Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hedwig]

you gotta wonder cause in a fan fic i read regarding POV the writer wrote the asgard revived AU Jack O'Neill and those two Live Well Not Really a Happy Ending Cause the Goa'uld nearly destroyed the SGC (Sorry SGA) and That Earth but they got to be back together again. what do u guys think happened after POV in That AU World

It may not be the same story I read, but there's a fic out there where the Asgard created a clone of the AU Jack that died, and then he and AU Sam lived happily ever after.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

It may not be the same story I read, but there's a fic out there where the Asgard created a clone of the AU Jack that died, and then he and AU Sam lived happily ever after.

that could've been the story i read but i don't know i haven't Post POV stories in a while.

[VSS]

Hmmm. I never got the impression that he wants to talk to Sam about what's going on between them so much in that scene as he was offering to talk to Sam about how she was feeling about the situation and suddenly having a twin - just being there for his Sam in what was a weird situation when he'd already comforted said twin. (I just love that beat where she says 'have you got a few hours' and he just goes 'OK' much to her complete and total surprise.)

I didn't see it as her refusing to discuss it with him (since at this point there is nothing going on "between them" - he's asking if she wants to talk about her having a double and the revelation about her double and his now deceased double being together in another reality). She said something like "have you got a few hours", meaning to me that she was confused and unsettled about the whole thing and perhaps didn't feel like she could even begin to have any kind of intelligent discussion with him about it (if she did want to discuss it, she'd probably want to go off and think it all over before attempting to discuss it with anybody). If I remember correctly (and I might not be), her comment left it open for him to continue the discussion and when he didn't, she cheerfully said "goodnight, sir" and he didn't try to pursue it. He didn't know what to say about it either. I might be in the minority here, but I think neither of them really wanted to talk about it at that point, so it was an easy way out for both of them.

I agree there wasn't anything going on between them- I couldn't think of another way to put it at the time- it was a poor choice of words and I think distracted everyone from the point I was trying to make.

Jack knows Sam has no idea that AU Sam and Jack were married, and he has no idea that his nascent feelings about her might be reciprocated or even what he feels at all. In other words, he's confused, he thinks she's confused, and this is the only chance they had to open up some lines of communications before it's all out in the open in D & C and then they can't go back again. And she does refuse to talk to him- she says "Have you got a couple of hours?" and far from being scared off by that, he nods and says yes. To which she replies, "That was the answer." Meaning it was a rhetorical answer and she doesn't really want to talk about it. He did surprise her by saying yes.

So here's my key point: Whatever Jack was thinking or feeling at the time, Sam nipped it in the bud right there and gave him the impression he was just her CO and that's the way it was going to be. To me it's not unlike what he does at the end of Grace only to a much lesser degree, and without any intent.

I don't get the feeling that Jack wanted to talk with Sam just for her sake, although that's what he says. His wheels are still turning even as they part ways, with that bewildered little "Goodnight, Major.". This is the one chance he had not to box it all away, and then that chance was gone before he even knew he needed it.

I'm not sure what they'd have talked about, but I'm fairly sure that it would have changed how Upgrades/D&C played out. Jack wouldn't have been so surprised, and neither of them would have had such a knee-jerk reaction to what they discovered about each other in those two eps.

[Pol]

Hmmm. I've always read his "Okay" to her "Do you have a couple of hours" as him being willing, for the first time, to...listen. To talk about feelings, or a least to let her process.

I though it was so uncharacteristic of him to just say "Okay" and that Sam, had she been aware of the AU Jack/Sam relationship would have been stunned by his willingness to listen.

Also, I think she was saying "Do you have a couple of hours?" in that Colonel/Carter somewhat flippant way, and she expected him to respond in kind (again, not knowing about the AU J/S marriage).

Hmm. I am sick...I think I just said the same thing twice. I did write a fic about this interaction (it's in a Campfire), to sort through my feelings.

I think this scene is one of those "at any point in our realities, a single decision can split the prism..." kind of moments.

Do you have a couple of hours?
(beat) Okay.
It…that was the answer.

