Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[majorsal]

Greetings!
Been away in NOLA (amazing place, btw) and have missed much discussion. The GW forums seem slow as molasses tonight. Does anyone know if Brad Wright or Amanda Tapping made any mention at the CreationCon about our beloved ship?

the only thing i heard was from amanda, and she wants sam and jack to do *it*.

[digitalred93]

the only thing i heard was from amanda, and she wants sam and jack to do *it*.

Seriously? She said it like that? Now THAT would have been worth flying up to Vancouver to hear - I'm still laughing (both from the frivolity and the optimism implied!)

FYI, besides the SGU auction for Waterkeepers, there's an auction for lunch with RDA during filming of the next SG-1 film... in November or December! They're shooting much later in the year later than I thought.

[leiasky]

the only thing i heard was from amanda, and she wants sam and jack to do *it*.

I'm impatiently waiting for someone to write a transcript of her panel. I can't believe it hasn't been done yet! Someone did one for Joe and Michael . . .

[Oma-1]

I think you've hit the nail on the head with this - absolutely! They needed to make the Goa'uld threat seem really real - not just an abstract big bad that threatens the world as a whole, but also an individual threat that can take one person away. And sure they had taken Sha're and Skaara, but they were Abydonians, so it's still SG1 fighting on behalf of others for this. Taking Kawalsky in this way shows that the SG personnel are putting themselves in this danger too - it's a real warning of what our team are going to face (and of course preshadows Jolinar, so that when we see that situation we are remembering what happened to Kawalsky as well).

On the thing about Jack giving the order to kill Kawalsky and how that relatest to Entity, again yes, absolutely. And I think even more it shows quite how far Jack's feelings for Sam have grown by that point that he hesitates so seriously. Because really it's the exact same situation - someone he cares about has been taken over by a parasite and are threatening the base and the world, and he has the opportunity to kill them and end the threat. And he cares deeply about Kawalsky, as is clear, but he really loves Sam. Also here as you say - he walks away from Kawalsky's body pretty coldly, but he doesn't do that with Sam in Entity. OK so yes she is still technically alive, there's still hope in a way there wasn't with Kawalsky, but we see Jack's pain far more clearly with Sam than we do with Kawalsky in the same situation.



Aww thanks for sharing!

I agree with what VSS and Josi said, but I think he was also sacrificed for Shau'ri. She's been goa'ulded, Daniel's joined SG-1 for the specific purpose of looking for her. This ep deals with the nature of the goa'uld so that we can understand exactly what's happened to her. It reinforces how evil they are, how insidious, how difficult to remove - it shows us how even if Daniel finds Shau'ri, that's not even half of the battle. How are they going to remove the goau'ld without killing her? It's ramping up that Daniel angst waaaaaay high

[Oma-1]

You really got my brain thinking with this one VSS

Jay Acovone does some great acting here as Kawalsky. But Jack has a very hard time with deep personal feelings- the stereo joke is one of many examples where he uses humor as a defense mechanism. He doesn’t do that very much with Sam, as time goes by though, does he? I’m trying to figure that out. Is it because his feelings for her eventually become too deep for him to even joke about it? Is it because Kowalsky is a guy and it’s a guy thing? Is it because he can hide behind his rank with her but can’t in this situation? Given our discussions from a couple of days ago, I’m going to assume that he and Charlie have been very good friends for many years, and Charlie’s not going to be the “good soldier” for Jack any more than he was for General Hammond. Anyway, I think this episode is the reason why their relationship was written that way, because they were basically strangers in the Stargate movie. It made his death seem more tragic.

Uh huh, Jay is really great in this ep.

EW shows the Jack/Charlie friendship as much more longstanding and deeper in nature than COTG suggests (that line about going through that whole mission together and not knowing he had a son made it seem as though that was their first mission serving together) and I think you're right that it was to make this fight a much more personal one than it was, even more so than with Skaara being taken, and as Josi said for the rest of the SGC. They've all seen the goa'uld up close and personal now.

Your parallel with Kowalsky and Jacob also applies in S2, because when Jacob becomes a tok'ra is where this fight gets more personal for Sam.


