Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hedwig]

This is pretty much what I think, too. Though it could be less personal- I could see him including anyone in the entire Stargate program in this way since he's directing his comments at an enemy. At some level, I think he'll always feel responsible for SG-1 and everyone at the SGC, even if he's not.

To be honest, I've never really liked that bit, because it does sound like he's still in charge of SG-1, or at that there's a rigid command structure with him at the top.

I agree. It could have been Walter or Siler (maybe even Rodney) or anybody else, and he would have called them "my people".

[dipsofjazz]

The quote about the audience being 'thoughtful intelligent people who respond well to quality entertainment' (sorry, I can't find the original quote, but I'll keep looking) was said by RDA in an early behind-the-scenes thingy.

I think it was said by Mitchell in '200' as an in-joke.

[Aveo_amacus]

Thanks Bev!

[Rachel500]

I know this is about 8 seasons early but I was watching an advert for Continuum earlier and I've only just realised that Jack says "what have you done with my people", now that's Vala and Teal'c. To me this is pretty significant that it's these two and Jack saying it; Vala's included 100%, Jack includes her as one of his people. I know this could just be 'oh she's a member of SGC' but it doesn't feel that way, to me it seems that Jack knows Vala. Would you say this is through team nights etc where Jack was present and through his link with Sam our am I just crazy??

I think the idea they were going with in The Shroud in particular by not having his being there being a big deal, is that he's around quite often, he's there at the SGC when he's not in Washington, but we just don't usually *see* him in the stories they show. So, I think by Continuum Jack would consider Vala as one of the gang on a personal level as Sam and Vala were certainly being shown to be friends too.

However, on a professional level I also do think Jack would consider that SG1, or anyone with him on a mission is 'his people' given his personal sense of responsibility in leading others and the innate command responsibility of his rank. Jack was wearing a SG1 badge in Continuum and he was the highest ranked officer there so technically he was in command.

[VSS]

I think the idea they were going with in The Shroud in particular by not having his being there being a big deal, is that he's around quite often, he's there at the SGC when he's not in Washington, but we just don't usually *see* him in the stories they show. So, I think by Continuum Jack would consider Vala as one of the gang on a personal level as Sam and Vala were certainly being shown to be friends too.

However, on a professional level I also do think Jack would consider that SG1, or anyone with him on a mission is 'his people' given his personal sense of responsibility in leading others and the innate command responsibility of his rank. Jack was wearing a SG1 badge in Continuum and he was the highest ranked officer there so technically he was in command.

It was said (I think in the commentary) that that was exactly the effect they were looking for in the Shroud, that he was around all the time.

As hedwig said, that effect seemed to carry through to Continuum with the whole lunch discussion, but I had forgotten he had an SG-1 patch on- I have such a hard time seeing him as a member of SG-1 any more- he doesn't even seem like the same person to me. That kind of gives me little warm fuzzies thinking he had the old SG-1 patch on again.

So from a military and personal perspective I could see him using those words. It's strange, though, that it wasn't Cam who confronted Ba'al. Although he didn't have quite the same history with him as Jack had, those were "his people", too. Presuming SG-1 was still intact at the time he'd been with them for three years and Jack hadn't been leading them for four. It seems to me that not only was Jack technically in charge, it was de facto as well.

I wonder if they talk about that before they set out, is it just a given, or impromptu as the need arises? Anything can (and did) happen off-world, so I'd think they'd need to know in advance.

[Rachel500]

It was said (I think in the commentary) that that was exactly the effect they were looking for in the Shroud, that he was around all the time.

As hedwig said, that effect seemed to carry through to Continuum with the whole lunch discussion, but I had forgotten he had an SG-1 patch on- I have such a hard time seeing him as a member of SG-1 any more- he doesn't even seem like the same person to me. That kind of gives me little warm fuzzies thinking he had the old SG-1 patch on again.

So from a military and personal perspective I could see him using those words. It's strange, though, that it wasn't Cam who confronted Ba'al. Although he didn't have quite the same history with him as Jack had, those were "his people", too. Presuming SG-1 was still intact at the time he'd been with them for three years and Jack hadn't been leading them for four. It seems to me that not only was Jack technically in charge, it was de facto as well.

I wonder if they talk about that before they set out, is it just a given, or impromptu as the need arises? Anything can (and did) happen off-world, so I'd think they'd need to know in advance.

For all his tendency to get a little gung-ho now and again, Cam's characterisation for me always leaned on him being a fairly by the book officer in terms of protocol especially with those senior and in command.

