Cameron - Discussion and Appreciation

[Anya]

I loved this episode, and I agree with everything you liked, Dream-a-Little. But I have a question for everyone. Was it as clear to you as it was to me that Cam was in charge in all of the various SG-1 teams? I didn't see Sam in charge of any of them, nor any kind of co-leadership. It was especially clear on the Prometheus when Mitchell sat in the big chair. And later, when Mitchell wanted to speak with Mitchell. Only the leaders would confer like that. Otherwise, Mitchell would want to talk to Sam or vice versa.

I just thought that it was interesting that when there was an opportunity to show Sam in charge they didn't. Of course, she had all of her science stuff to do, and that part of the ep was great. But they didn't have her commanding, and I haven't noticed her fans clamoring for her to be in command, either.

What does everyone here think?

They did make it seem as though Cam is in charge of all the AU teams. One where I wasn't sure was the last one with Janet and Martouf. She did all the talking, she spoke to Gen. Landry to plead her case. Someone mentioned that only the leaders would do that, right?

I didn't think the black SG-1 is evil either, just driven to point of desperation perhaps. I hope that there's a way to get an extended version of this ep with all the deleted scenes reintegrated. The scene where Black Daniel has a crisis of conscience would have helped cement the idea that the team is not evil.

[greytop]

I've seen that other certain fans are jumping for joy that Sam was 'commanding' OurSGTeam and ordering Mitchell in the strategedy once they escaped the cell but they are just listening to words and not really thinking of the scene. Firstly, she tells where to go and they comply... but why? She only became their leading officer at that point because their Mitchell is ABSENT. They knew he'd been replaced and hence she took command and they'd hatched the plan to mislead DisguisedBlackMitchell. They would follow the lead of the military officer in charge at that point.

What if the Green team planned this out before our Mitchell asked to see the BlackMitchell? It seemed that is what they did to me.

[Neelan_Liquor]

Thanks, guys. I never thought the BlackSG-1 was "evil" (then, I never thought that Scorpius was evil either ) but might be acting out of character. If they had been following their Landry's orders, I could see them doing what they did. Case closed.

Sorry, DaL, but I loved the "Are you sayin' in some alternate universe... I got to second base..." line. Thought it was very "guy" and quite real, too. Plus, I adored Sam's response to it! Just another one of those interactions that I loved about the ep and the way the rest of this season seems to be going.

Oh and add this one to my list of favorites: “Can I ask another stupid question? Oh no sir yours was fine, mine is stupid.” hehehe Like I said before, this ep was full of great lines! (Thanks Joe!)

Didn't I mention that Cam was the only member of every Sg team? Guess I didn't make it clear that I thought he was the LEADER of every one, eh? So, yeah, I got that. I don't read the "Sam" threads, so I don't know what the fans there are saying, but it seemed pretty clear to me that Cam was in charge the ENTIRE time in this ep. You explained it pretty well, Kas.

Keshou, yeah, I LOVED the team feel of this ep! The different character dynamics really clicked and I can't wait to see more.

[Kas]

What if the Green team planned this out before our Mitchell asked to see the BlackMitchell? It seemed that is what they did to me.

That is a good point. But no matter when the actual plan was hatched, Sam was leading Daniel and Teal'c just for that point because she was the sole military commander present for their team.

[Kas]

Sorry, DaL, but I loved the "Are you sayin' in some alternate universe... I got to second base..." line. Thought it was very "guy" and quite real, too. Plus, I adored Sam's response to it! Just another one of those interactions that I loved about the ep and the way the rest of this season seems to be going.

I also thought that line was a hoot... such a "guy" thing and probably every guy's dream... Get spurned in their RL but strong possibility that they made it somewhere, sometime else. Sam's response was great... wonder exactly what thoughts were running through her mind then? I must say that Cam is building real bonds with all the others with these small little character moments. Loved the Mitch bringing Daniel coffee scene (shows how well he knows him) and the actors' interaction during that whole scene as well.

[ChillinTheMost]

I'm at work and I've found that the best way to hit this thread is to answer as I see them and not read all the posts then come back and find the ones I wanted to comment on, so forgive me if what I say has been said.

