Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Nynaeve506]

Cags - I'm a fellow Laira defender!!! In fact when I wrote a fic where Sam was stranded on Edora with Jack, I think I painted her in a very positive light (can't link it here cuz it's "M", but my fic link is in my sig for those interested - it's called "It Comes and It Goes" - man, I just shamelessly plug myself all over the place!).

Jack and Laira do have a nice chemistry - the main difference I see in between Sam and Jack verses him and Laira is that it doesn't quite have the same heat. I've always felt their relationship was more of a comfortable, well worn shoe type - two people who had been married before and were in a very similar place in their lives. Both had lost people that were incredibly dear, both had experienced that deep mourning, and both were trying to adapt to a situation that was less than ideal. Some people felt that Laira was predatory but I mean, Jack, as far as she knows (and technically) is a free man trapped on her world. He's a hard worker and they have a good compatibility, why wouldn't she pursue him?

I think this episode does help highlight Sam's emotions so that when we get to D&C we can say definitively that this is not a one sided attraction. Not that we don't have hints elsewhere but that scene with Janet sort of cements it.

Okay I'm exhausted, I need to stop analyzing or my brain will explode.

[JenniferJF]

100 Days is one of my husband's favorite episodes because it's a lifestyle which, in many ways, appeals to him and I think it appeals to Jack, too. In fact, I think 100 Days represents almost a fantasy for Jack. Or at least a temptation - an escape from the stress and responsibility of 'real life' where the greatest challenge is managing to keep chopping wood after surviving rot gut. Real life is complicated, stressful, dangerous...

So, life on Edora is a direct contrast to life on SG-1, and I think Laira is a direct foil to Sam. Laira is very maternal and almost stereotypically 'wifey', Sam is anything but. Jack could have a life there with Laira, become a husband and father who is, effectively, worshiped and adored. Simple and relatively uncomplicated.

Sam is, obviously, anything but. Life with her - even if possible - would be hard and complicated, and would take some serious *work* I mean, even if you assume they're together now, it's not half as simple and serene as life with Laira would have been.

I think the first scene immediately sets up this contrast, with Laira admiring the beauty and history of the shower and Jack so clearly wanting to simply see the beauty of it, and Sam like a burst of cold water being all science and practical. That's why I think Jack is so harsh with Sam (cause I see that to) - being with Laira and on Edora has sort of seduced him into wanting to be able to look at everything their way, and so Sam's view is especially grating to him in contrast. He's not *there* - not interested in Sam's geeky scienceness. He's on Edora, so to speak.

And so, given he begins to believe he won't make it back to the SGC, he does eventually succumb to the temptation of that lifestyle, and I do think part of him longs for that sort of life, which is why he seems so reluctant to really leave it. Only.. He does. Because he does have responsibilities and he does have things he has to do. The SGC (and Sam) might be harder, but that's who he is...

Of course, this is all subconscious and sort of hidden themes and Jack isn't aware of this at all.. but I do think that desire for the simple uncomplicated life - and for someone who can understand what it's like to live with grief - is a Very Big temptation for Jack here, but one which he overcomes when he goes back to the SGC.

On an aside, I like the contrast between Jack's attitude here, that with the gate buried he's stranded, and his attitude by Paradise Lost that he's going to get rescued. As even my husband says during PL when Maybourne is whining about never getting back, "Ah... you don't know his 'girlfriend'. She's gonna come get his a** It's what she does." Of course, Teal'c and everyone else helps, but I do think by then he does know Sam (and the others) really do have his six even from that far away

[josiane]

Great review Cags, and count me as another one who doesn't hate this episode or Laira all that much, really. I do think her initial reaction to hearing the radio is selfish, but it's also understandable, especially as she only just 'got' him - her heart must have just sunk at that point. But she does tell him, and she also understands that he is going to leave and chooses not to go with him - she chooses to let him go at that point and deny her own feelings, because she sees that his life on Earth and his work with the SGC is more important to him and that she can't (and won't) compete with that.

There’s quite a lingering shot of Sam after they first attempt to dial Edora and the MALP is destroyed, and again after the second MALP is sent.

The scene between Sam and Janet where Sam admits to missing him and is very quick to deny there’s a "problem" with how she feels. And just in case you feel like deluding yourself into thinking this is just about their friendship, there’s that subtle rework of the Sam/Jack theme playing here to cue you in that this is about Sam having romantic feelings Jack.

There’s also the end scene. They didn’t have to cut back to Sam turning looking a bit green there when Jack’s saying goodbye to Laira. The only conclusion for them doing so is that they want to emphasise that Sam wasn’t expecting to see that and it’s left her hurt and confused. It’s very significant, particularly with what happens in the next episode.

One other observation, not about Sam and Jack but about Laira and Jack is that there’s a lot of reaction shots off Jack to Laira and vice versa. This is evident right from the start of the episode and it’s the intent of the episode to set up the romantic relationship between them. Now apply that logic to other episodes and think of the time there’s reaction shots off of Jack onto Sam or the other way round. There's quite a lot of it, isn't there.

Oh absolutely - it's the classic way of setting up a relationship visually and you're right that it's interesting to see them doing it here with Jack and Laira, where the one-off case with intent apparent illuminates what they've been doing the entire way through the show (and continue to do) with Jack and Sam

100 Days is one of my husband's favorite episodes because it's a lifestyle which, in many ways, appeals to him and I think it appeals to Jack, too. In fact, I think 100 Days represents almost a fantasy for Jack. Or at least a temptation - an escape from the stress and responsibility of 'real life' where the greatest challenge is managing to keep chopping wood after surviving rot gut. Real life is complicated, stressful, dangerous...

So, life on Edora is a direct contrast to life on SG-1, and I think Laira is a direct foil to Sam. Laira is very maternal and almost stereotypically 'wifey', Sam is anything but. Jack could have a life there with Laira, become a husband and father who is, effectively, worshiped and adored. Simple and relatively uncomplicated.

Sam is, obviously, anything but. Life with her - even if possible - would be hard and complicated, and would take some serious *work* I mean, even if you assume they're together now, it's not half as simple and serene as life with Laira would have been.

I think the first scene immediately sets up this contrast, with Laira admiring the beauty and history of the shower and Jack so clearly wanting to simply see the beauty of it, and Sam like a burst of cold water being all science and practical. That's why I think Jack is so harsh with Sam (cause I see that to) - being with Laira and on Edora has sort of seduced him into wanting to be able to look at everything their way, and so Sam's view is especially grating to him in contrast. He's not *there* - not interested in Sam's geeky scienceness. He's on Edora, so to speak.

And so, given he begins to believe he won't make it back to the SGC, he does eventually succumb to the temptation of that lifestyle, and I do think part of him longs for that sort of life, which is why he seems so reluctant to really leave it. Only.. He does. Because he does have responsibilities and he does have things he has to do. The SGC (and Sam) might be harder, but that's who he is...

Of course, this is all subconscious and sort of hidden themes and Jack isn't aware of this at all.. but I do think that desire for the simple uncomplicated life - and for someone who can understand what it's like to live with grief - is a Very Big temptation for Jack here, but one which he overcomes when he goes back to the SGC.

There's also a comparison to be made here within Jack and Sam's relationship, not just in comparing Laira to Sam and the SGC together, in the way that he and Sam both choose the more complicated option of putting SG1 above their desire for a personal relationship. They could, either of them, walk at any time, leave, transfer, retire, whatever, if they chose to turn their backs on the SGC and then they would be able to have the relationship they want. But from the moment they realise their feelings they choose not to do this - particularly obviously D&C - and choose to put their work first. It's the same as Jack's constant wish to retire (and notable that Kerry suggests that very thing just as Jack is making his decision about Sam in Threads), and is something we see over and over again in his character - just think of AUJack in Moebius, who has retired but still comes back! He might long for that kind of simple life but his sense of duty is just too strong, and that applies to his relationship with Sam as well.

On an aside, I like the contrast between Jack's attitude here, that with the gate buried he's stranded, and his attitude by Paradise Lost that he's going to get rescued. As even my husband says during PL when Maybourne is whining about never getting back, "Ah... you don't know his 'girlfriend'. She's gonna come get his a** It's what she does." Of course, Teal'c and everyone else helps, but I do think by then he does know Sam (and the others) really do have his six even from that far away

Yes, me too

[scapephile]

I want to say I am happy to see this thread picking up!

[Rachel500]

A Hundred Days

Cags - great review if only GW would let me green you. And thanks for the shout out yesterday

The episode definitely examines an interesting what if - what if one of them got stranded and had to face living their lives out on another planet? Because it's always been a danger that it could happen but they've almost always been stranded before as a team, or in a pair, and never for such an extended length of time.

And by showing that length of time between the event that strands them and the rescue they get to show that emotional journey for the character. Jack's relationship with Laira is part of that journey. What the episode also does very well is contrast his journey with that of Sam's back on Earth to get him home.

Jack, Jack/Laira:

I don't hate Laira, and I do agree she is distorted in a lot of fics to play up the angst and sympathy for Sam, but I'm not really fond of her as a character either - and not just because she's pursuing Jack.

I enjoy the fact that actually she is a mature woman almost equivalent to Jack in years and experience. She's a believable 'other' for him. I always put her around the same age that Sara would have been. And in many ways, I think Laira and Garan, a woman and a son without a husband and father, is a representation of Jack's past - he's a man who no longer has a wife and son. There's symmetry in their coming together, and possibly in many ways Jack may even subconsciously be very attracted and seduced even by the idea of gaining what he had lost. I'm afraid I don't see natural chemistry (which is my main issue with the pairing beyond some of Laira's later characterisation) rather than scripted flirting but there is an ease about them in the second half when they get together (well worn shoe is apt I think).

I also agree with Jenn that the Edoran lifestyle is a contrast to Earth. There's a serenity, a peace, a simplicity to it. It's stripped down living without complexity - and I can see the appeal to Jack, because as his love of the cabin and fishing show, he has a need for that in his life. He does appreciate simple things and find a great deal of enjoyment in them (much like the lesson he gives to Merrin - don't worry so much about drawing the flowers correctly, just enjoy drawing the flowers).

I don't think Jack gives up so much as he comes to accept his situation; he is where he is. I think that is effectively the point of the scene at the river where Laira speaks to him of her grief. Jack is grieving - not just for the loss of his home but of the people in his life. He knows it'll be a long time before someone comes looking for him especially with the gate evidently completely buried. When we leave him at that point, he hasn't accepted his situation; he's msierable and lonely; he's angry, depressed. And Laira reaches out to him and helps him to start moving on.

By the time we see him again, he's almost at the end of that journey. He's evidently helped them rebuild; he's contributing to the community, earning his keep - and he's at least begun courting Laira given the kiss they share when she greets him. But he hasn't quite let go completely. He even tells Laira that a part of him is always going to yearn for his past when they become lovers. His acquiescence to her getting rid of his old things, IMO, is not because he's ready for that but more because he wants to reassure her of his commitment given their night together.

But I actually think Jack is happy to be going home - and Laira sees that (the speed at which he heads out to start digging for the gate rather gives it away). And I think he feels very guilty that he's happy which is why he denies it. Plus he's feeling guilty because he did commit to her and he's not someone who would easily break a commitment (hence the invite to Earth). Laira, to her credit, graciously lets him go - because I think she knows whatever he says, his heart is truly not hers, not truly on Edora.

On Laira: I think the set up for her character is well done. She's clearly a matriarchal figure with responsibilities in the village, a strong woman in some ways yet used to a culture which encourages partnership and marriage - and I do think she pins Jack as a strong man who would make her a good partner, and she does go after him. My issues with Laira's character are more in the latter beats (the mention that she wants a child with him, the pushing him on getting rid of clothes - which as someone else has mentioned in the past is out of character in a society which would value reuse and no wastage, the length of time it takes her to inform him of the radio message) which edge her into more 'clingy' territory.

Sam, Sam/Jack: By contrast we also Sam's journey as she realises her feelings. I do believe that Sam fools herself for most of the three months that's she's working on the particle beam generator. I think she convinces herself as evidenced by her denial to Janet that her missing him is down to their friendship, and OK, maybe she has a crush and finds him attractive but that's all there is and it's not a problem...and then she sees him with someone else and she suddenly gets it. It's not a crush. It's not just attraction. It's not friendship. She has serious feelings for him.

I do think Jack, when he gets home and hears how hard she worked to get him home, has to start getting a clue that she might feel something for him. And maybe consciously he dismisses as friendship, as part of their commitment to never leaving someone behind but I think it has to prompt the question and it's interesting (to me at least) in Shades of Grey that she's the one he picks out first when he spies on SG1.

I've rambled.

EDIT: And yay for us making 100 pages!

[slurredspeech]

Jack, Jack/Laira:

I don't hate Laira, and I do agree she is distorted in a lot of fics to play up the angst and sympathy for Sam, but I'm not really fond of her as a character either - and not just because she's pursuing Jack.

I'm afraid I don't see natural chemistry (which is my main issue with the pairing beyond some of Laira's later characterisation) rather than scripted flirting but there is an ease about them in the second half when they get together (well worn shoe is apt I think).

On Laira: I think the set up for her character is well done. She's clearly a matriarchal figure with responsibilities in the village, a strong woman in some ways yet used to a culture which encourages partnership and marriage - and I do think she pins Jack as a strong man who would make her a good partner, and she does go after him. My issues with Laira's character are more in the latter beats (the mention that she wants a child with him, the pushing him on getting rid of clothes - which as someone else has mentioned in the past is out of character in a society which would value reuse and no wastage, the length of time it takes her to inform him of the radio message) which edge her into more 'clingy' territory.

Parts snipped solely for space, as I agree with every word you posted. Particularly so with the bolded parts, which, being in a bit of a hurry, I just want to quickly address (tutoring on Saturdays sucks!)

Laira. I agree she's too often villified in fics, and it grates on me to no end. I, too, enjoyed the way she was set up -- the gentle, calm, soothing, mature (and I don't mean age-wise) woman, taking interest in an attractive, capable man. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and it does make sense.

That said. I don't see the chemistry either, I'm afraid. Again, I need to stress that this is not because I feel horribly offended or possessive on behalf of Sam; simply, they didn't click for me, beyond the familiar closeness that came as the story progressed. I see them as two people who find in each other what all people need - companionship, comfort, closeness - because it feels good and comfortable rather than because they couldn't possibly imagine not having it with that particular person. You know?
Granted, it was probably more for Laira, though I'm not convinced what she felt for Jack was the (crazy) undying love many will ascribe to her in fics.

They kind of degraded the character in my eyes near the end - for all the reasons you wrote up in your post. I know both the baby storyline and her hesitation in telling him about the message were there for dramatic effect, but... ah! I don't know, they just didn't sit well with me for some reason. I can understand both, mind you, and her wanting a child as well as her reluctance to let him go are human, but...
As much as three months is a long time to be stranded, it's also a short time to know a person, so the whole 'Give me a baby' bit felt a little rushed and... pushy.
As for the latter, well that's rather self-explanatory. I think I would have been even fonder of Laira had it been left on the cutting room floor.

Perhaps the crappiest but truest reason for my dislike of those bits - and the 'second part of the episode' Laira - is simply my natural aversion to needy and clingy characters (or people, to be honest). It's not profound, I know, but there you go.

I do have to say that I really don't like the very end. Again, no matter how 'human' Jack's reaction is, and no matter the fact I can rationalize it and explain his behaviour to myself, even come close to understanding it, it still makes me cringe, and sort of casts a shaddow on the entire episode.
Not (just) because it's Carter. I would feel exactly the same if it was Daniel who spent the last three sleepless months trying to get him home. They're his Team, his brothers in arms, his friends; dare I say his family.
It should have been done differently. They could have had Jack say goodbye to Laira in the exact same way he did, and still have a warm Team moment. A short one would have sufficed.

I could understand it if they had followed through with the Laira and/or Jack's angst about returning to Earth storyline(s). But they didn't. And so I can't help but feel his reaction was a (forced) way of them accentuating that 'OMG LOOK. Carter has feelings for him. See? See?'

It didn't do much for either character, in that moment.

Just my 0.2. Okay, now I'm really running late.

[JenniferJF]

Sam, Sam/Jack: By contrast we also Sam's journey as she realises her feelings. I do believe that Sam fools herself for most of the three months that's she's working on the particle beam generator. I think she convinces herself as evidenced by her denial to Janet that her missing him is down to their friendship, and OK, maybe she has a crush and finds him attractive but that's all there is and it's not a problem...and then she sees him with someone else and she suddenly gets it. It's not a crush. It's not just attraction. It's not friendship. She has serious feelings for him.

I just have to point this out, cause it's not that often we disagree . I think Sam knew when she told Janet that it wasn't a problem that she was fully in love with Jack. I think she was, effectively, telling Janet what she later told Jack in D&C, that she could 'keep it (her feelings) in the room' and not let them effect anything. It wasn't a problem not because she didn't love Jack, didn't feel more than she should have for a senior officer, but because she was In Control of the situation and her emotions and was not going to 'give in' to them. Effectively, this seems to be Sam's modus operandi until Threads when she suddenly realizes she can't ignore her feelings for Jack as though they were unimportant and must make the changes necessary to be with him or face a long lonely miserable lif even if she's playing house with someone else. I'm not going to rec my own 100 Days tag again, but that's pretty much how I think Sam thought of it: she loved Jack O'Neill, but she wasn't going to do anything about it and they were just feelings she'd have to keep under control.

[Rachel500]

I just have to point this out, cause it's not that often we disagree . I think Sam knew when she told Janet that it wasn't a problem that she was fully in love with Jack. I think she was, effectively, telling Janet what she later told Jack in D&C, that she could 'keep it (her feelings) in the room' and not let them effect anything. It wasn't a problem not because she didn't love Jack, didn't feel more than she should have for a senior officer, but because she was In Control of the situation and her emotions and was not going to 'give in' to them. Effectively, this seems to be Sam's modus operandi until Threads when she suddenly realizes she can't ignore her feelings for Jack as though they were unimportant and must make the changes necessary to be with him or face a long lonely miserable lif even if she's playing house with someone else. I'm not going to rec my own 100 Days tag again, but that's pretty much how I think Sam thought of it: she loved Jack O'Neill, but she wasn't going to do anything about it and they were just feelings she'd have to keep under control.

Not often that we disagree at all but we will on this , as I'll maintain that I don't think Sam *knew* she was in love with Jack - otherwise I think she would have reacted differently to Laira at the beginning (Laira certainly wasn't hiding her interest and Sam doesn't seem to react to her as a rival and just seems to be respectful).

If Sam had truly thought/had been actively aware that she *loved* Jack at that point, I think we would have seen more of a reaction from Sam re Laira before Jack gets trapped.

What we do get (her concern when he goes with Laira to find Garan and staying until the last moment waiting for him anxiously) does give away her caring and concern for him which is why I don't disagree that Sam has fallen in love with Jack before he gets trapped. I just don't think she recognises that she's fallen in love on top of loving and caring for him as a close friend and a team-mate.

Which is why she was able to respond to Janet with her denial. Because she truly didn't believe it was a problem, and continues to delude herself in my eyes right up until the moment she was fairly slapped in the face with the reality of her reaction to him being with someone else.

