Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[VSS]

Hi shippers-
Toomi will be posting the write-up on The First Commandment at 1700 EST.

Just so you know we haven't forgotten!

[digitalred93]

Reading everyone's discussion about the Sam/Teal'c 'thing' on Unending. I honestly didn't pick up on there being anything other than sibling affection until I got online and read commentaries, forum posts, etc. At the end of the day, I still can't buy it. Maybe the actors wanted to play with it but I don't see their hookup as canon.

If I'm wrong, and there's a particular moment in the episode that clearly shows these two getting together, someone please enlighten me.

Now conversely, and yes, this may sound dumb, but when Sam plays the Cello, I get the distinct sense she's thinking of Jack. Can't explain why but then, that's just my own personal little bit of fanon -- nothing written in concrete.

And yet, I can dream, right?

[Toomi]

First Commandment


Banner by Josiane

Fave Quote:

Daniel: It tastes like chicken.
Sam: Then what's wrong with it?
Daniel: It's maccaroni and cheese.

Fave Scene: The scene at the end between Sam and Jack.

God complex mentionned in Broca Divide, and seen in COTG. When they go through the gate they are assumed to be gods and so far have encounted this a few times on the show, but assuming they have more missions in between, they've encountered this many times. Given that the Goa'uld are usually the ones at this point using the gate system, it's a pretty safe assumption by the populations of the various planets. However, not something that the teams seem to enjoy. It was only time before someone got caught up in it, and Jonas seemed to be a prime candidate.

Teal'c mentiones terraforming by Goa'uld, that many worlds were terraformed. That would be a technology we could easily use given the rate we are destroying our own.

O'Neill tries to send Carter back with Conners. Jack knows Sam's background history with Hansen. I don't think that would be in a file so he would have to do some serious checking up on Sam before this point.

We see their camp for the evening, complete with perimeter alarms. Do we see this at any other point in the series? Even the big bulky backpacks go by the wayside at somepoint in the series.

It's mentionned that Jonas was in black ops? Is that different from the special forces? Wasn't Jack in black ops?

Sam and Daniel are talking about Jonas, and how Sam isn't suprised by his turn. Daniel comments that the crazier the soldier, the crazier the situation they get put into, then glances back at Jack to see if he heard. Jack doesn't react, either he didn't hear (not likely) or he choses not to react. Either he knows it's true or he's listening to Sam talk about Jonas. Know the enemy? Trying to get info without pumping her so he has a better idea of what he's up against?

Sam also states that when they met up at Stargate Command, things seemed fine. I wonder how long it had been since she broke off the engagement? She said she knew he had it in him. Liked to be in control. What kind of relationship was it? I'm not thinking that Hansen abused her physically, I just can't see Sam allowing a man to do that to her (and I know that's a terrible thing to say. Abused women don't always fit a 'pattern' but with Sam's training I can't see her not getting a punch or two in herself.) I'm thinking that Hansen tried or did abuse Sam emotionally or mentally.

Sam says she has a soft spot for the lunatic fringe, then the shot cuts to Jack. I wonder if she knows the full story of the original mission to Abydos? Does she know by this point that Jack was willing to kill himself for a mission? I am curious as to why the shot changes to Jack when she says that. Was it TPTB trying to show that Jack does not seem (on the surface) to be bothered by this statement or is it a hint of things to come? Jack's listening to this entire conversation but not saying a word.

When Jonas is ranting to Sam in the cave, I can hear what he's saying and something inside of me tells me he could be a very good cult leader. He has a way with words, and truly believes what he's saying, and that he's doing it for the good of the people he's commanding/leading.

Jonas states he was Sam's failiure, the one she couldn't 'fix'. He said he knew she would come. He also knows she won't shoot him. She doesn't have to kill him, just shoot him in the arm, and he'd drop just long enough for her to break free from what he's saying and use the radios to get the rest of her team to help. But she can't, and he knew that.

