Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Toomi]

I agree, and it's kind of cute, actually, because they don't see it- but we do. In their particular case I think they'd actually try very, very hard not to see it, considering the ramifications.

One of my very favorite of these little moments where we "get it" but they don't is in Shades of Grey when the audience is literally seeing things from Jack's point of view through his binoculars and we watch Sam and only Sam as the team emerges from the stargate where he's waiting for the pick-up to occur. You can just tell he misses her dreadfully- it's such an "awww how cute" moment. He's not even looking at the drop site!

Yes, that is a cute moment. I also liked it in Urgo where (I think, if my memory is right) he knows what Jack feels for Sam.

Is it possible that Jack realises what he feels for Sam before she does? He just burries it deep inside, perhaps because he doesn't think that Sam would want him or he's not good enough for her?

[majorsal]

Here's a comment From one of TPTB, sometime after Divide & Conquer aired:

"After three seasons (that's like three years in SG-time) things necessarily evolve. ... The Sam and Jack thread is not over. In spite of how many may feel, it did not begin with 'Divide and Conquer.' It was subtle, but there much much earlier. It will continue to be there, subtle perhaps, but still there."

It's interesting to me that he had to explain that the S/J thing was present before D & C.

he had to explain it to a certain fan group (i know who they are) because they complained so loudly. the squeakiest wheel and all.

[Coela Bellatore]

I feel so much pressure posting here! Everyone has so many posts and me with my 30ish. I feel like I have to contribute something or fail, ahhhh!

Anyway on the first ship thing, I noticed it in The Broca Divide. The reason was that after watching like 200 seasons of assorted television shows I figured out the basic formula. After the locker room scene and especially after the tank top comment I knew there was going to be ship. I was actually expecting it to come to a head by at least the end of season 2 but they drew it out until season 4 of Atlantis. When a scene like that happens in a television show between two character then they are going to ship somewhere down the line.

[Aveo_amacus]

Yes, that is a cute moment. I also liked it in Urgo where (I think, if my memory is right) he knows what Jack feels for Sam.

Is it possible that Jack realises what he feels for Sam before she does? He just burries it deep inside, perhaps because he doesn't think that Sam would want him or he's not good enough for her?

I think he does realise, another ep like that for me might be ItLoD; I wonder what's going through his head as he's standing there watching Janet and her team try to save her. He certainly seems to wipe his eye - how much more emotion can we see from Jack?! (especially this early on)

Welcome Coela Bellatore!!

[VSS]

Yes, that is a cute moment. I also liked it in Urgo where (I think, if my memory is right) he knows what Jack feels for Sam.

Is it possible that Jack realises what he feels for Sam before she does? He just burries it deep inside, perhaps because he doesn't think that Sam would want him or he's not good enough for her?

I think that his reaction in D&C suggests that he doesn't get it until then. Like he's shocked by the realization whereas Sam seems to already know- and it was great acting to be able to convey all that with no lines at that point! And then she's the one who, again, makes him face it when they are tested, and then she is also the first one to suggest that they leave it in the room, which to me means she's already thought about what she was going to do if it ever came up.

I don't really know about the concept that Jack thinks he's not good enough for her. It's Jack's nature to make little self-deprecating remarks, and it's his nature to be self-sacrificing where the team is concerned but neither one of those things necessarily means he has low self-esteem. I would even go out on a limb (no, really! ) and say it's just a romantic notion that never actually occurs anywhere but in fiction. At any rate, it would imply that he thinks he is good enough for Kerry. I don't know what that would mean, either. That he thinks she's a lesser person than Sam? Maybe.

he had to explain it to a certain fan group (i know who they are) because they complained so loudly. the squeakiest wheel and all.

That gives me hope for us, then! We've been awfully squeaky.

I feel so much pressure posting here! Everyone has so many posts and me with my 30ish. I feel like I have to contribute something or fail, ahhhh!

Anyway on the first ship thing, I noticed it in The Broca Divide. The reason was that after watching like 200 seasons of assorted television shows I figured out the basic formula. After the locker room scene and especially after the tank top comment I knew there was going to be ship. I was actually expecting it to come to a head by at least the end of season 2 but they drew it out until season 4 of Atlantis. When a scene like that happens in a television show between two character then they are going to ship somewhere down the line.

