Announcement

**Skydiver** · 13 July 2006, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by Rachel500

I agree with your interpretation. Whenever I've read comments in interviews or reports from cons where AT has stated she doesn't want to be just The Girl for the Lead Guy or seen pining for 'sir' and being googly-eyed, I've always taken it to mean she doesn't want Sam to become completely defined by her feelings for a guy. There's a lot more to the character than simply ship. (And I do say this as a S/J shipper myself).

that's how i see it too.

she certainly enjoys the aspect of the character and acknowledges that human interaction is part of the show. but she wants to be MORE than just a foil for jack. she wants to be strong and be SAM too.

**Skydiver** · 13 July 2006, 04:45 AM

Originally posted by scarimor

Leadership issue:

There is nothing that the writers can do now to ameloriate their decision. The institutional sexism these men demonstrated when putting a man who'd never seen a stargate before in a leading role on a SG team, pushing aside the experienced woman, simply has to stand as a blight on the show, a testament to the industry's institutional gender bias, and a reminder that given the option, people will be stupid.

It's there. No amount of scribbling and fudging and revisionist rationalising can change it. They did it. They exposed themselves to inevitable contempt and ridicule. It's done and the shame is stuck there.

They should just ignore it now rather than dig themselves in deeper, but I doubt they can figure that out either.

same here.

they literally can't/wont' see just how sexist and demeaning and discriminatory their actions are.

backstage politics aside the ONLY reason for cam to be the boss is gender bias, plain and simple.

now, if Sam had been a male or even female of color, transferred and came back to discover that s/he had been supplanted by a white male....they wouldnt' do it. Most people are aware of the appearances of racism adn try to avoid it.

but gender based discrimination is so ingrained into people that they simply don't see the ickiness that they are perpetrating. And, in the cases of these writers, they won't likely see it for another 20 years, until thier daughters grow up and come to complain to daddy about how she was passed over for a promotion or how the guy that was hired 3 years after she was is now earning more than she is.

**Skydiver** · 13 July 2006, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by WhatFateAlmondRoca

During one of her Q&A sessions at Shore Leave, AT said

Spoiler:

color me so unsurprised....

yes. she did mention that. she went to coop and said

Spoiler:

i'm glad she spoke up, but it's rather depressing that she'd have to. a good show runner would already be aware of this

**Skydiver** · 13 July 2006, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by scarimor

A thing to add: while this has done no harm to AT's image (who remains as cool as ever), it dosn't do Ben Browder any favours. No matter how good he is about it, he will be associated with the sexist decision because he plays the ill-conceived male character which was written to diss the existing female one. It's not his fault - there's nothing he can do about it; but it's unpalatable.

yeah, poor ben.

i've never met teh man but i sincerely doubt taht any of this leadership mess is his doing.

IMHO, it's either coming from the sexist folks at skiffy that belive 'male lead must be leader' or it's coming from the writers that are oblivious to the fact that they are promoting and perpetrating gender based bias on an internatioal level

**WhatFateAlmondRoca** · 13 July 2006, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by Skydiver

yes. she did mention that. she went to coop and said

Spoiler:

i'm glad she spoke up, but it's rather depressing that she'd have to. a good show runner would already be aware of this

Incredibly depressing, as in dashing-hopes-for-a-better-season-10 depressing.

<----shakes head

**ReganX** · 13 July 2006, 05:04 AM

Originally posted by Skydiver

And, in the cases of these writers, they won't likely see it for another 20 years, until thier daughters grow up and come to complain to daddy about how she was passed over for a promotion or how the guy that was hired 3 years after she was is now earning more than she is.

They'll have played their part in creating an environment where gender discrimination is accepted.

Regardless of how many excuses are thrown around about how they never would have had Sam in command in Season Eight except for budget reasons, they had to have the new lead actor playing the leader of SG-1, Amanda Tapping wasn't around for the first five episodes, etc, it does not erase the facts.

1. Sam was in command of SG-1 in Season Eight. It doesn't matter if this was because of budget constraints, RDA's reduced schedule or because dancing elves made them do it. The fact remains that she was in command of SG-1 and she was shown to have done a good job as team leader.

2. The lead actor did not have to play the team leader. If I remember the Season Eight credits correctly, the lead actor did not play the leader of SG-1, he played the base commander. Even if it was essential that Ben Browder have first spot in the credits, Mitchell need not have had leadership of SG-1.

3. Several scenarios, all an improvement over "Sam left for Area 51 a week ago" have been suggested as alternatives. Sam could have been absent due to injury, or a temporary assignment.

4. Mitchell was introduced as a character who had no offworld experience and no field experience that we know of. He was also shown as a character who was given his job because he decided that he deserved it. He could easily have been introduced as a full colonel with several years of experience commanding an SG team, but he wasn't.

