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**VSS** · 01 April 2009, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post

IMHO, that was a goofy 'uber science' explanation from Daniel to match Teal'c's 'uber military' one about it being a trick to get information from her. More importantly, it was also a reference to a Star Trek episode in which they get trapped in a gas cloud and the gas cloud manifests itself as a child running around the ship. Thus DK, an avowed ST fan, is subtly and cleverly hanging-a-lantern on the fact he blatantly swiped the concept from a ST:TNG episode, making it impossible for all us ST fans out here who'd already started in with the "Hey! They did this on..." from really complaining. And I guess you could claim it's a tribute to ST:TNG too (imitation being the sincerest form of flattery).

I still think Grace is a manifestation of Sam's inner knowledge that she needs to integrate 'soldier/scientist/woman' as represented by the three SG-1 guys before she can truly achieve grace herself. Which we see her having done after S8 when she finally tells Jack why she's thankful to him (for being there) which she failed to do at the end of Grace which is just the beginning of her admitting she needs him in her life. And having found that balance after Threads, as I think we see onscreen, she's comfortable with all aspects of who she is and can be all three at once - soldier, scientist and woman.

To make a loooong story short.

/goes back into lurking

EDIT: I so do not!! I hate the games folder

Hi Jenn!

I agree with the bolded part but didn't know about the ST:TNG episode at all.

Cool.

For one thing, the advice Teal'c gives her doesn't quite seem to fit- it's a little extreme IIRC. As you said, it's "uber". And Daniel's advice is not quite right, either. So what was extreme, or not quite right, about what Jack told her? I think it was the bit about her feelings toward him. That's where the whole conversation went off the rails. Quite frankly, she was completely wrong about why she loved him. Unfortunately, she managed to integrate the extreme advice that Teal'c and Daniel gave her but took the conversation with Jack at face value.

As you say, it took a year for her to finally figure it out.

**JenniferJF** · 01 April 2009, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by VSS View Post

I agree with the bolded part but didn't know about the ST:TNG episode at all.

Cool.

For one thing, the advice Teal'c gives her doesn't quite seem to fit- it's a little extreme IIRC. As you said, it's "uber". And Daniel's advice is not quite right, either. So what was extreme, or not quite right, about what Jack told her? I think it was the bit about her feelings toward him. That's where the whole conversation went off the rails. Quite frankly, she was completely wrong about why she loved him. Unfortunately, she managed to integrate the extreme advice that Teal'c and Daniel gave her but took the conversation with Jack at face value.

As you say, it took a year for her to finally figure it out.

Teal'c's advice, actually, is loosely based on, I believe, a classic short story about someone who gets kidnapped by his enemy and made to believe he's safe and thus can gives out information to the enemy. That same short story, btw, has had it's premise ripped by almost every single detective/spy/science fiction franchise EVER. Which works well in this case as those stories would be in the back of Sam's mind and might come out under those circumstances.

Yet another example of how brilliant DK is and how well he can put together all the elements of a story. And he doesn't think he could write a novel...

/fangurls DK

**Buc252** · 01 April 2009, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by VSS View Post

That's a really good point. One other question- I can't really remember when she was promoted to Major, but Hammond actually was the one who did the promoting, correct?

So, the only real favoritism I see is Gen. Hammond delaying her promotion just long enough so that Jack could be the one to do it.

I can't recall either of them ever getting so much as a raised eyebrow from George who knew perfectly well how they felt. I guess I see this as a little parting gift from him.

Yes, it was Hammond, although Jack got to help put on her new clusters. I believe it was at the beginning of the episode Fair Game in S3 - that's the episode with Kronos and Yu, right?

I like the idea that Hammond delayed it so Jack could be the one to present her promotion to her. And yes, Hammond *so* knew how they felt about each other. In Entity, he went to Jack when he needed to speak to her "family" about taking her off life support. That says a LOT, in my book.

**Petra** · 02 April 2009, 05:57 AM

Originally posted by Buc252 View Post

Yes, it was Hammond, although Jack got to help put on her new clusters. I believe it was at the beginning of the episode Fair Game in S3 - that's the episode with Kronos and Yu, right?

Yes, that's right.

I like the idea that Hammond delayed it so Jack could be the one to present her promotion to her. And yes, Hammond *so* knew how they felt about each other. In Entity, he went to Jack when he needed to speak to her "family" about taking her off life support. That says a LOT, in my book.

