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**astrogeologist** · 27 February 2005, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Skydiver

that division only grew two years later when MS announced that he was leaving the show. again generally speaking, the anti shippers also tended to be fans of MS and took his departure rather hard. many of the s&j crowd didn't care as much. and both sides weren't shy about speaking thier minds

there are divisions in this fandom that will never be healed, and,among many,
Sam has gotten caught in the cross fire

Great posts, Skydiver! (post 1, post 2). The look back at how character-bashing all got started is intriguing (as was mentioned earlier, it's the very reason that MajorSal started this thread). Along with ChopinGal, I greatly appreciate your thoughtful and carefully worded posts for those of us that weren't around to watch it all unfold. Ship101 is an important course in Stargate101, for those of us underclassmen!

So... what I'm seeing is… Sam-bashing comes from many different sources:
1. some fans wanted Jack or Daniel or Jack and Daniel as the focus of almost every episode... and they were unhappy when Sam was the focus
2. ship polarized the fans further... and Divide and Conquer was a pivotal episode for 'ship wars'
3. except for D&C, Jack's comments to Sam in Season's 1-4 can be interpreted as just comments between comrades or friends... or as ship... so it depends on which camp you are in as to how you see it, because nothing is explicit (except for D&C, and even that is circumspectly worded).
4. Sam's personal feelings for Jack over the past few seasons are shown at the same time that Jack backs off and becomes almost non-committal... so to non-shippers (or anti-shippers), it looks like Sam pines for Jack, but that he no longer reciprocates her feelings (if he ever did, from the anti-shipper viewpoint). Shippers interpret Jack's silences differently.
5. the past few seasons, have shown Sam's vulnerabilities and personal struggles in a ‘different light’ - Sam's personal life is shown as a separate storyline in a couple of episodes... something that has not been done for the other characters in previous episodes
6. Sam makes some mistakes... spoiler for Season 8

Spoiler:

For me, this has all been an interesting education. Sam Carter and AT hooked me into Stargate when I caught some old reruns on some late Saturday afternoon on a local independent station. I was amazed by this wonderful female sci-fi character. Working alongside the guys, holding her own, not dressed up like a sexy vixen, but not like some hard-butch iron-woman either… smart (love ScienceSmart!Sam), personable, sometimes showing innocence, sometimes showing heart, other times standing solid with a P90 on full rock-and-roll… following orders… respectful of the chain of command – even when she’s *so* smart…. not really seeming to know how smart she is… able to cry and be human… able to dress as a woman… yet fly jets and X-302’s… having alien men fall for her… and she’s innocently unaware… willing to trust… her inner drive for exploration of science and the stars… holding a lead character role so well in an arena dominated by males.

Way back in this thread, Coley asked me what other women characters I held in similar esteem… and I’ve thought about that question for two months… and haven’t been able to come up with an answer! Frankly, I don’t think that there is another female scifi character that was done as well as AT has done Sam Carter.
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**astrogeologist** · 27 February 2005, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by ChopinGal

Of course, the big question for Sam fans is what will happen to Sam Carter in all this? How will she be written? We certainly know how we want her to be written: strong, resilient, confident, ready to command, content with her personal life, humorous, mature. I hope the writers don't disappoint us!

Ship will pretty much be a thing of the past ... so the Sam bashers will have to find another part of Sam that they don't like. I'm sure they will .... As Abraham Lincoln once said: "I have found that most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." It seems that some fans have hung Sam out to dry ... I doubt that her strong performances in the last part of S8 will change their perceptions. Only time will tell.

I was just getting ready to hit send and post this when I saw ChopinGals most recent post here - perfect timing!
I think I can see the different ‘sides’ and opinions of what has happened to the character over the years. The next question becomes, where does the character go from here? Have the writers sacrificed Sam Carter on the altar of ship and personal relationships over the past couple of seasons? I think that Season 9 will answer that question. What they come up with to deal with RDA’s and AT’s absences will probably dictate the direction and future for Sam Carter. Will they sacrifice Colonel Carter for S/J ship? In other words, will they write Carter as giving up her post on SG-1, and perhaps her commission in the Air Force, to pursue a relationship with Jack?

Wow, what a volatile question…! I would assume that there would be lots of S/J shippers who wouldn’t care if Sam gave up her commission – as long as Sam and Jack were together. But other shippers, e.g., MajorSam, have stated earlier in this thread, that that’s not the way that they want to see Sam and Jack get together.