Our reality continues as we know it.

versus:
Do you have a couple of hours?
(beat) Okay.
Oh. Ah... (looks around). Can we...
Dinner? (checks watch). It's late enough, Carter.
(looking at him speculatively...perhaps in a new light). Sure. Dinner.

And a new reality is born.

Hmmm.

[VSS]

Hmmm. I've always read his "Okay" to her "Do you have a couple of hours" as him being willing, for the first time, to...listen. To talk about feelings, or a least to let her process.

I though it was so uncharacteristic of him to just say "Okay" and that Sam, had she been aware of the AU Jack/Sam relationship would have been stunned by his willingness to listen.

Also, I think she was saying "Do you have a couple of hours?" in that Colonel/Carter somewhat flippant way, and she expected him to respond in kind (again, not knowing about the AU J/S marriage).

Hmm. I am sick...I think I just said the same thing twice. I did write a fic about this interaction (it's in a Campfire), to sort through my feelings.

I think this scene is one of those "at any point in our realities, a single decision can split the prism..." kind of moments.

Do you have a couple of hours?
(beat) Okay.
It…that was the answer.

Our reality continues as we know it.

versus:
Do you have a couple of hours?
(beat) Okay.
Oh. Ah... (looks around). Can we...
Dinner? (checks watch). It's late enough, Carter.
(looking at him speculatively...perhaps in a new light). Sure. Dinner.

And a new reality is born.

Hmmm.

Yes- a fork in the road kind of thing.

She was being flippant, and didn't at all expect him to take her up on it. It was very uncharacteristic of him to do what he did, and it ended up being a lost opportunity, one they wouldn't get again for- oh- five years or so. Because once they figured out their forbidden feelings for each other, it became a conversation they couldn't have.

[Rachel500]

I agree there wasn't anything going on between them- I couldn't think of another way to put it at the time- it was a poor choice of words and I think distracted everyone from the point I was trying to make.

<snippety-snip>

So here's my key point: Whatever Jack was thinking or feeling at the time, Sam nipped it in the bud right there and gave him the impression he was just her CO and that's the way it was going to be. To me it's not unlike what he does at the end of Grace only to a much lesser degree, and without any intent.

<snip>

So, I think what you're saying is that although consciously Jack was offering to talk to Sam about the present situation (how she was feeling about the double situation), he was subconsciously jumping at an opportunity to talk to her because his head was filled to the brim with everything he had just learned about his double's relationship with AU Sam, and the possibility of them?

And when his Sam reacts with complete surprise because it's not the dance they usually do, he takes it as a 'we have a professional relationship' and it underlines to him that his belief that his Sam doesn't feel that way about him is correct...

Hmmm. I can go with that.

I think as Pol says, it really is a fork in the road moment for them and that kind of plays into what I think you're saying.

[Pol]

So, I think what you're saying is that although consciously Jack was offering to talk to Sam about the present situation (how she was feeling about the double situation), he was subconsciously jumping at an opportunity to talk to her because his head was filled to the brim with everything he had just learned about his double's relationship with AU Sam, and the possibility of them?

And when his Sam reacts with complete surprise because it's not the dance they usually do, he takes it as a 'we have a professional relationship' and it underlines to him that his belief that his Sam doesn't feel that way about him is correct...

Hmmm. I can go with that.

I think as Pol says, it really is a fork in the road moment for them and that kind of plays into what I think you're saying.

Yup. That. What she said.

Uh huh.

[hedwig]

I agree there wasn't anything going on between them- I couldn't think of another way to put it at the time- it was a poor choice of words and I think distracted everyone from the point I was trying to make.

Jack knows Sam has no idea that AU Sam and Jack were married, and he has no idea that his nascent feelings about her might be reciprocated or even what he feels at all. In other words, he's confused, he thinks she's confused, and this is the only chance they had to open up some lines of communications before it's all out in the open in D & C and then they can't go back again. And she does refuse to talk to him- she says "Have you got a couple of hours?" and far from being scared off by that, he nods and says yes. To which she replies, "That was the answer." Meaning it was a rhetorical answer and she doesn't really want to talk about it. He did surprise her by saying yes.