Did I miss something? Was it in some deleted scenes? When did Hammond talk to Jack about Sam's life support?

In the episode Hammond said only that " they may have to make some tough decisions" (or something like that, I don't remember actual quote). Then Janet in the infirmary asked Jack if he knew that in her will Sam specified "no extraordinary means" (again, I don't remeber exact quote) and he confirmed that she had told him. That's it. Hammond's remark was after the briefing and before Sam was shot, so they couln't have been talking about taking her off life support.

On a slightly different topic: we covered Daniel, Teal'c, Janet and gen. Hammond, but do you think Jonas knew about Jack and Sam? He spent the whole year with them, was known for his observation skills plus I always thought that after Daniel's "death" Jack and Sam got closer together. So I'd say yes. What do you guys think?

**VSS** · 02 April 2009, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by col aga View Post

Yes, that's right.

Did I miss something? Was it in some deleted scenes? When did Hammond talk to Jack about Sam's life support?

In the episode Hammond said only that " they may have to make some tough decisions" (or something like that, I don't remember actual quote). Then Janet in the infirmary asked Jack if he knew that in her will Sam specified "no extraordinary means" (again, I don't remeber exact quote) and he confirmed that she had told him. That's it. Hammond's remark was after the briefing and before Sam was shot, so they couln't have been talking about taking her off life support.

On a slightly different topic: we covered Daniel, Teal'c, Janet and gen. Hammond, but do you think Jonas knew about Jack and Sam? He spent the whole year with them, was known for his observation skills plus I always thought that after Daniel's "death" Jack and Sam got closer together. So I'd say yes. What do you guys think?

Janet can't make the decision to withdraw life support on her own. She MUST talk to either family members or someone specified in the living will to which she alluded if any of those people can be found. And one of those people was apparently Jack. That was actually a really significant scene with him there in the infirmary, because it was well within his power to say "No" and Janet would have to live with that. You're right about what Hammond said, but he definitely knew how they felt. Well, he would have since he'd know the whole story behind D & C.

As for Jonas, I don't know. He seemed to more or less be absent during the few shippy bits in Season 6. Which doesn't really surprise me that Sam and Jack would want it that way. Neither one of them are likely to let their guard down around the new guy, I guess.

**Petra** · 02 April 2009, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by VSS View Post

Janet can't make the decision to withdraw life support on her own. She MUST talk to either family members or someone specified in the living will to which she alluded if any of those people can be found. And one of those people was apparently Jack. That was actually a really significant scene with him there in the infirmary, because it was well within his power to say "No" and Janet would have to live with that. You're right about what Hammond said, but he definitely knew how they felt. Well, he would have since he'd know the whole story behind D & C.

Yeah, I know that and I agree.

I just thought there was some other scene where specifically Hammond and Jack talk about Sam's life support, because that's what Buc252 wrote.
Btw, I didn't mean to sound negative or stand-offish or whatever, I was just curious.

As for Jonas, I don't know. He seemed to more or less be absent during the few shippy bits in Season 6. Which doesn't really surprise me that Sam and Jack would want it that way. Neither one of them are likely to let their guard down around the new guy, I guess.

True, but he was there during the events of Frozen/Abyss for example, and while Sam kept her cool in the episodes, I assume there was a time when she let her guard down, and Jonas was anything if not peceptive..

**VSS** · 02 April 2009, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by col aga View Post

Yeah, I know that and I agree.

I just thought there was some other scene where specifically Hammond and Jack talk about Sam's life support, because that's what Buc252 wrote.
Btw, I didn't mean to sound negative or stand-offish or whatever, I was just curious.

I, for one, never thought you sounded negative or standoffish. But, then again, I'm the queen of negativity and standoffishness.

So I'm sorry if I lead you to believe that you were.

True, but he was there during the events of Frozen/Abyss for example, and while Sam kept her cool in the episodes, I assume there was a time when she let her guard down, and Jonas was anything if not peceptive..

You know, I thought about Frozen, and Abyss, and Metamorphosis... but it seems to me as if Jonas just wasn't around at the key points. Take Frozen, for example. He was so wrapped up in Aiyana, and then she died moments before Sam convinced Jack to accept the symbiote, I wonder how much of that scene he actually processed. And in Metamorphosis, he's with Niirti (I love the way he reels her in and then totally dissess her. Love that scene to bits!) when Jack is trying to take care of Sam. He's not there when Sam is with Jack at the end of Abyss which is the only scene (IMHO) where she acts more concerned than the rest of the gang. Of course, he is really perceptive- and not only that it's in his best interests to figure out the team dynamics right away, especially Jack's own personal dynamics. He would definitely be paying attention.

