Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

Great summary VSS.
I agree with you on the lack of UST. I don't know if I'm reading too much into it, but do you think that the lack of UST could be attributed to Hathor and her pink sex-drug?? She seems a bit taken aback by Sam and says "you're an exceptionally beautiful woman" could that be that she's worried that a beautiful woman could undermine her affect on the male personnel? Could the lack of UST between Jack and Sam be affected by Hathor's drug, making Jack less (not sure of the right word here) receptive to Sam in this ep?

On the other aspects of this ep, I agree some of the emotional side-effects of this ep aren't discussed but I do like the roles Janet and Sam get to have in this ep
(plus I like the scene where Sam takes down Hammond
Yeah, my career is over
:janet: don't worry I can fix him up as good as new when this is over
great, so he can bring me up on charges)

We're on the same wavelength (as well as me being up at this unholy hour) because I agree completely on everything you wrote. I do think it's the drug- it's making Jack attentive to Hathor instead of to Sam. That was very clever and very subtle on their part.

And that quote was tied for first with the "crunches" one, for me.
But the other one featured Jack's belly- I'm so shallow.

[josiane]

Great summary VSS.
I agree with you on the lack of UST. I don't know if I'm reading too much into it, but do you think that the lack of UST could be attributed to Hathor and her pink sex-drug?? She seems a bit taken aback by Sam and says "you're an exceptionally beautiful woman" could that be that she's worried that a beautiful woman could undermine her affect on the male personnel? Could the lack of UST between Jack and Sam be affected by Hathor's drug, making Jack less (not sure of the right word here) receptive to Sam in this ep?

On the other aspects of this ep, I agree some of the emotional side-effects of this ep aren't discussed but I do like the roles Janet and Sam get to have in this ep
(plus I like the scene where Sam takes down Hammond
Yeah, my career is over
:janet: don't worry I can fix him up as good as new when this is over
great, so he can bring me up on charges)

Oh great theory! Yes!

[silly sally]

Season 2 Shipper Rewatch schedule:
May 18 The Serpent’s Lair
May 20 In the Line of Duty
May 22 Prisoners
May 27 The Gamekeeper
May 29 Need
May 29 Thor’s Chariot
June 2 Message in a Bottle
June 3 Family
June 5 Secrets
June 8 Bane
June 10 The Tok’ra Part 1
June 12 The Tok’ra Part 2
June 15 Spirits
June 17 Touchstone
June 19 The Fifth Race
June 22 A Matter of Time
June 24 Holiday
June 26 Serpent’s Song
June 29 One False Step
July 2 Show and Tell
July 6 1969
July 8 Out of Mind

For shippers in the US, Season 2 is now available on hulu.com
Also, if anyone want to help with writing up the episodes, let me know! And huge thanks to the denizens of the Art Thread for the banners.

I haven't seen an episode in ages; can I help with writing for "The Fifth Race"?

[Aveo_amacus]

We're on the same wavelength (as well as me being up at this unholy hour) because I agree completely on everything you wrote. I do think it's the drug- it's making Jack attentive to Hathor instead of to Sam. That was very clever and very subtle on their part.

And that quote was tied for first with the "crunches" one, for me.
But the other one featured Jack's belly- I'm so shallow.

yeah it really shows how indepth and early the thought to 'ship' these two characters was if either the director or the actors (or both) decided to play the scenes so differently from normal
Just another example that the ship wasn't created after OoF/ItM

[VSS]

I haven't seen an episode in ages; can I help with writing for "The Fifth Race"?

Definitely! As much help as we can get would be great.
I haven't seen any of these in at least a year, either.
I can PM the banner to you when I get it from the art thread, they're working on it now.

[Sarai]

Wow, looking forward to actually being able to get involved with Season 2, since I finish my degree on the 19th of May (!)

Great Hathor discussion. Not going to throw in my two cents today but I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts and comments.

