Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[KatG]

Except for the fact that your children would most likely be sterile.

And nobody likes my new sig

If both are human, why would the children be sterile.

And I like your sig just fine.

[VSS]

Yes, the sig is fine. Although it made me check my watch, ask for a charge slip and look around for a prescription pad.

Reflex.

[Coela Bellatore]

No, they wouldn't. The divergence of genetic lines is greater between Native Americans and caucasians than between humans of other planets and the Tau'ri.

We're all the same species.

I would doubt that, the exposure to different levels of atmospheric gases, plants, animals, bacteria's, solar radiation, etc. would cause more genetic changes than having two different genetic ancestors. We did an experiment in college where we had two different species of a bacteria that belonged to the same genus. We placed two dishes, one from each species, in identical conditions and then placed a single dish of each in a separate environment with different levels of light and oxygen and such. We let them go through about 100 generations (one month) and then compared their genes. The two in the same conditions were more similar to each other than they were to their own species that had existed in different conditions.

Remember even though all those aliens are white and appear to come from European descent they are actually descended from Neolithic, pre-Egyptian, humans. Horses and Donkeys are just one chromosome apart and within the same Genus and their offspring are infertile 99.99999% of the time.

[VSS]

I would doubt that, the exposure to different levels of atmospheric gases, plants, animals, bacteria's, solar radiation, etc. would cause more genetic changes than having two different genetic ancestors. We did an experiment in college where we had two different species of a bacteria that belonged to the same genus. We placed two dishes, one from each species, in identical conditions and then placed a single dish of each in a separate environment with different levels of light and oxygen and such. We let them go through about 100 generations (one month) and then compared their genes. The two in the same conditions were more similar to each other than they were to their own species that had existed in different conditions.

Remember even though all those aliens are white and appear to come from European descent they are actually descended from Neolithic, pre-Egyptian, humans. Horses and Donkeys are just one chromosome apart and within the same Genus and their offspring are infertile 99.99999% of the time.

But a chromosome is a huge amount of genetic material, not a couple of genetic mutations here and there.

We're talking about speciation- your bacteria are till the same species. You can go back and cross them and they will do just fine. That experiment selected for a bunch of different traits, but did not select for divergent reproductive capacity, which would be exceedingly hard to do since the propagation of the species depends on it.

Being on different planets might very well select for a very small amount of divergence, but not reproductive divergence which would have to be utterly random, and since Native Americans (who diverged from everyone else over 10,000 years ago, twice as long ago as the first humans were taken away by Ra) and caucasians can still have normal offspring, there's no reason why non-earth humans wouldn't be able to breed with them, either. The selective pressures on other planets aren't all that different, anyway. They all look like Canada, remember.

If they couldn't interbreed with humans they wouldn't be humans. That's a necessary condition for being part of the same species.

Edit: You gotta admit GW is an interesting place, where else can people can actually have a serious conversation about interplanetary sex?

[VSS]

Sorry, the biologist in me just has to make one more comment-
The Asgard are a perfect example of selective pressure on reproductive capacity. They bypassed it entirely and through genetic drift, lost the capacity to reproduce by anything other than cloning.

Use it, or lose it. It applies on a genetic level, too.

[Coela Bellatore]

But a chromosome is a huge amount of genetic material, not a couple of genetic mutations here and there.

We're talking about speciation- your bacteria are till the same species. You can go back and cross them and they will do just fine. That experiment selected for a bunch of different traits, but did not select for divergent reproductive capacity, which would be exceedingly hard to do since the propagation of the species depends on it.

Being on different planets might very well select for a very small amount of divergence, but not reproductive divergence which would have to be utterly random, and since Native Americans (who diverged from everyone else over 10,000 years ago, twice as long ago as the first humans were taken away by Ra) and caucasians can still have normal offspring, there's no reason why non-earth humans wouldn't be able to breed with them, either. The selective pressures on other planets aren't all that different, anyway. They all look like Canada, remember.

If they couldn't interbreed with humans they wouldn't be humans. That's the very definition of a species.

Hmm true but single chromosome mutations are incredibly common in humans already, Y-Chromosome mutations in the general population due to any number of causes would result in incompatibility with human X-Chromosomes.
We're so off topic.

And I like your sig just fine.

