just in case.

                        Spoiler:
                        if it wasn't for that, 'close enough' line, i don't think i'd question whether the univers sg1 we're seeing now is exactly the same as the pre-moebius universe. i honestly think that little quip 'close enough' was just a joke. a 'simpsons' joke too.

                        sometimes when i think of moebius, i see it like any other time travel ep; it is erased when the timeline is fixed. other times, i see the show we're watching now as out of kilter because the timeline wasn't restored *exactly* as we'd known it.

                        if they'd only kept that 'close enough' line out, would any of us be questioning things?

                        personally, i think everything *was* put back in order, if you follow what a moebius strip is really about. and, i just can't see the writers disqualifying 8 years of their show so they could have their jollies in going wherever/doing whatever they want in stargate's history. it would really be stupid beyond belief to dismiss 8 years of storylines. but that's my logic.



                        sally
                        Spoiler:
                        I don't think much changed. I'm thinking if they are wearing the exact same outfits they were at the end of 'Threads', things are pretty much the same. The fish? Hiding out for 8 years. Yep. Ok, maybe not. But I think the writers intended for things to go back the way they had been, fish or not.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by DEM

                          spoilers for s10's 'company of thieves'

                          I would
                          Spoiler:
                          Correct the sound level on Marks' "gone for hours line"
                          1 - Remove the line altogether
                          2 - Not use Danala™ (or anyone else) as "comedic relief"
                          3 - Re-work the "Carter finally has a moment to grieve for Emerson" beat, possibly by moving Carter or Marks
                          4 - Have Carter uselessly punch a wall ( Deejay!)

                          That's all for now.
                          Spoiler:
                          and then have -from the anti sam peeps- that she's out of control and acts like a newbie?

                          no matter what sam says or does, someone will always be there to complain about it. all the characters get this to some degree, but sam gets it the worst.

                          sam wasn't weeping; she was shedding a tear or two for a fellow officer that had been murdered in front of her. and, it happened because this officer had ordered her not to cooperate. i'd expect some guilt about that.

                          the only iffy thing about this scene was the timeline, which gave the impression something 'more' might have happened to sam after emerson got killed. maybe a scene was deleted? but if nothing extra happened, then maybe sam just started letting it out when she was being brought to her crew, who she had to tell their commanding officer had been murdered.

                          but whatever, i just don't see this as that much of a big deal. with the way this show is written now, ALL the characters come off iffy.




                          sally

                          sally

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                          Comment


                            Originally posted by majorsal
                            Spoiler:


                            but whatever, i just don't see this as that much of a big deal. with the way this show is written now, ALL the characters come off iffy.

                            Spoiler:
                            And sorry to say, but that's just bad writing.

                            Comment


                              as to the weeping
                              Spoiler:
                              i've been in a situation where someone dies. and i can control my emotions...but then someone says something, asks me something, brings the topic up, and the grief and i lose it

                              that's how i see sam reacting. she was ok compartmentalizing emmerson's death. until marks asked 'where is the colonel' and then it hit her and she knew she'd have to break the news
                              Where in the World is George Hammond?


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                              Comment


                                Originally posted by DEM
                                gotta amend something:


                                Danala is ™ golfbooy. had to go back and search the ep thread to confirm the attribution.
                                i'm rather fond of Vaniel as a term
                                Where in the World is George Hammond?


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