Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[josiane]

I do see the parallels with Entity insofar as in this episode Sam (and Daniel) talked Jack into bringing the orb to the SGC, and so I'm sure she feels responsible, and yes there are definite similarities with her situation that honestly, I hadn't even seen until you mentioned it. But I also think that the situation in Entity is worse for Jack, because it's his feelings for her that get her into trouble- something that shouldn't have been there in the first place, whereas Sam was acting as her job required her to do. So with Sam and Daniel, the most we can say is that s**t happens even when you do your best- with Jack it really was his fault.

But it is interesting how many experiences they share. I'm not sure how any one of these SG-1 team members could have relationships outside the SGC. Who would ever understand what they've been through?

Oh it's definitely way worse for Jack, I take your point about the fault there entirely. The experiences they have that mirror aren't necessarily equal in how painful they are (for example, I think Jack did way worse out of his Tok'ra experience than Sam did, with Abyss, but likewise, Sam's guilt over Jack's capture and torture in Abyss has got to be way worse than Jack's guilt over Sam's capture and torture in New Order), but I do think, as you say, that it's striking how many things they have both experienced, either together or individually, by the time they get together

[VSS]

Or any SG team member. Not just SG-1.



Hmm, definitely good point. In a way it was better and less painful for Jack than having to relive his son's death.

Though - how many variations did they do of Daniel's parents death? They could have done the same for Jack and the emotional impact would have been stronger.

But Daniel was a kid and didn't have control of the situation- and his parents and everyone else treated him like one. He even seemed to revert a little, IMHO.

Jack had more control, and the situation with Charlie had far fewer variables than the situation with his colonel. So maybe the residents just preferred the mission replay. After all, that's why people love to play war games like that on-line.

Daniel didn't have a similar thing in his past or maybe they'd have picked it, as well. Jack had seen a lot of traumatic things compared to Daniel- maybe his parent's death was one of the few things they felt they could get him to replay over and over.

Though, trying to rescue Sha're should have been at the top of the list- that scene in the prison in Chulak comes to mind.

[Aveo_amacus]

One of the reasons I think the *writers* chose that moment for Jack rather than Charlie's death, is that although it's hard for Jack to go through, it's nothing like reliving Charlie's death would be. I think the writers kinda blanched at that storyline. For me I could imagine that *huge* reprocussions that it would have on Jack. As we see in MiaB Jack now wants to live, I dread to think what would have happened to the character if he had to witness it again. That said I definitely do not want to belittle Daniel's experience, however I do feel that there may be a difference in their characters where this could really damage Jack - more than Daniel. jmho!
As you all point out, many different scenarios could have been used, and I imagine it was the Gamekeeper's intention to go through them all, these were just the first ones out...


Leiasky: Janissima's ff page
A Mother's Love which comes first, but you don't have to read to understand A Father's Determination

[VSS]

One of the reasons I think the *writers* chose that moment for Jack rather than Charlie's death, is that although it's hard for Jack to go through, it's nothing like reliving Charlie's death would be. I think the writers kinda blanched at that storyline. For me I could imagine that *huge* reprocussions that it would have on Jack. As we see in MiaB Jack now wants to live, I dread to think what would have happened to the character if he had to witness it again. That said I definitely do not want to belittle Daniel's experience, however I do feel that there may be a difference in their characters where this could really damage Jack - more than Daniel. jmho!
As you all point out, many different scenarios could have been used, and I imagine it was the Gamekeeper's intention to go through them all, these were just the first ones out...

Yes. I agree, they just didn't want to go there. Although they came pretty close in The Devil You Know. But over and over- no way, that's asking too much of both Jack and the audience.

[VSS]

Family

Favorite Quote: Don’t have one.
Favorite Scene: The one in the house after their foiled rescue attempt, because I love Fro’tac’s house and Jack looks pretty fine in that scene.

Thanks, Josi!

All right, I’ll admit I never watched this one all the way through before. I thought it was pretty harsh of Teal’c to shoot his son- why is it that everyone in this series ends up zapping the ones they love? I also never made the connection between a zat and an electrical discharge, even though they’re made to look that way. So that was interesting. Other than that, this was a hard one to watch because of its impact on Teal’c.

I remember back during Bloodlines I wondered why the family didn’t move into the base, and I still don’t accept the flimsy excuse of them being like prisoners there. Considering what has and will happen, that’s a small price to pay. However, the compromise with the Land of Light seems pretty fair, in the end. Maybe the Tollan are too snooty for that planet but it does seem like a nice place.

By the end of this episode I became convinced that I’m not a Drey’ac fan. She doesn’t seem like a strong or loyal person. As much as she still has feelings for Teal’c, she essentially made a deal with Fro’tac, and then she reneged. Really, I’m surprised that Teal’c didn’t hold her to it, although maybe the Jaffa culture seems to tolerate or expect infidelity? I’m thinking of Teal’c and Ishta and that girl from Affinity.

Daniel and Teal’c both end up with their wives married to someone else. When Daniel translates the phrase about being cuckolded, I wonder what he’s thinking. Does he think that happened to him, or perhaps not because Sha’re was held against her will? At any rate, there are some parallels here, I think. Poor Jack has to be breathing a sigh of relief that he doesn’t have a woman who’s hooked up with someone else… oh, wait… It’s tough to be a guy on Stargate SG-1.

There isn’t a lot of Sam and Jack interaction here that I saw- though the briefing (which took place at the house ) did have them sitting together. I’m desperate for briefing room scenes, I tell you! And of course, Jack has this little weak spot for kids and gives Ry’ac a baseball mitt. The scene where he puts it on his head was pretty funny- that seemed very realistic!

[hedwig]

One of the reasons I think the *writers* chose that moment for Jack rather than Charlie's death, is that although it's hard for Jack to go through, it's nothing like reliving Charlie's death would be. I think the writers kinda blanched at that storyline. For me I could imagine that *huge* reprocussions that it would have on Jack. As we see in MiaB Jack now wants to live, I dread to think what would have happened to the character if he had to witness it again. That said I definitely do not want to belittle Daniel's experience, however I do feel that there may be a difference in their characters where this could really damage Jack - more than Daniel. jmho!
As you all point out, many different scenarios could have been used, and I imagine it was the Gamekeeper's intention to go through them all, these were just the first ones out...


Leiasky: Janissima's ff page
A Mother's Love which comes first, but you don't have to read to understand A Father's Determination

Both of those are absolutely excellent stories, and are on my all-time favorite fanfic story list. I have them saved on my computer, and just to be extra cautious, also saved onto a disc (which is steadily becoming more full all the time with excellent fanfics).

[leiasky]

Leiasky: Janissima's ff page
A Mother's Love which comes first, but you don't have to read to understand A Father's Determination

I read these a while ago and can remember liking them. I'll have to go back and re-read.

[Zoser]

I didn't see any particular ship in Thor's Chariot but that may be because I was blinded by the fact I was so happy they actually got in a firefight and used their weapons.

I liked the axe, myself.

[Zoser]

Gun love. Wait until Allegiance.
Well, you may not have quite the same reaction as I did.

I was thinking Rules of Engagement.

[Zoser]

Oh I love this part too, and it's another example of how all of SG1 pull together whatever happens. There may not be an obvious way for one of them to help out or be involved, but they still stick together and find some way of being useful, even if it's just being there for each other.



Oh yes absolutely. This is another step in Jack's rehabilitation in this way.



I agree, it's not terribly obviously shippy, and Sam and Jack are apart for a lot of it, but in terms of the development of the ship as a whole I always put this together with Entity, as what happens to Jack here is after all very similar to what happened with Sam then. And likewise it's Sam here that is the one that 'kills' him in order to cure him. So while what happens in MiaB isn't quite so shippy in itself, it is part of the overall mirroring pattern of Sam and Jack's experiences. Which I think is important in terms of setting up parallels and mutual understanding, and also a subconcious portrayal that they match - cf the physical mirroring of body language we see so much.

I concede to the mirroring with Entity to a point. I don't see this episode as shippy. Sam is too clinical - too much the scientist with a phenomenon to study and a problem to solve. It reminded me more of her reaction in the beginning of A Matter of Time.

[Aveo_amacus]

I was thinking Rules of Engagement.

or The Carter Special
Evolution and Heroes might work too

[Zoser]

Or any SG team member. Not just SG-1.



Hmm, definitely good point. In a way it was better and less painful for Jack than having to relive his son's death.

Though - how many variations did they do of Daniel's parents death? They could have done the same for Jack and the emotional impact would have been stronger.

I don't think it was about pain but entertaining these bored people with fresh memories that can be manipulated. SG-1 was a fresh DVD library for them.

[Zoser]

or The Carter Special
Evolution and Heroes might work too

I love Heroes!!!

[Aveo_amacus]

I don't think it was about pain but entertaining these bored people with fresh memories that can be manipulated. SG-1 was a fresh DVD library for them.

that's a good point there, these people were so bored that they didn't think about the human cost to their entertainment. It's not unheard of throughout history

[leiasky]

I don't think it was about pain but entertaining these bored people with fresh memories that can be manipulated. SG-1 was a fresh DVD library for them.

Very true. We can assume they'd have gotten to the real painful parts after they'd exhausted this particular scenario.