MS Paint *****ez! But seriously thanks, I can't show it to anyone here or they will just call me a ***. Or they won't get it and then when I explain it to them, they would be deeply offended that I would ever try to procreate with a female medical officer, and would totally not understand the concept of "actor" at all. God I love Afghani translators.

[Coela Bellatore]

Sorry, the biologist in me just has to make one more comment-
The Asgard are a perfect example of selective pressure on reproductive capacity. They bypassed it entirely and through genetic drift, lost the capacity to reproduce by anything other than cloning.

Use it, or lose it. It applies on a genetic level, too.

Thats why they have no genitalia! That explains so much.

[Petra]

Wow, I think this thread became one of the most - if not the most - educational threads on GW. That's cool.

Seeing as we already count seat arrangements can someone also keep track of smilies? How many times Jack specifically smiles at Sam, Daniel and Teal'c? I'd do it myself if I could, but as I said I can't rewatch episodes now.

[Aveo_amacus]

This is the thing that stays with me, that Narim is actually the first in what is to become quite a long line of guys pushing their feelings onto Sam in an attempt to make her feel for them. Martouf did it via Jolinar, and Orlin with the glowy thing. You could even kind of argue that Pete showed signs of it in Threads, with the house and the dog and everything - like they're so in love with her that they don't stop to think about whether it's actually reciprocated. I agree with VSS though that it's because Sam is so compassionate that she is affected by these things, but really, can't these aliens give her a break?!

Completely agree with this Twin

Except for the fact that your children would most likely be sterile.

The children would only be sterile if the parents had different numbers of chomosome pairs. Horses and Donkeys have different numbers of chromosomes (64, 62 pairs respectively) which when they combine cannot pair up so the offspring then has an odd chromosome.

Humans actually have one of the smallest amount of genotypic differences across mammalian population grades. Chimpanzee populations living on opposite coasts of africa have more genetic differences than any two humans (although from untrained eye chimps appear very similar phenotypically).

Homo sapiens as a species (and therefore reproductively compatible) has been present on Earth for some where in the region of 200 000 years. In the SG universe the earliest the Goa'uld could have removed humans from Earth would be 10 000 years, some much more recently (Demons). Therefore although natural selection could occur within these colony populations throughout the galaxy they would not have changed that much.

*stuffs Anthropologist back in her box*

[VSS]

Solitudes
Favorite Quote:
Carter: If we don’t make it, I won’t have any regrets.
O’Neill: I’ll regret dying.
Favorite Scene: When Jack orders Sam to implement Plan B. I could write an essay on that scene alone.

Thanks, Oma!

I would liked to have been in fandom when Solitudes aired. It’s such fantastic drama and character piece that you forget it’s supposed to be a scifi series. And, I must admit, this combination of BW doing the writing and MW directing is what is giving me high hopes for SG1-3. I’m expecting a pull-out-all-the-stops-nail-biting-tearjerker finale for the series, and no less.

The scene showing the ice cave carved from the wormhole is our first indication that something has gone horribly, terribly wrong.

Spoiler:

There’s ice that’s been demolecularized in front of and behind the gate, suggesting that this gate operates more like the gate from the movie, with a tornado effect behind the frontal “kawoosh” that we always see. What did the stargate program do to control that feature at the SGC? Do they ever say- like they did with the frequency dampeners (nicely explained in this episode, BTW)?

The scene where Sam is setting Jack’s leg is outstanding- did AT get nominated for an award for this episode? She was fantastic.
The interaction between the two characters is so realistic- she’s trying to distract him, trying to be the tough medic and is getting her first real insight into what makes him tick- all at the same time. And Jack’s got to be in an incredible amount of pain to show it like that. The way Sam’s face changes (and the music that comes up) when he mentions Sara shows exactly what that means to her- not only is he confiding in her about one of the worst times in his life, he’s sharing his deepest feelings. And it just so happens that those feelings concern his wife. I think Sam is truly shocked by the revelation, and probably holds him in even higher regard after this.

Jack’s story about Iraq also helps clarify exactly why he puts his team first before anything else, as we saw so clearly illustrated in Cor-ai. He knows exactly what it means to abandoned. Even if he knew that could happen going in, that had to have made a lasting impact on him.

Throughout the episode, he looks progressively worse and I have to hand it to them for getting shock, hypoxia and hypothermia down pretty darn well in this episode. When Sam is rattling on about her theories and he’s not paying attention, you get this sick feeling it’s not because he’s bored. And then, the difference between his skin color and Sam’s when coughs up that blood is striking. He really is on death’s door. Nice job, RDA and the make-up crew.