So, it makes sense, even if I just didn't see it. I'm just sorry they decided to send him back to Kelowna. If they'd kept him, Seasons 8, 9 and 10 would have been better. We'd still have had a 4-person team and no need for new characters who didn't seem to fit as well.

**Toomi** · 02 April 2009, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by col aga View Post

Yes, that's right.

Did I miss something? Was it in some deleted scenes? When did Hammond talk to Jack about Sam's life support?

In the episode Hammond said only that " they may have to make some tough decisions" (or something like that, I don't remember actual quote). Then Janet in the infirmary asked Jack if he knew that in her will Sam specified "no extraordinary means" (again, I don't remeber exact quote) and he confirmed that she had told him. That's it. Hammond's remark was after the briefing and before Sam was shot, so they couln't have been talking about taking her off life support.

On a slightly different topic: we covered Daniel, Teal'c, Janet and gen. Hammond, but do you think Jonas knew about Jack and Sam? He spent the whole year with them, was known for his observation skills plus I always thought that after Daniel's "death" Jack and Sam got closer together. So I'd say yes. What do you guys think?

Somewhere in my mind I seem to be thinking that in Entity Jack was, uh, I'm not sure of the word. The person who's in charge of her when she's in a coma or something. If it gets to a point where extraordinary means are necessary that person is the one who pulls the plug so to speak. Am I making sense? Sorry, I don't know the word.

ETA: VSS answered it so much better

As for Jonas, I'm sure he picked up on it quickly, especially during Frozen. After that you get Abyss and Sam would've been beating herself up pretty hard for Jack not being there. Ohhh... then you've got Paradise Lost and Metamorphisis... so many eps with nice shippy bits in them.

I'm not sure if Jonas ever comments on them but I'm sure that he and Teal'c discussed it. (Well, more like Jonas talking, Teal'c responding in eyebrow) Jonas may have not understood why they couldn't be together, and Teal'c may have explained it to him.

**Buc252** · 02 April 2009, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by VSS View Post

I, for one, never thought you sounded negative or standoffish. But, then again, I'm the queen of negativity and standoffishness.

So I'm sorry if I lead you to believe that you were.

You know, I thought about Frozen, and Abyss, and Metamorphosis... but it seems to me as if Jonas just wasn't around at the key points. Take Frozen, for example. He was so wrapped up in Aiyana, and then she died moments before Sam convinced Jack to accept the symbiote, I wonder how much of that scene he actually processed. And in Metamorphosis, he's with Niirti (I love the way he reels her in and then totally dissess her. Love that scene to bits!) when Jack is trying to take care of Sam. He's not there when Sam is with Jack at the end of Abyss which is the only scene (IMHO) where she acts more concerned than the rest of the gang. Of course, he is really perceptive- and not only that it's in his best interests to figure out the team dynamics right away, especially Jack's own personal dynamics. He would definitely be paying attention.

So, it makes sense, even if I just didn't see it. I'm just sorry they decided to send him back to Kelowna. If they'd kept him, Seasons 8, 9 and 10 would have been better. We'd still have had a 4-person team and no need for new characters who didn't seem to fit as well.

I'm sure Jonas knew - he was around for enough, especially when Jack was dying. And he's a smart guy...

And I agree, he should never have been put off the series. If they can have a five-man team in S9 and S10, there's no reason they couldn't have had a five-man team in S7 and S8, too. It's not like he and Daniel really had the same specialty - he was working out of his own, diplomacy, because he felt guilty that Daniel wasn't there to do his work. So he taught him self to stand in. So Daniel was the linguist and archeologist, and Jonas would be the diplomat. <shrug> They were soooooo good as a team, it's a shame TPTB had to shaft Corin and the Jonas fans the way they did.

**Luvnjoe** · 03 April 2009, 06:59 PM

Post this over here too, for discussion:

Spoiler:

www.rdanderson.com

**digitalred93** · 03 April 2009, 08:41 PM

Look at all the awesome discussions I missed while I dealt with a week of total ridiculousness on the job front. Truly, if I'd had a P90, I woulda used it!