Yeah, the only thing I didn't quite buy in RE was

Spoiler:

that ANY Cam wouldn't just endanger the Pegasus humans in order to save Earth. It isn't right, and I just don't see Cam doing it.

Can anyone convince me otherwise?

Honestly, I agree with him. IF the wraith come back and IF Atlantis is attacked and IF.... yeah, a bunch of "ifs" vs an entire planet definitely being destroyed would be an easy choice for me. An immediate danger always trumps a possible-in-the-future danger, especially if there is time to work on a solution for the possible/future danger. To me, this is one of the hard leadership choices that not everyone can make and Mitchell did.

Also, I don't know what the ZPM situation is, but maybe they assumed that we could eventually/within reasonable time find a replacement. Which leads to the question: How did they know we had a ZPM at Atlantis? Does their world have an Atlantis with/without one? I would have liked if the SGC had polled the other SG-1 units to see if any other reality had more ZPMs, or least one to spare.

LOVED the humor in the ep, not to mention the... undies! teeheehee

And my boyfriend doesn't understand why I need to use the DVR on the 62" television to record this show...

It was pretty awesome to see so many Cams though. And did you notice that the only person common to EVERY SINGLE SG-1 team was Cam? Daniel was in most of them, but not all. And I did love seeing two of our old friends very much. *feeling warm and fuzzy*

I'd have to check again, but wasn't there a team [orange hazmat suits] where Mitchell was the ONLY recognizable member? Awwww. The Mitchell in that 'verse couldn't get the band back together...

[ChillinTheMost]

Mitchell seemed much more integrated into the team in this episode. I hope that continues.

Spoiler:

Loved the little exchange with Sam about how finally someone can keep up with you. That felt like good natured teasing between team mates and not forced.

While it has happened before, this episode really brought out the relationship between Mitchell and Sam: Mitchell explaining Sam's technobabble in layman's terms, usually making himself the butt of the joke or complimenting Sam, good-natured teasing, and indulgence - usually all together. Two exchanges between them made me realize this.

The first was when Sam first introduced multiple universes and Mitchell said something about "in an alternate reality I made it to second base with Amy Vandersomething". First, how many guys want to admit that they didn't get to second base with some girl, but Mitchell confidently throws that out there. It also explains what Sam is saying about alternate universes and it teases Sam, because he is oversimplifying it and bringing up a topic that could be slightly embarrassing. Sam smiles at him indulgently and says, "Theoretically..." Sam generally can be seen as the "winner" of these exchanges, but it seems to be something Mitchell hands her, willingly, on an open platter.

The second was when Mitchell told Sam she finally found someone that can keep up with her [herself]. He's teasing, but complimenting at the same time. Sam's "yep" and resulting smile was absolutely adorable. In whatever earlier episode [Prototype?] when Mitchell made the brain percentage remark [that Sam uses a lot more brain resources than he does], Sam just smiled indulgently. She's getting better with dealing with Mitchell's offhanded remarks and the "yep" was perfect.

I just love the friendship that these two have!

[ChillinTheMost]

I haven't paid any attention to ratings in a LONG time, so no worries there.

I just re-watched Ripple Effect again, and there are a lot of great Cam lines.

"Someone who can finally keep up with you." to Sam in the briefing after consulting with... herself.
"I can talk to this guy all day!" when Sam asks if the 2 Cams reliving old times.
"So we figured out that you'd get out and set this trap for you, only for you to figure out that we'd figure it out and set one of your own?" That might not be exact, but... well, you get the idea.

There were more, but I didn't take notes (not as diligent as Chillin, I guess ) hehehe

Kas, this is definately an ep you need to record and rewatch, 'cause you'll be laughing and crying out so much, you'll miss stuff the first time around.

Yep, loved all that stuff, too! and I don't take notes the first couple times I watch! I want to enjoy the show!

And, yes, this is definitely a keeper! As much as I loved Collateral Damage, it won't be an easy one to watch all the time, but this one is so much fun - no problem popping it in the player and watching!!!

[ChillinTheMost]

I love the little theme that they're using for Mitchell. Love it so much, I tried transcribing it. It was used with a more heroic-soundiing trumpet when we first see Cam in full dress uniform at the Stargate in "Avalon Pt. 1". When he's in his undies in "Ripple Effect", they used a much lighter woodwind.