So here's my key point: Whatever Jack was thinking or feeling at the time, Sam nipped it in the bud right there and gave him the impression he was just her CO and that's the way it was going to be. To me it's not unlike what he does at the end of Grace only to a much lesser degree, and without any intent.

I don't get the feeling that Jack wanted to talk with Sam just for her sake, although that's what he says. His wheels are still turning even as they part ways, with that bewildered little "Goodnight, Major.". This is the one chance he had not to box it all away, and then that chance was gone before he even knew he needed it.

I'm not sure what they'd have talked about, but I'm fairly sure that it would have changed how Upgrades/D&C played out. Jack wouldn't have been so surprised, and neither of them would have had such a knee-jerk reaction to what they discovered about each other in those two eps.

I understand what you're saying, but I still don't agree that she was nipping anything in the bud. I feel she didn't have a clue as to what her feelings about the subject were and rather than sit and discuss them right then, she might have wanted to think about it before talking to anybody about it. She's always been one to think things through (IMO) pretty carefully before deciding on something, and I think in this instance she would have wanted to do that by herself before talking to Jack about it. Because she didn't say any of that, he might have felt as you suggest. And at that point in the series, he was "just her CO" (as well as friend), so perhaps for her there was really nothing for the two of them to discuss.

And, as you say, Sam knew nothing about the revelation by AU Sam about AU Sam&Jack's marriage, so at the time of Jack's question, for Sam there was really nothing for them to talk about (other than her having a duplicate in another reality). And while it's true this may have been Jack's "one chance" not to box stuff away, Sam may have felt his question was just an offhand question that many people will ask in order to be polite. I don't see her "that is the answer" reply to be a dismissal of him, so much as it was for her actually "the answer".

[Aveo_amacus]

*wants to read Pol's new AU fic*

I loved your discussion of POV, it's brought up some really good points and as several of you mention will have several lasting repercussions.

My only question is that what do you suppose AU Sam meant by "it's not the same having us here is it?" because it seemed too immediate for it to simply be 'oh there are new people in our reality' and to be honest it was so soon after Jack finding out she was in our reality I wouldn't be surprised if he's still processing it! She says it in a really sad way, I don't know if this is because she's missing her Jack or if it's something else where maybe neither of them are around.

Edit: Also, another question; what do you think would have happened if Sam had gone to see AU Sam instead of meeting Jack then?

[VSS]

I understand what you're saying, but I still don't agree that she was nipping anything in the bud. I feel she didn't have a clue as to what her feelings about the subject were and rather than sit and discuss them right then, she might have wanted to think about it before talking to anybody about it. She's always been one to think things through (IMO) pretty carefully before deciding on something, and I think in this instance she would have wanted to do that by herself before talking to Jack about it. Because she didn't say any of that, he might have felt as you suggest. And at that point in the series, he was "just her CO" (as well as friend), so perhaps for her there was really nothing for the two of them to discuss.

And, as you say, Sam knew nothing about the revelation by AU Sam about AU Sam&Jack's marriage, so at the time of Jack's question, for Sam there was really nothing for them to talk about (other than her having a duplicate in another reality). And while it's true this may have been Jack's "one chance" not to box stuff away, Sam may have felt his question was just an offhand question that many people will ask in order to be polite. I don't see her "that is the answer" reply to be a dismissal of him, so much as it was for her actually "the answer".

I'm not talking about Sam's feelings being nipped in the bud, but Jack's. I think everything you wrote about Sam is right on the money, but from his perspective she just wasn't interested in talking about any of this with him. I didn't say she dismissed him, only that she didn't want to talk about it- again, there was no intent to put him off. She's not at fault.

[EvenstarSRV]

Very interesting discussions on POV, and one I don't really have much to contribute to since it's entering foreign territory for me.

One thing I do remember when I first saw this episode was thinking that 'oh, this where the Sam and Jack romantic feelings started.' It seemed to me that until now they were both attracted to each other and cared for each others' feelings in terms of friendship, but this was the first time they were fully confronted with the possibility of romantic feelings as well.