I, too, regret the absence of Jonas. I think he brought a refreshing dynamic to the team (and the series). I liked how both Jack and Sam worked with him and I though Teal'c got a stronger presence on the team because of Jonas as well. The balance just seemed healthier, IMHO. It's funny that you've all been discussing this because I've been rewatching Season 6 this week on DVD. So many of the episodes were well written and there was a definite fresh element of excitement that I found missing in most of season 5.

Here's a question regarding the latest round of comments from RDA and AT as well as our knowledge (per Joe Mallozzi and Brad Wright) that there will be a romantic scene in the next SG-1 flick...
(Note, I'm hiding a few pieces in case you haven't yet seen the finale for SGA or the spoilers for SGU)

There's been so much concern about Sam and Jack following the regs. Obviously,

Spoiler:

With all this in mind, and wanting to continue to respect the Air Force regs, is it possible that the fleet of ships will be moved into a newly formed branch of military - not Air Force or Navy (traditionally the two branches which do the most flying) but something new all together? If that happened,

Spoiler:

wouldn't it then be 'kosher' for her and Jack to get together (ala the 3rd film)?

Looking forward to your thoughts!

ETA: Is there a reason why, since the threads were renamed, that this thread doesn't show up in the "similar threads" list at the bottom of the Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread?

**VSS** · 04 April 2009, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by luvnjack View Post

Post this over here too, for discussion:

www.rdanderson.com

Thanks! Just a reminder to everyone to keep stuff about the movies and SGU in spoilers. We've been good so far.

Originally posted by digitalred93 View Post

Look at all the awesome discussions I missed while I dealt with a week of total ridiculousness on the job front. Truly, if I'd had a P90, I woulda used it!

I, too, regret the absence of Jonas. I think he brought a refreshing dynamic to the team (and the series). I liked how both Jack and Sam worked with him and I though Teal'c got a stronger presence on the team because of Jonas as well. The balance just seemed healthier, IMHO. It's funny that you've all been discussing this because I've been rewatching Season 6 this week on DVD. So many of the episodes were well written and there was a definite fresh element of excitement that I found missing in most of season 5.

Here's a question regarding the latest round of comments from RDA and AT as well as our knowledge (per Joe Mallozzi and Brad Wright) that there will be a romantic scene in the next SG-1 flick...
(Note, I'm hiding a few pieces in case you haven't yet seen the finale for SGA or the spoilers for SGU)

There's been so much concern about Sam and Jack following the regs. Obviously,

Spoiler:

With all this in mind, and wanting to continue to respect the Air Force regs, is it possible that the fleet of ships will be moved into a newly formed branch of military - not Air Force or Navy (traditionally the two branches which do the most flying) but something new all together? If that happened,

Spoiler:

wouldn't it then be 'kosher' for her and Jack to get together (ala the 3rd film)?

Looking forward to your thoughts!

ETA: Is there a reason why, since the threads were renamed, that this thread doesn't show up in the "similar threads" list at the bottom of the Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread?

Sorry about the job! Like Jack, I retired very early. Unlike Jack, I'm still retired.

I haven't a clue about the threads list, but I'm sure if you ask the mods they'll fix it.

S/J wouldn't be breaking the regs now since they're not working together. We ought to keep a copy of one of Seahen's explanations- she's been in the service- I know better than to ask her to explain it again!

(Not because she'd shoot me. Well, she might).

I'm going to repost from the other thread because I wonder how this whole issue got started, myself:

Being a more recent fan, and not immersed in fandom for over a decade like some poor long-suffering shippers (bless their hearts), I've come to the conclusion that this whole COC thing is a fandom meme based on things the actors have said. And maybe TPTB buy into it, or maybe they don't, but it isn't based in any kind of actual USAF reality from what I've heard and read. He just can't be her supervising officer, which he is not. And that's a pretty simple concept.

We actually know very little about what the writers and producers think, when it comes right down to it- except for JM who's on record as saying they've been together since Season 8 and MG who pretty much caught himself before he could say it in the commentary for Trio.

And it's TPTB's opinions that count- more precisely BW and RCC at this point.

This is what bugs me about fandom. We've created our own little reality based on fanfics, rumors and offhand remarks from behind the scenes. Which usually isn't a huge problem when the answer to the question comes with the next episode- but when it goes on for literally years with no resolution the speculation spins out of control.