[Rac80]

Hathor

Favorite Quote:
Sam: It’s a miracle!
Jack: It’s crunches

Favorite scene: When Hathor tries to kill Jack with the hand device, and Sam unloads the entire clip at her. It’s overkill, as if Sam wants this woman really dead.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...tch/Hathor.jpg
Banner by Achaja

You definitely have to hand it to the goa’uld. They know how to pick attractive hosts. I am not a huge fan of the whole

Spoiler:

goa’uld concept, but it’s an interesting combination of beautiful people possessed by repulsive, evil snakes. Just in case we didn’t already know they’re the bad guys! And, as cheesy as this is they’re its quite a bit more interesting than some later villains. Even with bad guys you can’t overlook the eye candy as an integral and appealing part of the episode. And that’s pretty much all this episode was, although it had the potential to be more, but the writers just didn’t want to go there, I guess. There should have been more angst- Sam and Janet were betrayed and locked up by their colleagues and close friends- Daniel was raped- Jack almost made into a Jaffa- General Hammond was duped. None of this is examined in any depth whatsoever, or even acted with much feeling, and they gloss over it by making the men magically forget in the end.

Hathor, like the beginning of Brief Candle, seems like someone’s idea of a male fantasy. But this episode is considerably creepier, with Jack almost becoming a Jaffa and Daniel contributing his DNA (I couldn’t decide whether to laugh or cringe when Hathor said she needed his “juices”.) Why, in 10 years, is Sam never seduced by an alien? Hathor literally wants the men’s bodies, Laira and Niirti more or less do, too. Kynthia is a little bit better in this regard but it seems pretty clear that the main theme for the men is sex with an alien- for Sam it’s more like romance with an alien. Why? Is there any doubt that if Jack or Daniel had been captured and traded to an Amazon queen that she’d have had her way with him, not challenged him to a knife fight like Sam in Emancipation?

Anyway, Janet has a chance to shine in this episode. I think they had another opportunity to do something with Sam and her potential problems with being a woman in the military, but didn’t. In fact, Janet sticks up for the Air Force by saying they have more women than the other branches of the military, which (I think) is true. I wonder if it was the series’ close ties to the USAF that made them avoid this topic?

Two things I noticed is that early on, it’s evident that Jack only had a jacket on with no t-shirt, and Sam had that flight suit, again, with no shirt. Interesting subtle suggestion, there. In fact, I've seen that screen cap where he pats her on the shoulder used in a shippy way- but in the actual scene it was quite unshippy, IMHO. It was noticeable how Jack treated her just as he would any other airman. There was absolutely none of that attraction that is seen in the other early episodes, which just goes to show you how incredibly important the acting and the actors’ chemistry is to this ship. Only at the very end, when Jack congratulates her on the commendation do we see any kind of affection.

In the end, why did Jack let Hathor go, then act like he forgot? He should have remembered everything since being in the sarcophagus. That made no sense.
I don’t think that we ever see another episode that treats potentially disturbing events quite so superficially as Hathor did. I don’t think they’d have done it like this in subsequent seasons.

Importance for Sam and Jack’s relationship: I think that the total absence of any UST between them in this episode is important for the audience, to provide a contrast with what they’re like the rest of the time. In case we hadn’t noticed.

I have what appears to be "the usual problems" with this episode. The unaddressed trust issues, the "lost memories", the rape of Daniel, etc... but I must admit it has my favorite Janet lines:
CARTER: Yeah, well Mama said there'd days like this.

FRAISER: Really? My ex-husband said that. "Are you outta your mind honey-buns? There is a reason they call it this man's army."

CARTER: This mans army? Your husband actually said that?

FRAISER: Yeah, so of course I explained to him it wasn't the Army, it was the Air Force and they've had women for decades.



and then these:
FRAISER: Gentlemen, there are five women in here, very alone.

CARTER: Why do I feel like I'm in a women-behind-bars movie?

Janet opens her jacket and Airwoman1 takes off her jacket.





I do agree that Hathor's drug overwhelmed any UST between S/J.