I know that we really just have to wait and see… but I sincerely hope that the writers can find a way to make good on what they’ve seemed to promise in Threads – without sacrificing Colonel Sam Carter in the process. Or am I asking for too much?
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**ChopinGal** · 27 February 2005, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

I was just getting ready to hit send and post this when I saw ChopinGals most recent post here - perfect timing!
I think I can see the different ‘sides’ and opinions of what has happened to the character over the years. The next question becomes, where does the character go from here? Have the writers sacrificed Sam Carter on the altar of ship and personal relationships over the past couple of seasons? I think that Season 9 will answer that question. What they come up with to deal with RDA’s and AT’s absences will probably dictate the direction and future for Sam Carter. Will they sacrifice Colonel Carter for S/J ship? In other words, will they write Carter as giving up her post on SG-1, and perhaps her commission in the Air Force, to pursue a relationship with Jack?

Wow, what a volatile question…! I would assume that there would be lots of S/J shippers who wouldn’t care if Sam gave up her commission – as long as Sam and Jack were together. But other shippers, e.g., MajorSam, have stated earlier in this thread, that that’s not the way that they want to see Sam and Jack get together.

I know that we really just have to wait and see… but I sincerely hope that the writers can find a way to make good on what they’ve seemed to promise in Threads – without sacrificing Colonel Sam Carter in the process. Or am I asking for too much?

Astro ... yes, it is a thorny question but possibly the most important question of the upcoming S9 for Sam fans. Does she keep her integrity as a leader, scientist, warrior, and do the writers now relegate her personal relationships to the background? We should know something, perhaps, from the reason (once it's identified) for her personal and professional mission during first five episodes of S9.

Since I do believe in the Sam and Jack relationship, I have my own bias about this, and MajorSam expressed it really well a few pages back. We don't need the shock and stun I just wrote about in my last post ... we need the comfortableness of a normal, healthy relationship between two loving partners. Why can't this be shown through some lovely interludes? RDA will not be a leading actor, so, if he does commit to some filming - what's wrong with a scene or two of his and Sam's activities? I love that fishing at his cabin already happens - so build on that - Sam teaching her former CO and fly boy how to ride a motorcycle - wouldn't that be a hoot? Or have them hiking in the mountains, enjoying a sunset, hell - going to the movies - dancing - beautiful and warm moments of two people who are finally free to be with each other and so relaxed, and so playful .... Listen, it worked in the 30s and 40s with the big movie stars where romance and UST let the audience use their imagination for the more intimate moments. Sex as mystery ... now that's an old-fashioned thought! And probably shows why I'm one of the Elders on this thread ...

But I really am from the school that thinks "sometimes less is more." It's those little tender moments that I would love to see ... but only if these scenes did not take away from the major plots and the team dynamic. My worst fear? That the writers refuse to allow Sam and Jack to grow into normal, healthy, and loving adults and keep the tension going around their past insecurities and issues. Nothing good would come of it. That, of course, is MHO and "normal" may not be a marketable commodity to TPTB.

LOL at that last paragraph ... what I would like to happen will be at odds with other fans who want Sam to really make up for lost time with Jack onscreen because there was a bedroom scene with Pete!

IMHO, that would once again detract from the character's essence: Sam Carter as scientist and soldier (who happens to be a woman). There are plenty of good fanfics that can satisfy the need to go behind closed doors.

**Skydiver** · 27 February 2005, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by ChopinGal

You've said it well, NC ... much of the unrest recently can be traced back to RDA's change in schedule. Both the writing and the demands on the cast changed a lot. I think of AT, for example, filming scenes for Grace and Death Knell and Gemini all within same week - I don't know how she did it. Frankly, all the actors need to be commended for such a grueling schedule. They really stepped up to the plate to accommodate RDA's absence. I believe he has acknowledged their efforts in some of his interviews and is grateful for their cooperation. But his change in work schedule did leave an impact. And the character of Sam Carter took the worst hit.

yep. i mean, look at it at its simplest. if RDA (Jack) is only going to be on for 8 minutes out of a 43 minute show then if you're a fan of sam/jack then you're going to resent if he spends 6 of his 8 minutes talking to daniel, and vice versa

Greed is a harsh word but i can't come up with a better one at the moment. when fans who prefer a certain sort of interaction over another feel like they've been cheated out of what they want, then they can take it a bit personally. they might resent that sam got those 6 minutes when they're sure that that time could have been better spent with daniel

it's just simple human nature

and when both sides of the debate aren't shy about speaking out, then who and how jack spends his limited time with can become a sticking point