[Nynaeve506]

<snip>
I think this scene is one of those "at any point in our realities, a single decision can split the prism..." kind of moments.

Do you have a couple of hours?
(beat) Okay.
It…that was the answer.

Our reality continues as we know it.

versus:
Do you have a couple of hours?
(beat) Okay.
Oh. Ah... (looks around). Can we...
Dinner? (checks watch). It's late enough, Carter.
(looking at him speculatively...perhaps in a new light). Sure. Dinner.

And a new reality is born.

Hmmm.

It's funny you should mention this because I kinda wondered what would happen if Sam had taken Jack up on that offer. I'm not sure (forgot who said it) this is her nipping in the bud so much as simply responding the way anyone would. I'm not sure Sam had been all that introspective on it. During PoV we seem focused mostly on Jack and AU Sam and less our Sam. I don't think she started thinking more about it until after she found out AU Jack and AU Sam were married (remember in TBFTGOG she's all scientific about it, Jack backs up and goes "Wait... engaged??" and she's "It's theoretically possible..." and (trying to remember) I don't recall there being any discomfort on her part.

The moment we see what could be our Sam really thinking about it is when she sees Jack kiss her counterpart. I think up to this point they've started having this closeness and attraction that both are in some sort of semi-denial or rather "we just won't look at it too closely" type deal. When Daniel went it was still easy enough to distance and now it's in their face. "LOOK that attraction you feel, here's what it would mean if there weren't rules in the way." I mean we feel attracted to people all the time but we generally push it to the side because of whatever (we're married, rules, etc) - it's not a bad thing, but what if you were confronted with a reality in which you were WITH that person - suddenly that attraction doesn't seem so innocent.

Which is why I thought Jack being willing to talk was so... wow. I wonder how different things would be if she'd stopped and said "Sure..." Would they have realized they wanted something more? Would she have requested a transfer or him request retirement? Who knows? Our reality goes the way it did. But I wonder...

[Cagranosalis]

Josi thanks for that amazingly detailed review and thank you to everyoen who has contributed so many wonderful observations and insights.


Picking out a few points (sorry I cut and paste rather than attempt mammoth MQ and snipping so I apologise if I've forgotten who said what! )

I have to fangurl AT's portrayal of the two Sams, and in particular the way they relate to Jack. AU Sam is so open in the way she looks at him - especially (and calling forward again) the way she seems to be drinking him in with her eyes both when she first sees him and when she comes into the briefing room and sits down next to him, very much like our Sam does when she meets AU Jack in Continuum. The way she smiles openly at Jack after his crack about Roswell grey aliens too is a lovely extension of the way our Sam reacts to Jack in similar situations - only our Sam tends to duck her head to hide the smile because she knows she shouldn't really find him as amusing as she does.

Yes. One of the greatest thing about this episode for me it the way AT plays our Sam and AU Sam so differently. I don't even see AU Sam as anything like our Sam at all; everything that's happened to her in her life has made her a different person. Her pain and grief comes through so obviously. Just seeing those two performances is beautiful.

One of my favorite scenes, believe it or not, is the conference room scene where Kawalsky let's out the marriage bit. Jack's subdued tone and Sam's utter shock are played so well by RDA and AT. It's just too perfect

I love that scene too. The fact he never mentioned it is hugely significant. If his Sam meant nothing at all to him, you would think he'd have said, "oh by the way, she was married to her version of me" I think he would have said that eventually but I think, at that point, he was still processing the fact they were married and how that leaves his realtionship with his Sam.

And I agree with Rachel that I definitely think this is the first real point it consciously occured to Jack, at least, that the attraction and affection he feels for our Sam might actually be capable of evolving into something deeper. It troubles him deeply on a number of occasions throughout the episode. Even at the end when he stays to kiss AU Sam goodbye; you can see he has to really think about it before he decides to give her that and I don't think he's worried about how she will feel (because he knows she knows she's kissing "him" goodbye) but he's worrying about how it might leave him feeling. That little rueful "yeah" from him on the end that VSS pointed out - I think he liked kissing her and because of that, for the first time, he might feel a little regret that his Sam is firmly out of bounds. What can never be. However, being Jack and being a pragmatist his response to tricky emotional situations is to bury the feelings away and forget about them.


