Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[silly sally]

I agree that it would have been fascinating to have explored it more. I think they did try to cover it in Jolinar's Memories/TDYK and again in Summit/Last Stand with Lantash.

I always equate it as being very similar to Narim's emotional recorder device. A sense of feeling feelings which aren't your own but in feeling them you can't distinguish that properly. I think time and knowing the difference through using the memory device in JM/TDYK helped Sam to distinguish between Jolinar's and her own.

I definitely think Pete was meant to be an obstacle but I tend to think Martouf was simply meant to be a distinct storyline originally - and then having created it, and deciding to go in another direction to fully explore Sam/Jack he became an obstacle. Laira, on the other hand, was definitely meant to be an obstacle!

I've always felt the ship had a pattern:

S1: Hints
S2: Hints
S3: Big hints!
S4: Ship!
S5: Hints
S6: Hints
S7: Big hints!
S8: Ship!
S9: Hints
S10/AoT: Hints
Continuum: Big hints!
So, M3: Ship????

IMHO AOT didn't have any hints what so ever, Continuum had just small hints...
In effect the biggest shippy hints almost bordering confirmation we've got in Atlantis season 4...

[KatG]

I totally agree with the bolded parts Rachel! I'm not sure about who's decision it was although what you say sounds familiar.. I might check the commentary for the episode and see who did it...

You have commentary for S2? Region 1 doesn't start until S4 I believe.

As for Spirits:

This was an okay episode.

I found Tonane to be an interesting character, very naive - cautious, but opened to friendship. I assume he's very much like many Native Americans might have been upon first meeting Europeans, before they found out how deceitful they could be.

As for Sam sounding like she was spouting Jack's lines, I think she pretty much was. Spirits was supposed to be Jack heavy, but because RDA's baby was born, it was "re-written" for AT as lead, so RDA could take time off. I doubt they actually did much rewriting, just put "Sam Carter" where it originally said "Jack O'Neill.

[VSS]

I found Tonane to be an interesting character, very naive - cautious, but opened to friendship. I assume he's very much like many Native Americans might have been upon first meeting Europeans, before they found out how deceitful they could be.

But I think this is why fans objected to the moralizing in this ep- we got the Disney version here. Like Pocahontas. If you've ever read the historical accounts of Jamestown it's really obvious that her dad, Powhatan, was extremely clever (and tricky). He didn't get to be the chief of all those tribes for nothing! But this isn't supposed to be a documentary, it's Stargate, so I don't really care about that as much as some others do.

What bothers me is his mannerisms and his garrulousness. Not so much what his message is, but rather how he gets it across. It was my job for a long time to interact on a regular basis with people from Native American communities, and this guy is the polar opposite of of them. He's weird.

As for Sam sounding like she was spouting Jack's lines, I think she pretty much was. Spirits was supposed to be Jack heavy, but because RDA's baby was born, it was "re-written" for AT as lead, so RDA could take time off. I doubt they actually did much rewriting, just put "Sam Carter" where it originally said "Jack O'Neill.

Now that's just plain lazy. Or did they not care about Sam as a character? Either way, I would expect better. It's not that hard to do.

[majorsal]

I wasn't keen on Martouf because I always felt the whole thing was too icky. That his feelings had nothing to do with Sam and everything to do with Jolinar. But I agree that S2 was probably the set-up of a storyline similar to the one relayed by Martouf to Sam in RE. On that subject, I thought the almost kiss was not actually scripted but was a directional decision? JM meant for Martouf's story of his and Sam's failed relationship to be bring resolution to that particular ship - full stop. The almost kiss was something PDL popped in apparently not understanding that JM had written the whole thing as a nod to Sam/Jack? But I could be wrong...I usually am

if it 'was' pdl's idea (and not scripted), it wouldn't surprise me at all. that is all i will say.

[majorsal]

Now that's just plain lazy. Or did they not care about Sam as a character? Either way, I would expect better. It's not that hard to do.

sam was doing pretty good in the ep, until they wrote jack back in, and then *sam's* contribution with tonane was effectively ignored so *jack* could take over as leader. really ticked me off.

((()))

[Petra]

I haven't caught up yet on everything I missed, but I wanted to address a few points here..

It always bemused me that this was Jack who talked the aliens down when Daniel is standing right there. It would have been more in character for him to have turned to Daniel more than he did. I put this down to 'must make the lead the hero' mentality that also had Mitchell talking the commander into letting them go in Bad Guys instead of Daniel.

