Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[Tracy Jane]

That is judgemental. First of all. Second of all, the gender of the author, in this case, *would* make a substantial difference - and if you do not realize that, then you have no concept of the reality behind the situation you're passing such arrogant commentary on. Thirdly, as a survivor, I take immense umberage with your casual disregard and pithy disrespect for the very notion that fiction or non-fiction scenarios written or read can be a tremendous outlet for anyone who's ever needed to feel "not alone" with this type of situation, at the end of it all. Your logic is cold and uninformed, and I would thank you please, not to pass sweeping judgement on a literary subjectmatter you cannot possibly begin to empathize with.

Yes, it can be a tremendous help, I suppose, but only if the person is ready for that. Personally I couldn't take it.

[AGateFan]

Actually I believe the question was would you like to see a rape story involving Sam on Stargate. I'm not really sure it had any mention of fic stories. There are actually many fanfiction stories about Stargate that involve rape, surviving it and dealing with it's aftermath. Some have been very well written, others not so well. I don't think the idea of it happening is unrealistic. Sam is a woman walking through the Stargate to unexplored planets. Planets like the one we saw in Emancipation where women are considered as nothing more than a piece of property. The odds are in a real life situation, that if Sam had been captured and tortured on one of these planets then more than likely she would have been raped as well. Some people would enjoy seeing her deal with this sort of emotional and physical trauma... I'm not sure I could have dealt with it. That's not to say I don't think Amanda would have done an amazing job with the story, I'm just don't think it would have been something I'd be able to watch.

Kat

Sorry, I can’t believe I am going to agree with Lightsabre ( not that there’s anything wrong with that....just rarely happens) but I too have absolutely no interest in seeing such a storyline On Stargate. Doing such in Fan fiction is fine because I can choose not to read it and it does not affect my feeling of the actual show. Playing it out On the show would greatly affect how I view the show and my opinion of it.

Such storylines maybe more appropriate for a show like BSG which is all about heavy (and somewhat exploitive IMHO) drama. I personally don’t watch Stargate for such heavy storylines. Heck I don’t like it when they kill off characters. I certainly have no interest in seeing one being permanently maimed... and IMHO the effects of rape are permanent (which is why the light punishment for such acts is a true crime IMHO). I suspect that if Stargate ever did have such an ep I would turn it if off and would never return to the show. You may be able to get away with implying such acts happened to a secondary character (the female USAF that was captured by apophis in the first ep comes to mind) but nothing they can do on a fun-action\adventure TV show could ever, Ever do justice to the true horrors of such a crime if you had to face it head on with a main character. Just MHO.

[AUCat]

Tracey Jane you said what I would have said. Goodbye SG1. There is no way they could do it justice and keep the show light and fun.

[ShimmeringStar]

Ack! I know I shouldn’t get on here early… I’ll get sucked in and be late for work! Ah well… I’ll try to be quick…

Respectfully Sal, my answer is no. I wouldn’t want to see Sam's rape on SG, no matter how fine of an actress I believe AT to be. But that’s just me. While it’s a very emotionally laden subject that lends itself well to deep exploration on a lot of levels both in film and writing, I just don’t want to, and normally don’t choose to, fill my mind with it. And in relation to SG – the threat and reality of torture, especially physical torture of all types, is a given part of the job. And I, on some level as a viewer, don’t doubt that each character had their own experience with rape in the overall SG picture…

The tease did he/didn’t he in Emancipation - could be interpreted both ways. By the time I watched that one (all out of order on SciFi) I had seen enough SG eps to understand that the writers and PTB never really addressed many emotionally-resonant things (Emancipation, Abyss, *snaps fingers trying to remember* wasn’t there an ep where Daniel dealt with something similar?) And of course the first ep of S8 sealed it, that 8 years into the show and much experience writing these characters and arcs.... here comes Sam, *fresh* from “mind rape” being plopped out of the ship, smiling up at the guys and acting like *nothing* happened.