Originally posted by ChopinGal

Ship will pretty much be a thing of the past ... so the Sam bashers will have to find another part of Sam that they don't like. I'm sure they will .... As Abraham Lincoln once said: "I have found that most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." It seems that some fans have hung Sam out to dry ... I doubt that her strong performances in the last part of S8 will change their perceptions. Only time will tell.

give em time. lincoln was right, people can be as happy as they want to be. and people, if they try hard enough, can always find something to complain about.

moeb 2 spoilers

Spoiler:

**Skydiver** · 27 February 2005, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

Carter Directory Page - I have all of the screen cap photo panels, with links to the thread postings that include explanation and/or dialogue. I also have links to some Carter music videos and some good Carterfic (this list is nowhere near complete -- I have a list in-progress on my computer, but I haven't finished it).

did you know that 'what will it take' has taken up premnant residence upon my harddrive?

i enjoyed reading overtime too. sometimes i kinda thought that the whumpage was a wee bit over the top....but i did enjoy it

Since Noda stoppped writing and gracie seems to have too, my 'one good sam fic a year' has dwindled.....but i'm glad someone else has stepped up to the place to write some sam fic

**MajorSam** · 27 February 2005, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by ChopinGal

Ship will pretty much be a thing of the past ... so the Sam bashers will have to find another part of Sam that they don't like. I'm sure they will .... As Abraham Lincoln once said: "I have found that most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." It seems that some fans have hung Sam out to dry ... I doubt that her strong performances in the last part of S8 will change their perceptions. Only time will tell.

While I really hope that ship continues, or rather is actually shown, (In the form of my examples a few pages back) But I wonder, what would the bashers actually say to it? Hm...

In my opinion, I agree that the last part of S8 won't change their minds. I was on this other forum, and almost every person in this one thread had sworn to themselves that after Geek!Sam, they were definately never going to like any version of Sam ever again. I think I already said this, but they claimed at first they liked her, thought she was funny, but then in Part 2 she became a raging slut who picked up the first guy she saw so she could get laid. I don't know how people get these ideas, but I know a lot of them will never ever like Sam again, and that makes me really sad

for them! It's their loss after all to not be able to see the brilliance that is Sam. I just hope season 9 keeps up/brings back some of the brilliance.

Spoiler:

*shrug* I guess we'll never know.

Originally posted by Skydiver

moeb 2 spoilers

Spoiler:

**NearlyCircular** · 27 February 2005, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

[I] The next question becomes, where does the character go from here? Have the writers sacrificed Sam Carter on the altar of ship and personal relationships over the past couple of seasons? I think that Season 9 will answer that question. What they come up with to deal with RDA’s and AT’s absences will probably dictate the direction and future for Sam Carter. Will they sacrifice Colonel Carter for S/J ship? In other words, will they write Carter as giving up her post on SG-1, and perhaps her commission in the Air Force, to pursue a relationship with Jack?
...
I know that we really just have to wait and see… but I sincerely hope that the writers can find a way to make good on what they’ve seemed to promise in Threads – without sacrificing Colonel Sam Carter in the process. Or am I asking for too much?
.

I'm a cynic about a lot of things, and I've been whining along with some of you about the way some parts of Sam's character have been portrayed the last 2 years. But the last few days I've been thinking about how TPTB have handled SG1 over the years, and I firmly believe that they get it right the vast majority of the time. Some fans were convinced that the show would end when MS took off a season, others have bemoaned the lack of Jack this season, and the show has not only survived, it's thrived. Ratings are higher than ever, and I continue to read comments that episodes like Lost City and Reckoning are the best ever. TPTB somehow seem to be able to put out a great product in spite of cost constraints, time constraints and changes in personnel.

When it comes to writing Sam next season, I think they can be trusted to keep her "true" to what we've come to expect. We know that they keep in touch with the fan base, probably more than any other show on the air, so they know that the admiration for Sam is not just for the fact that a beautiful actress happens to play her. It's also because she's a

Originally posted by astrogeologist

wonderful female sci-fi character. Working alongside the guys, holding her own, not dressed up like a sexy vixen, but not like some hard-butch iron-woman either… smart (love ScienceSmart!Sam), personable, sometimes showing innocence, sometimes showing heart, other times standing solid with a P90 on full rock-and-roll… following orders… respectful of the chain of command – even when she’s *so* smart…. not really seeming to know how smart she is… able to cry and be human… able to dress as a woman… yet fly jets and X-302’s… having alien men fall for her… and she’s innocently unaware… willing to trust… her inner drive for exploration of science and the stars… holding a lead character role so well in an arena dominated by males.