Ah, the practical approach! I love it. There are the in-universe reasons for something to happen, and then there are the practical reasons, and I'm a firm believer in paying attention to the practical ones, too. Because they can write a story any way their little hearts desire, but extraneous needs are sometimes more compelling, and there are patterns that are often predictable, like in this case. That's the only way, for instance, I can make any sense at all out of the fact that we have had no on-screen confirmation in four years. The story would suggest that it should happen, but it hasn't. Why? Due to behind-the-scenes factors. If I hadn't known about those, this ship would have driven me over the edge long ago!

BTW, thanks for dropping by! I thought I was going to have to pester you again.

I think he does realise, another ep like that for me might be ItLoD; I wonder what's going through his head as he's standing there watching Janet and her team try to save her. He certainly seems to wipe his eye - how much more emotion can we see from Jack?! (especially this early on)

Welcome Coela Bellatore!!

Rumor has it RDA's toes got run over by the gurney. Which doesn't matter one bit to me (well, not that I don't care that he got hurt, of course), because if they didn't want that little scene in there, they could have redone the shot or removed it entirely. So I agree that that scene is very important- I would think Jack would, at the very least, be extremely confused by what he was feeling- because as you point out, he is no crybaby.

[KatG]

I think that his reaction in D&C suggests that he doesn't get it until then. Like he's shocked by the realization whereas Sam seems to already know- and it was great acting to be able to convey all that with no lines at that point! And then she's the one who, again, makes him face it when they are tested, and then she is also the first one to suggest that they leave it in the room, which to me means she's already thought about what she was going to do if it ever came up.

That's a very good point. Sam is very practical, she weighs things out to the point of sometimes overthinking a situation. But I think that after 100 days, and the convo with Janet that she realized something was up, watched for signs from Jack, put two and two together and came up with a plan if it ever happened.

If you notice in Upgrades and D&C, in the shield scene, look at Sam's face, she knows what's going on immediately, why Jack won't leave. Jack however is on automatic pilot, and it's only when he stops and looks at Sam, that he realizes what's going on. It's like revelation and then shock. Once they got out though, I think both of them tried to shrug it off as not really happening or just being overly emotional and tried to go back to their normal way of doing things.

I don't really know about the concept that Jack thinks he's not good enough for her. It's Jack's nature to make little self-deprecating remarks, and it's his nature to be self-sacrificing where the team is concerned but neither one of those things necessarily means he has low self-esteem. I would even go out on a limb (no, really! ) and say it's just a romantic notion that never actually occurs anywhere but in fiction. At any rate, it would imply that he thinks he is good enough for Kerry. I don't know what that would mean, either. That he thinks she's a lesser person than Sam? Maybe.

I never bought into the Jack feeling that he wasn't good enough for Sam. I think it's more that he knows what she's had to go through to get where she is in her career, he knows how difficult it can be for a woman in the military and that people talk. I think he just doesn't want to do anything that will cause people to question whether Sam got where she was by her own merits or if she, for want of a better phrase, "slept her way up the ranks".

[Aveo_amacus]

I think that his reaction in D&C suggests that he doesn't get it until then. Like he's shocked by the realization whereas Sam seems to already know- and it was great acting to be able to convey all that with no lines at that point! And then she's the one who, again, makes him face it when they are tested, and then she is also the first one to suggest that they leave it in the room, which to me means she's already thought about what she was going to do if it ever came up.

I'm sure Sam did think it over, remember what we see in D&C doesn't happen in D&C rather in Upgrades and they have at least one more mission in between these two eps, so I wouldn't be surprised by Sam thinking about it during this time, even if she only just realised during upgrades.
The important thing for me with Jack's reaction is not that he's realising that *he* loves her, for me he's already well aware of this; for me it's the fact that she loves him back. He may have been aware of her hero-worship of early on but I don't think he knew she loved him at the forcefield.
For Sam I don't think she was realising she loved him either, I'd need to rewatch before I comment on whether I think she knew about Jack's feelings, although if memory serves she seemed less surprised but I don't really remember.

[VSS]

Hathor

Favorite Quote:
Sam: It’s a miracle!
Jack: It’s crunches

Favorite scene: When Hathor tries to kill Jack with the hand device, and Sam unloads the entire clip at her. It’s overkill, as if Sam wants this woman really dead.

Banner by Achaja

You definitely have to hand it to the goa’uld. They know how to pick attractive hosts. I am not a huge fan of the whole goa’uld concept, but it’s an interesting combination of beautiful people possessed by repulsive, evil snakes. Just in case we didn’t already know they’re the bad guys! And, as cheesy as this is they’re its quite a bit more interesting than some later villains. Even with bad guys you can’t overlook the eye candy as an integral and appealing part of the episode. And that’s pretty much all this episode was, although it had the potential to be more, but the writers just didn’t want to go there, I guess. There should have been more angst- Sam and Janet were betrayed and locked up by their colleagues and close friends- Daniel was raped- Jack almost made into a Jaffa- General Hammond was duped. None of this is examined in any depth whatsoever, or even acted with much feeling, and they gloss over it by making the men magically forget in the end.