In medicine we judge scientific evidence that something is true based on the levels of evidence with Level A being the most reliable. What's onscreen canon to me is Level A. Level B is what TPTB have to say. Level C is everything else.

We don't have a lot of facts to go on, but what we do have suggests that S/J are together. It may be little, but it's Level A. Jenn used to keep a list of all these moments somewhere, I wish I had it but I don't.

Level A evidence to the contrary: The little almost kiss in Ripple Effect, if you don't chalk that up to Jolinar. Which I do.

And now we have a little bit of Level B to back it up, thanks to Joe.

And that is all there is.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it- and if TPTB have half the talent that I think they do, they'll stick to it, too. Because it's their story.

Now, how TPTB want to write this is up to them. I don't think we'll see any big love scene until after Jack is retired because this is a sensitive issue and the show has always had close ties to the armed forces. That's okay with me, as long as I get my BHK in the end.

**VSS** · 04 April 2009, 01:09 AM

Okay, the alert for the SG-1 Shipper Rewatch is now at

DEFCON 3

And I need help from my allies!

Anyone who wants to help with the planning or write a little blurb for a Season 1 episode, please let me know. I have the Stargate movie and the first 4 eps taken care of, but definitely need help after that since I'm going to be away from internet access on and off this summer.

Anyone who has already taken an episode for later seasons, don't worry, I've got the list.

**silly sally** · 04 April 2009, 07:07 AM

Originally posted by digitalred93 View Post

Look at all the awesome discussions I missed while I dealt with a week of total ridiculousness on the job front. Truly, if I'd had a P90, I woulda used it!

I, too, regret the absence of Jonas. I think he brought a refreshing dynamic to the team (and the series). I liked how both Jack and Sam worked with him and I though Teal'c got a stronger presence on the team because of Jonas as well. The balance just seemed healthier, IMHO. It's funny that you've all been discussing this because I've been rewatching Season 6 this week on DVD. So many of the episodes were well written and there was a definite fresh element of excitement that I found missing in most of season 5.

Here's a question regarding the latest round of comments from RDA and AT as well as our knowledge (per Joe Mallozzi and Brad Wright) that there will be a romantic scene in the next SG-1 flick...
(Note, I'm hiding a few pieces in case you haven't yet seen the finale for SGA or the spoilers for SGU)

There's been so much concern about Sam and Jack following the regs. Obviously,

Spoiler:

With all this in mind, and wanting to continue to respect the Air Force regs, is it possible that the fleet of ships will be moved into a newly formed branch of military - not Air Force or Navy (traditionally the two branches which do the most flying) but something new all together? If that happened,

Spoiler:

wouldn't it then be 'kosher' for her and Jack to get together (ala the 3rd film)?

Looking forward to your thoughts!

ETA: Is there a reason why, since the threads were renamed, that this thread doesn't show up in the "similar threads" list at the bottom of the Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread?

I can't stress enough how much I hope the 3rd movie will not be a "getting together" one! I really hope they got together soon after "Threads" during S8/S9 hiatus; if they did not then they're truly idiots...

**digitalred93** · 04 April 2009, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by silly sally View Post

I can't stress enough how much I hope the 3rd movie will not be a "getting together" one! I really hope they got together soon after "Threads" during S8/S9 hiatus; if they did not then they're truly idiots...

I've been thinking about this (perhaps too much!) and you gotta wonder why Brad Wright removed that scene from Trio. As Joe Mallozzi's hinted, I suspect that BW wants these two to come together under BW's terms.

Now, do I think they've been dating? Probably. But even within that Trio scene, Sam seems hesitant to admit who she's dating. This makes me suspect that Sam and Jack are keeping things under wraps. Knowing Jack's character as well as we do, I have to wonder if he's uncomfortable with either a) people getting the wrong idea because he doesn't want Sam's career questioned, or b) his own insecurities due to his past with Sara and how that blew up in his face.

So again, yes - I think they're dating. But no, I don't think they're 'together' in the soulful way they should be. And quite frankly, that's good, IMHO. I want that final connection to happen in front of my eyes (i.e. on screen in the 3rd film). I want to SEE Jack make the final realization of just how important the two of them are to him, to her (and heck! to us, too!). I want Teal'c to nudge him, I want Daniel to not know and then I want to see his happy surprise when he finds out. In other words, I want to see the discovery.

Otherwise, all the fun of this amazing duo is just gone.

Again, this is just my opinion. For what it's worth.

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