Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[josiane]

I have to say, personally I don't think the ending is ambiguous at all. It's just not in-your-face obvious. But this is a couple that have never been in-your-face obvious - the entire ship is built on things half-said, shared looks, careful words that have more meaning if you look beneath the surface, and IMO I think the way it ends in Threads and Moebius is entirely in keeping with that. Jack promises Sam 'always' and they go fishing, and thereafter there is a change in their demeanor and behaviour with one another - clues every bit as strong as those that we shippers have taken the entire way through. Yes it would have been nice to have seen a kiss at that point, but for me at least, there was no need for them to get it on there on the jetty to know that things were resolved. And yes I wish that as the show had progressed the PTB hadn't been quite so determined to skirt round the edges of their relationship and had just let one of them come out and say it, but again, the clues were there (seriously, who puts a photo of them with their boss in a flowery frame??). But for me those are just things that would have been nice to see, but I can live quite happily without them Always + fishing is, as Jack says, the perfect ending

[Zoser]

I've been reading through the Shipper Archive, specifically the posts from the time of 'Moebius' airing. It was first shown in the UK, and the reactions of everyone to the spoilers as they were being posted during the first airing are quite interesting. I remember well the disappointment that, yet again, we were promised a kiss, only to find out it wasn't between 'our' Sam and Jack.
If only the writers had got rid of the jumping fish, and just had S/J kiss as they turned to each other, I think it would have made most shippers happy.

After 'Threads' and 'Moebius' had aired, we lost many shippers that posted regularly in the ship thread, most of them leaving because they were disappointed at the ambiguous ending.

I suppose the writers can do as they like and follow their artistic vision but it felt like a stab to the heart (excuse the drama) to this old shipper. Couldn't they throw us a crumb -then again maybe they thought the fishing ending was acknowledgment enough. And at first it was for me but the season 9 and 10 (which I refuse to believe exists) left us still hanging. Some fan fic and Mala's beautiful work (and my x-rated imagination) fill in the blanks.

[siles]

I have to say, personally I don't think the ending is ambiguous at all. It's just not in-your-face obvious. But this is a couple that have never been in-your-face obvious - the entire ship is built on things half-said, shared looks, careful words that have more meaning if you look beneath the surface, and IMO I think the way it ends in Threads and Moebius is entirely in keeping with that. Jack promises Sam 'always' and they go fishing, and thereafter there is a change in their demeanor and behaviour with one another - clues every bit as strong as those that we shippers have taken the entire way through. Yes it would have been nice to have seen a kiss at that point, but for me at least, there was no need for them to get it on there on the jetty to know that things were resolved. And yes I wish that as the show had progressed the PTB hadn't been quite so determined to skirt round the edges of their relationship and had just let one of them come out and say it, but again, the clues were there (seriously, who puts a photo of them with their boss in a flowery frame??). But for me those are just things that would have been nice to see, but I can live quite happily without them Always + fishing is, as Jack says, the perfect ending

I have to disagree with you. If the main actress doesn't know the ship was resolved as AT intimated at AT5 (she said Sam and Jack should have gotten together), then I for one think the ship ended too ambiguous for my taste

[dipsofjazz]

I have to say, personally I don't think the ending is ambiguous at all.

Spoiled for space

Spoiler:

It's just not in-your-face obvious. But this is a couple that have never been in-your-face obvious - the entire ship is built on things half-said, shared looks, careful words that have more meaning if you look beneath the surface, and IMO I think the way it ends in Threads and Moebius is entirely in keeping with that. Jack promises Sam 'always' and they go fishing, and thereafter there is a change in their demeanor and behaviour with one another - clues every bit as strong as those that we shippers have taken the entire way through. Yes it would have been nice to have seen a kiss at that point, but for me at least, there was no need for them to get it on there on the jetty to know that things were resolved. And yes I wish that as the show had progressed the PTB hadn't been quite so determined to skirt round the edges of their relationship and had just let one of them come out and say it, but again, the clues were there (seriously, who puts a photo of them with their boss in a flowery frame??). But for me those are just things that would have been nice to see, but I can live quite happily without them

Always + fishing is, as Jack says, the perfect ending

I think the reason I, and many of the 'old' shippers, were disappointed with the ending was because we had been given all sorts of spoilers before 'Threads' and 'Moebius' aired.

The Gateworld Shipper family had helped each other through the stupid cop-boy episodes, and knew we were about to get rid of him.
Various 'sides' (the pages of scripts used for auditions etc) were posted on the ship thread, one of them being Kerry's speech dumping Jack. Through this, we weren't worried about having her on the show.
We were hearing comments about our ship being resolved. All of this got the shippers very excited, and we all speculated about how they would get together, and about seeing a great big honkin' kiss.

Having been a part of the on-line excitement and expectation, what we eventually received fell far short of what we thought we would see.

If I hadn't been part of the on-line fandom at this time, I may have been content with 'Threads' and 'Moebius'. Since I was part of the shipper family, I was disappointed.

I'm sure you all know about 'mob mentality' and 'mass hysteria', well being part of the on-line community at this time was very similar. Heck, even the anti-shippers were sure it would be the big shippy ending we shippers had been waiting for for years.

To sum up, I think the build-up to these episodes aided in the disappointment for many shippers, and why they left on-line fandom. It was a bit like the lead-up to Christmas, only for you to receive a pair of socks as your gift.

[josiane]

I have to disagree with you. If the main actress doesn't know the ship was resolved as AT intimated at AT5 (she said Sam and Jack should have gotten together), then I for one think the ship ended too ambiguous for my taste

I don't recall her saying that But fair enough if you think it was too ambiguous for you The joy of any 'text' is that everyone's interpretations are equally valid.

I think the reason I, and many of the 'old' shippers, were disappointed with the ending was because we had been given all sorts of spoilers before 'Threads' and 'Moebius' aired.

The Gateworld Shipper family had helped each other through the stupid cop-boy episodes, and knew we were about to get rid of him.
Various 'sides' (the pages of scripts used for auditions etc) were posted on the ship thread, one of them being Kerry's speech dumping Jack. Through this, we weren't worried about having her on the show.
We were hearing comments about our ship being resolved. All of this got the shippers very excited, and we all speculated about how they would get together, and about seeing a great big honkin' kiss.

Having been a part of the on-line excitement and expectation, what we eventually received fell far short of what we thought we would see.

If I hadn't been part of the on-line fandom at this time, I may have been content with 'Threads' and 'Moebius'. Since I was part of the shipper family, I was disappointed.

I'm sure you all know about 'mob mentality' and 'mass hysteria', well being part of the on-line community at this time was very similar. Heck, even the anti-shippers were sure it would be the big shippy ending we shippers had been waiting for for years.

To sum up, I think the build-up to these episodes aided in the disappointment for many shippers, and why they left on-line fandom. It was a bit like the lead-up to Christmas, only for you to receive a pair of socks as your gift.

I can understand that, and I do agree that I may have felt differently had I been watching live and part of the online fandom at the time. I know that it's a different experience coming to a show and a ship by gorging yourself right through on the DVDs rather than patiently waiting it out year by year. So I do understand why a lot of shippers feel and felt let down by the ending. However, from my point of view, and certainly with hindsight from having watched it over and over, I personally wouldn't want to change it at all.

[majorsal]

I have to disagree with you. If the main actress doesn't know the ship was resolved as AT intimated at AT5 (she said Sam and Jack should have gotten together), then I for one think the ship ended too ambiguous for my taste

*nods*

[majorsal]

To sum up, I think the build-up to these episodes aided in the disappointment for many shippers, and why they left on-line fandom. It was a bit like the lead-up to Christmas, only for you to receive a pair of socks as your gift.

and 'why' not give an unambiguous ending? other ships on stargate have gotten it.

that's why i'm soooooooooooooo holding out hope for the 3rd sg1 movie, b/c i feel this is IT for our chance to *see* that sam and jack had, indeed, gotten together sometime after 'threads'.

[EvenstarSRV]

My two cents as a non-shipper and a casual viewer who'd never even heard of the concept of online fandom or shipping until 2008, I didn't find the ending of Moebius to be at all ambiguous regarding Sam and Jack's relationship. They seemed to clearly indicate, at least to me, that these two people had mutually decided that their personal/romantic happiness lay with each other, and I didn't see anything in the later seasons that contradicted that impression.

Now they didn't explicitly say when Sam and Jack would physically get together, but IMHO their relationship has been one based mostly on their emotions and feelings as opposed to them acting on their feelings. So I have little trouble believing that when the circumstances are right that these two would get together, though I can certainly understand and sympathize with those wanting to see something more on-screen.

However, I'm personally rather glad they didn't show a kiss between Sam and Jack in Moebius since they were still in the direct chain of command at that time and it was still so soon after Jacob's death, so it wouldn't have fit my impressions of the characters. But the episodes afterwords would have been fair game IMO.

[Lucycat]

So, it seems like the season 8 discussion is over... or is it??
Does anyone have anything else to add???

[Kate1013]

I'm a little late to the party (damn RL - desperately been trying to catch up but to no avail!) and I think all the shippy comments I had have been mentioned already - forgive me if I'm slightly going off topic but this is S8 episode related - but in rewatching Moebius again today a few things stuck out at me that I've not noticed before.

1) Wasn't Catherine an only child? How did she have a niece?
2) As far as we know she didn't get married (her surname remains the same) and she was pining after Ernest. How did she have a niece?
3) Where was Ernest when she died?

Or had this been explained and I just didn't notice?

[hedwig]

I'm a little late to the party (damn RL - desperately been trying to catch up but to no avail!) and I think all the shippy comments I had have been mentioned already - forgive me if I'm slightly going off topic but this is S8 episode related - but in rewatching Moebius again today a few things stuck out at me that I've not noticed before.

1) Wasn't Catherine an only child? How did she have a niece?
2) As far as we know she didn't get married (her surname remains the same) and she was pining after Ernest. How did she have a niece?
3) Where was Ernest when she died?

Or had this been explained and I just didn't notice?

Nope. None of your questions were ever explained. I'd like to know the answer to them as well. I would especially like to have had a comment at her funeral about Ernest; something about what happened to him. But since Daniel kept in touch with Catherine, I would think he would already know that, and should have said something.

[Lucycat]

I'm a little late to the party (damn RL - desperately been trying to catch up but to no avail!) and I think all the shippy comments I had have been mentioned already - forgive me if I'm slightly going off topic but this is S8 episode related - but in rewatching Moebius again today a few things stuck out at me that I've not noticed before.

1) Wasn't Catherine an only child? How did she have a niece?
2) As far as we know she didn't get married (her surname remains the same) and she was pining after Ernest. How did she have a niece?
3) Where was Ernest when she died?

Or had this been explained and I just didn't notice?

Perhaps she and Ernest got married after Torment of Tantulas... and the women was niece from Ernest's side of the family? She was a Langford for 70 years so she kept her maiden name?

[hlndncr]

So, it seems like the season 8 discussion is over... or is it??
Does anyone have anything else to add???

I'm not done yet!!

I haven't had time to sit down and write my thoughts on Threads and Moebius. But I'm tired tonight. (What I have to say isn't that interesting, but I've never learned to just shut up and let things be. )

Meanwhile, it would probably be a good time to dicuss what we want to do next. Who's for an abreviated discussion of S9 & S10? If we were to do that, which eps would you want to discuss?

[Aveo_amacus]

or it could have been just a friend of the family but she's always called her "Aunt Catherine" I've got one or two "relatives" like that
I'm with everyone on the absence of Ernest, I guess maybe he died since ToT but as you say they could have mentioned it. (and the other SG1 members could have gone too!)

[hedwig]

or it could have been just a friend of the family but she's always called her "Aunt Catherine" I've got one or two "relatives" like that
I'm with everyone on the absence of Ernest, I guess maybe he died since ToT but as you say they could have mentioned it. (and the other SG1 members could have gone too!)

In "Torment of Tantalus", it was made clear that Sam and Catherine knew each other before Sam was assigned to the SGC, and probably knew Catherine before Daniel did. It has always seemed odd to me that at least Sam wasn't at the funeral along with Daniel. I do realize there was no Samantha Carter in the original movie, but in the series there is clearly a warm friendship between the two women. I would have liked to see all of SG1 at the funeral.