[Coela Bellatore]

CARTER: Yeah, well Mama said there'd days like this.

FRAISER: Really? My ex-husband said that. "Are you outta your mind honey-buns? There is a reason they call it this man's army."

CARTER: This mans army? Your husband actually said that?

FRAISER: Yeah, so of course I explained to him it wasn't the Army, it was the Air Force and they've had women for decades.



and then these:
FRAISER: Gentlemen, there are five women in here, very alone.

CARTER: Why do I feel like I'm in a women-behind-bars movie?

Janet opens her jacket and Airwoman1 takes off her jacket.


I do agree that Hathor's drug overwhelmed any UST between S/J.

I thought these were particularly interesting conversations as I was wondering what kind of girl-girl dialog they would put in. I have a good grasp of what people talk like in the airforce (being in it) but this was something that I had no knowledge of (not being a woman). Women are treated differently in every service, and I mean that in both ways. For female pilots, god I can't imagine it, male pilots make me feel uncomfortable their so sexist and horny all the time. Every time she went anywhere Carter would have to deal with that briefing room scene from CoTG.

Jeez, now I'm wondering if I teat women badly. We only see them rarely and only interact with them when we take them with us to search female Afghani's.

But back to the original topic on the episode, I found that the episode was sort of an extend metaphor on how male dominated the armed forces are and how that can be a problem when the testosterone gets a bit too thick. Like in Italy in WWII when more soldiers were taken off the lines for STD's than combat wounds.

[Toomi]

I finally had an hour to sit and watch Hathor....

Fave Quote: Janet: "Are ya out of your mind hunny buns? There's a reason they call this the man's army.

Fave Scene: The scene with Sam and Janet when they seduce the airman.


When Hathor first speaks, she speaks with a human voice, not a Goa'ulded voice. Is this the first time we see this? I know that Ba'al speaks as a human in later years, but I think this may be the first time we see this.

Jack's first response is to dismiss her as crazy and try to bundle her off to a mental institute. He doesn't even seem concerned about the fact that she knew the stargate was there...

They're all so shocked to find out that there's a Goa'uld on Earth and has been for a while. Up to now they only know of Ra and Apophis? They know of the symbiotes, that there's more than a few, but to find out their enemy has been 'sleeping' on Earth for several thousand years must be unnerving. It opens the question of how many more are there?

Kudos for Sam standing up and questionning the Generals orders but the rest of that scene irks me....

I love how the women band together with Teal'c to take down Hathor.

Even though Jack is drugged up, he seems to be fighting it, going to Hathor with questions. Then she 'doses' him again, and continues to do her Jaffa creating thing.

When Teal'c is carrying Jack down the narrow corridor over his shoulder, he has his hand over his head. I wonder if RDA got a few bumps in previous takes?

Overall, not an episode I'd watch again. It's just one of those episodes that's there. It does show a few things as far as the general storyline goes. How Jaffa can be created, how the Queen 'creates' new goa'uld etc.

Implications for Sam and Jack: Well, not much really. The only thing I can come up with is that Sam along with Janet and many of the women on the base just showed what they can do and managed to stop Hathor creating a Jaffa army from the SGC men.

[VSS]

I thought these were particularly interesting conversations as I was wondering what kind of girl-girl dialog they would put in. I have a good grasp of what people talk like in the airforce (being in it) but this was something that I had no knowledge of (not being a woman). Women are treated differently in every service, and I mean that in both ways. For female pilots, god I can't imagine it, male pilots make me feel uncomfortable their so sexist and horny all the time. Every time she went anywhere Carter would have to deal with that briefing room scene from CoTG.

Jeez, now I'm wondering if I teat women badly. We only see them rarely and only interact with them when we take them with us to search female Afghani's.

But back to the original topic on the episode, I found that the episode was sort of an extend metaphor on how male dominated the armed forces are and how that can be a problem when the testosterone gets a bit too thick. Like in Italy in WWII when more soldiers were taken off the lines for STD's than combat wounds.