We could almost use Jack's use of humour with Sam as a barometer for their relationship Its certainly something to keep an eye on through the rewatch

Again, not a lot of S/J going on here- except the FIRST gratuitous touching moment (GTM?) right after she gets whacked by Kawalsky and they’re sitting in the briefing room. Just so Jack can make sure she’s all right. Well, she’s just been to the infirmary, Jack! Of course she’s fine. But you just have to make sure, don’t you? (Sometimes I talk to the characters. Sorry!) I have to say that totally looks like something RDA just decided to do on the spot because it looks very natural. The chemistry in this ship is just amazing- really that’s what makes it work so much of the time, thanks to the actors.

LOL, most definitely GTM Is that in the Shiptionary yet Josi?

BTW, this is the first ep in which we see just the four of them together in the briefing room. In this ep we see it twice, and Jack and Sam are already sitting by each other. Just for fun, I’m keeping a running odds of that being a random seating arrangement. So far, the chance is only 11%. Something tells me that’s only going to get lower as time goes by. Is the director in charge of this, or do the actors just sit where they want? I’ve no clue.

I assumed that was deliberate in early eps because they were the officers. I'm gonna bet as time goes on, the seating arrangement changes randomly (probably because of blocking for the dialogue than any other reason though ).

Don Davis did a great job with General Hammond, we were lucky to have him.

We most certainly were! He was a tremendous actor. I loved how he described having given George a whole background to make him a more rounded and believeable character. COTG portrays him as a strong General, who follows orders, although having a deep moral conscience which means he won't follow those orders blindly (regardless of how much trouble that causes with his superiors ). Exactly the man to be leading the SGC

Implications for Sam and Jack: Jack’s basic method of dealing with his deepest emotions is denial, and if he ever manages to express anything at all, it’s with actions and not words. But it’s actions that can get Jack and Sam in trouble. It seems to me that it’s these two factors that ultimately explain why he’s unable to communicate his deepest feelings to her. And right now, she’s not a whole lot better, in fact, she may be worse!

Haven't we been wishing they would for years?!

Good catch though. This is why every ep has ship in it. There may not be anything overt, but we learn more about the characters, and that has implications in the way they interact with each other therefore how they feel about each other.

[josiane]

I agree with what VSS and Josi said, but I think he was also sacrificed for Shau'ri. She's been goa'ulded, Daniel's joined SG-1 for the specific purpose of looking for her. This ep deals with the nature of the goa'uld so that we can understand exactly what's happened to her. It reinforces how evil they are, how insidious, how difficult to remove - it shows us how even if Daniel finds Shau'ri, that's not even half of the battle. How are they going to remove the goau'ld without killing her? It's ramping up that Daniel angst waaaaaay high

Oh yes, absolutely!

We could almost use Jack's use of humour with Sam as a barometer for their relationship Its certainly something to keep an eye on through the rewatch

Ooh interesting... definitely something to keep an eye out for indeed

LOL, most definitely GTM Is that in the Shiptionary yet Josi?

Not yet, but it soon will be!

Good catch though. This is why every ep has ship in it. There may not be anything overt, but we learn more about the characters, and that has implications in the way they interact with each other therefore how they feel about each other.

*nods* Indeed.

[VSS]

the only thing i heard was from amanda, and she wants sam and jack to do *it*.

Because she thinks they haven't yet, which is my slightly more pessimistic take on that.

Seriously? She said it like that? Now THAT would have been worth flying up to Vancouver to hear - I'm still laughing (both from the frivolity and the optimism implied!)

FYI, besides the SGU auction for Waterkeepers, there's an auction for lunch with RDA during filming of the next SG-1 film... in November or December! They're shooting much later in the year later than I thought.

Ugh. More depressing news. I think I'll go back to bed. Except for that new ep I have to post in an hour or so.

I agree with what VSS and Josi said, but I think he was also sacrificed for Shau'ri. She's been goa'ulded, Daniel's joined SG-1 for the specific purpose of looking for her. This ep deals with the nature of the goa'uld so that we can understand exactly what's happened to her. It reinforces how evil they are, how insidious, how difficult to remove - it shows us how even if Daniel finds Shau'ri, that's not even half of the battle. How are they going to remove the goau'ld without killing her? It's ramping up that Daniel angst waaaaaay high

Yes! I think this is where he first says "Something of the host must survive." So Daniel has hope. But then they're not able to get the goa'uld out of Kawalsky, and his hopes are dashed, yet again. I wish we'd seen more of Daniel's reaction to that- after Kawalsky died. There really should have been more. I didn't even realize how angsty this was for him until you pointed it out, and it really is a very important ep for this character.