Which is why Uninvited has all that awkwardness between him and Landry; why he's not really comfortable around Jack in The Shroud and why he struggles with finding how he leads his team which is so non-military in nature given Sam holds the same rank as him and certainly is more experienced than him.

I would expect Cam deferring to Jack if Jack was in command on a mission would be innate and automatic. I don't think it would be even spoken about, it would just *be*; Jack's the senior officer ergo he holds the mission command unless specified otherwise at the mission briefing.

[leiasky]

Remember that thing about the audience being sensitive and intelligent (who said that? Some PTB) It's true. And this ep offends me for that reason. But, as I said, I am picky.

RDA said it

And I have to agree with you, here. I can't stand the episode. If I'm doing a re-watch, I tent to skip it (along with the worst episode ever Nightwalkers)

[Buc252]

RDA said it

And I have to agree with you, here. I can't stand the episode. If I'm doing a re-watch, I tent to skip it (along with the worst episode ever Nightwalkers)

I don't really care for the storyline in Nightwalkers either (it feels llike an XF episode re-used for sG1), but I can't resist watching it because Jonas looks so hot in it. On the other hand, I miss Jack terribly.

As for One False Step, the only thing I like in it is that there is JackOwies. <g>

[sg-1fanintn]

RDA said it

And I have to agree with you, here. I can't stand the episode. If I'm doing a re-watch, I tent to skip it (along with the worst episode ever Nightwalkers)

Although I didn't like Nightwalkers that much, I did like the change of scenery and the fact that the team got to wear civvies for it.

I think the worst ep of the first 8 seasons is Sight Unseen. It was just plain dumb.

[Aveo_amacus]

see I quite like Nightwalkers.... Avenger 2.0 on the other hand...

[hedwig]

see I quite like Nightwalkers.... Avenger 2.0 on the other hand...

I actually enjoyed both of them. I liked seeing Sam, Teal'c and Jonas working together to figure out the mystery, and I liked the humor (even if a bit over the top) of Avenger 2.0.

And I agree with sg-1fanintn's comment about "Sight Unseen", even though there were little bits I liked (like the scene at the home of Vernon's mother when Sam and Jonas pretended to be a couple for the benefit of Vernon's Mom). I even thought the acting (or maybe the directing or how the ep was edited) was rather uneven. There were a few times when it seemed as though one actor would finish his/her line, and then there would be too long a pause before the next person would speak, even though the pause was only a second or two longer than it really should have been.

[VSS]

Show and Tell

Banner by Padme

Favorite Quote and Favorite Scene:
(This was silently mouthed with hand signals)
Jack: On three.
Daniel: There could be Retu in there. (Makes little bug motions with his fingers, which I find hilarious)
Jack: I know.
Then they run in in slow-motion and the firefight ensues.

Nevermind all the scientific inconsistencies with being in and out of phase, this is a nice little ep that I enjoyed very much this time around whereas previously I’d been put off by Charlie- mostly because I don’t like bad things to happen to little kids.

But this was a great Jack ep with an interesting scientific side to it. I also enjoyed the way it tied into Spirits, with Jack being chosen as the leader Mother trusted- notice how she didn’t trust Hammond- remember what happened with Tonane. And Jack makes a couple of remarks referring back to Bloodlines and Singularity in terms of little children being used as Trojan horses by the Goa’uld. However, I don’t see bandage on Sam’s hand- was this ep aired out of sequence with 1969 or do I have it out of sequence myself? Or did I miss the bandage?

That whole little scene with the boy wanting to call himself Charlie really tugged at the heartstrings. For one thing, it occurred to me that Jack must still have the little cigar box of mementos for Mother to have figured out that he had a son- unless he talked about it with someone, which I don’t think he ever really did. A year ago, would he have allowed the little boy to call himself ‘Charlie’? And it’s so sad when Charlie eventually asks to live with Jack and he refuses. I get the feeling that’s less about Jack being gone so much as it is about his insecurities regarding his ability to be a good father. Or maybe there’s still so much going on behind the scenes with him that he feels he’s not up to the task? Or because he knows Charlie is going to die? I don’t know but I appreciated the close-up shots of Jack.

Sam still has the ability to detect naquada and symbiotes, (and looked incredibly cute when she bent over to talk to Charlie, too) but is apparently unaffected by the emissions that make anyone with a symbiote terribly ill.

Spoiler:

It’s no wonder the goa’uld wanted to kill of the Retu, given their low threshold for any inconveniences, having a race around that literally makes them sick would just be one more reason to eliminate them. On the other hand, the rebel Retu don’t exactly subscribe to the live-and-let-live theory of species tolerance, either. Fortunately, they’re not the majority of the Retu. However, these shades of grey make the series seem more realistic (if you can use that term when discussing alien creatures!) and more interesting.