And I love Rachels box analogy here.

That is an interesting point, and I think is supposed to make us think that it's just the military keeping them apart. But I think that it's them too, with the not talking and the emotional insecurities, and so it doesn't really ring true. But then since the purpose of the AUs, narratively, is to show us what could be, they kind of have to gloss over it. And I'm sure there's plenty AUs out there where Sam and Jack take every bit as long as ours do, just they're not the ones in need of help. Because I also very much like your theory, VSS, that there's a change happens at the end of S8 in the AUs - before then, Sam and Jack get together = the world ends/bad things happen. After then, Sam and Jack don't get together = the world ends/bad things happen. Proving that it's our Sam and Jack that got it right all along

Well, I agree and don't. I tend to veer more towards the idea that it is the regs that really keep them apart. Even Kerry points out "Is the air force the only thing keeping you two apart?" Where I think the line blurs is that the regs very much dictate how Sam behaves in our reality much more than Jack, since we have never really seen a non militarys AU Jack. That's not to say our Jack does not respect the regs nor would he knowingly break them but, by that what I mean - and this is pure conjecture - that both AUs we have seen to this point, Sam is the one who is not military. Military Sam we know, would never overtly infer to Jack that she is interested in a relationship with him because he's her CO and it's not allowed. I want to theorise that a military Sam wouldn't even infer that to a non-military Jack simply becasue it's not really the person she is. So if you imagine that scenario/AU, would they have got together? However, AU non-military Sams wouldn't have had the rigid code of conduct intstilled through her training so might be more open and showy with feelings. In POV that certainly seems to be the case. Maybe in AU worlds it was non-military Sams who tipped Jacks the wink that clued him in that she would be receptive to his advances. Would AU Jacks have made overtures to non military Sams without her first showing an interest? Maybe, maybe not. Moebuis seems to imply he would, which seems to back up the argument that it really is just the regs that's the issue, but then in Moebius the AU Jack isn't actually in the military anymore so he's a different man.

All of which leads me back to the conclusion that, while I agree there were other issues and insecurities that they both probably had to work out; I think they would be no more or less a barrier than any normal relationship and it's the first steps that they never took / could not take in our reality that really held them back. I think, over time, they did use those regs as a bit of an excuse - as a barrier as such - and it became habit. They blinkered themseleves to ways around the regs which were there all along.

So here's my key point: Whatever Jack was thinking or feeling at the time, Sam nipped it in the bud right there and gave him the impression he was just her CO and that's the way it was going to be. To me it's not unlike what he does at the end of Grace only to a much lesser degree, and without any intent.

I don't get the feeling that Jack wanted to talk with Sam just for her sake, although that's what he says. His wheels are still turning even as they part ways, with that bewildered little "Goodnight, Major.". This is the one chance he had not to box it all away, and then that chance was gone before he even knew he needed it.

I'm not sure what they'd have talked about, but I'm fairly sure that it would have changed how Upgrades/D&C played out. Jack wouldn't have been so surprised, and neither of them would have had such a knee-jerk reaction to what they discovered about each other in those two eps.

Oh good observation and you might make me go back and change my mind about things...
Well, ok I don't think Sam had any intent there either. I don't think she meant to shut Jack out or give him any impression. I just think she thought they were having a bit of the usual banter and he wasn't asking her seriously so it surprised her when he seemed willing to discuss it. Jack may have inferred from her actions that she saw him as just a CO, much like Sam inferred Jack no longer cared for her in that way in Grace but none of that was intentional.


And I like Pol's version of the new reality. I would love to read a fic where that happened.

My only question is that what do you suppose AU Sam meant by "it's not the same having us here is it?" because it seemed too immediate for it to simply be 'oh there are new people in our reality' and to be honest it was so soon after Jack finding out she was in our reality I wouldn't be surprised if he's still processing it! She says it in a really sad way, I don't know if this is because she's missing her Jack or if it's something else where maybe neither of them are around.