I read through the comments and a lot of people complained about Sam not dialing another planet.

Spoiler:

We don’t, in fact, know that she didn’t. But her point of origin is not correct- she uses the one she thinks is the point of origin, but it’s the wrong one. She would actually have to know that she’s on earth to be able to dial anywhere. She could never have gotten them out of there on her own.

Also, this is the first time we get a good look at Earth’s address, and it doesn’t include our point of origin, which is, however, on that DHD. I wonder what Sam thought about that. She probably would have figured out what was going on eventually, but it would have required a huge paradigm shift. So I think Sam took a bad rap in this episode that she doesn’t deserve.

In the end, Daniel figures out what’s going on, and it had to have been so frustrating for him- he’s way out of his field trying to find the one person who could have figured it out in no time at all, but he doesn’t give up, he just uses his intellect in a different way. And poor Teal’c, whose solution is always action, has to sit on his hands. So it’s a terrific team episode as well.

The scene where Jack sends Sam up to the surface is just heartwrenching. He’s dying, and his final wish is to be in command as well as to give her a chance to live. Sam doesn’t have to do what he says at this point, but she follows his orders anyway. And the scene where she climbs out and we get that wide-angle shot is really something else. It’s just hopeless.

The next scene where she goes back down to be with Jack, thinking they’ll both die is so powerful and says so much about their relationship that it’s hard to describe. I do think that anyone who believes these two have nothing in common and nothing on which to build a romantic relationship might need to rewatch Solitudes. I’ve heard that in some foreign releases her name was substituted for Sara’s but I’m not sure how I feel about that. Would that have made everything feel very different? I think it would have.

Of course, maybe if Jack and Sam had another experience like this later, they might have not have forgotten about how much they share and what they mean to each other, either.

I will admit I got teary-eyed when the helicopter showed up. I loved the realism of involving the base at McMurdoe, even if they weren’t really there.

I really wish we'd have had more of these stranded stories, and not just between Sam and Jack. WHy weren't there more? The closest other one we get is Abyss, and it was terrific, too.

Implications for Sam & Jack: This must have forged a deep bond between the two of them. Sam, in particular must have felt a lot closer to him than previously. I wonder, though, how much Jack remembers, and does this have something to do with why Sam seems to be the first one of the two to look at the other in “that way?”

Also, this episode just serves to reinforce how much Jack loved Sara, and how hard that must have been for him. Personally, I'm glad they kept bringing that up throughout the first season. For me, it only serves to reinforce the idea that once he fell in love with Sam, it was permanent.

[VSS]

In the SG universe the earliest the Goa'uld could have removed humans from Earth would be 10 000 years, some much more recently (Demons).

All right, I know the answer should be obvious to me, since it's in Solitudes somewhere I'm sure, but why 10,000 years? Is that from the age of the Antarctic gate? The ice age that covered it? The serpent guard that they found? Which again, I fail to see the significance of, primarily because I'm clueless about the various goa'uld minions that are running around out there.

Part of the reason why Daniel figures out there's a second gate is that there were alien cultures the SG teams have encountered that were from derived from earth cultures that arose after the first gate was buried 5,000 years ago. (Which, of course, means that all those episodes were partially a set-up for Solitudes- now that's continuity!) He deduces there had to be a means to take people off of earth after the Egyptian gate was buried.
So was the Antarctic gate operational both before and after that? I'm not really sure I get the chronology, here.

[Aveo_amacus]

opps I thought it was 10 000 in the movie, sorry 5000 my bad!

[VSS]

opps I thought it was 10 000 in the movie, sorry 5000 my bad!

No, you're right, I believe- I still think that gate is older than the Egyptian gate. So you got your information from somewhere! Remember, they found that Ancient woman up there, too.

[hedwig]

No, you're right, I believe- I still think that gate is older than the Egyptian gate. So you got your information from somewhere! Remember, they found that Ancient woman up there, too.

And didn't Janet figure that Ayiana had been there for something on the order of 3 million years? Or am I misremembering that #?

[VSS]

And didn't Janet figure that Ayiana had been there for something on the order of 3 million years? Or am I misremembering that #?

Well, for sure older than 10,000 years!