When he pulls out a Bible and starts talking about looking for God, and now here he is, it shows that he has gone over the edge. He's not just creating an 'illusion' he's crazy, he really truly believes with everypart of him, that he is a god. He has a serious mental condition which can put others in harm and I would assume that any and all branches of the military do rigerous testing for mental illnesses especially in high stress situations. For him to 'snap' suddenly without any professional seeing a tendancy (as I'm assuming if they had an idea of any mental illness they would not have allowed him to lead an SG team) means that he is perhaps knieving and managed to hide it very very well. For the one other team member that's going along with him, is he doing it to stay alive? Or is this someone else who has gone over the edge?

There are two devices, and both must be on for the shield to work. They're both outside! Did they carry the one out there? Same as when they tipped the gate on it's side? Then managed to tip it back. Perhaps it's a goof and something just 'created' to make a story fit, but there's no mention of moving the gate.

When it looks like then end for Jonas, he grabs Sam and says he's taking her with him. He's suicidal and taking her with him, same as when he was in the cave. He said that when it all ended, he'd kill her right before killing himself. Why? Because of her breaking it off with him, he needs to take her to the end with him?

Sam's obvoiusly shaken and upset by what's happened and Jack tries to talk to her about it. When she states that she had the opportunity to end it earlier, Jack instantly reassures her. He tells her taking a mans life is no badge of honour. Is it possible that Sam has never had to shoot someone point blank, or watch them being killed by her hand?

Sam and Jack implications: We hear of a previous relationship of Sam's that didn't work out and that until this point things between her and Jonas were working well on the base. They either didn't run into each other, or kept contact to a minimum. The scene at the end is a nice touching moment where Jack talks to Sam, tries to quell any doubt she has in her abilities, and basically does the 'good team leader' bit. It doesn't come off quite like that. It shows that Jack cares about her, even just as a member of his team. It's been a rough mission for her and he knows that, acknowledges that, and talks to her while dealing with a sensitive matter.

[Petra]

I don't care about this episode. The part about SG team becomig gods and the part about devices were interesting ideas, but I feel that making Jonas Sam's ex-fiance was terribly cliche and personally I try to ignore it as much as possible. I know I'm probably the only one who thinks it. *shrug*

It's mentionned that Jonas was in black ops? Is that different from the special forces? Wasn't Jack in black ops?

From what I've heard/read black ops are slightly different from Special Forces, in that they do missions unsanctioned by the government, meaning: if they get caught they are on their own because the government denies all knowledge. They require the best from the best. However bear in mind I'm no expert and don't know how much of this is true.

Sam also states that when they met up at Stargate Command, things seemed fine. I wonder how long it had been since she broke off the engagement? She said she knew he had it in him. Liked to be in control. What kind of relationship was it? I'm not thinking that Hansen abused her physically, I just can't see Sam allowing a man to do that to her (and I know that's a terrible thing to say. Abused women don't always fit a 'pattern' but with Sam's training I can't see her not getting a punch or two in herself.) I'm thinking that Hansen tried or did abuse Sam emotionally or mentally.

I agree. I also think it was more along the lines of mental abuse/emotional blackmail than anything physical because I don't see Sam putting up with this kind of behaviour. And all those fanfics where Jonas is a monster beating Sam up annoy me greatly.

Sam says she has a soft spot for the lunatic fringe, then the shot cuts to Jack. I wonder if she knows the full story of the original mission to Abydos? Does she know by this point that Jack was willing to kill himself for a mission? I am curious as to why the shot changes to Jack when she says that. Was it TPTB trying to show that Jack does not seem (on the surface) to be bothered by this statement or is it a hint of things to come? Jack's listening to this entire conversation but not saying a word.

Err, I wouldn't say Jack was willing to kill himeself for mission; he rather used the mission as a means of honourable (in his mind) suicide because of Charlie. However I don't think Sam knows about it. I doubt it was in any report or any documents a lowly captain could have access to, and there's no way Jack would have told her. I can't think of any reason for showing Jack when she says this apart from another blatant try of TPTB to set them up.