So I’m use to the life-altering events of SG characters not being addressed, and chalk it up to a lot of things including it being more of the fill-in-the-blank-with-your-own-interpretation kind of thing that permeates the show. Oh well. And for me, I wondered about that aspect of her ship with Jonas Hanson, and wonder if certain actions/attidudes/expectations on his part would have helped hasten her break up with him…

But back to your question… I know it’s a question I thought about with my 2nd fanfic, CZ. What is too much whumpage? How far is too far? Does it serve the character? Would it serve whatever plot/topic/etc, I was trying to share? For me, no, it didn’t. And I’ll be honest with you… since we’ve got the topic on the table… there was a fanfic I read off LiveJournal early last summer (or was it before then? Can’t remember!) that dealt with this. It wasn’t nice. It involved Jack and Sam. Lots of people had voiced their discontent with the story (in fact that’s how I found it – reading friends lists of friends lists and many people saying how bad it was & thinking, ‘nothing can be that bad.’ )

Like a bad car wreck I kept reading thinking maybe the person would redeem the story with a better characterization of Sam and Jack (it was certainly a long enough story to do so), but that never happened and I was left with a *really* bad taste in my mouth, and worse yet, in my mind. (Oh and by the way Sal… this one was allegedly written by a woman. Men and women can write drivel as easily as they can write things that touch the heart and soul. I agree that a woman is much more likely to write the female experience well, because of a greater opportunity of having ‘been there and done that,’ but there are men who can write other's POV well.)

IMOHO (again, just MOHO) we are what we fill our minds with, and I’ve never been one for filling my own with graphic horror, carnage, rape, etc., for many reasons…(again that’s just me…) Our imaginations can fill in the blanks pretty well in most cases, given our own personal experiences, and on a larger scale I worry that as a society the more we see it, the more we become desensitized to the true impact those actions have and more disconnected from others and well… anyway… No. I agree with minigeek that it’s hard for TV (even some movies) to do justice to a topic that requires great acting/directing on one end, and lots of thought on the part of the viewer concerning what they’ve just seen and how they personally feel about it. SG the show (vs. the fanfic) was good, very good at skimming and teasing the viewers to think more about major hot topic issues, but given they’ve rarely been able to ‘go deep’ with the stories they have had… A no on this one…

Just MOHO as always. (And thanks for asking the question.)


(and a small EEEK! LOL! Hope this made sense and doesn't have typos. Now let’s see how quick I can get ready and get out of here!! See y’all later!)

[Tracy Jane]

Just had a really funny thought whilst talking to AD on MSN. I was fixing my toilet (it wouldn't flush and the girls in my house are too girly to even go there) and I dreamt up the following scenario where Sam's loo was broken.

O'Neill: What's up, Carter?
Carter: Toilet needs fixing, Sir.
O'Neill: For Crying Out Loud, Carter... you can build a makeshift ZPM to power the gate, hell, you can even blow up a star..... but you can't fix a toilet??

[Myrth]

I guess the science of the cistern is too simple for Sam

Just had a really funny thought whilst talking to AD on MSN. I was fixing my toilet (it wouldn't flush and the girls in my house are too girly to even go there) and I dreamt up the following scenario where Sam's loo was broken.

O'Neill: What's up, Carter?
Carter: Toilet needs fixing, Sir.
O'Neill: For Crying Out Loud, Carter... you can build a makeshift ZPM to power the gate, hell, you can even blow up a star..... but you can't fix a toilet??

[Tracy Jane]

I guess the science of the cistern is too simple for Sam

It's like the Asgard... they can't think Dumb

Nice alliteration, btw.

[ChillinTheMost]

I was trying to figure out the wording for my response to the rape question and then I read minigeek's response. She, and others that echoed her response, said what I wanted to.

While I have no doubt that Amanda could handle the acting, it's not what I watch Stargate for and I don't want Samantha to have that dark edge that would undoubtably result. Stargate can certainly have it's darker moments, and that's fine occasionally, but mostly it's the upbeat, positiveness of the show that keeps me coming back. And if I'm not saying this right, please refer back to minigeek's response, as she says it so much better.