Beyond that, I would agree with you. I think Sam beyond A Hundred Days convinces herself that it doesn't matter if she's in love with him because she's in control of her emotions and can serve with him without the mission being impacted and I tend to think the period between A Hundred Days and D&C tends to *prove* that to her - because for a large part of that time she's serving with him, loving him and handling it (but of course she only believes that because she interprets the evidence the way she wants to see it given her deeper fears).

By the time she makes the offer to keep it in the room she's had months of practical experience to believe that they could keep it in the room.

[Rachel500]

<snip>
They kind of degraded the character in my eyes near the end - for all the reasons you wrote up in your post. I know both the baby storyline and her hesitation in telling him about the message were there for dramatic effect, but... ah! I don't know, they just didn't sit well with me for some reason. I can understand both, mind you, and her wanting a child as well as her reluctance to let him go are human, but...

As much as three months is a long time to be stranded, it's also a short time to know a person, so the whole 'Give me a baby' bit felt a little rushed and... pushy.

As for the latter, well that's rather self-explanatory. I think I would have been even fonder of Laira had it been left on the cutting room floor.

Perhaps the crappiest but truest reason for my dislike of those bits - and the 'second part of the episode' Laira - is simply my natural aversion to needy and clingy characters (or people, to be honest). It's not profound, I know, but there you go.

<snip>

It's kind of what they do with Pete too. He starts Chimera off being actually being a reasonable 'other' before the whole temper tantrum, investigating her and following her to the stake-out nonsense.

And to the part I bolded: yes. I fear this is actually my problem too

[JenniferJF]

Not often that we disagree at all but we will on this , as I'll maintain that I don't think Sam *knew* she was in love with Jack - otherwise I think she would have reacted differently to Laira at the beginning (Laira certainly wasn't hiding her interest and Sam doesn't seem to react to her as a rival and just seems to be respectful).

If Sam had truly thought/had been actively aware that she *loved* Jack at that point, I think we would have seen more of a reaction from Sam re Laira before Jack gets trapped.

What we do get (her concern when he goes with Laira to find Garan and staying until the last moment waiting for him anxiously) does give away her caring and concern for him which is why I don't disagree that Sam has fallen in love with Jack before he gets trapped. I just don't think she recognises that she's fallen in love on top of loving and caring for him as a close friend and a team-mate.

lol. We're actually fewer degrees of separation than that. I think Sam figured it out in her reaction to Jack's being trapped on Eudora in her own despair and desperation to get him back, and in how much she was missing him. So, I agree, she didn't know at the beginning with Laira or she would have acted very, very differently. We're only very very slightly different here, and it comes down to what we think Sam was actually denying in the talk with Janet, I think. You that she was denying that she had feelings which might cause a problem, and me that she was deluded into thinking the feelings she had weren't a problem because she could handle them...

[Rachel500]

lol. We're actually fewer degrees of separation than that. I think Sam figured it out in her reaction to Jack's being trapped on Eudora in her own despair and desperation to get him back, and in how much she was missing him. So, I agree, she didn't know at the beginning with Laira or she would have acted very, very differently. We're only very very slightly different here, and it comes down to what we think Sam was actually denying in the talk with Janet, I think. You that she was denying that she had feelings which might cause a problem, and me that she was deluded into thinking the feelings she had weren't a problem because she could handle them...

[JenniferJF]

Help!! The Ship appreciation Thread's been closed. So I came here to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. It seemed the logical thing to do.

[Nynaeve506]

Help!! The Ship appreciation Thread's been closed. So I came here to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. It seemed the logical thing to do.

Hmmmm who do we have to throw to TPTB in order to save our thread?

Wait aren't we supposed to be serious over here? ....

I guess I'll just have to be quiet cuz I got nuthin'

[josiane]

*builds campfire*
*joins hands*
*sings*

[RepliCartertje]

It's weird without the thread... At least we have this thread Hopefully they can fix it.


So...what we singing??

ETA: No Our thread can't be fixed...Meep! So we get a new one...