Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Rac80]

Yes, that's what I mean. I don't see Jack, but just some random old man. (with long hair )

LOL the long hair is an issue eh?

You do wonder why they don't send some "comforts" through to jack, a more comfortable chair, some beer, and yes, even scissors.

[KatG]

Great discussion going on here guys.

I don't know I'd say because he has a fan.... Perhaps it's just me hoping that he wouldn't just eat something strange coz a pretty woman flirted with him. I like to think that he ate it to try and not offend the locals?



[COLOR="blue"]I always thought it was rape, he was drugged and taken advantage of. If that happened to a woman at a bar, it would be rape.... However, part of my rational mind states that he was not aware of their culture, and Kynthia wasn't aware that he had no idea what he was agreeing to when he ate the cake. Perhaps that's the normal ritual for their culture?

I agree Jack was trying not to offend. And I don't think Kynthia had any idea that he didn't know what was going on, nor did she have any reason too. Apparently it was a typical "marriage" in their culture. It was still rape in a sense, but I don't believe it was intentional.

Spoiler:

Was it really the right thing for Jack to have told the people their god was false and they were lab rats? After all, they were happy and healthy. I think he regretted it, but in the end was interfering in their culture the right thing to do? I definitely think that it wasn’t necessarily the best thing for the SGC to undo everything that had been done, at least so quickly. Would the Chosen Ones really have been so happy with all the new knowledge and the changes?

Maybe they did move a little fast, but then again, they only had 100 days, not alot of time to set things straight.

There again, how much interference is to much/to little. If he had left them alone and not told them, they would have continued on happy but only living 100 days. This was somthing imposed on them by a gould. Should it have been allowed to continue, or should they have the right to grow old like everyone else? It's a good moral question. Not sure what the answer is.

O'NEILL: Sweet Kynthia, I've learned so much from you. I'll treasure every day of my life, because of you.

Oh, please.

I agree. Kind of a gag me moment.

Oh, I've never thought that! Do the authors use it as the rationale why Sam didn't seem to want to have kids? If you think about the baby there, Nefreyu in The Nox, Cassie, her enthusiasm in CotG about being an auntie, I've always thought she'd be great with kids.

I guess I've always felt that she simply wouldn't be able to devote her life to her work and a child, too. And Jack. There just isn't enough of her to go around. And if there's one thing Sam wants, it's to do things right!

I've always wondered where people get the idea Teal'c would be great with kids. I see that from time to time and I think it's a fun juxtaposition, but unlikely.

Oh, that's another good one.
In Affinity, she makes that comment about dropping the baby off at daycare before going to the Crab Nebulae. I think that's what really bothered her. Not the idea of a baby itself. Which is kind of sad, considering how Jack clearly loves kids.

And how unfortunate for humanity! Those are some pretty great genes eliminated from the pool.

I was thinking about what she said in Affinity too. Sam is very much an all or nothing person. Remember in Singularity also, when Teal'c indicated that she might want to keep Cassie herself, she mentioned that Cassie needed to be with someone who was around more often (or something like that). I think maybe her experience as an Air Force brat, having her dad gone for long periods of time, especially after she lost her mother would influence that as well.

BC--
I never saw "old jack" in brief candle as OOC, remember he is not truly "old" ...just a few days have passed.... but his body is failing him at an alarming rate... I am sure that was incredibly unsettling to man like him. when he finally normally ages he will remain the jack we all know and love.

I agree. Jack was thrown for a loop. He likes to be in control and he wasn't in control at all. He probably didn't feel real good either as the effects of old age made themselves known on his body. Under those circumstances, I feel that he was pretty much in character. Except for his waxing eloquent with Kynthia - so not Jack.

thors hammer-
I agreed with col aga about WHY jack had daniel destroy the hammer, he had to know daniel would follow orders and allow daniel to make a tough decision for himself. when Teal'c has to kill Shau're to save daniel later on, daniel is able to forgive him for it. I think the time between the two incidents allowed daniel to learn to trust his team.

That's the sense I get too. Daniel had to prove that he was a team player. It also as someone mentioned, kept Daniel from being able to say Jack destroyed any chance for Sha're to be separated from the gould.

the nox-
I liked the softer side of sam we saw with nefrayu, too often in later seasons I see her treated as if she were totally asexual. in this ep we saw jack being accepting of her softer side.

I loved Sam and Nefreyu. I liked the little interchange between Jack and Sam regarding him too.

[VSS]

LOL the long hair is an issue eh?

You do wonder why they don't send some "comforts" through to jack, a more comfortable chair, some beer, and yes, even scissors.

That's why I like that little scene with him watching the video, then rewinding it. He doesn't have many comforts at this point. I wonder if he still had that box of photos from CL or would anyone think to send it?

I was thinking about what she said in Affinity too. Sam is very much an all or nothing person. Remember in Singularity also, when Teal'c indicated that she might want to keep Cassie herself, she mentioned that Cassie needed to be with someone who was around more often (or something like that). I think maybe her experience as an Air Force brat, having her dad gone for long periods of time, especially after she lost her mother would influence that as well.

Welcome KatG!
These are both really good bits that I had forgotten. So yes, I definitely would think she wouldn't want any children as long as she's traipsing around the universe. I guess we'll save the discussion of why she's traipsing around the universe for another day.

This was somthing imposed on them by a gould. Should it have been allowed to continue, or should they have the right to grow old like everyone else? It's a good moral question. Not sure what the answer is.

Here's another problem I had- they should have gotten old, unless they just went like lemmings into the sea!

I agree. Jack was thrown for a loop. He likes to be in control and he wasn't in control at all. He probably didn't feel real good either as the effects of old age made themselves known on his body. Under those circumstances, I feel that he was pretty much in character. Except for his waxing eloquent with Kynthia - so not Jack.

Is rapid old age worse than any other of the diseases or life-threatening situations that he's been in? Really, it's just another way of dying, isn't it? Or is there something different about it because it really will happen one day?


Oh, I also wanted to post an answer to the question I had about post-pharaohnic human cultures populating the universe.

Spoiler:

My kid was watching Demons (he's ripping through this rewatch much faster than I am) and I caught the bit where Daniel explains how cultures after the Egyptians were taken out through the Antarctic gate. So, for the Vikings and Mongols that we've seen, that would be their explanation, too. It's just that I wish someone on the series would have said "Hey, where'd these guys come from?" and then had the answer be "Through the Antarctic gate" later on after Solitudes. But, a retroactive explanation is okay, especially one that works! I do think that no goa'uld was ever really able to get a real toehold on earth again. They just came in and snatched a few people at a time, I think.

[Aveo_amacus]

Oh, I also wanted to post an answer to the question I had about post-pharaohnic human cultures populating the universe.

Spoiler:

My kid was watching Demons (he's ripping through this rewatch much faster than I am) and I caught the bit where Daniel explains how cultures after the Egyptians were taken out through the Antarctic gate. So, for the Vikings and Mongols that we've seen, that would be their explanation, too. It's just that I wish someone on the series would have said "Hey, where'd these guys come from?" and then had the answer be "Through the Antarctic gate" later on after Solitudes. But, a retroactive explanation is okay, especially one that works! I do think that no goa'uld was ever really able to get a real toehold on earth again. They just came in and snatched a few people at a time, I think.

Spoiler:

Also, iirc Ra was pretty powerful even compared to the other system lords, if he'd been shoved out of Egypt and by extension the rest of earth by some lowly slaves he might have fought to prevent others going back there and making him look like a fool. Might explain why only a few were kidnapped though the Antarctic gate rather than the goa'uld coming in ships, and why the earth/tauri was 'lost'.

[KatG]

Welcome KatG!

{snip}

Is rapid old age worse than any other of the diseases or life-threatening situations that he's been in? Really, it's just another way of dying, isn't it? Or is there something different about it because it really will happen one day?

Thanks for the welcome. Glad to be here.

Rapid old aging is basically a wasting disease, similar to cancer. I don't think Jack would have responded well to that either. It's not something he can control. Risking his life in battle or on missions still gives him some sort of control. Also, at the rate he was aging, he wouldn't even have 100 days. Maybe a week or two at most. Him being crotchety and grumpy and raging at the world is totally understandable to me in that case.

[Maine_Girl]

It seems to me that season 1 is full of sc-fi cliches and finding out more about the 4 people who make up SG-1. It's not surprising that they occasionally seem OOC when compared to the fully developed characters in the later seasons.

It sometimes feels like they had a checklist of situations that had to be addressed in season 1. I think I read somewhere that the series got a pickup for 4 seasons somewhere during the production of season 1. That committment allowed the writers to start developing some more additional story arcs for the team beyond the cliche checklist.

There are only a couple of episodes from season 1 that I regularly re-watch and they are from the last part of the seasons

[VSS]

It seems to me that season 1 is full of sc-fi cliches and finding out more about the 4 people who make up SG-1. It's not surprising that they occasionally seem OOC when compared to the fully developed characters in the later seasons.

It sometimes feels like they had a checklist of situations that had to be addressed in season 1. I think I read somewhere that the series got a pickup for 4 seasons somewhere during the production of season 1. That committment allowed the writers to start developing some more additional story arcs for the team beyond the cliche checklist.

There are only a couple of episodes from season 1 that I regularly re-watch and they are from the last part of the seasons

From what I've read, it's not too uncommon for people to advise new fans to kind of stick it out through season one, because it gets better! And I totally agree with you. What's really amazing to me is that they did get the go-ahead for 4 seasons. That's darn rare these days, and I wonder if that isn't the reason why they were able to do much better in terms of character development later on as opposed to,say, SGA.

BTW, thanks for delurking, and I hope that you will chip in more later as the season gets better. Solitudes is in my top 5 favorite eps, and I always think of that one as sort of the pinnacle of early-season writing. So they definitely had it in them even early on.

[VSS]

Torment of Tantalus

Favorite quote: (This just about sums up Daniel’s and Jack’s world views):

DANIEL: This could be the key to understanding our existence. Everyone, everything's existence.
ERNEST: The collaboration of these four alien species.
O'NEILL: None of which would mean squat, if we don't get out of here.

Favorite scene: In the very beginning, when Daniel and Jack are looking at the tape. I’m sorry I’m so shallow, but they really are handsome.

Thanks, Oma!

This is the first real Daniel episode we’ve seen, and I think that the title isn’t only meant to apply to Ernest, but also Daniel. His entire career seems to be spent balancing practical needs of others against the pull of pure knowledge.

Spoiler:

I really love the character of Katherine Langford. This is a different actress than in the movie, but the character is very similar. She’d be about 73 or 74, and Ernest pushing 80, but still sharp as a tacks.

It surprised me a little that they chose to portray Katherine’s father as not thinking she was capable of being a scientist. Considering he took her all over Egypt as a girl, I find this odd. Was that a reason contrived by the authors for the sole purpose of keeping Katherine out of her dad’s lab?

The first meeting with Ernest is touching and humorous at the same time. Sam definitely isn’t interested in having a little old naked man hugging her, and far from it being the joyful reunion we anticipate, Katherine and Ernest don’t exactly fall into each other’s arms. At first he thinks she’s a hallucination, and then she expresses the opinion that he chose the stargate over her. I personally think that’s a false choice, but I might be missing something. Why does Katherine feel that way? As Daniel said, he probably didn’t think he’d die or he wouldn’t have gone.

I think it’s more of a real dilemma for Jack and Sam, obviously because of the nonfrat rules but then there’re the demands and dangers of the work itself. A few pages ago, col aga posited the theory that perhaps it wasn’t Jack’s divorce that drove him to be involved in the SGC, but the other way around. Perhaps, to a certain extent, it was the nature of the work that was in the back of both Jack and Sam’s minds when they thought about being involved with each other, though I am not sure why I believe this. Certainly, those teams have a high mortality rate. But is there something else that would make me wonder? I don’t remember.

Spoiler:

So then we see the meeting hall and are introduced to the concept of the four great races. The writers of this ep made a glaring error, though. They said the elements are idenfied by the number of electrons. They’re not. It’s the number of protons. I find this highly ironic since in that very scene Katherine mentions high school chemistry- looks like the writers forgot theirs! Nevertheless, the idea of a common language based on the elements is a cool concept.

Not much going on in this episode for Jack and Sam. We get the basic Sam the scientist and Jack the soldier and not much more. Previously, we discussed the differences between Sam and Daniel’s view on science, and this episode highlights that quite a bit. Sam focuses on results and Daniel just wants to learn for learning’s sake. And you can darn well bet that Sam knows the elements better than Daniel does, but she never makes it down to see the meeting room. But, as Jack points out, discovering the secrets of the universe doesn’t mean much if you can’t share it with someone else. I have to admit, I do miss the idealist Daniel used to be. As the series goes on, it seems as if he's the only one for which life ultimately doesn't get better. In many ways, although he'd Jack's main cheerleader, he ends up trading places with Jack in terms of attitude, I think.

Implications for Sam and Jack: This ep highlights how much alike they actually are. For all the differences in personality that people like to focus on, they do have quite a bit in common, starting with the fact that they’re both Air Force officers and enjoy working in the field. Which is really quite a lot in the grand scheme of things.

This ep also brings up the question of choosing one's work over personal life, which is a theme all of the team members have to work through to one degree or another. Obviously, it's a very big problem for Sam and Jack, since in the current setting they truly are mutually exclusive, if that personal life is going to involve each other.

[Aveo_amacus]

It seems to me that season 1 is full of sc-fi cliches and finding out more about the 4 people who make up SG-1. It's not surprising that they occasionally seem OOC when compared to the fully developed characters in the later seasons.

It sometimes feels like they had a checklist of situations that had to be addressed in season 1. I think I read somewhere that the series got a pickup for 4 seasons somewhere during the production of season 1. That committment allowed the writers to start developing some more additional story arcs for the team beyond the cliche checklist.

There are only a couple of episodes from season 1 that I regularly re-watch and they are from the last part of the seasons

It's almost as if there are certain story rites of passage that they need to do to prove their authenticity to the sci-fi genre and due to them having 2 season straight off and the next 2 confirmed later, they didn't mind lol

[Rac80]

Oh I love torment of tantalus too. Hubby is a chemist and you hould have heard him snort and laugh over that "electron" line.

Spoiler:

Katharine's father dragging her all over Egypt and then not thinking of her a scientist did not surprise me, he seemed to see her as an appendage to his life only. (as was common at the time and among that class of men. ) At that time in history, it was not uncommon for wives and daughters to be exposed to archeaology (and other fields of study)but not considered intelligent enough to "understand" it.
I think she may never have forgiven Ernest for "dying" in the first place. We do know she got past that since in "there but for the grace of god" daniel refers to Katharine and ernest being married and enjoying retirement together.

I must agree with you VSS... Daniel and Jack are very handsome.

[VSS]

Oh I love torment of tantalus too. Hubby is a chemist and you hould have heard him snort and laugh over that "electron" line.

Spoiler:

Katharine's father dragging her all over Egypt and then not thinking of her a scientist did not surprise me, he seemed to see her as an appendage to his life only. (as was common at the time and among that class of men. ) At that time in history, it was not uncommon for wives and daughters to be exposed to archeaology (and other fields of study)but not considered intelligent enough to "understand" it.
I think she may never have forgiven Ernest for "dying" in the first place. We do know she got past that since in "there but for the grace of god" daniel refers to Katharine and ernest being married and enjoying retirement together.

I must agree with you VSS... Daniel and Jack are very handsome.

Women and education

Spoiler:

That sounds reasonable to me. It's not unlike raising girls to play the piano, cook, and paint but all the famous musicians, chefs and artists are men! The fathers wanted them refined and educated but not more so than themselves!

[KatG]

I probably should know this, but why are you using spoilers in this thread? All of SG-1 has aired a long time ago hasn't it? Or is there some other reason. Just want to make sure I follow protocol.

Will post my thoughts on Torment of Tantalus tomorrow, when my thoughts are clearer.

[Toomi]

Hi KatG

I think we're using spoilers as it's a S/J discussion thread and we've been spoilering stuff that's not on topic. I think that's it but I could be very very wrong

[Toomi]

Bloodlines


banner by Aveo Amacus

Fave Quote:

Jack: We'll just have to cross that bridge when we come to it.
Bra'tac: No, the bridge is too well guarded.
Jack: Actually, I was using a cliche....(trails off)

Fave Scene: When Jack finds out Bra'tac is over 100 years old and goes to help him up. Bra'tac throws him to the ground.

The episode opens with a nightmare of Teal'c's, seeing Ry'ac becomming a Jaffa. Quickly we realise it is not real and he's having some sort of procedure done on him by Janet, with the rest of SG-1 watching from the observation room. To me this shows that they're starting to be together on the base, friendships are forming and becomming stronger.

When Teal'c admits to Jack that he has a family, Jack sinks his head into his hands, frustrated and a little angry. Teal'c swore to them that he had no ties back on Chulak, and lied about it. Teal'c states that he did not want his family to become a 'tool' that an enemy could use against him.

Is it possible that Jack is angry partly because Teal'c left his family? Jack, while he didn't travel to another planet, must've left his family regularly for his work, depending on what assignment he was given. While he never mentions it, does he regret not being there more? Is this past hurt fueling his initial anger towards Teal'c?

Do you think that Jack is perhaps angry at Teal'c because he left his son behind? Is Jack able to put his personal feelings about his own son behind him in order to deal with this?

In the briefing they discuss going to Chulak to get Goa'uld larvae for study and Hammond knows Jack is hiding something. He pulls him into the office where Jack tells Hammond what Teal'c's secret.

Teal'c tries to leave and Hammond won't allow him. He states that Teal'c knows too much about the facility, their missions etc to be allowed to leave. Why does Hammond allow Teal'c to leave with SG-1? Is it purely to rescue Teal'c's son? Or does Hammond want the symbiotes? Is it possible that Hammond does it so he won't lose Teal'c as a part of the SGC?

When they have hidden their costumes we see Sam with a P-90 but not Jack or Daniel.

Teal'c goes down onto his knees when he sees the mark on his house. He explains to the rest of SG-1 that it's the mark of a traitor and with the house appearing burned and damaged, Teal'c assumes his family is dead.

Bra'tac makes his first appearence and informs Teal'c that his family is alive.

Bra'tac immediatly dismisses the rest of SG-1, making light of the fact Sam is a woman and noticing that Daniel is weak (commenting that he could snap him like kindling) He pretty much ignores Jack until he speaks up.

They have a little tiff with Bra'tac's staff weapon and Bra'tac seems to have some respect for them once Jack defeats him momentarily.

Jack asks Sam and Daniel to head back to the gate and asks them to lay down cover fire if needed, and stay by the gate. Sam immediatly recognizes she's been given an order, Daniel questions it. They head off, while Jack heads out with Bra'tac and Teal'c.

Sam and Daniel in the forest. Sam feels sorry for Teal'c having to keep his family quiet. Considering that Jack also kept his family quiet (or just never talked about it) and that Daniel has probably not said anything about his family, why is she suprised? I think thus far, Sam may be the only one that has volunteered information about her family thus far.

Drey'ac is furious with Teal'c for killing the priest and disrupting the ceremony. She explains to him that because he deserted she is an outcast and the lowest of them all, because he is a traitor. Teal'c is angry to find out that his son thinks he's dead, but his mother told him that so he wouldn't wonder what happened to his father.

After discovering Rya'c is ill, Teal'c gives him his symbiote. Fortunatly Daniel and Sam have already stolen a symbiote so Teal'c can survive.

Teal'c stops the rest of SG-1 jumping into the fight at the gate. Why? Would it insult Bra'tac? By helping SG-1 escape Bra'tac has become a traitor, even though he was hoping/planning for this for a long time (as we discover later) but with no witnesses he can resume his position within the Jaffa.

Overall, I liked this episode as it gives an insight to Teal'c's life, what he left behind, and the sacrifices he has made to fight for what he believes in. I liked Bra'tac at the first meeting, and continued to enjoy his character throughout the series.

Implications for Sam and Jack: Really, none that I can see. It's a Teal'c centric episode and Sam and Jack spend most of the episode sepearated. It does show that the group is becomming a team in more than just a word. They are together when Janet is experimenting with Teal'c and the symbiote, and want to go help Teal'c's son.

Spoiler:

Daniel wears his watch in his left wrist, Sam on her right. Is MS left handed?

[gater62]

Watch

Spoiler:

I'm right handed and wear my watch on my left wrist. Maybe Sam's the one who's left handed???