Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[hedwig]

What was the episode where we can see Sam showing the photo of Jack from Singularity?
I am amazed how you guys manage to remember those details from various episodes

Actually, Sam wasn't "showing" the photo of Jack. We just got to see it in her luggage as she was unpacking in her new quarters on Atlantis. There's also a picture of Jack and Sam fishing. The last scene from Moebius, with just the two of them - she has a framed photo of that, too; but that one is displayed on one of the shelves behind her desk in her office.

[majorsal]

Actually, Sam wasn't "showing" the photo of Jack. We just got to see it in her luggage as she was unpacking in her new quarters on Atlantis. There's also a picture of Jack and Sam fishing. The last scene from Moebius, with just the two of them - she has a framed photo of that, too; but that one is displayed on one of the shelves behind her desk in her office.

speaking of sam's pics...

i wonder why the ptb didn't have jack showing his sam pics in his office, in any of his sgu appearances?

~i have one guess why, but it's loaded with snark

[iiradned]

speaking of sam's pics...

i wonder why the ptb didn't have jack showing his sam pics in his office, in any of his sgu appearances?

~i have one guess why, but it's loaded with snark

Snark away!

[Kate1013]

Tin Man


I do think that the robots really didn't face an absolute tragedy. Yes, it was probably very hard for them knowing that they could never return to earth. But they had each other and in many ways they were their only family. (Sam is the exception I suppose, but she was estranged from her brother and father at this point; so really just as much on her own as the guys.) And of course, no regulations so robo!Sam and robo!Jack had possibilities that the real Jack and Sam had to wait years to explore.

Re the bolded, is this ever actually mentioned in an episode? Because in Cold Lazurus Sam clearly mentions to FakeJack that she misses her niece and nephew and used to see them regularly until her brother moved away. Which to me implies that she has a pretty normal relationship with her brother. And she was quite instrumental in getting her brother and father to reconcile (after she herself had reconciled with her father) which I assume would only happen if her and her brother got along.

Sorry, no real dig at you, but the whole way Mark Carter is perceived, especially in fanfic, is one of my pet peeves

[Nynaeve506]

Sam's strained relationship with Mark is from "Seth":

CARTER (speaking to Selmak)
Yeah, well Mark isn't exactly rushing into my father's arms either. Even when we thought Dad was going to die, he wouldn't take my call.

and

CARTER (speaking to Jacob)
I haven't seen him since either of his kids were born. I guess he paints me with the same brush as he does you.

[majorsal]

Snark away!

snark away?

b/c in season 4 of atlantis, joe mallozzi and amanda wanted to confirm the s/j relationship... i don't think there was any 'wanting' from the sgu peeps... :/

[Nynaeve506]

snark away?

b/c in season 4 of atlantis, joe mallozzi and amanda wanted to confirm the s/j relationship... i don't think there was any 'wanting' from the sgu peeps... :/

I happen to *be* one of those "SGU Peeps" and given that this is an S/J Discussion thread, I'd ask that you not take shots at those of us who happened to have enjoyed the most recent incarnation of Stargate.

[majorsal]

I happen to *be* one of those "SGU Peeps" and given that this is an S/J Discussion thread, I'd ask that you not take shots at those of us who happened to have enjoyed the most recent incarnation of Stargate.

the sgu peeps i was talking about where the ptb. just reading my post, you can see that i was talking about the ppl making it (like how i mentioned joe and amanda from sga)

[hlndncr]

There but for the Grace of God

Our first look at Sam and Jack as a real couple. I love the insight this gives us into how they would work together when they get together after Threads.

Jack's the general in charge and Sam and Jack are engaged. And even though Sam is not in the military, I still see her as basically like our Sam. She is smart, determined, and fearless (maybe slightly more feminine). Their interaction is professional and focused. She calls him "Sir" the whole time. It's not until the very end that they only briefly and rather circumspectly indulge in their personal feelings with a sweet and emotional goodbye. She sends him off essentially to his death and he expects her to escape and carry on the fight.

This is how I think Sam and Jack are now. Very professional and focused on the mission when they are working. No one but those who know them best would recognize the deep bond of affection they share. They are not the kind to indulge in their personal feelings in front of others except in the subtlest of ways, like occasionally using their first names to comfort one another.

Seeing this reality leaves me feeling very comfortable that the mostly professional interactions we see between Sam and Jack in our reality in later seasons are not an indication that they did not get together. I just don't think they would fundamentally change how they would behave in public. It would be out of character for them. As this alternate reality demonstrates they would reserve their affection for private moments (or the end of the world), and still be committed to the good of the planet and supporting one another in making the difficult sacrifices.

I love this episode because it shows me how perfect Sam and Jack can be as a couple.

[hlndncr]

Politics

OK, any ep that has Jack in dress blues for most of the time gets a big thumbs up in my book!

And the funnest part of the ep is Sam and Jack's reaction to Daniel's revelation that they were engaged in the alternate reality.

I think the two of them definitely get their wires crossed on that one. At first they are both stunned. Then Jack can't seem to let it go. He's absolutely incredulous, but his only objection seems to be that it is against regulations. That leaves me with the impression that he's definitely considered it. Maybe not marriage just yet, but Sam and no regulations has crossed his mind.

Sam on the other hand seems almost offended that he questions it so strenuously. "It is theoretically possible!" So she retreats to her comfort zone -- physics.

Personally, I think at this point Jack is more aware of his attraction to Sam than vice versa. That's one of the reasons he gets so caught on engaged issue. I think Sam isn't ready to examine her own attraction so tries to plow through it. But now the idea has been planted . . .

[hlndncr]

Within the Serpent's Grasp

I love that when the team has to make a decision to disobey orders to possibly save the planet they each make that choice for themselves, but their loyalty to one another is absolute. Daniel is determined to go because he's seen the consequences if they do nothing. Teal'c is in the fight to the end regardless, and he would never let Daniel face it alone. Jack too, despite his skepticism is not willing to take the chance he is wrong and would never let his friends face it alone.

Then they all turn to Sam, the only one without a personal stake in the fight. She's the one who is still thinking about orders and the consequences of violating them. I love Jack for trusting her to make the right decision on her own. "It's not an order Captain." She knows the stakes. She knows they want her with them. It is probably the hardest decision of her still young career. She says she's going. She never says why, but I think it's because she loves her team and they need her.

Later when Jack wants to go back for Skaara Sam questions him on making an emotional decision. He doesn't disagree with her. But then I think ultimately, the whole mission was an emotional decision for each one of them. She drops it because I think she knows there is no way to change his mind and she wouldn't stand in his way to save someone so important to him.

Sam and Jack have come such a long way from that first meeting in the briefing room when he didn't want her on his team and she didn't think much of him personally.

[hlndncr]

Sorry, no real dig at you, but the whole way Mark Carter is perceived, especially in fanfic, is one of my pet peeves

I don't think Mark is a bad guy, but I just never got the feeling he and Sam completely saw eye to eye.

As Nynaeve pointed out in Seth we learn that they were estranged.

It's hard to reconcile her statement that she hasn't seen him since his kids were born with what she said in CL:

I'm an auntie, myself. My brother moved to San Diego, so I don't get to see them much…He has two kids now, boy and a girl. I miss 'em like hell; don't get there near enough.

The way I do it in my mind is that I imagine Mark's wife is a peacemaker type who has tried before to get them together. She keeps Sam in touch with the kids as much as possible and is the one who made sure Sam had their number. Mark was stubborn and refused to see her, but didn't want to shut her out entirely by refusing to let her be a part of his kids lives.

After Seth I think the relationship between them thaws and they do start to keep in touch. I just don't see them as being extremely close. First, there's the distance. Then there's the secret and unpredictable nature of Sam's job. I think the fact that she is in the military and her and Jacob still have this connection and secret that they can't share with Mark keeps him on the outside.

When he sets Sam up with and it appears to go well I think that is important to Mark because it's this connection to her life that he didn't have before. I can see him pulling for . Not in an overbearing way, but just being hopeful that it would work out. (I know that one time when I set my brother up with the sister of a good friend it help bring us closer together for a while and I was disappointed when it ultimately didn't work out.)

I don't think he was really angry and bitter with her when she broke it off with but I do think he was confused and maybe even a little hurt. After all, he really didn't know about Jack or the rest of her life. It would have felt to Mark that she was rejecting him in a way. And after learning that she chose to be with Jack (someone very much like her father and very disconnected from Mark's own way of life) I think he would be hurt and perhaps even a little angry, especially when you add the fact that he wasn't there for their father's death and Jacob was trying to steer Sam clear of whom he did not like (although I'm not sure Mark would ever know that).

I think in the end Mark would accept Sam's decision to be with Jack and be happy for her once he sees how happy she is. But I think he would always continue to feel somewhat disconnected to her and on the outside, which is almost inevitable given her the nature of her work and how privite she is about her life.

[Nynaeve506]

The difficulty with Mark Carter as a character in any story is that we know very little about him with regards to canon. Frankly, if someone were wanting to deal with her brother in a story and needed someplace to start, I'd highly recommend looking up the psyche of the military brat. It's not at all surprising that given their history and growing up, Sam would join up or that Mark would be hostile. Speaking from my own experience there are a lot of conflicting emotions.

I found an essay that succinctly and beautifully explains the struggle:

We will always feel like outsiders to civilians, and while we consider ourselves Military we are outsiders there as well. As children in school, we were often moved to a new assignment, and the other students had known each other since kindergarten and had grown up together, thereby making us the outsider.

As adults we cannot even answer the simple question at a dinner party, "So, where are you from?" We no longer can carry a Military ID, and we are no longer welcomed on the Military Installation, and in fact, the Military does not even recognize our existence. (The Lost Ones)

[hlndncr]

I agree we don't know enough about Mark to come to a single conclusion. I think there are many legitimate interpretations of his character and you can choose the one that works for you, as I have done. His connection as a military brat is significant and effects his relationship with his sister for sure. I'm not directly connected to the military, but my mom worked at DOD schools and I have lived on military bases, and now I live near the Pentagon; so I have seen how that effects the kids and their relationships.

[Nynaeve506]

I would definitely agree - I'm only recommending a starting place. I could very much imagine Mark married to a peacemaker. I think the only time I'm turned off is when Mark is made out to be (as you described) bitter about Pete and Sam not working out. I'd like to think that part of what healed their relationship was the natural mellowing that age (generally) brings.

Who knows? Maybe Mark eventually took the fam up to Jack's cabin! (Or am I stretching too much?)