We could almost use Jack's use of humour with Sam as a barometer for their relationship Its certainly something to keep an eye on through the rewatch

Too bad we don't have an objective scale. I like to quantify things, like the nonrandom seating arrangement.

[VSS]

Emancipation

Favorite quote: “Daniel, find me an anthropologist that dresses like this and I will eat this head dress.”

Favorite scene: The dress scene. It’s the first major shippy scene in Stargate SG-1.

Thanks, padme!

AT must have just rolled her eyes when she got a look at her scripts for the first few episodes. They really hit the woman-in-the-Air Force thing hard, and not much else for her. But everything that Sam says and does in this ep is spot on, it's just too much, so it comes across very preachy. It reminds me of the ep Spirits in that way. I wish they’d given us something from her past that could have explained her attitude instead of just letting her come across as a militant feminist with a chip on her shoulder for no reason. Or was the general environment in the USAF in the mid-90’s enough of a reason? As I said before, they are struggling for a way to give her character some depth. They had a chance here, blew it, and ended up with heavy-handed moralizing like we used to get in Star Trek.

Unlike Star Trek, though, we see SG-1 definitely doesn’t have a prime directive dictating non-interference. Well, we already knew that ! Daniel went native on Abydos and Jack was determined to destroy the slave trade on Chulak. Now it’s Sam’s turn.

This episode is full of S/J interaction in many ways that I just didn’t appreciate before because of the overwhelming badness of the episode, but it is an interesting ep for Jack, too. Right off, he makes his first tactical error by not immediately sending Sam back home. Is he that sure about Daniel’s assessment of their customs? Or does he just want to jerk Sam’s chain some more just for kicks? Either way, it doesn’t turn out so well, and I think he learned that sexism isn’t all that funny, especially in the field, because he doesn’t do it again AFAIK.

But Jack never second-guesses his calls. I’m sure he learns from his mistakes but there’s never any remorse. I suppose that if you make tough decisions all the time, you just do the best you can and move on. The only thing he’s ever blamed himself for is Charlie’s death.

Then there’s the dress scene. Jacks sticks around longer than the other guys- ostensibly to tease her but it’s telling how he takes one last glance back and tells her she looks great. And she doesn’t know quite what to make of that. In that conversation he also calls her “Samantha.” Does he call her that in Grace because it reminds her of the first time he really sees her as a woman? That’s why he does it in the Broca Divide, but Sam didn’t hear that. This time, she hears it.

I liked the way Sam quoted the Special Forces motto to him, which kind of left him without an argument when she wanted to go back.

I don’t have a huge problem with the fight scene- it’s not unrealistic that she might win. She’s just faster and better-trained than Turghan. They could have done without that huge knife of his, though- that’s what made her win seem unlikely. And cliched.

In the end, Jack seems to have found a new appreciation for Sam. Among other things, he doesn’t have to worry about this particular scientist not being able to take care of herself, or others for that matter. He’s smiling the same way when she’s done with Turghan as when she’s wearing the dress. Maybe not as big of a smile, but…. reminds me of a line I read in a fic- “It turned him on to think she could kill him twenty different ways.” Or maybe he’s just proud of her, but he looks happy either way.

The scene at the end where the women come out on cue completely ruins the ep for me. They could’ve had them just show up with their faces uncovered and made the same point with more subtlety. As it is, we're left with this completely contrived scene.

Implications for Sam and Jack: If it wasn't obvious before, in this ep Jack realizes 2IC is not only a great soldier, but a very attractive woman. What's even more interesting to me is the fact that he didn't hesitate to tell her so. Is that appropriate? I don't know, but it sure is shippy.

[Petra]

I don't think anybody has the patience to read my posts but I like this thread so you'll have to bear with me here.
I don't remeber Emancipation too clearly, so I'll be quick and just respond to some points VSS made. However I'd like to say at the beginning that personally I quite like the episode and don't really understand why it is despised so much. True, it's not great, but there were some much worse episodes or even seasons..

Emancipation

Unlike Star Trek, though, we see SG-1 definitely doesn’t have a prime directive dictating non-interference. Well, we already knew that ! Daniel went native on Abydos and Jack was determined to destroy the slave trade on Chulak. Now it’s Sam’s turn.

I don't remember it. What was this about?

This episode is full of S/J interaction in many ways that I just didn’t appreciate before because of the overwhelming badness of the episode, but it is an interesting ep for Jack, too. Right off, he makes his first tactical error by not immediately sending Sam back home. Is he that sure about Daniel’s assessment of their customs? Or does he just want to jerk Sam’s chain some more just for kicks? Either way, it doesn’t turn out so well, and I think he learned that sexism isn’t all that funny, especially in the field, because he doesn’t do it again AFAIK.

I disagree with you here. As I said before, I have never seen Jack's behaviour as sexist. Ever. As for sending Sam home..I didn't rewatch the episode and my memories are hazy so I won't argue abut it being a "must" action, but I don't remember it this way..

But Jack never second-guesses his calls. I’m sure he learns from his mistakes but there’s never any remorse. I suppose that if you make tough decisions all the time, you just do the best you can and move on. The only thing he’s ever blamed himself for is Charlie’s death.

This is an excellent point. I think it's arguably one of the things that make Jack such a good leader. He never shows any doubts or apologises for his decisions, so that people can have total trust in him and do what they are told without any uncertainity/suspicions.

Then there’s the dress scene. Jacks sticks around longer than the other guys- ostensibly to tease her but it’s telling how he takes one last glance back and tells her she looks great. And she doesn’t know quite what to make of that. In that conversation he also calls her “Samantha.” Does he call her that in Grace because it reminds her of the first time he really sees her as a woman? That’s why he does it in the Broca Divide, but Sam didn’t hear that. This time, she hears it.

Another excellent point about using "Samantha" in context of being a woman. I haven't noticed it myself till you pointed it out, and now it seems so obvious I can't believe I missed it!

I don’t have a huge problem with the fight scene- it’s not unrealistic that she might win. She’s just faster and better-trained than Turghan. They could have done without that huge knife of his, though- that’s what made her win seem unlikely. And cliched.

I don't have any problems with this scene as well. Frankly, I'm surprised by the notion there are some folks who don't like it.If I remember correctly it made Top 10 Fights in Stargate Magazine poll.

[VSS]

I don't think anybody has the patience to read my posts but I like this thread so you'll have to bear with me here.

Personally, I read everybody's posts, because I'm always amazed by what I don't know or didn't see. That's why I wanted to do a rewatch.

I don't remember it. What was this about?

What I meant by that was that back on CHulak Jack blasted the hole in the back wall of the jail and took all the goa'uld prisoners with them. If he'd been practicing non-intervention, he wouldn't have brought all those people to earth, he'd have left them there.

I disagree with you here. As I said before, I have never seen Jack's behaviour as sexist. Ever. As for sending Sam home..I didn't rewatch the episode and my memories are hazy so I won't argue abut it being a "must" action, but I don't remember it this way..

I didn't think Jack was being sexist, but what he did do was tolerate someone else being sexist against one of his teammates. Sam actually asked to go back home, and later on he agrees with her, but by then it was too late. He let her be left out and isolated, which put her at risk. Either he should have said "She gets treated like the rest of us" (which is what he did with Teal'c in The Other SIde) or "she goes back to where people respect her." You don't let others disrespect your team members. He just didn't realize the seriousness of the situation, I think, because he thought it was funny.
[/QUOTE]

[majorsal]

Because she thinks they haven't yet, which is my slightly more pessimistic take on that.

i don't like the implications of that either, but it's just amanda's opinion (not that that isn't important ) and she isn't the one writing the scripts. she really doesn't *know* what the script is going to say, so... and anyways, someone on the appreciation thread said amanda might be treading very carefully on this subject, because of the military's involvement in scripts and such, and they don't want it portrayed that they'd ever have an intimate relationship while being in the military together. of course, i could seriously slam this because real life tells other stories on this issue, but for 'impressions' sake, they might want 'they're perfect' and such. and (jack's not her direct commander anymore, and more than one ptb stated that sam and jack ARE together already).

Ugh. More depressing news. I think I'll go back to bed. Except for that new ep I have to post in an hour or so.

yeah, i noticed that too. not sure what's up with that, because they're supposed to film WAY before that... hey, what if this is when the movie's supposed to come out, not when it's filming? that won't be as bad.

[leiasky]

I don't think anybody has the patience to read my posts but I like this thread so you'll have to bear with me here.

I love to read all the posts! My eyeballs tend to glaze over when someone delves too deep into an episode because, face it, I'm just not that deep and complicated. LOL!