I'm probably the only one, but I do think it's in character for Jack. He can be diplomatic if he wants to; just think of season 6 when he was always teamed up with Sam in all the diplomatic matters and he proved himself to be a smart and successful negotiator. I see this scene in Spirits as an intro to his diplomatic skills. The only problem is, in season 6 there was no Daniel so he had to stop his dumb act while here Daniel stands right next to him the whole time..so maybe Jack chooses to talk it out himself because the whole base in on the line and, knowing how suspicious and distrustful he can be, he prefers not to risk Daniel not being Daniel after all..

I think Tonane for all of his unauthenticity is a very engaging character; he's very likeable, but naive and childlike in the way he trusts and his expressions. I think he was portrayed that way partially to illustrate why the aliens 'protect' him and the tribe as though they are young children and partially to draw the sympathy of the audience to Tonane and the aliens given the decision to deceive him.

That's my take on it as well. Thank you.

I was always sorry more wasn't focused on Hammond's own struggle to reconcile what they were doing.

I also think it was OoC for Hammond. It felt like we got a Hammond from CotG for a moment here, instaed of "our" General, so I also wish there was some scene to explain his behaviour.

From a production perspective, I read somewhere along time ago that S2 was meant to set-up a Sam-Martouf relationship to effectively move away from the Jack-Sam chemistry that had been shown in S1. Only then TPTB saw the S2 finale with Jack glancing at Sam's naked back and as they felt that had more chemistry than Sam/Martouf, decided to go the route of setting up an actual love story between Sam and Jack.

I didn't know that, thanks for sharing While personally I don't like Martouf - I could never buy him as a good guy, I don't know why - I'd prefer him as Sam's love interest than Pete..I'd prefer anyone over Pete to be honest...

I think Jack and Sam were always meant to have chemistry; AT was very obviously told to stand by RDA in her audition to see how the two of them looked together and a lot of S1 showcases that the two are attracted to each other but its equally made clear that there are regs and they can't be together unless in an alternate reality or under an alien influence.

Well, to be fair MS and CJ also had to stand next to RDA to see how they looked together and I very much doubt they planned to ship them...

From a character perspective (rather than TPTB decision making!) I can see in S2 both characters focusing on their work relationship. I do think Jack had realised that he had come to care about Sam more than he should (and had done since ITLOD) but resolutely ignores his feelings (seeing them as inappropriate and deeming them to be unreciprocated) in favour of being there as her CO and a team-mate to help her through the whole Jolinar thing, and I think Sam is so focused on getting over Jolinar and proving herself again to him and others, that's she's completely unknowing to falling more and more for Jack. Yet everything kind of builds and comes together in Out of Mind/Into the Fire where both their feelings surface momentarily.

This is where I disagree with you lot. I don't think that either Sam or Jack felt anything more than friendship and simple physical attraction (albeit well hidden by this point) to each other in season 2. They are friends and this is enough for now. I think they started to develop deeper feelings for each other sometime in season 3 but I still think Jack's feelings for Laira were honest (yeah, I'm probably the only shipper who thinks that..then again, I never understood all the Laira hate *shrugs* but that's a topic for later).

IIRC RDA himself said that POV was the first episode that really forced Jack to look at Sam as a *woman*/potential partner, not as a friend/collegue and think about a possible relationship and this is how I see it too. Up till POV all the S/J stuff is just a friendship to me and I don't see ship/any hidden feelings in season 2. Sorry.

I'll be back once I have some time to read the rest of what you guys wrote and maybe *gasp* finally rewatch some episodes?

[Aveo_amacus]

You have commentary for S2? Region 1 doesn't start until S4 I believe.

I'd meant for RE, JM implies that it was a scripted scene to address the fact that there was a relationship between these characters way back when. - I think in this sense relationship meaning the characters interacted - or Martouf was interested in a romantic relationship - rather than an actual romantic relationship between the characters in our universe. He makes no comment about PdL. The comment he does make about PdL was that at the beginning there was an added scene between Mitchell and AT!Daniel who hints at a relationship between Mitchell/Lam, and PdL thought it was Mitchell/Carter but that was all cut.

[Zoser]

Spirits
I wasn't a big fan of how these aliens looked, either. I like my eye candy, what can I say. The goa'uld may be evil, but at least most of them are very attractive.

The least attractive aliens and possibly the worst clad - though pretty cute when they were seen as animals.

Implications for Sam and Jack: It’s nice to see how supportive Jack is of Sam and her first command. He really seems quite sure of her abilities, and if he’s worried he doesn’t show it much. The contrast between this and Exodus and even more so, Zero Hour, is pretty striking. And, IIRC “over my dead body” came up at the beginning of Gemini as well.

I think his attraction for her had not kick into high gear yet and the pain meds had!

