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    From Part 2

    Need someone to operate alien technology?

    Spoiler:


    Need someone to lead the troops?

    Spoiler:



    Need someone to kick butt?

    Spoiler:


    Need someone to save the earth, to save the galaxy?

    Spoiler:


    Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Carter is the one you need!!

    Spoiler:


    The following is a whinge so if you’re not wanting anything negative please do not read.

    Spoiler:
    “They don’t know what to do with Sam Carter”

    Damn but that phrase has had me irked for quite a while. Have you ever heard anything so lame in all your life?

    These are professional writers FCOL, they have created a multidimensional character with many skills and abilities, who is a nice well balanced person. The character has unlimited potential to be taken in any directional they want. So what direction did they choose? WALLPAPER!!!

    When I hear such puerile statements from professionals my first thoughts are A) you’re not even trying or B) you aren’t good at your chosen profession. Neither is a ringing endorsement in my eyes.
    -

    Comment


      Spoilers for OTC {Off topic (non-Sam-specific) chatter}
      Originally posted by Rachel500
      Spoiler:
      Me too, and most of the time the men don't even seem to understand that what happens is discrimination...

      Interestingly I had a response on another thread to something I posted that basically said 'I agree the decision to remove Sam from the leadership was gender related but I don't understand how this is discrimination'...I was a little stumped for a reply quite frankly but I think its a good example of how blind people are to it.
      Wow. I wouldn't know quite what to do
      Spoiler:
      beyond just staring at the person if they said something like that in front of me. If they really don't get it (to the extent displayed by their statement), then talking to them is likely to do less than any good. And ranting at them will probably just polarize them away from you... which would accomplish the opposite of the goal.
      Originally posted by Skydiver
      Spoiler:
      they are very blind to it.

      and that's the saddest part, that it's so engrained that it's accepted without question.

      and what's even sadder, every time a show uses and supports gender based discrimination (which is no different than age or race or religious although people are more sensitive to teh latter two) they help perpetrate it.

      whenever shows like stargate write gender based discrimination into the show and it's accepted and never questioned, they make it easier for the next generation to keep it going.

      so, in 10 years, when these writers' kids are growing up and want a particular job and are told 'no sorry, no girls allowed' or in 20 years when thier daughters realize that they're getting paid LESS than their male counterparts, they have only themselves to blame.

      changes are not made over night, nor are they made by only one person. but every little contributing factor, every little accepted instance, just makes it easier and easier to keep the discrimination going.

      by not even thinking about the issue and dismissing it out of hand (heck by dismissing fan crit as 'women with issues') tptb are making thier gender bias known and perpetrating it.
      Excellent post, Sky. Tried to rep you, but was locked out of the green jello fridge.
      Originally posted by ReganX
      That's the problem. Some people see gender discrimination as the norm, acceptable even. They don't see it because it doesn't occur to them that there is anything to see or because they choose not to see it. Because of this, they cannot see that Sam has been wronged or empathize with her.

      If, hypothetically speaking, the President and Joint Chiefs were preparing for going public about the stargate and demoted Mitchell in favour of Sam or a new female character because they thought that a woman would be better for public relations, how long do you think it would be before some of those who can't/won't see that Sam has been discriminated against were loudly objecting to the injustice of Mitchell losing his command because of his gender?
      Great analogy, Regan - and they'd *never* do it (demote Mitchell *and* give Sam command back). *Never*.

      What bothers me? That lots of folks seem to think that same would be *ok* with how things turned out. That she'd just be *ok* with it. Just, 'No Big Deal', 'Didn't Really Want It Anyway', 'Oh, Well, on to other parts of my life'. That's not how most folks I know would react.
      Originally posted by Tok'Ra Hostess
      Which is why I'd love it if the PTB had the balls to (Spoilers for Insiders)
      Spoiler:
      Have Landry tell Mitchell that he's not in favor of women in command. His mysogeny might explain his wife/daughter troubles, too
      .
      Would they have the guts to put the issue out there? Probably not. But it would make for some really great B-line stories and subtext under the scifi A episode storylines.
      Originally posted by jckfan55
      A thought occurs. It Cam were a woman, Camilla Mitchell, say--and she had the same "qualifications" and exhibited the same recklessness as Cameron, how much do you want to bet we'd be hearing a lot about Mitchell's incompetence from those who now say Mitchell is just great?
      Camilla would be shredded.
      Originally posted by RealmOfX
      They don’t know what to do with the character of Sam Carter.


      I have heard that line and various versions of it for quite a while now and my answer is

      “Why the hell not?”

      Do you need something blown up? Well how big a boom do you need?

      Spoiler:


      Need someone proficient with weapons? Need a sharpshooter?

      Spoiler:


      Need a pilot?

      Spoiler:


      Need to break out of a place? Need to break in?

      Spoiler:



      Need a spokesperson / liaison?

      Spoiler:
      Excellent posts, Regan! And I couldn't agree more with your final statement in your third post.
      Last edited by astrogeologist; 04 August 2006, 09:10 AM.

      Comment


        what if you were the writer of a show. say a middle aged man who was...follically challenged. And you run a show for a couple of years and then are called into the boss' office and told 'yeah, we know that you've been doing this job for a while. You were part of the crew for 6 years, the show runner for two...but you see, our research shows that the best show runners are men with full heads of hair and...yeah, so sorry, you don't quite measure up. so here's Tom, he's a nice film student, just graduated last year. I know he's young, but you wouldn't believe the stuff he did in school. Oh and did i tellyou that his mother died last year?

        well anyway, Tom is gonna run the show now. we do want you to stay around. see, we need another writer and i'm sure you can help tom out, now can't you?????

        I wonder how 'sensitive' folks would be then????
        Where in the World is George Hammond?


        sigpic

        Comment


          Wow, RoX! Someone give RoX some blue jello (because I don't have any with me )!

          Those posts were so great, and a perfect example of what a great character she is. Sure, she's flawed. They all are. But she's developed, she's paid her dues, she's done the heavy lifting and she's earned a spot as one of the main characters of the show. Considering that character carried a fourth of the weight for ten years, one would expect that she'd be given an opportunity to shine during its final one. I dunno. We'll see after tonight and "Uninvited," I suppose.

          For instance, for "Insiders" and "Uninvited"...
          Spoiler:

          While I squeed with the rest of you yesterday at that vid, and I'm interested to know how they'll write the dynamic between Sam and Ba'al (considering she's the one who has had the most recent and frequent experiences with him), I am still worried that, while giving Sam something to do, they're essentially going to make her ineffective in her duties in order to make Cameron look like he's rightfully in charge.

          The same goes for "Uninvited." All of the sitting in Landry's chair and being the one in charge at the SGC will be horribly be for naught, if in the end she has to call back Daddy Landry and Brother Cam to help her out of a bind - the kind of bind with which she has 10x more experience than the two of them combined. If they've written that little moment in an effort to drive home Landry's little heart-to-heart with Cameron about being in charge, then that may honestly be the last straw for me.

          They didn't make Cameron the hero in Morpheus OR PegPro, which is a definite plus. So maybe it won't come across that way this time.

          I'm still optimistic based on what they showed at AOL, though. I think it's pretty dang funny that Sam's shown in so much of the two episodes, considering all that's been said about not knowing what to do with her. But I'm struggling to remain optimistic, yet pragmatic/realistic when it comes to how they're going to deal with Sam being in charge of anything. Like Landry, will Sam become the vessel through which they pimp Cameron - by nullifying the very past that RoX mentioned, by making her impotent? I sincerely hope not.


          But back to the positive:

          Spoiler:

          Sam sits in Landry's chair (the symbolism ) and is entrusted to take care of the SGC while they're away. If nothing else, it will be interesting to see how she operates under command. And I have no doubt that a lot of that competence will come from AT, even if the writing doesn't provide it.

          Comment


            Originally posted by ReganX
            Spoiler:
            I wonder if he would have a problem being bumped from show runner to writer if he had to take time away for family reasons.

            Why would anybody be happy to lose a position they had worked hard for years for, especially to somebody with a fraction of their experience?
            Exactly. Good point Regan. I so wish someone would give TPTB a taste of their own medicine.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Rachel500
              Me too, and most of the time the men don't even seem to understand that what happens is discrimination...

              Interestingly I had a response on another thread to something I posted that basically said 'I agree the decision to remove Sam from the leadership was gender related but I don't understand how this is discrimination'...I was a little stumped for a reply quite frankly but I think its a good example of how blind people are to it.
              I saw that other thread and you did a fine job. Open their eyes Rachel!

              Comment


                Originally posted by L.A. Doyle
                Exactly. Good point Regan. I so wish someone would give TPTB a taste of their own medicine.
                i think, if they were to experience the discriminatino, they would be more sensitive to it.