I had never looked at it from that angle, so that's an excellent point. I was ready just to write this episode off as being pure eye candy, but now I'm going to have to rethink it.

I used to work with the medical equivalent of male fighter pilots- it's the same attitude, they just use bigger words. The big advantage I had that women in the armed forces don't have is not being outranked, so basically if I held my ground, had a sense of humor and didn't let them get away with any BS it was okay. Great, actually. But if you're outranked, and you just have to take it unless it's really egregious- I don't know. I probably wouldn't have lasted a week before shooting off my mouth and getting bounced.

Speaking of which....

[COLOR="Blue"]

Fave Quote: Janet: "Are ya out of your mind hunny buns? There's a reason they call this the man's army.

This doesn't quite ring true to me. She's already got a man's job, especially back in those days, so I'm thinking her husband would be more supportive. But, you never know- dysfunctional relationships exist pretty much anywhere. Probably they were teenage sweethearts, got married young, and she outgrew him. That, I can see.

They're all so shocked to find out that there's a Goa'uld on Earth and has been for a while. Up to now they only know of Ra and Apophis? They know of the symbiotes, that there's more than a few, but to find out their enemy has been 'sleeping' on Earth for several thousand years must be unnerving. It opens the question of how many more are there?

Nice point. Let's see- other aliens beside Hathor... THere is the Ancient woman, Ayana (sp?), and the goa'uld Seth (who isn't even sleeping!). Any others?

[gater62]

I know that there were times when I had to go to ships to do repairs or take pipe readings that the way the guys oogled me made me quite uncomfortable, so I can imagine what Carter was going through. It's a shame that we didn't get to see more women interaction episodes (yes, I know it's SG-1, but don't you think some really cool storylines could have been written?) cuz I loved how the women worked together in this episode.

[Rac80]

VSS- there was Isis (her canopic jar was cracked though) and Osiris there as well. Those were the other two I though of.

gater62-- I think we deserved to see more of the women bonding and banding together at the SGC. Being out numbered by men, the women would have needed to stick together.

[starlover]

*hops in thread*

*waves*

Hi...you get for today only...a guest reviewer...instead of your regular ones...I hope you all like it...if you don't I promise never to do it again...oh and I know it's longer than the regular ones...but this is one of my fav episodes and then I tend to babble a lot! Sorry!

Singularity

Favorite Quote:
We have a rule here on Earth. Every kid has got to have a dog. This is a dog. And he's yours.

Favorite Scene:
The one where Sam stays with Cassie in the basement and ignores Jack’s order.

*banner by Padme

In the beginning of the episode Jack knows the word “accretion disc” and Daniel is surprised about that while Sam isn’t. This does say something about how well Daniel knows Jack. He has lived with Jack for a while and he doesn’t know that he really does watch through the telescope for the stars and not to the neighbours. I had expected Daniel to be more curious and he should have figured it out. I do think if Jack knows something like that he probably has books about it and Daniel, who lived with him, should have seen that.

Sam on the other hand does know this. Has she already talked with him? Or has she already seen through the pretending to be dumb thing? Anyways she knows about it while Daniel doesn’t. In my opinion this says something about their relationship. I do think that Sam and Jack spend time together talking about other things than just work related.

Teal'c/Cassie Janet and Jack...spoilered...

Spoiler:

Everyone puts a mask on except for Teal’c. I find this a bit weird. I know his symbiote protects him for a lot of things but how do they know that this will be safe for Teal’c? Perhaps he doesn’t get sick but he can still affect others around him and he can become a carrier of the disease. I do think that Teal’c should also have put a mask on because with visiting alien planets and certainly when everyone is dead you never know what can happen.

You get the credits and in the next scene they’ve already put up an infirmary sort of thing there. Or perhaps it was already there. I don’t know. The point I want to make is that Janet wants Jack to be the first one to be checked. With all the thoughts in mind that Jack hates doctors I find it funny that in here he doesn’t complain at all and just goes along with Janet.