Jonas states he was Sam's failiure, the one she couldn't 'fix'. He said he knew she would come. He also knows she won't shoot him. She doesn't have to kill him, just shoot him in the arm, and he'd drop just long enough for her to break free from what he's saying and use the radios to get the rest of her team to help. But she can't, and he knew that.

This is probably why I have such a problem with this episode. It's so d*** cliched that Sam is the type of woman wanting to heal broken men; besides I don't buy it, she doesn't seem to fit this profile anyway..
And there's no reason for her not to shoot him. No at all. And even at this point I think it OoC for Sam to just break down and let him take her gun back (if I remember correctly - I'm writing it all from memory only, so sorry for any mistakes).

Sam's obvoiusly shaken and upset by what's happened and Jack tries to talk to her about it. When she states that she had the opportunity to end it earlier, Jack instantly reassures her. He tells her taking a mans life is no badge of honour. Is it possible that Sam has never had to shoot someone point blank, or watch them being killed by her hand?

It's bound to be another unpopular opinion (hmm, I seem to excel at them ), but I think it's entirely possible. Sam is around 30 here, right? Earlier she'd worked in the Pentagon and probably was busy with her scientific career. We know only that she was flying in the Gulf. It was probably the only time she took part in a combat, and she wasn't in the ground forces. I definitely see her killing people from the air, but I don't think she'd been in a situation prior to getting on SG-1 where personal killing was required.

[VSS]

There were two lines in here I loved-
Jack: Good, if any little rocks try to sneak up on us, we'll know.

and

Daniel: We should have tried to stop her.
Teal'c: We would have failed.

Funny how Teal'c already knows Sam can be a little hard-headed. I also liked how Teal'c deftly explains why all the worlds look alike- terraforming! The goa'uld wanted the entire universe to look like British Columbia. Those are the little explanations and attention to minutiae that I love about this series, or at least the early seasons. They really cared about the small stuff.

It's mentionned that Jonas was in black ops? Is that different from the special forces? Wasn't Jack in black ops?

I think in this particular setting, black ops and special forces are supposed to mean the same thing. I think black ops is slang, but I'm not sure. And Jack was in it, whatever you want to call it.

Either he knows it's true or he's listening to Sam talk about Jonas. Know the enemy? Trying to get info without pumping her so he has a better idea of what he's up against?

Yes to all of the above. It seems that he doesn't care what Daniel thinks, he wants to hear what Sam has to say about Jonas.

Sam says she has a soft spot for the lunatic fringe, then the shot cuts to Jack. I wonder if she knows the full story of the original mission to Abydos? Does she know by this point that Jack was willing to kill himself for a mission? I am curious as to why the shot changes to Jack when she says that. Was it TPTB trying to show that Jack does not seem (on the surface) to be bothered by this statement or is it a hint of things to come? Jack's listening to this entire conversation but not saying a word.

I don't think she knows a thing about that. And it's interesting what you said last time about Daniel using a title with her still applies- he calls her Captain Carter. The team is still not all that close, I think. But the shot cutting back to Jack is a definite set-up for the ship. I think it's kind of hilarious, because in that hat and glasses, staring up at the trees, Jack looks a little deranged.

When he pulls out a Bible and starts talking about looking for God, and now here he is, it shows that he has gone over the edge. He's not just creating an 'illusion' he's crazy, he really truly believes with everypart of him, that he is a god.

I'm not sure he really believes he's a god, from a couple of the little comments he makes to Sam- first, when she aks why he can't ask the people to read the cave drawing, he shrugs and says sarcastically, "All-knowing." Then in the end he says, "I'm having a moment here." He does believe he's a superior being, no doubt, and that the people need him, and should die for him. A lot of nonreligious dictator-types think that, too. Some of that Bible-quoting may be him trying to convince himself that his heinous behavior is justified.

There are two devices, and both must be on for the shield to work. They're both outside! Did they carry the one out there? Same as when they tipped the gate on it's side? Then managed to tip it back.

They moved it out of the cave just like they moved it in so Jonas could work on it. The kid says they found the first device in a place just like where they found the second one. And Jonas knocked the gate over to bury it. But yes, it was quite a task to put it upright again, it's supposed to weigh 64000 pounds! How could they do that?

I don't care about this episode. The part about SG team becomig gods and the part about devices were interesting ideas, but I feel that making Jonas Sam's ex-fiance was terribly cliche and personally I try to ignore it as much as possible. I know I'm probably the only one who thinks it. *shrug*

I like this ep because of the things you mention, but yes, here we are five episodes into it, and still Sam's only significant scenes relate directly to the fact that she's a woman! I didn't realize how bad it was until doing this rewatch. I don't know how AT could stand it, seriously.

And all those fanfics where Jonas is a monster beating Sam up annoy me greatly.

Me, too.

This is probably why I have such a problem with this episode. It's so d*** cliched that Sam is the type of woman wanting to heal broken men; besides I don't buy it, she doesn't seem to fit this profile anyway..
And there's no reason for her not to shoot him. No at all. And even at this point I think it OoC for Sam to just break down and let him take her gun back

I agree. Plus, at the end she could have easily blown his hand off without killing him. I would have, and I only have ever shot a handgun on a firing range at little round paper targets.

It's bound to be another unpopular opinion (hmm, I seem to excel at them ), but I think it's entirely possible. Sam is around 30 here, right? Earlier she'd worked in the Pentagon and probably was busy with her scientific career. We know only that she was flying in the Gulf. It was probably the only time she took part in a combat, and she wasn't in the ground forces. I definitely see her killing people from the air, but I don't think she'd been in a situation prior to getting on SG-1 where personal killing was required.

I think this is correct, and I think that's what Jack was getting at. It's very different to kill someone up close and personal, or to kill someone who's not trying to kill you at the time. That's why snipers are a special breed, as well as special forces. And there's a lot of overlap between the two.

I agree with Toomi that the scene at the end is very touching, it says a lot about Jack. This is actually what I perceive to be the first inkling (beside what Teal'c said about not stopping Sam ) that they're becoming a team in more than name only. Does Sam even know he was in special forces? If so, she's got to know that when he talks about killing someone bringing her that much closer to being like Jonas, he also means he's a little like Jonas, and he doesn't want her to turn out like him. It's a very protective thing for him to say, and it's probably the closest thing to revealing a little of himself to her that we've seen so far. I think he might have different advice for an officer who could handle being a little more cold-blooded- but this advice seemed specifically tailored just for her.

Also, I wondered about Hansen being only a Captain. What's he doing leading SG-9 with that low of a rank? Why isn't he at least a Major? That meant that every other officer on that team was only a Lieutenant. Did it have something to do with Sam- are they already trying to avoid the implication that she was dating someone who could have been her CO? I find it very weird, to say the least.

[gater62]

There were two lines in here I loved-
Jack: Good, if any little rocks try to sneak up on us, we'll know.

and

Daniel: We should have tried to stop her.
Teal'c: We would have failed.

Funny how Teal'c already knows Sam can be a little hard-headed. I also liked how Teal'c deftly explains why all the worlds look alike- terraforming! The goa'uld wanted the entire universe to look like British Columbia. Those are the little explanations and attention to minutiae that I love about this series, or at least the early seasons. They really cared about the small stuff.



I think in this particular setting, black ops and special forces are supposed to mean the same thing. I think black ops is slang, but I'm not sure. And Jack was in it, whatever you want to call it.


Yes to all of the above. It seems that he doesn't care what Daniel thinks, he wants to hear what Sam has to say about Jonas.



I don't think she knows a thing about that. And it's interesting what you said last time about Daniel using a title with her still applies- he calls her Captain Carter. The team is still not all that close, I think. But the shot cutting back to Jack is a definite set-up for the ship. I think it's kind of hilarious, because in that hat and glasses, staring up at the trees, Jack looks a little deranged.



I'm not sure he really believes he's a god, from a couple of the little comments he makes to Sam- first, when she aks why he can't ask the people to read the cave drawing, he shrugs and says sarcastically, "All-knowing." Then in the end he says, "I'm having a moment here." He does believe he's a superior being, no doubt, and that the people need him, and should die for him. A lot of nonreligious dictator-types think that, too. Some of that Bible-quoting may be him trying to convince himself that his heinous behavior is justified.



They moved it out of the cave just like they moved it in so Jonas could work on it. The kid says they found the first device in a place just like where they found the second one. And Jonas knocked the gate over to bury it. But yes, it was quite a task to put it upright again, it's supposed to weigh 64000 pounds! How could they do that?



I like this ep because of the things you mention, but yes, here we are five episodes into it, and still Sam's only significant scenes relate directly to the fact that she's a woman! I didn't realize how bad it was until doing this rewatch. I don't know how AT could stand it, seriously.

Me, too.



I agree. Plus, at the end she could have easily blown his hand off without killing him. I would have, and I only have ever shot a handgun on a firing range at little round paper targets.



I think this is correct, and I think that's what Jack was getting at. It's very different to kill someone up close and personal, or to kill someone who's not trying to kill you at the time. That's why snipers are a special breed, as well as special forces. And there's a lot of overlap between the two.

I agree with Toomi that the scene at the end is very touching, it says a lot about Jack. This is actually what I perceive to be the first inkling (beside what Teal'c said about not stopping Sam ) that they're becoming a team in more than name only. Does Sam even know he was in special forces? If so, she's got to know that when he talks about killing someone bringing her that much closer to being like Jonas, he also means he's a little like Jonas, and he doesn't want her to turn out like him. It's a very protective thing for him to say, and it's probably the closest thing to revealing a little of himself to her that we've seen so far. I think he might have different advice for an officer who could handle being a little more cold-blooded- but this advice seemed specifically tailored just for her.

Also, I wondered about Hansen being only a Captain. What's he doing leading SG-9 with that low of a rank? Why isn't he at least a Major? That meant that every other officer on that team was only a Lieutenant. Did it have something to do with Sam- are they already trying to avoid the implication that she was dating someone who could have been her CO? I find it very weird, to say the least.

Excellent post! Yes, black ops is slang for missions that need plausible deniability. And I also find it weird every time that Hansen is a Captain. Don't they mention later that an SG team leader needs to be at least a Major? (or did I read that in a fanfic? ) Because if Hansen had been demoted to Captain, then he wouldn't have been eligible to be an SG team leader anyway.

As for avoiding the implication she could have been dating someone who could have been her CO, maybe. I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. She had dated him at least a year prior, but they could have been the same rank at the same time and then he was promoted. But would that have even mattered if they didn't work together? If TPTB were going this route, it seems very complicated.

[Aveo_amacus]

Excellent post! Yes, black ops is slang for missions that need plausible deniability. And I also find it weird every time that Hansen is a Captain. Don't they mention later that an SG team leader needs to be at least a Major? (or did I read that in a fanfic? ) Because if Hansen had been demoted to Captain, then he wouldn't have been eligible to be an SG team leader anyway.

As for avoiding the implication she could have been dating someone who could have been her CO, maybe. I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. She had dated him at least a year prior, but they could have been the same rank at the same time and then he was promoted. But would that have even mattered if they didn't work together? If TPTB were going this route, it seems very complicated.

I don't think it was ever said in an episode, but I think it was implied as everyone else was.
Except Lt. Conners in this ep, doesn't he lead SG11 in Spirits? He was promoted to Capt. at that point but that's not a Major...
Maybe it's only the premier teams? 1-6 or something?? I don't know anything about base makeups but considering there are at least 22 (28??) SG teams that's quite a lot of Maj./Lt. Col./Col.s on base considering it doesn't seem to be that big a base (again, what do I know!)

[VSS]

I don't think it was ever said in an episode, but I think it was implied as everyone else was.
Except Lt. Conners in this ep, doesn't he lead SG11 in Spirits? He was promoted to Capt. at that point but that's not a Major...
Maybe it's only the premier teams? 1-6 or something?? I don't know anything about base makeups but considering there are at least 22 (28??) SG teams that's quite a lot of Maj./Lt. Col./Col.s on base considering it doesn't seem to be that big a base (again, what do I know!)

Wow, good memory! Connors was only a captain in that episode. I guess it's always been my feeling that all of the SG teams are premier teams, possibly because there aren't any enlisted airmen on them as far as I know, but maybe that's not correct, maybe there are. It's dangerous and very exciting- I would think the competition to be on a team would be stiff. At the same time, one wrong move and the whole world is in danger. I think it's odd that a Captain would be team leader unless someone else had already been to that planet.

On the other hand, maybe the really unusual thing is that there are Colonels leading these teams!

But the SGC is definitely swarming with officers. Like, almost everyone except Walter and Siler. I've always thought that was unusual, too.

[josiane]

The First Commandment: I really like this episode actually. My reaction is completely opposite to col aga's, in that I found it to be the first time I warmed to Sam as a character on first watching, because we got some backstory and also saw her more vulnerable side in a way that none of the previous episodes had shown.

There were two lines in here I loved-
Jack: Good, if any little rocks try to sneak up on us, we'll know.

and

Daniel: We should have tried to stop her.
Teal'c: We would have failed.

Funny how Teal'c already knows Sam can be a little hard-headed.

Again showing that Teal'c is really far more perceptive than he might appear at first glance And this is interesting considering that the relationship between Teal'c and Sam that always seemed to get least attention. There's a lot of effort put in to establishing Teal'c and Jack, and Sam and Jack, and Sam and Daniel, and (although not quite as much as you would have thought considering Teal'c was responsible for Sha're's Goa'ulding) Daniel and Teal'c, but Sam and Teal'c kind of got left behind a little. But I think this shows, as we come to learn as the series goes on, that Teal'c understands Sam really quite well on an instinctive level.

I don't think she knows a thing about that. And it's interesting what you said last time about Daniel using a title with her still applies- he calls her Captain Carter. The team is still not all that close, I think. But the shot cutting back to Jack is a definite set-up for the ship. I think it's kind of hilarious, because in that hat and glasses, staring up at the trees, Jack looks a little deranged.

I absolutely adore that little cut-shot, because it's so subtle and so deliberate. It's there purely to establish the parallel between Jonas and Jack, and done at the exact point that Sam is talking about her attraction to and relationship with Jonas - hence, by extension, to and potentially with Jack. But it's done without any fuss whatsoever. It's after Broca Divide, where we had the in-your-faceness of their attraction on a physical level, but here it's to show the attraction is also there emotionally, for Sam at least, and IMO in a far less beat-you-over-the-head-with-it kind of way. I also find it interesting that there is a superficial physical resemblance between Jack and Jonas - not least in that they're both obviously quite a bit older than Sam. Trying to hint at 'type' in the same way as the surely-no-coincidence physical similarity we see between Sam and Sara in Cold Lazarus?

I like this ep because of the things you mention, but yes, here we are five episodes into it, and still Sam's only significant scenes relate directly to the fact that she's a woman! I didn't realize how bad it was until doing this rewatch. I don't know how AT could stand it, seriously.

Very good point, I hadn't realised either, but you're exactly right and it does explain why it took me so long to warm to Sam as a character. It didn't happen until the fact of her being a woman could be incidental - something that would inform her actions and the plot no more or less than you would expect, rather than being the one defining characteristic of her. True, as I said above, for me it started to happen with this episode because I like her vulnerability in it, but in general I agree, it's really quite a bad way to bring someone in! I mean, characters are always a little one-dimensional at the start of any story, it takes a while to flesh them out, but Sam's entry is particularly bad like this. It says a lot about how wonderful a character she developed into that I now can go back and like her in these early episodes, knowing what she becomes.

I think this is correct, and I think that's what Jack was getting at. It's very different to kill someone up close and personal, or to kill someone who's not trying to kill you at the time. That's why snipers are a special breed, as well as special forces. And there's a lot of overlap between the two.

I agree with Toomi that the scene at the end is very touching, it says a lot about Jack. This is actually what I perceive to be the first inkling (beside what Teal'c said about not stopping Sam ) that they're becoming a team in more than name only. Does Sam even know he was in special forces? If so, she's got to know that when he talks about killing someone bringing her that much closer to being like Jonas, he also means he's a little like Jonas, and he doesn't want her to turn out like him. It's a very protective thing for him to say, and it's probably the closest thing to revealing a little of himself to her that we've seen so far. I think he might have different advice for an officer who could handle being a little more cold-blooded- but this advice seemed specifically tailored just for her.

Agreed, on all points. There's a lot of affection underlying this, and in that way it's quite like the scene right at the end of Broca Divide, where Jack deals with her embarrassment by revealing possibly more of his affection for her than he might necessarily have intended. If he didn't like her, he would not have teased her about the tank top number. Likewise, if he didn't like her, he would not have made such a point about being so understanding here. And these are set-ups for the ship too, every bit as much as virus-induced kisses and carefully placed cut-away shots. It's showing the development of their friendship and affection from which the rest of the feelings will come.

I don't think it was ever said in an episode, but I think it was implied as everyone else was.
Except Lt. Conners in this ep, doesn't he lead SG11 in Spirits? He was promoted to Capt. at that point but that's not a Major...
Maybe it's only the premier teams? 1-6 or something?? I don't know anything about base makeups but considering there are at least 22 (28??) SG teams that's quite a lot of Maj./Lt. Col./Col.s on base considering it doesn't seem to be that big a base (again, what do I know!)

Wow, that's well noticed! I'd never picked up on that!

[leiasky]

Reading everyone's discussion about the Sam/Teal'c 'thing' on Unending. I honestly didn't pick up on there being anything other than sibling affection until I got online and read commentaries, forum posts, etc. At the end of the day, I still can't buy it. Maybe the actors wanted to play with it but I don't see their hookup as canon.

Yeah, I never noticed it either. And while it doesn't bother me as much as it does some, I just can't see Teal'c, if he knew about Sam and Jack being involved, betraying his friend and brother by getting involved with Sam.

If I'm wrong, and there's a particular moment in the episode that clearly shows these two getting together, someone please enlighten me.

There isn't.

Now conversely, and yes, this may sound dumb, but when Sam plays the Cello, I get the distinct sense she's thinking of Jack. Can't explain why but then, that's just my own personal little bit of fanon -- nothing written in concrete.

I got that exact impression when she was playing the Cello as well. She was sad and thinking of Jack.

[Aveo_amacus]

The First Commandment: I really like this episode actually. My reaction is completely opposite to col aga's, in that I found it to be the first time I warmed to Sam as a character on first watching, because we got some backstory and also saw her more vulnerable side in a way that none of the previous episodes had shown.

I'm with you on this, I liked the fact it showed some of Sam's backstory, we'd already had some for Daniel and Jack and a tiny bit for Teal'c (obviously not as much until bloodlines) and this was Sam's turn, I didn't have a problem with it being cliche - I mean it has to happen sometimes for it to be a cliche right? I liked that she was engaged to Jonas, it showed she wasn't a 2D workaholic and never realised there were other people in the world - even if it didn't work out. In fact more because it didn't work out tbh

Very good point, I hadn't realised either, but you're exactly right and it does explain why it took me so long to warm to Sam as a character. It didn't happen until the fact of her being a woman could be incidental - something that would inform her actions and the plot no more or less than you would expect, rather than being the one defining characteristic of her. True, as I said above, for me it started to happen with this episode because I like her vulnerability in it, but in general I agree, it's really quite a bad way to bring someone in! I mean, characters are always a little one-dimensional at the start of any story, it takes a while to flesh them out, but Sam's entry is particularly bad like this. It says a lot about how wonderful a character she developed into that I now can go back and like her in these early episodes, knowing what she becomes.



Agreed, on all points. There's a lot of affection underlying this, and in that way it's quite like the scene right at the end of Broca Divide, where Jack deals with her embarrassment by revealing possibly more of his affection for her than he might necessarily have intended. If he didn't like her, he would not have teased her about the tank top number. Likewise, if he didn't like her, he would not have made such a point about being so understanding here. And these are set-ups for the ship too, every bit as much as virus-induced kisses and carefully placed cut-away shots. It's showing the development of their friendship and affection from which the rest of the feelings will come.

See I was "lucky" in that sense that I came in mid-series (about 4/5) so I already liked Sam when I first saw this ep. It probably changed my view of this ep quite considerably really..

[VSS]

I absolutely adore that little cut-shot, because it's so subtle and so deliberate. It's there purely to establish the parallel between Jonas and Jack, and done at the exact point that Sam is talking about her attraction to and relationship with Jonas - hence, by extension, to and potentially with Jack. But it's done without any fuss whatsoever. It's after Broca Divide, where we had the in-your-faceness of their attraction on a physical level, but here it's to show the attraction is also there emotionally, for Sam at least, and IMO in a far less beat-you-over-the-head-with-it kind of way. I also find it interesting that there is a superficial physical resemblance between Jack and Jonas - not least in that they're both obviously quite a bit older than Sam. Trying to hint at 'type' in the same way as the surely-no-coincidence physical similarity we see between Sam and Sara in Cold Lazarus?

I missed that little shot the first time I watched this ep. The second time I watched it, I thought, "Did they really do what I think they did?". But, yeah, it was deliberate. It's a nice point you make about it being on an emotional level rather than animal attraction.

I don't think Jonas is Jack's age, though. I think he's just about the same age as Sam. Being out in the sun has really aged him, I think that's actually the point they're trying to make. The beard ages him, too.

Spoiler:

It's the same as Cam playing his grandfather- he's not that old, it's the weather. After all, Cam's dad hadn't been born yet in Continuum.

It seems like they met at an early stage in both of their careers, and they were both still Captains at this point.

[josiane]

I missed that little shot the first time I watched this ep. The second time I watched it, I thought, "Did they really do what I think they did?". But, yeah, it was deliberate. It's a nice point you make about it being on an emotional level rather than animal attraction.

Exactly - I missed it first time too and had the exact same reaction when I saw it again after knowing what goes on to happen with Sam and Jack in later episodes. Beautifully done because it's something that people watching fresh for the first time would not catch the significance of at all, and yet subconsciously it makes that connection for you. Then when you go back later on and see it, you realise quite how far back this thing was planned.

I don't think Jonas is Jack's age, though. I think he's just about the same age as Sam. Being out in the sun has really aged him, I think that's actually the point they're trying to make. The beard ages him, too.

Spoiler:

It's the same as Cam playing his grandfather- he's not that old, it's the weather. After all, Cam's dad hadn't been born yet in Continuum.

It seems like they met at an early stage in both of their careers, and they were both still Captains at this point.

Interesting... you're probably right, but I've always got the impression he's older. Not necessarily as old as Jack, but definitely older than Sam.

[VSS]

Exactly - I missed it first time too and had the exact same reaction when I saw it again after knowing what goes on to happen with Sam and Jack in later episodes. Beautifully done because it's something that people watching fresh for the first time would not catch the significance of at all, and yet subconsciously it makes that connection for you. Then when you go back later on and see it, you realise quite how far back this thing was planned.



Interesting... you're probably right, but I've always got the impression he's older. Not necessarily as old as Jack, but definitely older than Sam.

But... didn't one of the TPTB say they really didn't plan it until they saw them together in Out of Mind? To which I always think, "Yeah, right!"

As for Jonas, he might be a little older than Sam- and then there is the reddish-brown hair- so hmm. A type? That would explain why Pete was doomed from the start, and Agent Barrett could definitely have been more of a threat.

[VSS]

See I was "lucky" in that sense that I came in mid-series (about 4/5) so I already liked Sam when I first saw this ep. It probably changed my view of this ep quite considerably really..

Me, too. I think probably the first ep I saw was WoO or Moebius (it was a marathon. Notice how many of the the popular eps are shippy?). That's why this rewatch is enlightening for me, especially with other people around to point out things.