Is this the first time we see Jacob and Sam fighting side-by-side? I loved seeing her in action- she did a nice job with the grenade and plugging the Retu! But, this must be one of those instances we were talking about in another thread where we see the regs applied in an inconsistent manner (i.e. they only apply to Jack and Sam). Does anyone remember the Sullivan brothers ? I think they’re not supposed to assign family members to the same unit in case they lose them all at once, not to mention all the other problems of having two people with close personal ties in a combat unit together. Having Jacob taking fire with his “little girl” probably isn’t a good choice- Hammond and Jack should both have known that. But it happens all the time in Stargate, and no one ever mentions it, not even long enough to say why it isn’t a problem. Maybe because it’s so infrequent? At any rate, they never portray it as anything but a benefit to the SGC, instead of a liability; but personally I think a father/daughter relationship would affect the effectiveness of a combat unit almost as much as a couple of people in a romantic relationship.

Do we ever see the Retu again? After what Jack said to Charlie, I’m severely disappointed that we don’t ever see him in contact with him again. That would have been a really sweet and appropriate bit of continuity, although I know they almost never show or write lines for anything that isn't relevant to the story at hand- a source of frustration for us shippers, that's for sure!

Implications for Sam and Jack: None, really. Except that insofar as their own separate personal problems go, they’re in a lot better place than they were in the beginning of their stint on SG-1.

[Buc252]

Show and Tell

Banner by Padme

Favorite Quote and Favorite Scene:
(This was silently mouthed with hand signals)
Jack: On three.
Daniel: There could be Retu in there. (Makes little bug motions with his fingers, which I find hilarious)
Jack: I know.
Then they run in in slow-motion and the firefight ensues.

<snip>.

LOL! That's funny. I always thought Daniel was mouthing "there are people in there." And the little finger motions were like people walking. Either way, it's funny, but it sorta gives it a new perspective with "Retu".

[Petra]

Seeing as people list the worst episodes ever in their opinion I must say mine are Affinity and Prometheus Unbound. Nothing else comes even close.
Then again I'm one of those people who liked Nightwalkers, Sight Unseen, One False Step and Emancipation.

[B]
However, I don’t see bandage on Sam’s hand- was this ep aired out of sequence with 1969 or do I have it out of sequence myself? Or did I miss the bandage?

You didn't miss it and the ep isn't out of order. Personally I never thought Sam's cut form OFS and 1969 was the same one. *shrugs*

That whole little scene with the boy wanting to call himself Charlie really tugged at the heartstrings. For one thing, it occurred to me that Jack must still have the little cigar box of mementos for Mother to have figured out that he had a son- unless he talked about it with someone, which I don’t think he ever really did. A year ago, would he have allowed the little boy to call himself ‘Charlie’? And it’s so sad when Charlie eventually asks to live with Jack and he refuses. I get the feeling that’s less about Jack being gone so much as it is about his insecurities regarding his ability to be a good father. Or maybe there’s still so much going on behind the scenes with him that he feels he’s not up to the task? Or because he knows Charlie is going to die? I don’t know but I appreciated the close-up shots of Jack.

"Show and Tell" despite many obvious plotholes is one of my favourite episodes. I love Jack/Charlie stuff. I think that Jack's reusal was due to his insecurities, as you said. He isn't ready to be a father again and he knows it. And I love him for being so responsible and mature.
I also think it shows that he not only blames himself for his son's death but also doubts whether he was a good father in the first place and it's something I find terribly sad and poignant.

Do we ever see the Retu again? After what Jack said to Charlie, I’m severely disappointed that we don’t ever see him in contact with him again. That would have been a really sweet and appropriate bit of continuity, although I know they almost never show or write lines for anything that isn't relevant to the story at hand- a source of frustration for us shippers, that's for sure!

Nope, in fact we don't even hear about them again! IMO it's a crying shame, because I think they were incredibly interesting and would have made both great allies and great foes. I'd love to see them again in seasons 9/10 (of course earlier too) just to see how they were dealing with the downfall of the Goa'ulds. It would have been much better than the silly Lucien Alliance stuff..

[KatG]

I liked Show and Tell. I thought it was a really nice Jack-centered ep. Here again we see that Jack has a natural affinity with children (he must have been a really good father). It also shows how far Jack has come since the beginning of the show. He was actually able to talk about Charlie, even though you could see it was painful for him.

I thought the Retu were awesome villains. I just wish that they would have brought them back sometime, seeing as they were such a threat and Jacob told them to watch out for them.

I agree, no real Sam and Jack implications here.