Hathor, like the beginning of Brief Candle, seems like someone’s idea of a male fantasy. But this episode is considerably creepier, with Jack almost becoming a Jaffa and Daniel contributing his DNA (I couldn’t decide whether to laugh or cringe when Hathor said she needed his “juices”.) Why, in 10 years, is Sam never seduced by an alien? Hathor literally wants the men’s bodies, Laira and Niirti more or less do, too. Kynthia is a little bit better in this regard but it seems pretty clear that the main theme for the men is sex with an alien- for Sam it’s more like romance with an alien. Why? Is there any doubt that if Jack or Daniel had been captured and traded to an Amazon queen that she’d have had her way with him, not challenged him to a knife fight like Sam in Emancipation?

Anyway, Janet has a chance to shine in this episode. I think they had another opportunity to do something with Sam and her potential problems with being a woman in the military, but didn’t. In fact, Janet sticks up for the Air Force by saying they have more women than the other branches of the military, which (I think) is true. I wonder if it was the series’ close ties to the USAF that made them avoid this topic?

Two things I noticed is that early on, it’s evident that Jack only had a jacket on with no t-shirt, and Sam had that flight suit, again, with no shirt. Interesting subtle suggestion, there. In fact, I've seen that screen cap where he pats her on the shoulder used in a shippy way- but in the actual scene it was quite unshippy, IMHO. It was noticeable how Jack treated her just as he would any other airman. There was absolutely none of that attraction that is seen in the other early episodes, which just goes to show you how incredibly important the acting and the actors’ chemistry is to this ship. Only at the very end, when Jack congratulates her on the commendation do we see any kind of affection.

In the end, why did Jack let Hathor go, then act like he forgot? He should have remembered everything since being in the sarcophagus. That made no sense.
I don’t think that we ever see another episode that treats potentially disturbing events quite so superficially as Hathor did. I don’t think they’d have done it like this in subsequent seasons.

Importance for Sam and Jack’s relationship: I think that the total absence of any UST between them in this episode is important for the audience, to provide a contrast with what they’re like the rest of the time. In case we hadn’t noticed.

[josiane]

I agree, and it's kind of cute, actually, because they don't see it- but we do. In their particular case I think they'd actually try very, very hard not to see it, considering the ramifications.

One of my very favorite of these little moments where we "get it" but they don't is in Shades of Grey when the audience is literally seeing things from Jack's point of view through his binoculars and we watch Sam and only Sam as the team emerges from the stargate where he's waiting for the pick-up to occur. You can just tell he misses her dreadfully- it's such an "awww how cute" moment. He's not even looking at the drop site!

That's a great moment, and not often used as evidence in this way, but you're absolutely right. The question about when they knew is every bit as interesting as when the feelings developed. For Sam we quite clearly see she knows by 100 days, but it's not so clear for Jack or even when Sam does know before that point. Although they had to both have been thinking it after PoV if not before.

As for when they knew that the other knew, well...

I'm sure Sam did think it over, remember what we see in D&C doesn't happen in D&C rather in Upgrades and they have at least one more mission in between these two eps, so I wouldn't be surprised by Sam thinking about it during this time, even if she only just realised during upgrades.
The important thing for me with Jack's reaction is not that he's realising that *he* loves her, for me he's already well aware of this; for me it's the fact that she loves him back. He may have been aware of her hero-worship of early on but I don't think he knew she loved him at the forcefield.
For Sam I don't think she was realising she loved him either, I'd need to rewatch before I comment on whether I think she knew about Jack's feelings, although if memory serves she seemed less surprised but I don't really remember.

... I'm with Aveo here, that the revelation at the forceshield was the revelation not of their own feelings, but of the depth of the other's and the potential consequences of these feelings.

Hathor

Spoiler:

Favorite Quote:
Sam: It’s a miracle!
Jack: It’s crunches

Favorite scene: When Hathor tries to kill Jack with the hand device, and Sam unloads the entire clip at her. It’s overkill, as if Sam wants this woman really dead.

