Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

Sort of, but not exactly related: I think that in reality, most people have this problem with choices in their lives. They don't understand that they often can have most or all of the things they really want and don't have to choose one important thing over another important thing. If they think beyond their walls(?) and use their imagination/curiosity in order to find ways to make things work for them, they can often have all that they want (as Jacob told Sam in "Grace"). It doesn't always mean it's going to be easy, though.

(Sorry if I totally muddled that. I know what I meant.)

Oh, I completely see what you're getting at. That's the problem with these fork-in-the-road moments like in PoV, Grace and Affinity. It isn't either/or.... work vs. love... Jack and Sam were just afraid to face up to it for various other reasons which is why it seems to me it wasn't just about the regs. COuld they have come up with some other arrangement? By the time of Grace Sam actually said she'd leave the Air Force if she knew- but of course she could have just gone to Area 51 sooner than she did. In Affinity Jack said "he wouldn't be here," which might have indicated he'd been willing to change things around for a shot at personal happiness, too. Maybe Sam could have had her own team. Who knows? They let their other issues get in the way and couldn't even talk about it.

This is a good point too, as well as what Rachel said in response. And it's similar to what we heard her say in PoV, her obvious pride in the fact that she made the choice to have a military career in our reality. She makes the link there with her being in the military contributing to Earth's survival, and I think this idea takes rather firm root in her mind from that point on. She believes her place in the military is important for the whole world, not just for herself, and this will inevitably make her more concerned that giving that up in order to obtain the personal happiness of a relationship with Jack could backfire horribly for the rest of the planet. It's quite a stumbling block to get over!

That point in bold has always interested me, as has the whole idea of the butterfly effect. Throughout all of their time travels, Sam has always emphasized not changing anything so as to preserve the timelines. But you know, that doesn't count going into the future. You just place your best bets and take your chances. There isn't anything anyone can do about all the random things that contribute to the future, either. If a person really felt the fate of the world rested on every little thing they do from now on, it'd be a recipe for insanity. Fortunately, quantum mechanics introduces random chance so that things only look like fate in retrospect.

So while I do think that Sam wanted very much to continue doing the job she was meant to do, and that it was a critical role for her to play, I don't know if she was afraid to change because of an idea about fate or causality. Based on her experiences in TbftGoG and PoV, she might feel like it's her destiny. But she's a physicist and ought to know better. And like any human being, she had her uncertainties which were probably the biggest part of her problem with Jack.

[Nynaeve506]

Oh, I completely see what you're getting at. That's the problem with these fork-in-the-road moments like in PoV, Grace and Affinity. It isn't either/or.... work vs. love... Jack and Sam were just afraid to face up to it for various other reasons which is why it seems to me it wasn't just about the regs. COuld they have come up with some other arrangement? By the time of Grace Sam actually said she'd leave the Air Force if she knew- but of course she could have just gone to Area 51 sooner than she did. In Affinity Jack said "he wouldn't be here," which might have indicated he'd been willing to change things around for a shot at personal happiness, too. Maybe Sam could have had her own team. Who knows? They let their other issues get in the way and couldn't even talk about it.

It's interesting that you mention "Grace" where Sam is willing to give up her career to be with Jack. It makes me wonder about the evolution of those feelings over seven years. I think back in S. 4 we have an attraction, "feelings" but by the time we get to "Grace" I think we have actual love. It's the tension I think a lot of women go through - when she started this gig she was young, she had her life ahead of her. Now that biological clock is ticking and she's sitting a few years from 40 and looking at her life saying "Is this it? Was this worth everything I've given up?" and she's not so sure.

I think if they'd had an honest discussion they could have come up with a solution. At the point of "Grace", I think Sam would have been willing to resign her commission and work as a civilian in her role, but in S. 3 or 4, I think she's still enamored with the idea of being military. I suppose a transfer to another team might have done it. But we'll never know.

This does raise an interesting point which I know we go round and round about - why didn't they talk about it? Sam is the bolder of the two and even she's convoluted ("What about you sir?"). The regs keep them from "officially" talking about it (but then I was just thinking, wouldn't they have a duty to talk about it?) but there seems to be a fear too...

Okay. I'm done.

[hedwig]

This does raise an interesting point which I know we go round and round about - why didn't they talk about it? Sam is the bolder of the two and even she's convoluted ("What about you sir?"). The regs keep them from "officially" talking about it (but then I was just thinking, wouldn't they have a duty to talk about it?) but there seems to be a fear too...