[minigeek: I tried to green ya but apparently I pushed a wrong key or something, so if you have a greenie from me with, oh, about half a word, that's what happened. It must have taken the green, though, because it wouldn't let me do it again. Sorry! I'm so clumsy. ]

[Skydiver]

you guys have to go and have all this cool convo while i'm asleep, no fair

as to rape on the show. i doubt they'll ever do it, even though it is something that is a very real threat. back in the 'good old days' raping the women was considered a spoil of war. if your side lost and you were female, you hid or you were taken. it was far, far more common than it is now and, i think, a lot in life that most women expected

and since they're exploring 'primitive' planets, then yeah it would be a very real threat, possibly only mitigated by any male having a 'not messing wtih an alien' quirk

but not only do they not deal with it on the show, i really don't want them to. these boys can barely write sam in a functional relationship without turning her into some charicture of a fanboy fantasy, you really think they can tackle the real issues of such a traume?????

like folks have said, emancipation was glossed over, abyss was glossed over, fifth was glossed over, daniel adn replicarter was glossed over, meta was glossed over, etc, etc, etc,

in fact, i think the ONLY nod they've ever had towards dealing wtih trauma was the end if itlod, and that was a bare pittance adn kinda came across as a 'well, we do have a couple of minutes left'

these writers seem to be incapable of adequately dealing with any sort of emotional trauma to the characters, so no, don't let them handle something like this cause they can't.

and i'd rather have them not do it at all than have them do it totally frelled up

[minigeek]

Just to throw a word of caution in here though, as subtley as I possibly can. I have a lot of experience with survivors and this issue through a website I run which by design and function is an outlet for survivors. This topic can take people to very painful places very quickly with the slightest lack of thought on someone's part.

A shared brain is right, Myrth.

I'm going to make a bold, perhaps even somewhat controversial statement here and say that I think a lot of the time, the real problem stems from people OVERempathizing.

See, for me, art (in all its forms) is about the expression of ideas and emotion. It communicates. In every medium, to every audience, there's a message that's imparted. With mainstream movies, television, etc., the darker, more dangerous messages are far too often "half-censored" due to the worry that offense will be taken. And it is, as you said Myrth, impossible to figure out how every individual is going to feel when impacted with a piece of expression (whether it's written, drawn, filmed or otherwise imparted). So, as with the BSG rape scene which was toned down to "almost-rape" due to the network's terror of being too visceral with it, we end up with a "half-censored", watered down version of real.

Does that make it "easier to take"? I can't answer that. Certainly not for everybody. I can only tell you guys how it makes me personally feel.

I feel very strongly that one of the most powerful ways to confront the evils and the terrors of the world, is to tell the stories of the survivors. With dignity and respect and special attention to detail. Time has a way of dulling the edges of a person's memory. Even the horrible parts. But to gloss over or "half-tell" these kinds of stories is (to my mind) to do a serious injustice to the purpose of the expression.

The stories NEED to be told. And I think, given the right artists involved, they can be told. Well and truly. There is only benefit in that, not harm, and it keeps the flame alight in the minds of those who haven't experienced the terror (whatever it may be); it allows the social "whole" to be granted a gift - not only of empathy, but of knowledge; a modicum of understanding. So that fewer of these sorts of terrors (whatever they may be) can become blunted, or easily dismissed.

The absolute worst thing I think art (in any form) can do, is to "pretty-up" or glorify acts like torture. Or rape. But that does not mean those stories should never be told. Sweeping stories like that under some sort of rug of shame and/or stating that stories like that are "sick" or "twisted", can only imply that those people who have experienced such trauma are somehow caught in the hidden world of "sick" and "twisted" and should also hide, as we hide their story - because it's too difficult to tell anyone; too real and horrible to show. Can you see the folly in that? The inherant disdain that accompanies it? Avoiding the scary stories is far more dangerous than telling them. Or half-telling them, with a dose of sugar on the side to coat the darker parts.

That's not to say that every artistic medium must always deal with darkness, or that every television show should be edgy and dark. Some television products don't support that. SG-1 is not necessarily the platform to tell certain stories, for example.

But to censor those for the sake of censoring them - because someone who is ignorant of what the reality would emotionally entail does not want to "hurt" any feelings, so decides instead not even to find out what that might mean (to research it and to discover what would be a better alternative) - well, we only end up with the standard status-quo, when that happens. The cliche "politically correct" response which everyone (who has no clue what the hurt means) THINKS is the right thing to say/do about it.

No way. TELL the stories. Make them real. Get artists in there who know. Get people to advise who've been there. And make the message matter for a damn change.