5. The experienced female was shunted out of command in favour of the inexperienced male.

6. None of the characters were allowed to object or even to comment on this.

TPTB's decision was doubly sexist. Not only did they demote a female character who had rightfully earned command of SG-1 in favour of a character who got command through a combination of pulling strings and dumb luck, but by not showing that it was wrong for Sam to have lost command, they showed that gender discrimination is acceptable.

Gender discrimination in the workplace is a huge problem but had they provided a positive example by keeping Sam in charge, TPTB could have played a part, however small, in a solution. Instead, they have contributed to the problem.

I hope that TPTB remember this if any of their daughters are ever discriminated against because of their gender.

**ReganX** · 13 July 2006, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by Skydiver

yes. she did mention that. she went to coop and said

Spoiler:

i'm glad she spoke up, but it's rather depressing that she'd have to. a good show runner would already be aware of this

Good for Amanda!

You're right that it is depressing that RCC wouldn't already have been aware of this.

I understand that they've brought in new characters, that there is a temptation to focus on these characters and a need to integrate them into the show, but a good show runner should know how to balance introducing new characters without taking focus away from the established characters and to develop new bonds without undermining the existing connection between the team.

Okay, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c have a connection that Mitchell and Vala are not a part of. That is not a bad thing. They, along with Jack, had been a tight knit group for eight years before Season Nine. It is unrealistic for Mitchell to be part of the family after so short a time.

Show a gradually developing trust and friendship between the established characters and the newbies. Let the newbies be aware that the other three share a closeness that they are not a part of. Let the established characters struggle a bit with learning to be on a team with people outside their circle.

It's important that Sam, Daniel and Teal'c develop friendships with Mitchell and Vala, but it is just as important that the connection the three of them share with each other and with Jack not be minimized just because it doesn't include the newcomers.

**WhatFateAlmondRoca** · 13 July 2006, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by ReganX

They'll have played their part in creating an environment where gender discrimination is accepted.

<snip>

I hope that TPTB remember this if any of their daughters are ever discriminated against because of their gender.

All good points. I would love to see AT exec produce, write, direct. I'd like to see a show into which she has invested her talents, skills and experience. Whatever project she chooses would be high quality, intelligent, etc. Something we would all support. At Shore Leave:

Spoiler:

Go AT!!!

**WhatFateAlmondRoca** · 13 July 2006, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by ReganX

Good for Amanda!

You're right that it is depressing that RCC wouldn't already have been aware of this.

You know what's depressing is: how can they NOT be aware? I really wonder if they ARE aware and are doing their thing anyway? Can they really be that out of touch?

Nintendoes, people. Nintendoes. They go through anything no matter how dense....

**stargate barbie** · 13 July 2006, 05:49 AM

the character that i like seeing and would most like to see get more screen time with sam in a non shippy way is teal'c. now i do love the dynamic that she has with jack in a non shippy way too, but i think that i'm a bit biased there in that i feel that the ship and the friendship go together with them. and i do love seeing her friendship with daniel, but i just feel that they are too similar to make it interesting.

with teal'c, they don't have romantic feelings for each other (thats right sb, lure them into the trap

), they both have others (ha! more like alibi's!) that they have that kind of thing with so that kind of thing doesn't come into their relationship and they are very different people from very different societies, and i think that this is part of what makes their friendship so interesting. there's a lot of room for the friendship to evolve because they didn't really have anything obvious in common when they first met, and by knowing each other and learning from each other there is so much room for individual character development.

for example, on chulak, and as a jaffa in service to a goa'uld, females are not seen as warriors, and there's pretty much no such thing as a scientist. yet teal'c quickly grew to accept and respect sam. to sam, teal'c was the enemy, he came from a society where things that she knew all about seemed like goa'uld magic to him, he was unfamiliar with women like her and he was probably kind of scary and intimidating to her in the beginning because back then she was still young and somewhat naive. he probably had no idea how to deal with her either.

they were pretty much forced into being teammates, and neither one showed any problem with serving with a female warrior or a former enemy.

and they quickly developed a respect for each other, and through that became very close friends. i would have liked to see more of them becoming friends. (same goes for teal'c and daniel for that matter. although very different dynamic, more of a guilt/animosity thing goin' on there).
and i'd still like to see more of them together on screen. they're very cute when they're having space race type moments.

next post: team leadership issue!

**AmberLM** · 13 July 2006, 05:51 AM

Ya know, the more I hear about the behind the scenes politicking the more amazed I get that the show has made it this far (more or less) without selling out completely! I hate the fact that Teal'c barely has any screen time for developing personal relationships, I hate the fact that Daniel seems to have been reduced to Vala's comedy sidekick but most of all I hate the fact that it seems like every step of the way Amanda has had to fight for the character we all know and love to be counted as an equal. From the very beginning Amanda has advised the writers on how to portray Sam well as a woman and a soldier and I remember a time when they took those comments on board. Now it just seems that TPTB don't care about Sam any more. I admire Amanda even more after these last few seasons of messing Sam around on almost every issue, not just the ship; it would have driven me insane! The very fact that Amanda feels like she has to keep reminding the writers that Chris, Michael and herself are still a large part of the show really does not bode well for S10 or the future of Stargate IMO.