Okay. I'm done.

I've often wondered about the bolded part myself. Even though it is apparently against the regs to even talk about it, if they had talked about it I'm quite sure neither one of them would have reported the other to anyone for doing so. A private discussion could have cleared the air of a lot of things and maybe made things a little easier to deal with through all those years, and stopped a lot of the thoughts of whether one still cared about the other, and maybe they could have come to some kind of understanding about what they could do at the moment, and what they could do down the road. The way it was all done is far more angsty(?) and causes more problems, but it would have made things so much easier (in some ways) for both of them.

[EvenstarSRV]

I think if they'd had an honest discussion they could have come up with a solution. At the point of "Grace", I think Sam would have been willing to resign her commission and work as a civilian in her role, but in S. 3 or 4, I think she's still enamored with the idea of being military. I suppose a transfer to another team might have done it. But we'll never know.

But didn't Sam also tell herself that Jack would never ask her to give up her career for him? I think even if Sam went to Jack and said she'd resign her commission, Jack wouldn't let her do that just so they could be in a relationship. I mean, I don't think that arrangement would be very fair to Sam, and it could lead to some resentment down the line which could complicate their relationship.

This does raise an interesting point which I know we go round and round about - why didn't they talk about it? Sam is the bolder of the two and even she's convoluted ("What about you sir?"). The regs keep them from "officially" talking about it (but then I was just thinking, wouldn't they have a duty to talk about it?) but there seems to be a fear too...

I think it's because of the don't ask, don't tell philosophy, if they never officially talk about it they don't have to officially deal with the consequences. I think even if they talked about it in private, they'd be honor-bound to report the issue.

[Nynaeve506]

But didn't Sam also tell herself that Jack would never ask her to give up her career for him? I think even if Sam went to Jack and said she'd resign her commission, Jack wouldn't let her do that just so they could be in a relationship. I mean, I don't think that arrangement would be very fair to Sam, and it could lead to some resentment down the line which could complicate their relationship.



I think it's because of the don't ask, don't tell philosophy, if they never officially talk about it they don't have to officially deal with the consequences. I think even if they talked about it in private, they'd be honor-bound to report the issue.

I think there's a huge difference between Jack asking her to give up her career and her choosing to give up her career. The fact is that the conversation never happened so things went the way they did... but IF they had at least broached the topic then they could have worked towards a solution. The problem with the conversation in "Grace" is that it was ultimately all in her head. I often wonder what the real Jack O'Neill would have said...

[EvenstarSRV]

I think there's a huge difference between Jack asking her to give up her career and her choosing to give up her career. The fact is that the conversation never happened so things went the way they did... but IF they had at least broached the topic then they could have worked towards a solution. The problem with the conversation in "Grace" is that it was ultimately all in her head. I often wonder what the real Jack O'Neill would have said...

Well, personally, I don't think the real Jack would have let Sam give up her career. Her career was still on the rise while his was mostly plateauing or winding down, I think the promotion to General took him completely by surprise. And I think he knows how much pride Sam has in her military career, and how proud he is of her accomplishments himself, to let her give it up for a relationship, with him or anyone else IMO.

My take on that conversation was Sam reasoning with herself that she was just using the Air Force as an excuse for not pursuing anything with Jack, that there were other obstacles that she needed to deal with. And while she considered resigning, I think her thinking to herself (via Jack) that he'd never ask her to give up his career for him, suggests that she really didn't want to give up her career for him either.

[VSS]

I've often wondered about the bolded part myself. Even though it is apparently against the regs to even talk about it, if they had talked about it I'm quite sure neither one of them would have reported the other to anyone for doing so. A private discussion could have cleared the air of a lot of things and maybe made things a little easier to deal with through all those years, and stopped a lot of the thoughts of whether one still cared about the other, and maybe they could have come to some kind of understanding about what they could do at the moment, and what they could do down the road. The way it was all done is far more angsty(?) and causes more problems, but it would have made things so much easier (in some ways) for both of them.

I'm not sure a conversation would have been against the regs any more than the two of them feeling as they did (and really, the entire team being too close-knit when you get right down to it). Even President Hayes said "they're entitled to their feelings". If you read the rules, they're actually more aimed at preventing fraternization between enlisted and officers, and when you get to the part about officers it becomes a great deal more subjective and largely the responsibility of their CO, though I think everyone would agree a romance would be a bad idea while Jack was her direct supervising officer. And from D & C and Entity there's reason to believe Hammond was sympathetic, probably a lot more than he's supposed to be, too. I think the regs provided a convenient excuse not to have a conversation, though, especially for Jack, since he could just end or redirect the conversation and there's not much Sam could really do about it.

It's just a complicated situation for both of them. Maybe not for your average adult but like I said a while back, they're:

(picture by Sarai, text by me)

[Nynaeve506]

I'm not sure a conversation would have been against the regs any more than the two of them feeling as they did (and really, the entire team being too close-knit when you get right down to it). Even President Hayes said "they're entitled to their feelings". If you read the rules, they're actually more aimed at preventing fraternization between enlisted and officers, and when you get to the part about officers it becomes a great deal more subjective and largely the responsibility of their CO, though I think everyone would agree a romance would be a bad idea while Jack was her direct supervising officer. And from D & C and Entity there's reason to believe Hammond was sympathetic, probably a lot more than he's supposed to be, too. I think the regs provided a convenient excuse not to have a conversation, though, especially for Jack, since he could just end or redirect the conversation and there's not much Sam could really do about it.

It's just a complicated situation for both of them. Maybe not for your average adult but like I said a while back, they're:

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...tos/dweebs.jpg

(picture by Sarai, text by me)

Love that pic! Great.

The fact that they never had that conversation makes it seem like there were these writers that had a successful show that had a plotline that required the two of them to remain on the same... oh wait.

LOL

Evenstar - I agree that Jack wouldn't want Sam to give up her career *for him* - if she said she were giving up to have a different life (which just so happened to include him) then I think he probably wouldn't fight her on it.

I wonder if part of what prevents the conversation is the fear of changing the dynamics of the relationship. If the conversation goes south, how is that going to affect the team, the working relationship yada yada yada? It's kind of crazy how they take insane risks with their lives on a regular basis but play it safe when it comes to the emotional stuff.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

question are you guys going to do every season 3 episode? or just the ones that has shippy in it?

[Nynaeve506]

question are you guys going to do every season 3 episode? or just the ones that has shippy in it?

We have all of them slated Soooo yes all of them. Of course we all wear shippy glasses and intend to prove that you can make ANY episode shippy. ANY.... okay... well... maybe not.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

We have all of them slated Soooo yes all of them. Of course we all wear shippy glasses and intend to prove that you can make ANY episode shippy. ANY.... okay... well... maybe not.

even season 9 and 10 episodes wow.

[Cagranosalis]

even season 9 and 10 episodes wow.

I think the plan is to do every episode regardless of ship content and, if there's something worth mentioning, we'll mention it. It there's nothing (obvious) worth mentioning, we''l put on our Extra Strength Ship Tinted glasses and find it!

Personally my approach to all this is to find as much evidence of ship wherever I can/ Even if I don't actually "see" a particular scene or moment as especially shippy in a romantic sense for me, I will likely comment on it so others have the point there for debate and disection if necessary.
I shall be watching / posting Demons later today.


VSS, that was a lovely review for Deadman Switch and I have really enjoyed reading all the comments and discussions on it. I was going to comment last night but I think everyone has just about beaten me to it.

I did particularly want to comment on that last post of yours about regulations and interpretation/conversations - or rather post a chain of thought that set off for me.
You do read a lot of fanfic that has them having had a discussion and now waiting for each other which - while it's a nice concept to explore in fanfic - I don't see as being in canon since I don't see them ever having done so. If they had, why on earth did Sam then move on in Grace? No, I don't think they ever made "promises" of a time when they might be together, nor do I think they ever really, truely acknowledged any real desire to each other to make a relationship between them work out - until Threads of course - although they may have made oblique references to their feelings at times without thrashing out the details. If they had really discussed matters, then I don't see what would have stopped them from finding a way to persue a relationship sooner. If the regulations are really that subjective it would have been a simple matter of transferring one of them off of SG-1 (maybe giving Sam her own SG team) so Jack wasn't her direct supervisor and just playing it very carefully and properly so there was no situations that would cause a significant conflict of interest. But then, if they'd done that it would never have been SG-1.
Essentially TPTB interpreted the regs to suit their own agenda of not getting Sam and Jack together because doing so would neccesitate the end of SG-1 as a team and, well, the point of the whole series really! I don't begrudge TPTB that - they had to do that really - but I do think it's caused a general blanket self perpetuation of a misinterpretation of regulations to cover any situation between a senior and more junior officer regardless of chain of command. Which is why - coupled with an ambiguity of Jack's role borne of wanting to keep RDA coming back as a recurring guest - they could never really overtly show us a Sam and Jack together in season 9 and 10.