I know absolutely nothing about music and rarely notice background music, but it's cool to know that there is a "Mitchell's Theme"!

[ChillinTheMost]

Actually Ripple Effect surprised me with the amount of lovely Mitchell goodness it had. I need to start approaching all the episodes with very low expectations. It seems like whenever I do, I actually get lucky!

Things I loved.

The interrogation scenes between Mitchell/Daniel and Landry/Black BDU Mitchell were really, really great. BB and MS play off each other just as nicely doing serious drama as well as comedy. Segue into the next scene and we get a nice compare contrast between Our Mitchell and the darker, harder edged Black BDU Mitchell. I really liked the way that PD chose to move from scene to scene here.

“Can I ask another stupid question? Oh no sir yours was fine, mine is stupid.”

Tiger striped team comes through the gate: Mitchell’s very, very southern gum chewing drawled “What the hells going on here?” I would have liked to have spent a little time with this team. They looked like the wild and crazy version of SG-1!

No matter what the configuration of the SG-1 teams, Mitchell is on every single one!

First Asgard Scene:

He looked so uncomfortable at the beginning of this scene. I couldn't figure out why he was so uncomfortable sitting next to the little gray alien. I knew that he had seen strange looking aliens before in TTTB. It turns out he wasn't uncomfortable sitting next to a strange looking alien, he was uncomfortable sitting next to a naked alien.

Sam: “What were you expecting?”
Mitchell: “Well, pants for one.”

The orange juice and Aunt Emma reminiscence between our Mitchell and Black/BDU Mitchell, God, Mitchell is such a total “guy”. That’s such “guy” humor.

Dark, hard edged Black BDU Mitchell’s confrontation with our Mitchell. I loved the expression on our Mitchell's face when he realizes something is not right here. Love how Black BDU Mitchell stiffens up in frustration when he misses.

“I’ve been practicing my Sodan moves, you’ve been warned.” Ben’s got such a gift for physical comedy!

“Did he just insult me?”

The whole Black BDU Mitchell and Our Mitchell’s one on one confrontation. I loved watching Mitchell reason with “himself” and Black BDU Mitchell struggling with not a little guilt and discomfort. I loved that PD chose to go with a two in one shot here in the beginning with both Mitchells facing toward the camera so that we get what Our Mitchell is saying and Black BDU Mitchell's reactions to what he is saying at the same time. Nobody does a two in one shot better than Ben, even when it’s with himself! Ben played off Ben perfectly here; this scene was really well done.

“You don’t have beards, so you’re not from the evil twin universe.”

Black BDU Teal’c shoving disguised Mitchell into the cell. Somehow I don’t think that shove had been pre approved by his boss.

“No hitting!”

Ben in his underwear, there just are no words to adequately describe the goodness of a Ben in his underwear scene, so I won’t try. This scene makes this episode a keeper just all by itself.

Black BDU Mitchell’s parting shot to Our Mitchell and the expression on his face when he turns to walk through the gate. I’m thinking when the time comes, maybe not such a good idea to cut the green. Oh drat, now I have to wait for the episode where this happens before I can tell for sure whether or not Black BDU was just a darker, harder version of Our Mitchell. Or, if in the end, he was truly evil after all. Nice twist by the way!

This was fun! I actually thought that JM and PD used Ben rather well here in what felt to me anyways like a very “Stargate” type episode. And I am very, very hard to please. About the only thing I can complain about is the "does that mean I got to second base line" early on in the show. That line was just a too "stereotypical guy" kind of line. But other than that, hey, I had a good time!

I had to read this post twice just because it reminded me of so much Mitchell-goodness in this episode.

And, jeez, I thought writing up Collateral Damage was going to be hard...

[ChillinTheMost]

Well we really don't know whether Black BDU Mitchell is really choosing to do this or if he has been ordered out on this operation by AU Landry. Our Landry is willing to protect our universe even if it is at the expense of the universes of all the other SG-1 teams. So I can see a darker AU Landry ordering Black BDU Mitchell out on this mission.