[Rachel500]

I'm probably the only one, but I do think it's in character for Jack. He can be diplomatic if he wants to; just think of season 6 when he was always teamed up with Sam in all the diplomatic matters and he proved himself to be a smart and successful negotiator. I see this scene in Spirits as an intro to his diplomatic skills. The only problem is, in season 6 there was no Daniel so he had to stop his dumb act while here Daniel stands right next to him the whole time..so maybe Jack chooses to talk it out himself because the whole base in on the line and, knowing how suspicious and distrustful he can be, he prefers not to risk Daniel not being Daniel after all..

Jack *can* be diplomatic and he can certainly talk a good game when he has to think on his feet because the chips are down and he's trying to save everyones' lives, but S1-Spirits given his adherence to military practicality and the mindset of a warrior (think The Other Side, Scorched Ground), it was usually Daniel who stood up and made the moral arguments and took the 'white hat' position in discussion; Jack's was usually more grey in colour.

I do see Spirits as out of character for Jack at that point in his development. Whereas later once he's struggled with the role of diplomat in early S3, had to really assume the role in S6 when Daniel was gone - then I would find this much more in character for Jack.

In Spirits, for me, it's a jarring characterisation.

<snippage>



Well, to be fair MS and CJ also had to stand next to RDA to see how they looked together and I very much doubt they planned to ship them...

I've read AT's version of the audition quite a few times now in different interviews and articles and my impression of it is that there was definitely a check for sparkage/attraction. And given it wasn't unusual for TV shows back when they were starting off to have will-they/won't-they type stuff between the lead male and lead female, I'm sure they did check it - perhaps not with the whole love story that developed in mind but certainly with an intent to script and hint at such as in BD, Emancipation, and TBFTGOG in S1.

This is where I disagree with you lot. I don't think that either Sam or Jack felt anything more than friendship and simple physical attraction (albeit well hidden by this point) to each other in season 2. They are friends and this is enough for now. I think they started to develop deeper feelings for each other sometime in season 3 but I still think Jack's feelings for Laira were honest (yeah, I'm probably the only shipper who thinks that..then again, I never understood all the Laira hate *shrugs* but that's a topic for later).

IIRC RDA himself said that POV was the first episode that really forced Jack to look at Sam as a *woman*/potential partner, not as a friend/collegue and think about a possible relationship and this is how I see it too. Up till POV all the S/J stuff is just a friendship to me and I don't see ship/any hidden feelings in season 2. Sorry.

I'll be back once I have some time to read the rest of what you guys wrote and maybe *gasp* finally rewatch some episodes?

Well, we all have our own views of the love story which is why there's so much discussion and debate; it would be very boring if we all agreed.

[leiasky]

IMHO AOT didn't have any hints what so ever, Continuum had just small hints...
In effect the biggest shippy hints almost bordering confirmation we've got in Atlantis season 4...

Totally agree. And wow, is that rare! LOL!

[Nynaeve506]

This is where I disagree with you lot. I don't think that either Sam or Jack felt anything more than friendship and simple physical attraction (albeit well hidden by this point) to each other in season 2. They are friends and this is enough for now. I think they started to develop deeper feelings for each other sometime in season 3 but I still think Jack's feelings for Laira were honest (yeah, I'm probably the only shipper who thinks that..then again, I never understood all the Laira hate *shrugs* but that's a topic for later).

IIRC RDA himself said that POV was the first episode that really forced Jack to look at Sam as a *woman*/potential partner, not as a friend/collegue and think about a possible relationship and this is how I see it too. Up till POV all the S/J stuff is just a friendship to me and I don't see ship/any hidden feelings in season 2. Sorry.

I'll be back once I have some time to read the rest of what you guys wrote and maybe *gasp* finally rewatch some episodes?

I agree with you about them not having feelings for each other at the beginning past attraction. I think looking back, knowing what we know about the ship, we can see the first inklings - the chemistry that would eventually explode into our ship. For the first season there were several Sara references that led me to believe that Jack was trying to work through having lost his marriage. You don't walk away from a woman you were married to and had a child with without grieving to some extent. Heck, it was her name he called in "Solitudes".

I think Laira just came across as a little too manipulative. I think she had great affection for him (that could have grown to love), she seems a little self-serving (not that I blame her, Jack is an attractive man without a home and she's a lonely widow still young enough to bear children). While I don't think that makes her a bad person (or a good enough reason for Laira-hate), I can see why people might take a dislike to her (plus, we're all jealous for Sam, right? LOL). I think she's just a headstrong woman who knows what she wants and is willing to pursue it. She is a leader in her community after all.

[gater62]

I'm going to pop in on the discussion about whether or not the ship was meant to happen in S1-2.

I look at the first two seasons as laying down the foundation. Yes, there is attraction, but I see more a real sense of team building and evolving friendship. This is the true start to why Sam and Jack is so appealing to me as a couple. This is no fly by night attraction where the couple acts on shallow feelings. There is a deepness to what they feel that has built up over the years.

I hope this makes sense as I haven't been posting in a while.

[Petra]

I'm going to pop in on the discussion about whether or not the ship was meant to happen in S1-2.

I look at the first two seasons as laying down the foundation. Yes, there is attraction, but I see more a real sense of team building and evolving friendship. This is the true start to why Sam and Jack is so appealing to me as a couple. This is no fly by night attraction where the couple acts on shallow feelings. There is a deepness to what they feel that has built up over the years.

I hope this makes sense as I haven't been posting in a while.

Exactly, this is what I was trying to say. While the attraction and chemistry between them existed right from the start their feelings for each other evolved slowly over time. I see it like this:

season 1 - they get to know, trust and depend on each other. Jack works through his feelings for Sara while Sam after Jonas fiasco is determined to not get involved with anyone

season 2 - their trust and affection grows into real friendship

season 3 - they are still mostly friends but their friendship starts to evolve into something else..

season 4 - they are forced to confront their feelings for each other, possibly only now realising they've fallen in love

seasons 5-8 - love story continues..

I think Laira just came across as a little too manipulative. I think she had great affection for him (that could have grown to love), she seems a little self-serving (not that I blame her, Jack is an attractive man without a home and she's a lonely widow still young enough to bear children). While I don't think that makes her a bad person (or a good enough reason for Laira-hate), I can see why people might take a dislike to her (plus, we're all jealous for Sam, right? LOL). I think she's just a headstrong woman who knows what she wants and is willing to pursue it. She is a leader in her community after all.

I really don't want to get into this debate now because I haven't seen "100 days" in a long time and I may be remembering it incorrectly, but I found Laira quite likeable and I've never had any issues with her or her behaviour. IMHO shippers tend to forget that she doesn't know as much about our team and Teal'c's predicament as the audience does. But again, I can be wrong..

I just can't wait "A hundred days" discussion. it should be really interesting..

[Oma-1]

*jumps in*

I think that by the time we get to Spirits, Sam and Jack are in very different places where their feelings are concerned.

Sam: Even before COTG, she had an idea of who Jack O'Neill was. She'd read and re-read his reports from the first Abydos mission and so was desperate to impress him. I do wonder how much of a surprise it was to her to feel that physcial attraction to him and to find his sense of humour to her liking at that first meeting

I think that initial physical attraction from COTG and BD has deepened and transmuted into a very great respect and admiration for Jack, both professionally, and personally. It showed professionally in her willingness to defy orders and go with the rest of SG-1 on the mission at the end of Season 1. She had no qualms in putting her trust in the Colonel. The personal respect came from her glimpses into his past in Cold Lazarus and Solitudes. Sam realises his determination and strength of character, his ability to recover from the unrecoverable.

As we move through S2, I'm fairly sure MIAB had a great impact on her, she realised that she cared for Jack as more than her CO, possibly putting it down to her growing friendship with him.

By the time we get to Spirits, she still has that serious case of hero worship with an underlying physical and emotional attraction that persists despite her attempts to rationalise it as friendship. I don't think she realises for one moment that she is on the brink of falling for him.



Jack: Jack was at his cynical best when he first met Sam, saw her as a beautiful woman first, then as a scientist, and lastly as an officer. Through S1 he was still getting over his failed marriage to Sara and had no room in his heart for Sam. That didn't stop him from being attracted though, as evidenced by "Not like this!" and his teasing in BD

I think S1 showed him coming to trust her skills as both soldier and scientist, respect her judgement and put out of his mind his attraction to a subordinate. Right up until Daniel announces Gen O'Neill and Dr Carter's engagement. Then I think he starts to add up his respect for her, his physical attraction, the possiblity that their relationship would have if she wasn't under his command, and realises that there is potential for disaster here if he doesn't watch himself.

ITLOD blows his barriers away, and he knows that his feelings for Sam have crossed the boundaries. The Tok'ra backs this up - I think he's jealous that Martouf and Sam have that little tete a tete on the dunes, and his not wanting to leave Sam with Martouf and Jacob is a lot more than an unwillingness that nobody gets left behind.

By Spirits, Jack thinks he has effectively buried his growing "inappropriate" feelings for Sam. He shows his pride in her in a professional capacity, and encourages their friendship to grow because he's rationalised it as necessary for team cohesion; afterall, he's friends with Daniel and Teal'c too. But it's all still there, just simmering away, with the ocassional bubble bursting free.

[Oma-1]

I'm not mentioning Laira either at this point I'll have plenty to say on the subject when we get to A Hundred Days....