That's how I would do it. But that's just me.

(and now I'm kinda unable to type so I'm going to take a break for a bit).

[ForeverSg1]

I'm a bit iffy on rape fic. I don't usually read them because they tend to be poorly written or characterised. Well written ones do open up a whole lot of paths to be explored for the character. Strix's one is one of the few that I thought did a really good job on that.

Out of interest, Battlestar Galactica hasn't really held back any punches with this issue. They had the attempted rape of Sharon and a badly sexually/physically abused Gina. I was reading an interview with Grace Park (who plays Sharon) and she commented on how they originally filmed a full on rape scene, but the network execs freaked and had them edit it back to an attempted rape.
For an alarming and disturbing issue (something like 1 in 3 women in the world experience it?) it too often gets labelled as an unsuitable topic. But its a very real problem, and labelling it 'taboo' or 'too sick' for TV is probably not the right way to go about things.

As for showing it on Stargate, it probably won't happen. Stargate never attempts to rock the boat by exploring these kinds of issues - it's not that type of show. Also I don't think I'd want to have Sam have to experience that because, well its Sam
Though when you think about it, Sam has experienced it in a different form - Jolinar. While not a physical rape, it was a rape of Sam's mind.

Totally agree with you here, which is why I was a bit disappointed that they just seemed to drop this storyline once her father became a Tok'ra. I wish we could have seen Sam struggle with this a bit more, but then none of the characters really seem to have any issues with the experiences they have gone through. We've basically seen them tortured, killed, ascended, addicted to substances like the light and sarcophogus, raped (in my mind Daniel was raped in Hathor ) and yet we see none of them as really having any lasting scars from these events. They just seem to brush themselves off and carry on. But looking at things from another point of view, I guess we have seen them all become harder, more distanced and in Daniel and Sam's case especially the sheer joy of what they do seems to be gone. They also seem to all have issues with any type of social life outside of work; be that a romantic or non-romantic relationship outside of the team. We know Sam tried to have a relationship with Pete, but from the beginning it seemed as if it was a real struggle for Sam. It was if she kept telling herself 'I can do this.' So maybe their experiences really have altered their personalities. We have just not been allowed to really see them deal with their inner demons.

Personally for me, if they have to do a clip show each year, I'd really love to have the team members stuck somewhere in a room and have them express to one another their fears they've had over the past ten years and how the different events they have been through have affected them personally. I think it could be a very deeply emotional episode for all of the actors and it would still allow the producers to use clips thus saving a bit of money...and maybe in the process allow our team to show a little warmth and concern for one another again.
Kat

[Mandysg1]

these writers seem to be incapable of adequately dealing with any sort of emotional trauma to the characters, so no, don't let them handle something like this cause they can't.

and i'd rather have them not do it at all than have them do it totally frelled up

I have to agree about the writers, I think the only media (well maybe not the only, but the only one I can think of) able to handle the subject matter and to show all the aspects of the aftermath and healing process is the Soap Opeas. They have had many stories, and they have lasted more than 48 minutes. The characters dealing with rape or dealing with it years after it happened. I don't think any other media is capable of handling that.

Oh and Strix plenty of snow up here, come on up and take as much as you want

[Tracy Jane]

Until this point my answers on the subject of rape in Stargate have been pretty non-commital, one line answers. Firstly because I was very busy (have been working on the invite for the upcoming valenship event) and secondly because I prefer to avoid the subject in general. It's incredibly painful.

I understand that if dealt in the correct manner, a storyline about rape could be beneficial to a lot of people, but it could also be very detrimental as well. Every person in this situation has a different reaction and learns to cope in their own way. There are common features, yes, but instead of showing people that they are normal, for those with a different way of coping, it could cause them to feel alienated.

Furthermore, there are a great number of people who can't face the issue of rape, those for whom the memories are still too fresh, or those who deal best by burying their emotions deep down. These people do not want to be confronted by such a storyline, and as the emotional scarring and aftermath takes years to heal (and sometimes never does), they do not wish to be confronted with this every week.

I, for one, find Stargate to be a form of escapism. Although there are some issues that are very real, one reason for watching the show is to escape the harsh realities of torture, rape and the atrocities that happen in real life. It's a way for me to forget the past, and to focus on other things.