We've seen Mitchell carry out an order that I think he really did not seem to agree with in Beach Head. I really would have loved to actually of gotten into exactly why Mitchell seemed so uncomfortable with that mission in Beachhead. We know why Sam is uncomfortable with it, because Vala asks her. She doesn't think the weapon is big enough to get the job done. We know that's not the reason why Mitchell doesn't like this mission; he seems to think this approach is over kill. And yet I still keep coming back to Mitchell as a character who would rather be wrong doing something than be wrong doing nothing. And since as Landry says, this is all we've got. Why wouldn't he be ok with the mission just on that basis? And yet to me anyways, he definitely doesn't like this mission. As he tells Vala we're going because we have orders. I keep coming back to he had to have thought there was a better way of dealing with this situation. I know there was a scene between Mitchell and Landry that was cut from Beachhead and I keep thinking that maybe the answer was there, or maybe not. It was just one more of the many, many things in the first half of the season that was driving me batty.

But back to Ripple Effect, no I don't think Our Mitchell would ever be able to justify this as a valid choice and I'm really not all that sure that Black BDU Mitchell sees it as a valid choice either. Black BDU Mitchell really does seem to feel some guilt about it. So I think it really comes down to when do you think Mitchell would reach the point that he would disobey an order? When would he stop being the "good soldier"?

Oh, I definitely think he felt quilty and uncomfortable about doing it, but I do think he thought it was necessary. I think he honestly believed that the danger to Atlantis if he took the ZPM was only a "maybe" and since the danger wasn't immediate, there was time to find an alternative, but the danger to his entire planet if he didn't take it was total destruction. Immediate, total destruction. A tough decision to make, but one that a good leader has to, and WILL make.

[ChillinTheMost]

I loved this episode, and I agree with everything you liked, Dream-a-Little. But I have a question for everyone. Was it as clear to you as it was to me that Cam was in charge in all of the various SG-1 teams? I didn't see Sam in charge of any of them, nor any kind of co-leadership. It was especially clear on the Prometheus when Mitchell sat in the big chair. And later, when Mitchell wanted to speak with Mitchell. Only the leaders would confer like that. Otherwise, Mitchell would want to talk to Sam or vice versa.

I just thought that it was interesting that when there was an opportunity to show Sam in charge they didn't. Of course, she had all of her science stuff to do, and that part of the ep was great. But they didn't have her commanding, and I haven't noticed her fans clamoring for her to be in command, either.

What does everyone here think?

Good point! I was having so much fun, I didn't even notice that. But then, I never pay attention to that because I just assume that Mitchell is in charge. He'll give Sam and the others all the leeway they need to do their job and even let them "take the lead" when need be [like Sam telling techs to set up], but he is definitely in charge.

[ChillinTheMost]

JM has said Ripple Effect references past events, present events and foreshadows things to come. Based on things said in this episode, the Black SG-1 team actually not only comes from an alternate universe, but they are also from further in the future than our current team.

Spoiler:

Black BDU Carter talks about how they failed to prevent the second Beachhead and that the Ori were sucessfull in getting ships through and destroying most of the Jaffa strongholds. Spoilers indicate that will indeed happen. And that the Jaffa strongholds will be attacked.

They come from somewhere in season 10. This makes sense on their part, since it wouldn't help them any to gate over to a current day AU where there was a better than even chance that our ZPM would also be depleted. They wouldn't have been willing to take that chance and we know that the gate does also provide for time travel.

So we are essentially looking at a Black BDU team that has lived through some experiences that our SG-1 team has yet to go through. For the most part they aren't really evil, they are just darker, harder and more ruthless. (Well unless of course Black BDU Mitchell just tried to set up Our Mitchell before heading back through the gate. Never trust a man who has been foiled in his mission and deprived of his pants. In that case maybe Black BDU Mitchell really just had an evil streak to begin with. )

Was it the events between the current day and the time that the Black BDU team originates from that made the members of the Black BDU SG-1 team who they are? And if so, what is the likelihood that at least some of our current day team will more closely resemble their Black BDU SG-1 counterparts in Season 10? In particular, could this mean that we will be getting a Mitchell with a harder, darker more ruthless edge to him as a result of events still to come?