I find it funny that Cassie immediately trusts Teal’c and put her hand in his big one. This is so because she has just seen everyone she knows die after some new strangers came on the planet. Now some other strangers come that look a lot like the other ones(that could have caused the death of everyone around her) and she trusts them again. I think a child should be traumatized and wouldn’t trust anyone. Certainly not people that look like the possible killers of her people.

I find it funny that even though Sam is a warrior/ Captain she immediately bonds with Cassie. I think she should know better and keep detached.

How come Cassie comes to Sam and the rest of SG1 when they’re talking in another room. Shouldn’t someone watch her? She could still be a danger. Even though the test came out clear she could be an ally of the Goa’uld. The people of the SGC can’t know. How cuter it looks how more dangerous it can be.

In the next scene Sam bonds some more with Cassie; she trusts Sam and get’s attached even more…so far that she won’t go away from Cassie. It is cute, but I do think that Sam should know better. I know that it in the end all turns out fine with Cassie and she’s not evil…well except for the bomb inside of her…

I am curious how Sam got old those bears and child stuff inside the base that quickly. It is cute to see though that they’ve made the room a bit better looking for Cassie so she can get comfortable.

The drawing Cassie makes is heartbreaking. It shows that she has seen all her people die. That’s so hard to see for a child, I don’t think you can understand on that age why they all die and she didn’t. It’s good that Sam draws herself with Cassie to let her know she isn’t alone anymore.

I just have to laugh at the scene with Jack and Teal’c. Jack trying to explain it…at that time we don’t know yet how smart Jack is and that he can do briefings etc...and perhaps he even listens to Sam's...except for the staring part...

Back to Sam and the rest on earth. Sam wants to leave and Cassie speaks. It’s good to see that she immediately speaks whole sentences and is that “open” to Sam. Not just one word or so for what I expected.

Cassie hurts and Janet doesn’t find it. I find it funny that the next second Cassie collapses while Janet says before it that it could be arrhythmia(sp?). Why does Janet after the heart attack does hear the weird sound and before it doesn’t? It can’t grow that quickly, can it?

Spoilers for tests on elements inside Cassie and Teal'c Jack on the planet

Spoiler:

Why do Sam and Janet do the test in a secure room in the SGC(sub basement) do they already know what to expect? How can they know it was going to be that bad? Is it because Sam knows some of the elements and knows she can expect that? I just find it a bit strange that they do the test so far away instead of close to them when they don’t even know what the two parts do when they come together.

Cut to next scene where Teal’c and Jack find out that there is a Goa’uld ship close to the planet. I find it funny that Nirrti is still there. Why? If she knows that Cassie is of the planet. She can’t do more when Cassie goes through the ‘gate right? And all the others are dead.

When you see Sam in the next scene stand next to Cassie coughing and trying to sleep in bed you almost start to think she’s really Cassie’s mother. She’s almost crying there. She’s attached as can be to Cassie.

Jack wants to take it over from Sam but leaves her. Says something about how much he trusts her. I do think he doesn’t realize how attached Sam got to Cassandra and she doesn’t let go of Cassie.
It gets even hard for Sam when Cassie wakes up and Sam almost starts to cry. Thinking that Cassie is going to blow up while she is conscious. That’s just horrible!

Sam goes with Cassie in the basement and says she has to go on which Cassie replies she promised her to never leave her alone. Ouch! It does go back to S7 and S9 though that when Janet dies and Cassie goes through a hard time Sam is there for Cassie.

Sam does leave her at first. Perhaps finally that military training is partly stepping in, but she can’t go through with it and in the elevator she really starts crying. I find it really heart wrenching and it’s good to see that Sam is going back to Cassie.

Jack gets angry when he notices that Sam goes back down. I do agree with him as military officer he should know better. Even now Sam is ignoring his order. When did Jack lost his command? I think SG1 just listens to him when needed and otherwise not, because even Teal’c and Daniel aren’t leaving. I have to laugh at this a bit. Jack is the leader but on the other hand he isn’t...SG1 just does what they think is right and listen to Jack most of the time, but not when they think his order isn't the correct one...