Hats off to Amanda though, I admire her persistence, courage and strength she has for fighting for Lt. Colonel Sam Carter!

**minigeek** · 13 July 2006, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by WhatFateAlmondRoca

You know what's depressing is: how can they NOT be aware? I really wonder if they ARE aware and are doing their thing anyway? Can they really be that out of touch?

They're aware. They just choose not to listen. They choose to work the stories and the characters without regard to anyone else's input, whether that be from the actors or the feedback they receive from fans. In short, they don't care. They've made their minds up, they think they know best and they've stuck their feet in the muck about it; they're not about to budge. Like Skydiver so often says, they have the mentality that we're all gonna watch what they give us and wer'e all gonna love it as much as they do, or else we're all of no consequence. Sad, but unfortunately true. You know what they say. An excess of pride goeth before a fall. And the bigger they are...

mg

**RealmOfX** · 13 July 2006, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by WhatFateAlmondRoca

All good points. I would love to see AT exec produce, write, direct. I'd like to see a show into which she has invested her talents, skills and experience. Whatever project she chooses would be high quality, intelligent, etc. Something we would all support. At Shore Leave:

Spoiler:

Go AT!!!

I know I would support such a project.

Interesting what AT said. Very, very interesting.

I'll second that - GO AT !!!

**KatG** · 13 July 2006, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by the dancer of spaz

A Continuation of the TV Zone article
(It is TV Zone, right KatG?

)...

Far as I know, but then you've got the magazine.

Originally posted by the dancer of spaz

First of all, I have to agree with her assessment on the buddy issues.

I totally understand if someone wants to use the argument that Sam and Vala are just too different to work. However, if you look at the history of the Stargate franchise, the writers have always gone out of their way to showcase two males who are COMPLETE opposites, and develop their friendships - sometimes at the expense of other dynamics. Look at Jack and Daniel, the great duo that started it all. Even back then, at the beginning of the series, knowing that they were going to have this great opposites-attract dynamic between these two characters, TPTB almost opted to have Sam and Janet (actually COMPATIBLE characters) become enemies.

You look at Sheppard and McKay, and their dynamic vastly dominates Atlantis, at the expense of everyone else. Teyla and Liz have yet to have an actual on-screen conversation in nearly two and half years. They barely exchange shared glances. Teyla and Liz can only be utilized if it's in relation to whom they may want to snog (i.e. Shep, Ronon, McKay or Beckett), and the relationships between Shep/Ronon, Shep/Beckett, Ronon/McKay, McKay/Beckett, Beckett/Zelenka, Zelenka/McKay have all been fleshed out throughout the past two seasons 1000x more than Teyla and Elizabeth. It's pathetic.

And then you shift it back to SG-1's season nine, and you see them feebly try to recreate the Jack/Daniel dynamic in Cameron/Daniel. They continue to force feed Cam/Sam, Cam/Teal'c down our throats at every turn as well, yet they choose to cut a Sam/Vala scene in S10 "in the interest of time."

Their priorities are ridiculously skewed. And if AT and CB both had to make a choice to play their characters this way, it says to me that the writers either didn't bother to work on their dynamic at all, or their original plan was to make them enemies, too. Evidently women can only interact with each other if they're at odds somehow.

Either way you look at it, they need some serious work in these areas. I'm all for male-male buddy-buddy relationships, but this outright neglect of the female character dynamics is becoming extremely tiresome.

/not-so-mini rant

I agree. Why do people think that women can't be buddies without being *****y? The male buddy relationships you mentioned have their share of antagonism, and yet they work just fine. I have lots of female friends and rarely do we resort to the type of behavior the males of Stargate seem to fall into. It's just not fair, and I'm glad that Amanda and Claudia are trying to work around that.

Originally posted by the dancer of spaz

EDIT: Oh, and if someone has the scans of these pages online, it'd be great if you posted them.

I second this whole-heartedly.

**WhatFateAlmondRoca** · 13 July 2006, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by minigeek

They're aware. They just choose not to listen. They choose to work the stories and the characters without regard to anyone else's input, whether that be from the actors or the feedback they receive from fans. In short, they don't care. They've made their minds up, they think they know best and they've stuck their feet in the muck about it; they're not about to budge. Like Skydiver so often says, they have the mentality that we're all gonna watch what they give us and wer'e all gonna love it as much as they do, or else we're all of no consequence. Sad, but unfortunately true. You know what they say. An excess of pride goeth before a fall. And the bigger they are...

mg

I'm really afraid that you are absolutely correct. I've thought that since Avalon 1. So what do the numbers say - that's one thing I don't follow much. Have ratings dropped? Have the demos changed at all or have they bothered to quantify that? I just really fail to see how these things are good for the franchise and thus good for TPTB.

<---still shaking head, but this time its 100% agreement 100% still dumbfounded

Announcement

Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment