Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hlndncr]

I would definitely agree - I'm only recommending a starting place. I could very much imagine Mark married to a peacemaker. I think the only time I'm turned off is when Mark is made out to be (as you described) bitter about Pete and Sam not working out. I'd like to think that part of what healed their relationship was the natural mellowing that age (generally) brings.

Who knows? Maybe Mark eventually took the fam up to Jack's cabin! (Or am I stretching too much?)

No, I don't think you're stretching. I think his bitterness over the whole debacle wouldn't be long-term. In fact, I think it would mask some of his deeper hurt over not being there when his dad died. But as you point out, we do mellow with age. I think Jack would have no problem winning over the whole family, eventually. When I say that I see Mark as always being on the outside it's just that Sam will always have this special bond with her team family that would always be seperate from her relationship with Mark and his family.

[fems]

I think Mark's feelings over Sam and Pete's breakup depends on how much Sam tells him about it (and her relationship to Pete), her feelings for Jack, how close Pete and Mark really are (considering they live in different states and it's never specified how they met) and what Pete told Mark about the breakup.

I really feel they could have done more with Mark in the show, considering he plays an important role in Sam's life, as well as Jacob's (post Seth). It would have been nice to know what he did for a living, what his wife's name is and what the children are called. All we get is that one glimpse of him in Seth and a few mentions of his name over the years...

[hedwig]

I think Mark's feelings over Sam and Pete's breakup depends on how much Sam tells him about it (and her relationship to Pete), her feelings for Jack, how close Pete and Mark really are (considering they live in different states and it's never specified how they met) and what Pete told Mark about the breakup.

I really feel they could have done more with Mark in the show, considering he plays an important role in Sam's life, as well as Jacob's (post Seth). It would have been nice to know what he did for a living, what his wife's name is and what the children are called. All we get is that one glimpse of him in Seth and a few mentions of his name over the years...

I agree with all of this. Plus, I'm one of those that don't like how Mark gets demonized (along with Pete) in so many fics. I figure that given there's about 5 years between the "reunion" in Seth and Chimera, that Mark has had plenty of time to come to some sort of balance with himself over Jacob and the Air Force and all the stuff that he was angry about. And since Jacob several times asks about Mark and the kids, and comments about going to see them in a couple of episodes, I don't feel there's still much of a rift that needs mending by the time Chimera comes along, nor when Sam and Pete break up. Mark is grown up enough by the time they meet in "Seth" to realize just how important a family is, especially since he now has one, and is probably thinking about how it would be if his own children did to him what he did to Jacob (and Sam), and is willing to let go of the past.

[Pol]

Within the Serpent's Grasp

I love that when the team has to make a decision to disobey orders to possibly save the planet they each make that choice for themselves, but their loyalty to one another is absolute. Daniel is determined to go because he's seen the consequences if they do nothing. Teal'c is in the fight to the end regardless, and he would never let Daniel face it alone. Jack too, despite his skepticism is not willing to take the chance he is wrong and would never let his friends face it alone.

Then they all turn to Sam, the only one without a personal stake in the fight. She's the one who is still thinking about orders and the consequences of violating them. I love Jack for trusting her to make the right decision on her own. "It's not an order Captain." She knows the stakes. She knows they want her with them. It is probably the hardest decision of her still young career. She says she's going. She never says why, but I think it's because she loves her team and they need her.

Later when Jack wants to go back for Skaara Sam questions him on making an emotional decision. He doesn't disagree with her. But then I think ultimately, the whole mission was an emotional decision for each one of them. She drops it because I think she knows there is no way to change his mind and she wouldn't stand in his way to save someone so important to him.

Sam and Jack have come such a long way from that first meeting in the briefing room when he didn't want her on his team and she didn't think much of him personally.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/.../Emotional.jpg

RE: Bolded...

Later, Daniel questions Sam for making an emotional decision to wait to blow up the ship, too, and she does it because she wants to give Jack a chance. I'm working from memory here, not a recent rewatch, but I remember that being the basis of that ep's Campfire.

[hlndncr]

RE: Bolded...

Later, Daniel questions Sam for making an emotional decision to wait to blow up the ship, too, and she does it because she wants to give Jack a chance. I'm working from memory here, not a recent rewatch, but I remember that being the basis of that ep's Campfire.

Hmmm, don't remember that. (Must reread those Campfires I suppose. ) Will have to watch for it.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

after the events of within the serpent's grasp/the serpent's lair, what kind of punishment do you think SG-1 received for disobeying orders? I remember reading the aftershock that rachel 500 wrote for those episodes and they only had to stay on base and help out with the three new sg teams that were being assigned. (SGs 10 through 12)

[hedwig]

after the events of within the serpent's grasp/the serpent's lair, what kind of punishment do you think SG-1 received for disobeying orders? I remember reading the aftershock that rachel 500 wrote for those episodes and they only had to stay on base and help out with the three new sg teams that were being assigned. (SGs 10 through 12)

I think if there was any punishment, it was more like a slap on the wrist and nothing else, given that they had literally saved the world. And then Sam and Jack got medals for their actions. They may have gotten some sort of notation in their files about disobeying orders, but I doubt there was anything worse.

[hedwig]

RE: Bolded...

Later, Daniel questions Sam for making an emotional decision to wait to blow up the ship, too, and she does it because she wants to give Jack a chance. I'm working from memory here, not a recent rewatch, but I remember that being the basis of that ep's Campfire.

Hmmm, don't remember that. (Must reread those Campfires I suppose. ) Will have to watch for it.

From the transcript from the episode:

SAM: We're going to go after them.

DANIEL: Wait a minute, when are we going to blow up the ship?

SAM: We'll detonate only as a last resort.

DANIEL: Listen, I want to save them as much as you do, but if we get captured or killed, there's nobody left to blow the ship before it gets to Earth.

SAM: That's why I'm setting a timer. If we don't deactivate in 24 hours it will go automatically. Okay?

DANIEL: Okay.

Unless there's another scene I'm not remembering, I'm pretty sure this is the scene being referred to.

[hlndncr]

The Serpent's Lair

For the most part the team is all business, working together to save the world no matter the cost to themselves. But all good shippers know how to savor those little moments that hint at something more.

So when Sam bites Jack's hand his initial reaction is startled, but then quickly tempered by admiration. I think one thing Jack has always appreciated about Sam is her spunk. That's why I find that little interplay so sweet.

Then as they are in the gliders Sam is all business, listing all the problems, but Jack simply tells her to look up. She is after all in space for the first time. This is her dream. Sometimes it's OK to forget about the logistics and the reality and just enjoy a spectacular sunset, especially considering they just saved the world. One thing Jack does for Sam is help her to let go and just have fun.

Then at the very end, as the camera pulls away Jack gives Sam a big, full out hug. His arm lingers around her shoulder, then he drops it for just a second before putting around her again, like he just doesn't want to let go of that moment. Daniel's alive; the world is safe; and he got to hug Carter. Not a bad day at all.

[Akamaimom]

I've always enjoyed this story arc. I honestly don't think that they get any kind of reprimand at all. They DID, after all, save the world. They might have to apologize to the people they knocked out in the process of the plan, but i don't think that Hammond would reprimand them for their actions.

[Nynaeve506]

I've always enjoyed this story arc. I honestly don't think that they get any kind of reprimand at all. They DID, after all, save the world. They might have to apologize to the people they knocked out in the process of the plan, but i don't think that Hammond would reprimand them for their actions.

I find it highly unlikely as well given the way Hammond's character was written. Disobeying orders is a huge deal, but the Earth was in imminent danger and the heart & soul of a military officer is to protect and defend. The only person who would have had a problem is Kinsey and if there had been anyway to have a small contingent of Jaffa show up on his doorstep *cough*

^^ I love the early unguarded Sam/Jack dynamic as the 'ship is developing. It's heartbreaking how badly it effects them as time goes on.

[Kate1013]

^^ I love the early unguarded Sam/Jack dynamic as the 'ship is developing. It's heartbreaking how badly it effects them as time goes on.

This is so true! Back then it was so... looking for a better word than innocent, but you get what I mean - untainted, natural and no sense that what they're feeling is wrong because they don't realise it yet.

[SaraBahama]

Within the Serpent's Grasp

I love that when the team has to make a decision to disobey orders to possibly save the planet they each make that choice for themselves, but their loyalty to one another is absolute. Daniel is determined to go because he's seen the consequences if they do nothing. Teal'c is in the fight to the end regardless, and he would never let Daniel face it alone. Jack too, despite his skepticism is not willing to take the chance he is wrong and would never let his friends face it alone.

Then they all turn to Sam, the only one without a personal stake in the fight. She's the one who is still thinking about orders and the consequences of violating them. I love Jack for trusting her to make the right decision on her own. "It's not an order Captain." She knows the stakes. She knows they want her with them. It is probably the hardest decision of her still young career. She says she's going. She never says why, but I think it's because she loves her team and they need her.

Later when Jack wants to go back for Skaara Sam questions him on making an emotional decision. He doesn't disagree with her. But then I think ultimately, the whole mission was an emotional decision for each one of them. She drops it because I think she knows there is no way to change his mind and she wouldn't stand in his way to save someone so important to him.

Sam and Jack have come such a long way from that first meeting in the briefing room when he didn't want her on his team and she didn't think much of him personally.

The Serpent's Lair

For the most part the team is all business, working together to save the world no matter the cost to themselves. But all good shippers know how to savor those little moments that hint at something more.

So when Sam bites Jack's hand his initial reaction is startled, but then quickly tempered by admiration. I think one thing Jack has always appreciated about Sam is her spunk. That's why I find that little interplay so sweet.

Then as they are in the gliders Sam is all business, listing all the problems, but Jack simply tells her to look up. She is after all in space for the first time. This is her dream. Sometimes it's OK to forget about the logistics and the reality and just enjoy a spectacular sunset, especially considering they just saved the world. One thing Jack does for Sam is help her to let go and just have fun.

Then at the very end, as the camera pulls away Jack gives Sam a big, full out hug. His arm lingers around her shoulder, then he drops it for just a second before putting around her again, like he just doesn't want to let go of that moment. Daniel's alive; the world is safe; and he got to hug Carter. Not a bad day at all.

This is so true! Back then it was so... looking for a better word than innocent, but you get what I mean - untainted, natural and no sense that what they're feeling is wrong because they don't realise it yet.

I really enjoyed this rewatch. The dynamic was excellent -it was hard to watch Jack leave Daniel behind, and Sam & T. not argue the point, but these 2 eps probably show Jack's heart more open than it had been previously. Leaving Daniel, helping Sam stop and appreciate the sight of Earth hanging above them, and the reunion at the end all reveal this about him.

Kate - I concur...your comment is so well worded, I have nothing more to say (but my heart does echo your statement).

I don't think Mark is a bad guy, but I just never got the feeling he and Sam completely saw eye to eye.
As Nynaeve pointed out in Seth we learn that they were estranged.
It's hard to reconcile her statement that she hasn't seen him since his kids were born with what she said in CL:

The way I do it in my mind is that I imagine Mark's wife is a peacemaker type who has tried before to get them together. She keeps Sam in touch with the kids as much as possible and is the one who made sure Sam had their number. Mark was stubborn and refused to see her, but didn't want to shut her out entirely by refusing to let her be a part of his kids lives.

After Seth I think the relationship between them thaws and they do start to keep in touch. I just don't see them as being extremely close. First, there's the distance. Then there's the secret and unpredictable nature of Sam's job. I think the fact that she is in the military and her and Jacob still have this connection and secret that they can't share with Mark keeps him on the outside.

When he sets Sam up with and it appears to go well I think that is important to Mark because it's this connection to her life that he didn't have before. I can see him pulling for . Not in an overbearing way, but just being hopeful that it would work out. (I know that one time when I set my brother up with the sister of a good friend it help bring us closer together for a while and I was disappointed when it ultimately didn't work out.)

I don't think he was really angry and bitter with her when she broke it off with but I do think he was confused and maybe even a little hurt. After all, he really didn't know about Jack or the rest of her life. It would have felt to Mark that she was rejecting him in a way. And after learning that she chose to be with Jack (someone very much like her father and very disconnected from Mark's own way of life) I think he would be hurt and perhaps even a little angry, especially when you add the fact that he wasn't there for their father's death and Jacob was trying to steer Sam clear of whom he did not like (although I'm not sure Mark would ever know that).

I think in the end Mark would accept Sam's decision to be with Jack and be happy for her once he sees how happy she is. But I think he would always continue to feel somewhat disconnected to her and on the outside, which is almost inevitable given her the nature of her work and how privite she is about her life.

EVERYBODY: thanks for such great Mark discussion (I'm filing quite a bit of that in my head for future ficting.

BTW: we're on the first 5 eps of Season 2 for the rewatch, aren't we? or are we on 6-10??

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

First five.

[muziqaz]

BTW: we're on the first 5 eps of Season 2 for the rewatch, aren't we? or are we on 6-10??

I have lost the schedule, last month I was clearly way ahead of schedule of rewatch and I am now somewhere in the middle of the second season. Done a break, to let everyone else to catch up Oh well, my 1st rewatch, wont happen again in next one