They wait and Cassie doesn’t die! Sam keeps them nervous for a bit because she doesn’t immediately replies. And Jack even calls her Sam; it says something about that Jack is also attached to Sam. He calls her by her first name.

Now Sam just “knows” about Cassie. It’s really good to see them together and it makes me think that Sam should have taken her or that we at least should have seen Cassie more often in the show!

In the end Cassie gets a dog from Jack. Rofl! It’s really funny considering that he still doesn’t know where Cassie will end up and if a dog is allowed. You could also see it as the happy daddy that gives his daughter a dog.

Then Sam and Jack share a “look”. It’s really cute to see that certainly considering that someone made a picture during that moment and Sam takes that picture 10 years later with her to Atlantis!
Another cute scene when Sam and Cassie go to the swings. It’s good to see that. On the other hand I am missing Janet during this scene, certainly if she is going to get Cassie. I think she should have been there.

Importance for Sam and Jack´s relationship:
I don’t think it doesn’t have that much important because the biggest part of the episode they aren’t even on the same planet but the end is very significant for them, as is the beginning. The beginning of the episode shows us that there is a lot more to the Sam and Jack relationship than we see on screen. They must hang out together because otherwise you don’t know those kind of things. Sam knows something what Daniel, Jack’s best friend, doesn’t know. I just find this interesting because it isn’t one of the first things you talk about with your boss/CO. Perhaps Sam does, but still she does know this of Jack.

Then you have the final few scenes where Sam ignores Jack’s order. I do think that this says something about them. First of that Jack leaves her go with Cassie. He trusts her to do her work correctly; even when it is with a child she has bonded with. Secondly, she ignores his order and stays with Cassie, trusting her own instinct. I think this could perhaps even have been mentioned to Hammond because she is ignoring an order. Jack even says the word. Thirdly and finally Jack says Sam instead of Carter and Captain. I know he says the other two words first but it does say, IMHO something about Sam and Jack together. I think he knows her better than we’re led to believe.

The final scene has Sam and Jack share a cute smile. On its own it is isn’t a lot, but if you think about it that she takes a picture with her of that moment to Atlantis, 10 years later, it must have been an important moment. Perhaps something because it makes them look like a family. Sam, Jack, Cassie and the dog. Ah well…one could imagine something.

*hops out again*

[gater62]

I love how at the beginning Sam is not even phased when Jack uses astronomical terms correctly unlike Daniel. She knows that he is much smarter than he lets on. (that didn't come out right--with his grasp of strategy, the Colonel has to be intelligent, but Carter is not surprised when his intelligence goes beyond the military aspect) What I also caught this time was the fact that she knows he has a telescope on the roof of his house. Either she's been there or they have talked as friends on their love for astronomy! Squee! The building of Jack/Sam friendship.

Ooohh this makes me think of the beginning of A Matter of Time when Jack has Sam explain the wormhole. I'm beginning to think Jack really just wants a little "private" technobabble from Carter. After all, we hear later in Moebius he thinks it's hot!

Here in this episode we see Sam's connection again to kids. I see in a lot of fanfic how kids adore Jack, but I think that the writers really show that Sam really likes children. We see it in the Nox, but really other than knowing that Jack had a son, do we really see his interaction with children so much until we see it at the end of Singularity when Jack brings Cassie the dog? (Well, a little in the Nox)

I do like how Jack takes Sam's request to have someone stay behind seriously. He doesn't dismiss her idea even in sight of the tragedy of the planet.

edit: Hey Teal'c can use a computer!

[Aveo_amacus]

Good points Amy, Jann. Sam doesn't underestimate Jack - she knows he's not stupid.
I like your other point Amy, like we mentioned when discussing BC, there are so many fanfics out there that show Sam has no experience/is bad with kids I think this is another example how out of character that is.