However I'd like to say at the beginning that personally I quite like the episode and don't really understand why it is despised so much. True, it's not great, but there were some much worse episodes or even seasons..

Yeah, I don't understand why people seem to despise this episode either. I liked it. It showed that Sam was a woman (and noticed by not only the men on her team, but the men on the planet as well) and that she wasn't weak-willed and could defend herself. She earned the right to be on Jack's team and he sees it in living color right in front of him. I think she earned more of his respect in that episode.

This is an excellent point. I think it's arguably one of the things that make Jack such a good leader. He never shows any doubts or apologises for his decisions, so that people can have total trust in him and do what they are told without any uncertainity/suspicions.

I agree totally.

[VSS]

i don't like the implications of that either, but it's just amanda's opinion (not that that isn't important ) and she isn't the one writing the scripts. she really doesn't *know* what the script is going to say, so... and anyways, someone on the appreciation thread said amanda might be treading very carefully on this subject, because of the military's involvement in scripts and such, and they don't want it portrayed that they'd ever have an intimate relationship while being in the military together. of course, i could seriously slam this because real life tells other stories on this issue, but for 'impressions' sake, they might want 'they're perfect' and such. and (jack's not her direct commander anymore, and more than one ptb stated that sam and jack ARE together already).

Well, I'm just confused why they would want to portray the military as being so rigid that no relationships are allowed, period. Which as you say, isn't true. What's wrong with showing two people who managed to handle things responsibly? I don't get it. I remember something someone said (RealmofX I believe) that the regs don't exist to make people miserable. They're there to maintain "morale and good order," or something along those lines. Having to choose between your work and your love life is hardly maintaining good morale, especially when it's a false choice.

And that's what it is. It's a false choice. They don't have to pick between their jobs and their personal lives anymore. I'm not sure why everyone (AT included, evidently) thinks that they do.

[leiasky]

Well, I'm just confused why they would want to portray the military as being so rigid that no relationships are allowed, period. Which as you say, isn't true. What's wrong with showing two people who managed to handle things responsibly? I don't get it. I remember something someone said (RealmofX I believe) that the regs don't exist to make people miserable. They're there to maintain "morale and good order," or something along those lines. Having to choose between your work and your love life is hardly maintaining good morale, especially when it's a false choice.

And that's what it is. It's a false choice. They don't have to pick between their jobs and their personal lives anymore. I'm not sure why everyone (AT included, evidently) thinks that they do.

Well said. I hope TPTB realize this while they're writing . . .

[Petra]

Personally, I read everybody's posts, because I'm always amazed by what I don't know or didn't see. That's why I wanted to do a rewatch.

I was just joking, I swear! apparently it wasn't so obvious if both you and leiasky took it upon yourselves to respond to this little bit..what I meant was sometimes my posts are so jumbled (and getting quite long) I end up confusing myself so I wouldn't blame anyone who passed on this doubtful pleasure..

What I meant by that was that back on CHulak Jack blasted the hole in the back wall of the jail and took all the goa'uld prisoners with them. If he'd been practicing non-intervention, he wouldn't have brought all those people to earth, he'd have left them there.

Oh, this. Thanks for clarification. I guess I've never thought about this in terms of "slave trade" and the whole rescuing all the people thing seemed natural to me. It's never occured to me that in StarTrek this scene might have looked differently.

I didn't think Jack was being sexist, but what he did do was tolerate someone else being sexist against one of his teammates. Sam actually asked to go back home, and later on he agrees with her, but by then it was too late. He let her be left out and isolated, which put her at risk. Either he should have said "She gets treated like the rest of us" (which is what he did with Teal'c in The Other SIde) or "she goes back to where people respect her." You don't let others disrespect your team members. He just didn't realize the seriousness of the situation, I think, because he thought it was funny.

Actually I'm inclined to agree with this assessment. I do think it's kinda OoC for Jack, but then again, with it being only the second (or 4th, depending how we count) episode they probably didn't have a handle on his character either, so I'm willing to overlook it.

And as for the whole regs debate, I'm with you guys. I honestly don't see any problems with the real relationship between them now when Jack isn't Sam's immidiate superior. Besides we don't really know technical details of the position he holds, do we? I mean I read a fanfic once where the Head of Homeworld Security was a presidential nomination, not strictly Air Force, and I think it would make sense if that was the case, and not only because of the ship.