I didn't think the black BDU team was evil. Ruthless? A little. Harder and darker? Yes. But they had to be. And if our world becomes like their world is, I can definitley see our team becoming like that. And I wouldn't want anyone less determined defending us.

Never trust a man who has been foiled in his mission and deprived of his pants.

Hee.

[ChillinTheMost]

Is it just me that doesn't really see the Black Team as evil? I just see a desperate determination to do anything they can to save their AU Earth. As Black Mitch said to Our Mitch... "how far will you go to save millions, don't worry I already know the answer". This seems to be a foreshadowing of difficult decisions that Our Mitch is going to face. Black Mitch seems to be in an advanced reality compared to our Earth as Dream has said, whereas Janet & Martouf were behind... I like Dream's idea that circumstances are going to make Our Team more hardened and tough moral decisions may have to be made.

The Black Team's main preoccupation with their reality seems to be something we'll do anyway. Note that Landry told Janet that they had the best minds working on a solution that hopefully will get them home, but if the push came to the shove our reality is the one that mattered... How is that different from the Black Team devising a plan that'd benefit their world? What will we do further down the line when things come to a head with the Ori and an Army of ships? Try and aquire the ZPM from a team further behind? - this could be a continuing circle.

I also personally didn't see Mitchell's parting smile as sinister. Perhaps, it's just me. I think they have already worked through a period of time where cutting the green wire was crucial and that our reality hasn't encountered this situation. I saw the parting comment as a mark of respect to fellow soldiers who had got the one upmanship. I also thought the look and smile was at their confusion and also more of a resigned smile on behalf of Black Mitch. I didn't get the vibe that they really would wish their fellow selves into a deliberately harmful situation.

I'm glad I finally got to your post, Kas! I agree that the Black team wasn't evil. Mitchell didn't even think they were evil. Besides his beard joke, he seemed to understand why they were doing what they were doing. I wish he had made a remark about finding out if any of the other realities represented had additional ZPMs.

The "cut the green wire" line seemed to be teasing. I refuse to believe that he was endangering an alternate Mitchell. [Even if I'm proven wrong!] I think that there was no green wire anywhere and that he was just leaving a cliched tease to get under the other Mitchell's skin.

Spoiler:

Even though I've heard that there is a future episode that this is in, I'm going to believe that the wires are every color but green and he was just making our Mitchell squirm a bit. And if there is a green wire in the future? There wasn't one in the alternate Mitchell's. Denial? What's denial? He's NOT evil!!!

[ChillinTheMost]

I agree that Cam Mitchell was clear Leader of all teams except it seems for Janet Frasier Team... but then he was probably military leader on a medical mission... the Doctor would presumably do the negotiating in medical matters and she 'was' a character with strong ties to Our SG, hence only featuring her.

I've seen that other certain fans are jumping for joy that Sam was 'commanding' OurSGTeam and ordering Mitchell in the strategedy once they escaped the cell but they are just listening to words and not really thinking of the scene. Firstly, she tells where to go and they comply... but why? She only became their leading officer at that point because their Mitchell is ABSENT. They knew he'd been replaced and hence she took command and they'd hatched the plan to mislead DisguisedBlackMitchell. They would follow the lead of the military officer in charge at that point.

People say why did BlackMitchell as GreenOurMitchell, just go along with her giving the orders if he though OurMitchell was leader? Well, I say watch the scene. Carter tells them where to go but before Teal'c says "very well" and acknowledges her, he looks at FakeMitchell who gives a nod of authorisation... Teal'c then says "very well" and off they go.

I guess I don't pay attention to these things because all that went by me. And while I believe Mitchell to be the leader, I have no problem with others "taking the lead" when necessary. Of course, with your explanation, the "real" Mitchell wasn't there to lead anyway, so somebody had to step up.

I was wondering if they thought of the possibility of a fake Mitchell before he even left the room and they had a code word that the real Mitchell would give if he did come back. Notice how Sam waited for Mitchell to say something before enacting the plan? Maybe she was waiting for the code word, didn't get it, and then took the command position and went on to Plan B.

Even though they didn't mention a code word when explaining how they knew there might be a substitution, it would make sense that they wouldn't tell all their secrets in case the situation might arise again. They might have had 3 weeks out there after all...