Edit: Also, another question; what do you think would have happened if Sam had gone to see AU Sam instead of meeting Jack then?

On the first question, I think AU Sam meant that her and Kawlasky really didn't belong and she knew it even then. I think seeing Jack she realised that the Jack in front of her wasn't her Jack and never would be regardless of what his current relationship (or not) with our Sam or anyone else was. I think they thought escaping to a new world would be a new start but the reailt did set in early that new starts cannot take away old pain.

On the second question. Honestly I don't know. I don't think AU Sam would have been quite so open and emotional to our Sam - she may even have seen her as a little bit of a rival - but I do think the fact she and her Jack were married would have come out (there was a picture there after all). Whether Sam would have come out and been honest to Jack about it before he found out by accident in a breifing? Hmm, good question.

[slurredspeech]

Just popping in to ask a question, but I gotta say I'm enjoying reading all of your takes on the episode and its implications immensely! So much love for the discussion. <3

My only question is that what do you suppose AU Sam meant by "it's not the same having us here is it?" because it seemed too immediate for it to simply be 'oh there are new people in our reality' and to be honest it was so soon after Jack finding out she was in our reality I wouldn't be surprised if he's still processing it! She says it in a really sad way, I don't know if this is because she's missing her Jack or if it's something else where maybe neither of them are around.

On the first question, I think AU Sam meant that her and Kawlasky really didn't belong and she knew it even then. I think seeing Jack she realised that the Jack in front of her wasn't her Jack and never would be regardless of what his current relationship (or not) with our Sam or anyone else was. I think they thought escaping to a new world would be a new start but the reailt did set in early that new starts cannot take away old pain.

I may be wrong, but I thought she asked 'It's not the same *with* us here, is it?' instead of 'having us'. Which is why I always interpreted that as AU!Sam referring to her and Jack. As in 'You don't call me Sam here, or kiss me goodnight in this reality, do you?' sort of question. The way that line was delivered; like you guys already said -- so sad and so... random, really, as if she was piecing something together in her head for those last couple of minutes, based mostly on Jack's demanour, his attituted towards her, and came up with a rather unfavorable and to her, completely unfamiliar result.

Of course, there's a chance I'm completely wrong. It's just what I always thought she meant by that from the first time I watched the episode. To be honest, I never considered any other explanation for that sentence. Good thing VSS nudged me in the direction of this thread. *dances*

[VSS]

Oh good observation and you might make me go back and change my mind about things...
Well, ok I don't think Sam had any intent there either. I don't think she meant to shut Jack out or give him any impression. I just think she thought they were having a bit of the usual banter and he wasn't asking her seriously so it surprised her when he seemed willing to discuss it. Jack may have inferred from her actions that she saw him as just a CO, much like Sam inferred Jack no longer cared for her in that way in Grace but none of that was intentional.

. Right- she didn't intend to do anything, she had no idea what he was thinking. Heck, he didn't even know what he was thinking! It was just a big contrast for him between AU Sam and our Sam, and if he did feel any romantic stirrings for her (which I think he did) that encounter in the hall would put a damper on things.

I may be wrong, but I thought she asked 'It's not the same *with* us here, is it?' instead of 'having us'. Which is why I always interpreted that as AU!Sam referring to her and Jack. As in 'You don't call me Sam here, or kiss me goodnight in this reality, do you?' sort of question. The way that line was delivered; like you guys already said -- so sad and so... random, really, as if she was piecing something together in her head for those last couple of minutes, based mostly on Jack's demanour, his attituted towards her, and came up with a rather unfavorable and to her, completely unfamiliar result.

Of course, there's a chance I'm completely wrong. It's just what I always thought she meant by that from the first time I watched the episode. To be honest, I never considered any other explanation for that sentence. Good thing VSS nudged me in the direction of this thread. *dances*

I'm pretty sure that's what was meant, too. But it always seemed like quite a personal thing to say in front of everyone else, which wouldn't be like our Sam but might be quite like the AU Sam (didn't she also kiss Hammond and/or Teal'c on the cheek?). So Aveo might be on to something there.

And... glad you decided to stop by. I've personally learned a lot hanging around this thread!