So even as a new player comes into the mix and we wonder how Ben Browder's character will impact the team dynamic, I'm going to stay optimistic that TPTB will continue to do it right on the whole.

(Sam to Teal'c in Lost City: "trying to stay positive")

NC (living in my happy little bubble right now)

**astrogeologist** · 27 February 2005, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Skydiver

did you know that 'what will it take' has taken up premnant residence upon my harddrive?

i enjoyed reading overtime too. sometimes i kinda thought that the whumpage was a wee bit over the top....but i did enjoy it

Yeah, I would agree - there are several portions of Overtime that needed more development... it was a case of knowing what I wanted the end result to be, but not being able to develop (devote enough time to) the events leading up to the end well enough... I know that I wrapped the writing of that story up fast - I was so shocked by how long it took to write, I just kept thinking it would be done 'today or tomorrow'.

Of course 'What Will It Take'... took even longer than Overtime, but I was a bit more used to the idea that this 'fiction writing' process was simply going to take a long time!

As for whumpage.. the story that MajorSam is currently developing will leave Overtime completely in the dust!

.

**MajorSam** · 27 February 2005, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

As for whumpage.. the story that MajorSam is currently developing will leave Overtime completely in the dust!

.

*cough* *Angel's halo descends upon head*

Actually right now i'm writing a bunch of HAPPY snippets for that fic!!

I know, can you believe it!?

*Although the happy bits are only there to make the bad bits seem even worse, especially when Sam knows the whumping is real, but the happy isn't, and that she'll never be able to get that happy because she's stuck with the bad forever...*

*well, actually I should say she doesn't think she'll ever get any happy....*

**astrogeologist** · 27 February 2005, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by MajorSam

*cough* *Angel's halo descends upon head*

Actually right now i'm writing a bunch of HAPPY snippets for that fic!!

I know, can you believe it!?

*Although the happy bits are only there to make the bad bits seem even worse, especially when Sam knows the whumping is real, but the happy isn't, and that she'll never be able to get that happy because she's stuck with the bad forever...*

*well, actually I should say she doesn't think she'll ever get any happy....*

Oh, we may have to all pool our royal beans to send poor Sam off to Maui for a month after she gets back from your fic!
.

**ChopinGal** · 27 February 2005, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

... Ship101 is an important course in Stargate101, for those of us underclassmen!

So... what I'm seeing is… Sam-bashing comes from many different sources:
1. some fans wanted Jack or Daniel or Jack and Daniel as the focus of almost every episode... and they were unhappy when Sam was the focus
2. ship polarized the fans further... and Divide and Conquer was a pivotal episode for 'ship wars'
3. except for D&C, Jack's comments to Sam in Season's 1-4 can be interpreted as just comments between comrades or friends... or as ship... so it depends on which camp you are in as to how you see it, because nothing is explicit (except for D&C, and even that is circumspectly worded).
4. Sam's personal feelings for Jack are shown over the past few seasons at the same time that Jack backs off and becomes almost non-committal... so to non-shippers (or anti-shippers), it looks like Sam pines for Jack, but that he no longer reciprocates her feelings (if he ever did, from the anti-shipper viewpoint). Shippers interpret Jack's silences differently.
5. the past few seasons, have shown Sam's vulnerabilities and personal struggles in a ‘different light’ - Sam's personal life is shown as a separate storyline in a couple of episodes... something that has not been done for the other characters in previous episodes
6. Sam makes some mistakes... spoiler for Season 8

Spoiler:

For me, this has all been an interesting education. Sam Carter and AT hooked me into Stargate when I caught some old reruns on some late Saturday afternoon on a local independent station. I was amazed by this wonderful female sci-fi character. Working alongside the guys, holding her own, not dressed up like a sexy vixen, but not like some hard-butch iron-woman either… smart (love ScienceSmart!Sam), personable, sometimes showing innocence, sometimes showing heart, other times standing solid with a P90 on full rock-and-roll… following orders… respectful of the chain of command – even when she’s *so* smart…. not really seeming to know how smart she is… able to cry and be human… able to dress as a woman… yet fly jets and X-302’s… having alien men fall for her… and she’s innocently unaware… willing to trust… her inner drive for exploration of science and the stars… holding a lead character role so well in an arena dominated by males.
Way back in this thread, Coley asked me what other women characters I held in similar esteem… and I’ve thought about that question for two months… and haven’t been able to come up with an answer! Frankly, I don’t think that there is another female scifi character that was done as well as AT has done Sam Carter.

Astro, once again, you've managed to wrap it all up and cut to the chase! You must be one helluva good teacher!

Not only do you provide the main points to Ship 101, but your highlighted paragraph above answers the question "What makes Sam tick?" so, so well. Thanks for the brilliant synopsis! And go to the head of the class!

**Skydiver** · 27 February 2005, 01:37 PM

[QUOTE=MajorSam]In my opinion, I agree that the last part of S8 won't change their minds. I was on this other forum, and almost every person in this one thread had sworn to themselves that after Geek!Sam, they were definately never going to like any version of Sam ever again. I think I already said this, but they claimed at first they liked her, thought she was funny, but then in Part 2 she became a raging slut who picked up the first guy she saw so she could get laid. I don't know how people get these ideas, but I know a lot of them will never ever like Sam again, and that makes me really sad

for them! It's their loss after all to not be able to see the brilliance that is Sam. I just hope season 9 keeps up/brings back some of the brilliance.

[QUOTE]

and i bet you that i can list the names of the people making those comments.

for me? geek sam was adorable. you could see in her just how close she came to being reality, that geek sam is lurking just under the surface of our sam, the only real difference between the two of them, other than the military issue, is self-confidence. our sam has it (or is good at faking it....i think she has confidence in her abilities, just not herself) while geek sam doesn't even see herself as being useful.

moeb spoilage

Spoiler:

as to her being a slut....FCOL, put me in an enclosed space with someone as hot as jack and add in the threat of imminent death and i'll snog him too.

people calling sam a slut are just playing the game of 'let's see what we can find to witch about'

we could have fun in s9, see if we can predict which parts folks twist to being negative towards sam...because i'm willing to be we'll be able to see the pattern

in any case, if they want to waste their time looking for the negative, let them. we're going to be spending ours happily in Samanda

**MajorSam** · 27 February 2005, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by astrogeologist

Oh, we may have to all pool our royal beans to send poor Sam off to Maui for a month after she gets back from your fic!
.

Lol, I could say something to that, but am afraid I can't, it would give away the whole story! You'll just have to wait and see.

Originally posted by Skydiver

Originally posted by MajorSam

In my opinion, I agree that the last part of S8 won't change their minds. I was on this other forum, and almost every person in this one thread had sworn to themselves that after Geek!Sam, they were definately never going to like any version of Sam ever again. I think I already said this, but they claimed at first they liked her, thought she was funny, but then in Part 2 she became a raging slut who picked up the first guy she saw so she could get laid. I don't know how people get these ideas, but I know a lot of them will never ever like Sam again, and that makes me really sad

for them! It's their loss after all to not be able to see the brilliance that is Sam. I just hope season 9 keeps up/brings back some of the brilliance.

and i bet you that i can list the names of the people making those comments.

for me? geek sam was adorable. you could see in her just how close she came to being reality, that geek sam is lurking just under the surface of our sam, the only real difference between the two of them, other than the military issue, is self-confidence. our sam has it (or is good at faking it....i think she has confidence in her abilities, just not herself) while geek sam doesn't even see herself as being useful.

moeb spoilage

Spoiler:

as to her being a slut....FCOL, put me in an enclosed space with someone as hot as jack and add in the threat of imminent death and i'll snog him too.

people calling sam a slut are just playing the game of 'let's see what we can find to witch about'

we could have fun in s9, see if we can predict which parts folks twist to being negative towards sam...because i'm willing to be we'll be able to see the pattern

in any case, if they want to waste their time looking for the negative, let them. we're going to be spending ours happily in Samanda

Fabulous post. I agree with everything you've said, especially the stuff regarding {spoiler]Geek!Sam just needing people to belive in her[/spoiler] I haven't found one female SG fan who wouldn't have snogged him in that situation! I mean, FCOL she's human, isn't she!?

IMO, they're going to twist just about everything. The big clincher is what she's off doing for the first 5 eps... people have latched onto the "PERSONAL and proffessional" reasons VERY harhsly. They've already formulated opinions about what's going to happen, and no matter what i'm afraid they'll bash it just the same.

I'm very content to stay here in dear Samanda

**astrogeologist** · 27 February 2005, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by MajorSam

Lol, I could say something to that, but am afraid I can't, it would give away the whole story! You'll just have to wait and see.

You're not going to kill her, right? I think you said that you weren't going to kill her... hmmm... Happy ending... or at least a hopeful ending..? Beat the characters up as much as you want as long as it comes out ok in the end... Otherwise... we'll have to send AgentDark after you...

.

**astrogeologist** · 27 February 2005, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by Skydiver

FCOL, put me in an enclosed space with someone as hot as jack and add in the threat of imminent death and i'll snog him too.

LOL!

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