[Rachel500]

Sort of, but not exactly related: I think that in reality, most people have this problem with choices in their lives. They don't understand that they often can have most or all of the things they really want and don't have to choose one important thing over another important thing. If they think beyond their walls(?) and use their imagination/curiosity in order to find ways to make things work for them, they can often have all that they want (as Jacob told Sam in "Grace"). It doesn't always mean it's going to be easy, though.

(Sorry if I totally muddled that. I know what I meant.)

I know what you meant too (I think!). I think people often look at a problem from one position and don't fully challenge their assumptions.

And to kind of comment on the 'why didn't they talk?' discussion:

I've always maintained that the reasons why Jack and Sam as characters don't just get together are multi-layered.

1. The Regulations

This is an obstacle for them, and it's the easy excuse for them to hide behind, but it was never insurmountable.

They could have made other decisions about their careers that would have enabled them to serve and have a relationship (which presumably they do post S8). But they don't before Threads, why not?

2. Impact to their careers

To take the regulations out of the equation, they both seem to assume that one would need to leave the Air Force.

I do think Sam early on is not prepared to make that sacrifice (mostly because she's scared of being in love) on a conscious level because she enjoys her job, is proud of her accomplishments; her career equals emotional safety, somewhere she's comfortable. But I also don't think Sam wants Jack's career to be impacted; she's proud of him and his accomplishments. And she knows Jack is equally proud of her and therefore neither would never ask the other to make that kind of personal sacrifice to faciliate a relationship.

Again, what they shy away from is they don't necessarily have to give it all up to be together so why not?

3. The Team

If they had addressed the regulations openly, had opted to move forward with a personal relationship, the team would have been disbanded to ensure Sam was not in Jack's CoC.

It would have impacted the team dynamic; it would have changed the composition of SG1 and potentially their effectiveness.

Both Sam and Jack are very loyal to their friends and I do think they worry about if they were to discuss their feelings, if they were to move forward, what does that mean for SG1? And more importantly in some respects, for the mission?

4. The Mission

If SG1 isn't together, how would that impact their mission? As officers they have taken oaths to put country before self, and I do think both Sam and Jack are honourable at their core and believe in that. While I don't think they seriously equate their being military and on SG1 with the security of the universe, I do think that it's a factor that plays into their thinking.

If the mission is going to succeed they need to put their best team forward: that's both of them on SG1. Playing with the dynamic might mean giving themselves a tactical disadvantage.

And they shy away from that. Of course, there were ways both could have been together and still contributed equally to the mission. But they do not seem prepared to even risk it.

All of which (1-4) adds up to a great conscious 'excuse' to avoid the real reason why both don't move forward.

5. Fear

This is the real underlying reason why both of them shy away for so long from being in a relationship.

They are both scared of losing people they love. Sam's fear seems rooted in her mother's death; it's a risk to love someone fully. While Jack remains unattainable, she fools herself into thinking her heart is safe.

Jack's fear seems more about being responsible for causing her death/unhappiness which I think is rooted in the failure of his marriage to Sara and what happened to Charlie. He questions whether he's right for her; whether he can make her happy. He's prepared to step back and let her go if that's what makes her happy.

It's only when they come close to losing each other anyway that they begin to address the fear and this comes to fruition with Sam finally stepping up to have the discussion with Jack, and Jack finally stepping up to give her an answer rather than deflect her.

--

They think they're avoiding a discussion because of the regs, because it would impact their career choices, because it would impact the team and the mission...and to some extent that's true but really as VSS says, they're really avoiding the discussion because they're emotional dweebs.

I will say I think both had times when they were 'open' to discussions individually but those times are when they're not on the same page and those are the moments where they did have a 'missed' opportunity. But really, in the scheme of things what happened was they ended up at a point where both were emotionally ready to be together so perhaps it was for the best.

[VSS]

I think the plan is to do every episode regardless of ship content and, if there's something worth mentioning, we'll mention it. It there's nothing (obvious) worth mentioning, we''l put on our Extra Strength Ship Tinted glasses and find it!

Personally my approach to all this is to find as much evidence of ship wherever I can/ Even if I don't actually "see" a particular scene or moment as especially shippy in a romantic sense for me, I will likely comment on it so others have the point there for debate and disection if necessary.
I shall be watching / posting Demons later today.