Banner by Achaja

You definitely have to hand it to the goa’uld. They know how to pick attractive hosts. I am not a huge fan of the whole goa’uld concept, but it’s an interesting combination of beautiful people possessed by repulsive, evil snakes. Just in case we didn’t already know they’re the bad guys! And, as cheesy as this is they’re its quite a bit more interesting than some later villains. Even with bad guys you can’t overlook the eye candy as an integral and appealing part of the episode. And that’s pretty much all this episode was, although it had the potential to be more, but the writers just didn’t want to go there, I guess. There should have been more angst- Sam and Janet were betrayed and locked up by their colleagues and close friends- Daniel was raped- Jack almost made into a Jaffa- General Hammond was duped. None of this is examined in any depth whatsoever, or even acted with much feeling, and they gloss over it by making the men magically forget in the end.

Hathor, like the beginning of Brief Candle, seems like someone’s idea of a male fantasy. But this episode is considerably creepier, with Jack almost becoming a Jaffa and Daniel contributing his DNA (I couldn’t decide whether to laugh or cringe when Hathor said she needed his “juices”.) Why, in 10 years, is Sam never seduced by an alien? Hathor literally wants the men’s bodies, Laira and Niirti more or less do, too. Kynthia is a little bit better in this regard but it seems pretty clear that the main theme for the men is sex with an alien- for Sam it’s more like romance with an alien. Why? Is there any doubt that if Jack or Daniel had been captured and traded to an Amazon queen that she’d have had her way with him, not challenged him to a knife fight like Sam in Emancipation?

Anyway, Janet has a chance to shine in this episode. I think they had another opportunity to do something with Sam and her potential problems with being a woman in the military, but didn’t. In fact, Janet sticks up for the Air Force by saying they have more women than the other branches of the military, which (I think) is true. I wonder if it was the series’ close ties to the USAF that made them avoid this topic?

Two things I noticed is that early on, it’s evident that Jack only had a jacket on with no t-shirt, and Sam had that flight suit, again, with no shirt. Interesting subtle suggestion, there. In fact, I've seen that screen cap where he pats her on the shoulder used in a shippy way- but in the actual scene it was quite unshippy, IMHO. It was noticeable how Jack treated her just as he would any other airman. There was absolutely none of that attraction that is seen in the other early episodes, which just goes to show you how incredibly important the acting and the actors’ chemistry is to this ship. Only at the very end, when Jack congratulates her on the commendation do we see any kind of affection.

In the end, why did Jack let Hathor go, then act like he forgot? He should have remembered everything since being in the sarcophagus. That made no sense.
I don’t think that we ever see another episode that treats potentially disturbing events quite so superficially as Hathor did. I don’t think they’d have done it like this in subsequent seasons.

Importance for Sam and Jack’s relationship: I think that the total absence of any UST between them in this episode is important for the audience, to provide a contrast with what they’re like the rest of the time. In case we hadn’t noticed.

I agree with you, I don't like Hathor much either. Like Brief Candle, it leaves a rather unpleasant taste, when such serious issues are glossed over (plus the Hathor babies thing, ewww, even more ick there than Jack and Kynthia ). I do like how Janet and Sam (but particularly Janet) get to shine here, but otherwise there's really not that much to recommend it tbh!

[gater62]

(snipped)
I never bought into the Jack feeling that he wasn't good enough for Sam. I think it's more that he knows what she's had to go through to get where she is in her career, he knows how difficult it can be for a woman in the military and that people talk. I think he just doesn't want to do anything that will cause people to question whether Sam got where she was by her own merits or if she, for want of a better phrase, "slept her way up the ranks".

I think this is a great synopsis on Jack! People gossip in the military just as much as everywhere else and so it would be important for Jack to protect Sam's career as she certainly deserves all the recognition she gets and even more.

I also think Jack is aware of all the baggage he brings to the relationship. I think this is very different from thinking he's not good enough for her. While he seems to have worked through his Iraqi prison time and even Charlie's death (somewhat), I think he realizes that it still does weigh him down at times.

[VSS]

I also think Jack is aware of all the baggage he brings to the relationship. I think this is very different from thinking he's not good enough for her. While he seems to have worked through his Iraqi prison time and even Charlie's death (somewhat), I think he realizes that it still does weigh him down at times.

That's a great way to put it, and brings to mind this little exchange from The First Commandment:

CARTER: I had the chance to end this, Colonel, he literally asked me to do it.

O'NEILL: Killing a man is no badge of honor, captain.

CARTER: I know.

O'NEILL: Look, I'm no expert on this thing. (He waves the Bible Hanson had.) I generally read one commandment, and I think it's the first.