I hope you'll bear with my erratic train of thought, butthis is proving to be a very difficult post to write. I still feel incredibly sore about this matter, and, to be perfectly honest with you, when I read Minigeek's question, the images that it created in my head made me vomit, then have a panic attack. Even now my hands are shaking and it's taking everything within me to breath evenly and to stop me vision blurring and start panicking.

Why, you ask... because I didn't expect this conversation on Samanda. I didn't expect to be confronted with these issues and questions here, just like I don't expect to be confronted with these issues on Stargate. Imagine if I was firmly against spoilers, and sat in front of my television to watch that episode. I'd rather not think about it.

Although strength through emotional trauma is an important issue, this is something they could convey through the Jolinar story arc, or something a little less close to home. To show emotional strength in a character, to inspire people and give them hope... you don't need to show rape, you don't need to show a physical attack, you can choose a different story, but convey the same inspiring inner strength. This is Sci-Fi, after all.

A story arc such as this would cause huge tears in the fan base, and would hurt too many people. These issues need to be dealt with, yes, but in a more suitable, more prepared arena, like that of drama or soap opera shows, not in an escapist sci-fi arena.

[minigeek]

Totally agree with you here, which is why I was a bit disappointed that they just seemed to drop this storyline once her father became a Tok'ra. I wish we could have seen Sam struggle with this a bit more, but then none of the characters really seem to have any issues with the experiences they have gone through. We've basically seen them tortured, killed, ascended, addicted to substances like the light and sarcophogus, raped (in my mind Daniel was raped in Hathor ) and yet we see none of them as really having any lasting scars from these events. They just seem to brush themselves off and carry on. But looking at things from another point of view, I guess we have seen them all become harder, more distanced and in Daniel and Sam's case especially the sheer joy of what they do seems to be gone.

Kat, those are such profound points. I really think you've hit on something big here.

Mainstream television often tends to drop the difficult stuff, or gloss over it. Add that to the fact that the western hemisphere is a society which villifies sexuality (in many regards) and there's a push not to over-dramatize those kinds of issues (either tender or traumatic) too.

I always felt that what Ba'al did to Jack was such a profound kind of torture, it would have scarred him for a very long time. What Sam went through with Jolinar, Daniel's rape (in Hathor) - I agree with you Kat - none of it was "dealt with". And I don't think they ever planned to or wanted to deal with it.

We see so much violence and torture on television these days, it's almost become normal for our viewing habits, to watch someone hurt or maimed in a military situation between 8 and 9 pm prime time (how sad is that?).

Carter's character has gone through a great deal in the past decade, and the comment that was raised regarding her no longer seeing things with the same "joy" she once did is, I think, very apt.

By the same token, one wonders, where does a character go from that point? What other road(s) are there to travel which can just as powerfully impact the way they look at their lives and their choices (the growth aspects we need, as viewers, to see). Is there an "end" of the road? And if so, when is it reached?

When Sam Carter, Daniel Jackson, Teal'c and Jack have "been there, done that, seen everything, done everything", where can we take them (if we're writing them), in terms of a new direction? If innocence is irrevocably lost, what makes life worth living and discovery worth persuing? Is this the trap that the current writers have fallen into?

Questions, questions. I think about those kinds of things with respect to SG-1 and its characters (especially Carter's character) a great deal while I'm considering the future of her character and the show as a whole. And I wonder. A lot.

mini(more philosophical than usual this morning, I guess)geek

[Strix varia]

By the same token, one wonders, where does a character go from that point? What other road(s) are there to travel which can just as powerfully impact the way they look at their lives and their choices (the growth aspects we need, as viewers, to see). Is there an "end" of the road? And if so, when is it reached?

When Sam Carter, Daniel Jackson, Teal'c and Jack have "been there, done that, seen everything, done everything", where can we take them (if we're writing them), in terms of a new direction? If innocence is irrevocably lost, what makes life worth living and discovery worth persuing? Is this the trap that the current writers have fallen into?

mini(more philosophical than usual this morning, I guess)geek

That's sort of what I tried to address in Looking Up. I envisioned them abandoning the SGC, but not each other. At least, not right away.

It is a fascinating question, and I could imagine many different scenarios.