                I've worked in a place where the women were paid less 'because they don't have families to support like the men do'. where female account executives were given 30 clients to balance (30 smaller ones) while the males each got 5-10 big clients...same amount of money but the women had to work harder to get thier job done.

                where i'm working now, i don't go out and party wtih the guys, i've never been over to my boss's house, never really socialized with him, but my co-worker - a guy - has.

                and even if i happen to have a few more skilles than he does, if they decide to let one of us go, who do you think it'll be? if we need to order something, i have my co-worker take it in cause the boss will listen to HIM while he blows me off

                I live with gender bias on a daily basis.

                peopel seem to think that gender based discriminatin is things like 'sleep with me or you're fired'...no, it's not.

                it's women getting paid 70 cents on the dollar to a man. It's women being passed over for a promotion cause 'well, she just got married so she'll get pregnant and we'll lose her for a year'. it's a quiet, pervasive attitude that perpetrates teh feeling that women are second class citizens
                Where in the World is George Hammond?


                sigpic

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Skydiver
                  what if you were the writer of a show. say a middle aged man who was...follically challenged. And you run a show for a couple of years and then are called into the boss' office and told 'yeah, we know that you've been doing this job for a while. You were part of the crew for 6 years, the show runner for two...but you see, our research shows that the best show runners are men with full heads of hair and...yeah, so sorry, you don't quite measure up. so here's Tom, he's a nice film student, just graduated last year. I know he's young, but you wouldn't believe the stuff he did in school. Oh and did i tellyou that his mother died last year?

                  well anyway, Tom is gonna run the show now. we do want you to stay around. see, we need another writer and i'm sure you can help tom out, now can't you?????

                  I wonder how 'sensitive' folks would be then????
                  Perhaps Tom can have broken his arm/leg/nail trying to push the boss' child out of the way of a speeding car and, when offered a job of his choice by the grateful boss, had the sense (arrogance?) to request the top job.

                  Sig courtesy of RepliCartertje

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by RealmOfX
                    They don’t know what to do with the character of Sam Carter.


                    I have heard that line and various versions of it for quite a while now and my answer is

                    “Why the hell not?”

                    snip
                    Excellent post Rox
                    Now if we could only get TPTB to actually see it and realize what they've been doing

                    but I think the only way they would realize it, is when thier daughters complain to them that they got turned down for the promotion and it went to the new kid on the block. *shakes head*
                    sigpic

                    my fanfic

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by the dancer of spaz
                      Those posts were so great, and a perfect example of what a great character she is. Sure, she's flawed. They all are. But she's developed, she's paid her dues, she's done the heavy lifting and she's earned a spot as one of the main characters of the show. Considering that character carried a fourth of the weight for ten years, one would expect that she'd be given an opportunity to shine during its final one.
                      That's right. She's EARNED it. And those posts were wonderful RoX!

                      For instance, for "Insiders" and "Uninvited"...
                      Spoiler:



                      The same goes for "Uninvited." All of the sitting in Landry's chair and being the one in charge at the SGC will be horribly be for naught, if in the end she has to call back Daddy Landry and Brother Cam to help her out of a bind - the kind of bind with which she has 10x more experience than the two of them combined.
                      We'll have to wait and see and hope they write it the way it SHOULD be written. Going back to RoX's posts, you don't need anyone else. Obviously Sam can do ANYTHING!

                      And just another little thing. When I go to other threads they seem to think that only the Sam fans have a problem with this. "Oh, TPTB didn't want to make Mitchell a full colonel because they didn't want to tick off the Sam fans." or "You just want more Sam in the spotlight." Come on. Seriously. It's obvious by the WSL poll that way more people than just Samandans feel she should lead...this was mentioned the other day. Also, any fan of the show, casual viewer or not, should be upset. Whether I'm a 'Sam fan' or not is irrelevant. It's the principal.
                      Last edited by L.A. Doyle; 04 August 2006, 10:21 AM.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Skydiver
                        i think, if they were to experience the discriminatino, they would be more sensitive to it.

                        I've worked in a place where the women were paid less 'because they don't have families to support like the men do'. where female account executives were given 30 clients to balance (30 smaller ones) while the males each got 5-10 big clients...same amount of money but the women had to work harder to get thier job done.

                        where i'm working now, i don't go out and party wtih the guys, i've never been over to my boss's house, never really socialized with him, but my co-worker - a guy - has.

                        and even if i happen to have a few more skilles than he does, if they decide to let one of us go, who do you think it'll be? if we need to order something, i have my co-worker take it in cause the boss will listen to HIM while he blows me off

                        I live with gender bias on a daily basis.

                        peopel seem to think that gender based discriminatin is things like 'sleep with me or you're fired'...no, it's not.

                        it's women getting paid 70 cents on the dollar to a man. It's women being passed over for a promotion cause 'well, she just got married so she'll get pregnant and we'll lose her for a year'. it's a quiet, pervasive attitude that perpetrates teh feeling that women are second class citizens
                        And what's more frightening is the fact that women are prone to perpetuate the problem, and hinder progress. Rather than developing support systems throughout the office (or whatever) with other women who experience the same discrimination, women have to watch their backs, because we never know when someone else is going to turn what we've said against us, if it means they get to move forward.

                        Luckily, I haven't experienced this issue quite so profoundly firsthand. Part of it, I suppose, is my lack of life experience and a choice made long ago not to tolerate it.

                        Nevertheless, the very nature of women makes it even more difficult for anything to be done about this issue, when it comes to the microcosm of the workplace.

                        It's an interesting issue, where the glass ceiling is still prevalent for everyone - not just women - and members of the minority, whatever that may be, can turn out to be our worst enemies rather than our allies. And, let's face it, no one truly wants to help a group of people who don't seem willing or able to help themselves - whether it's young adults, women, or members of a racial minority. As someone who fits into all three categories, I find that becoming abundantly clear.

                        That's why, while I do have a lot of beef with what the male powers have done, I do continue to take exceptional umbrage to the fact that the president of the network is a woman. And, for the past year specifically, she seems to have taken a somewhat hands-on approach to the regular goingson of the Stargate franchise. It's possible that that's just how she wants to come off in interviews. It's possible that it was completely out of her hands.

                        Still, I highly doubt that she didn't have a say in big decisions that would be made, and that there aren't decisionmakers throughout MGM and Sci Fi who aren't also female. If they're not willing to stick up for that aspect of their products, and they're not willing to speak out against the status quo and go against the grain, then we honestly can't expect anyone else on board to do the same.

                        Comment


                          RoX that was great you did a wonderfull job with the 3 parts of who Sam is. I loved it and it made me appreciate Sam even more. ooh she is really an awsome lady!!!!
                          She just got it all. And no she isn't perfect, she also makes mistakes and has her faults. That makes her even more wonderfull. The fact that she just can be your girl-next-door but in the meantime do all those things. The world needs more Samantha Carters!! It would be a nice place to be. It would be a place of peace and of love!!!

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by RepliCartertje
                            The world needs more Samantha Carters!! It would be a nice place to be. It would be a place of peace and of love!!!
                            I am Samantha Carter.... That'd be a great place to live RCtje!

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Rachel500
                              Me too, and most of the time the men don't even seem to understand that what happens is discrimination...

                              Interestingly I had a response on another thread to something I posted that basically said 'I agree the decision to remove Sam from the leadership was gender related but I don't understand how this is discrimination'...I was a little stumped for a reply quite frankly but I think its a good example of how blind people are to it.
                              Originally posted by Skydiver
                              they are very blind to it.

                              and that's the saddest part, that it's so engrained that it's accepted without question.

                              and what's even sadder, every time a show uses and supports gender based discrimination (which is no different than age or race or religious although people are more sensitive to teh latter two) they help perpetrate it.

                              whenever shows like stargate write gender based discrimination into the show and it's accepted and never questioned, they make it easier for the next generation to keep it going.

                              so, in 10 years, when these writers' kids are growing up and want a particular job and are told 'no sorry, no girls allowed' or in 20 years when thier daughters realize that they're getting paid LESS than their male counterparts, they have only themselves to blame.

                              changes are not made over night, nor are they made by only one person. but every little contributing factor, every little accepted instance, just makes it easier and easier to keep the discrimination going.

                              by not even thinking about the issue and dismissing it out of hand (heck by dismissing fan crit as 'women with issues') tptb are making thier gender bias known and perpetrating it.
                              Sadly, all these posts about Sam remind me of the comment Amanda made about Ben and Joe getting to fly with the Thunderbirds and Amanda being told "We didn't think you'd be interested". I mean here this woman has been with the franchise six years longer than either of these men and yet they didn't even think to ask her if she'd like to participate. I know she may joke about it being a boy's club and learning how to play golf, but after last year's season of Stargate, I definitely have to wonder how much truth is really in her comments. I know Torri has made similiar remarks.

                              It would definitely be interesting to go to a con with Amanda, Teryl, Torri, Rachel and Claudia as guests and see what their comments are about the Stargate Boy's Club.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by ForeverSg1
                                Sadly, all this stuff with Sam reminds me of the comment Amanda made about Ben and Joe getting to fly with the Thunderbirds and Amanda being told "They didn't think she'd be interested".
                                They didn't think she'd be interested? Heck, I'm interested! God bless her for putting up with the Boy's Club. Not only does her character have to deal with it, so does she.

                                Comment

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