VSS, that was a lovely review for Deadman Switch and I have really enjoyed reading all the comments and discussions on it. I was going to comment last night but I think everyone has just about beaten me to it.

I did particularly want to comment on that last post of yours about regulations and interpretation/conversations - or rather post a chain of thought that set off for me.
You do read a lot of fanfic that has them having had a discussion and now waiting for each other which - while it's a nice concept to explore in fanfic - I don't see as being in canon since I don't see them ever having done so. If they had, why on earth did Sam then move on in Grace? No, I don't think they ever made "promises" of a time when they might be together, nor do I think they ever really, truely acknowledged any real desire to each other to make a relationship between them work out - until Threads of course - although they may have made oblique references to their feelings at times without thrashing out the details. If they had really discussed matters, then I don't see what would have stopped them from finding a way to persue a relationship sooner. If the regulations are really that subjective it would have been a simple matter of transferring one of them off of SG-1 (maybe giving Sam her own SG team) so Jack wasn't her direct supervisor and just playing it very carefully and properly so there was no situations that would cause a significant conflict of interest. But then, if they'd done that it would never have been SG-1.
Essentially TPTB interpreted the regs to suit their own agenda of not getting Sam and Jack together because doing so would neccesitate the end of SG-1 as a team and, well, the point of the whole series really! I don't begrudge TPTB that - they had to do that really - but I do think it's caused a general blanket self perpetuation of a misinterpretation of regulations to cover any situation between a senior and more junior officer regardless of chain of command. Which is why - coupled with an ambiguity of Jack's role borne of wanting to keep RDA coming back as a recurring guest - they could never really overtly show us a Sam and Jack together in season 9 and 10.

I think they had lots of reasons why they did that, primarily a lack of desire to finish up the story at the time since they wanted to focus on the new characters. But Jack and Sam both moved out of the SGC and it would have been fairly straightforward to wrap it up without a lot of explanations. TPTB did insinuate that the two of them were together, but they didn't want to devote screen time to it. Since Jack was returning so irregularly it would have worked out just fine story-wise.

Consequently the "chain-of-command" meme seemed to take root as an explanation why they hadn't shown anything on screen. That's the misperception you mention, but it's only in fandom and sparked by the comments of the actors. Who knows what TPTB think- at least three of them believe Jack and Sam have been together for quite a while, probably since Threads. It's not that complicated, and I've always looked at the ambiguity of Jack's position as a way that TPTB could show them together any time they wanted to.

I also think the delay makes it a selling point for the movies. I doubt very much that TPTB missed the fact that their highest-rated episodes had major-league ship in them, either.

But all these practical considerations aside, I completely agree that any conversation they had would have caused them to figure out a solution, especially once they figured out that they weren't going to be able to move on. To me it is unbelievable if, after four years of angst, they didn't get together after Threads.

(Also, I'm glad you liked and Twilight liked my write-up. I don't do a synopsis because I figure people have seen the eps before. And I'm lazy.)

[Rachel500]

<snipped>

You do read a lot of fanfic that has them having had a discussion and now waiting for each other which - while it's a nice concept to explore in fanfic - I don't see as being in canon since I don't see them ever having done so. If they had, why on earth did Sam then move on in Grace? No, I don't think they ever made "promises" of a time when they might be together, nor do I think they ever really, truely acknowledged any real desire to each other to make a relationship between them work out - until Threads of course - although they may have made oblique references to their feelings at times without thrashing out the details. <snipped>

In my personal version of canon (which of course is the only one of consequence ), I do see them having some kind of oblique conversation between Nemesis and Small Victories (simply because the dynamic between them changes from one of tentative 'are you inviting me' to one of easy banter). I think it was at that point they acknowledged there was *something* between them and maybe even potentially *one day* but determined in a vague way that it was best at that moment for them to remain on SG1, remain serving together, for their careers, for the mission.

I think the 'Sir, none of this has to leave the room' and 'are we OK with that?' as the second oblique conversation that takes place between them on their feelings. Where even though they know the *something* is actually *love* they continue to cling to their initial decision.

And I think there probably was another oblique conversation post Entity where they agree again in very vague terms that they have to focus on their military relationship and set aside any thoughts of something else.

Which is why for me by Grace, Sam has tried and failed to move on, but wonders if Jack has succeeded and now only views her as a friend while Jack has tried and failed to move on but continues to believe it's best for Sam (in order to protect her, for her happiness) for her to continue to move on...