CARTER: "I am the Lord your God, and you shall take no other God's before me?"

O'NEILL: Okay, so it's not the first one. I'm talking about the No Killing one. No matter what the reason, every time you break it, you take one step closer to Hanson. (Sam nods. )

Considering Jack was in Special Forces just like Hanson, and probably for much longer, I think that says quite a lot about the baggage he thinks he has.

[Petra]

I think that his reaction in D&C suggests that he doesn't get it until then. Like he's shocked by the realization whereas Sam seems to already know- and it was great acting to be able to convey all that with no lines at that point! And then she's the one who, again, makes him face it when they are tested, and then she is also the first one to suggest that they leave it in the room, which to me means she's already thought about what she was going to do if it ever came up.

That's my take on it as well.

I don't really know about the concept that Jack thinks he's not good enough for her. It's Jack's nature to make little self-deprecating remarks, and it's his nature to be self-sacrificing where the team is concerned but neither one of those things necessarily means he has low self-esteem. I would even go out on a limb (no, really! ) and say it's just a romantic notion that never actually occurs anywhere but in fiction. At any rate, it would imply that he thinks he is good enough for Kerry. I don't know what that would mean, either. That he thinks she's a lesser person than Sam? Maybe.

I agree. Although I can see where fanfic writers got this idea, IMO it's just another example of fanon having little to do with canon.
Besides, as you've pointed out, it would be very unfair to Kerry and I hate to think Jack would settle down with someone who he considers "lesser" in whatever capacity. It would be OOC for him. Plus I really liked Kerry.

HATHOR

To my chagrin I don't have much to contribute I must say however that I do like this episode, which really makes no sense because I also agree with everything you guys wrote about its mistakes. Objectively it's really bad, but there's something in it which still makes me like it and rewatch quite often.
Right now I'm going to blame it totally on how hot and handsome Jack is in it and "the crunches scene" which I absolutely adore.

Come to think about it, I probably like it because of its humour and team moments. I love the scene where Jack, Daniel and Hammond first meet Hathor ("sex, drugs & rock'n'roll") or when Jack talks about his neighbour with "the little devils in her hair" (and Sam's reaction; she can't quite hide her amusement) or when Sam ignores Hammond's orders and appeals to Jack directly - it shows how much she already respects him and values his opinion. And did I mention how hot Jack is in this one?

[Toomi]

I think this is a great synopsis on Jack! People gossip in the military just as much as everywhere else and so it would be important for Jack to protect Sam's career as she certainly deserves all the recognition she gets and even more.

I also think Jack is aware of all the baggage he brings to the relationship. I think this is very different from thinking he's not good enough for her. While he seems to have worked through his Iraqi prison time and even Charlie's death (somewhat), I think he realizes that it still does weigh him down at times.

That's what I was trying to say when I said he didn't feel he was good enough for Sam. I just couldn't think of the right words. Thanks

[VSS]

Season 2 Shipper Rewatch schedule:
May 18 The Serpent’s Lair
May 20 In the Line of Duty
May 22 Prisoners
May 27 The Gamekeeper
May 29 Need
May 29 Thor’s Chariot
June 2 Message in a Bottle
June 3 Family
June 5 Secrets
June 8 Bane
June 10 The Tok’ra Part 1
June 12 The Tok’ra Part 2
June 15 Spirits
June 17 Touchstone
June 19 The Fifth Race
June 22 A Matter of Time
June 24 Holiday
June 26 Serpent’s Song
June 29 One False Step
July 2 Show and Tell
July 6 1969
July 8 Out of Mind

For shippers in the US, Season 2 is now available on hulu.com
Also, if anyone want to help with writing up the episodes, let me know! And huge thanks to the denizens of the Art Thread for the banners.

[Aveo_amacus]

Great summary VSS.
I agree with you on the lack of UST. I don't know if I'm reading too much into it, but do you think that the lack of UST could be attributed to Hathor and her pink sex-drug?? She seems a bit taken aback by Sam and says "you're an exceptionally beautiful woman" could that be that she's worried that a beautiful woman could undermine her affect on the male personnel? Could the lack of UST between Jack and Sam be affected by Hathor's drug, making Jack less (not sure of the right word here) receptive to Sam in this ep?

On the other aspects of this ep, I agree some of the emotional side-effects of this ep aren't discussed but I do like the roles Janet and Sam get to have in this ep
(plus I like the scene where Sam takes down Hammond
Yeah, my career is over
:janet: don't worry I can fix him up as good as new when this is over
great, so he can bring me up on charges)