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Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread
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Originally posted by Lucycat View PostWow, no else has posted comments from Threads yet? Josie did an extremely thorough job, that I'm hard pressed to think of anything to add.
Do I have to watch the Daniel parts? I get bored.sigpic
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Originally posted by hlndncr View PostI admit I'm a little intimidated by Josi's brilliance. And I haven't had time to rewatch Threads yet.
Do I have to watch the Daniel parts? I get bored.
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Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View PostI agree with the first part, but I think the crux of our disagreement seems to be more the bolded part. IMHO, Jack made it rather clear what his feelings were in D&C and beyond, and in Grace Sam points that out to herself via Jack when he says, 'Maybe it's not me that's the problem here.' And after she imagines kissing him she says 'nevermind.' I don't really see how that shows that she really wants to be with Jack at that moment. Wouldn't her response have been something more positive or affirmative in that case?
Originally posted by hlndncr View PostI admit I'm a little intimidated by Josi's brilliance. And I haven't had time to rewatch Threads yet.
Do I have to watch the Daniel parts? I get bored.
Josi, you made a totally awesome review. Extra kudos for the Teal'c love, er, mention. I wish I had time to add stuff but I'm leaving town, like, OMG, tomorrow! So I'll make this short by saying that I still don't see the ending as resolution. Period. Maybe I would have if Daniel and Teal'c hadn't shown up? Ah, hmmmmm, I dunno. Um, maybe... Okay, no.
Sorry to repeat myself, but I still want a Sam/Jack "I love you" hug/kiss that isn't delivered as a "let me hug/kiss you cuz you're cold/scared/beatup/infected/gonna-forget-next-loop/not-from-my-universe/just-a-dream" hug/kiss.sigpic
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Great review Josi
Originally posted by UhSir View PostJosi, you made a totally awesome review. Extra kudos for the Teal'c love, er, mention. I wish I had time to add stuff but I'm leaving town, like, OMG, tomorrow! So I'll make this short by saying that I still don't see the ending as resolution. Period. Maybe I would have if Daniel and Teal'c hadn't shown up? Ah, hmmmmm, I dunno. Um, maybe... Okay, no.
Sorry to repeat myself, but I still want a Sam/Jack "I love you" hug/kiss that isn't delivered as a "let me hug/kiss you cuz you're cold/scared/beatup/infected/gonna-forget-next-loop/not-from-my-universe/just-a-dream" hug/kiss.
As much as I love Threads (yes, even the Daniel parts) I agree with you, UhSir, I need more! I need confirmation!sigpicSig by Everlovin My YT|My other vid site|My LJ|My Photobucket|My ImageShack|"Stargate is life, Sam and Jack are happiness, Shippers are almighty" by hlndncr
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Josiane, you did a spectacular thesis on Threads.
I can't think of anything to add. I think Reckoning I & II and Threads are some of Stargate's finest hours.
BTW does any one dissect and analyze a TV show as much as we do Stargate?sigpicMy Stories zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Artwork by Mala
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Originally posted by hedwig View Post*pssst ... don't tell anyone ... I fast forward through all the Daniel parts ...*
And I hope some more people will comment... I didn't mean to intimidate anyone, I just can't shut up once I startsigpic
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Well, I do have questions about a few things.
If a relationship between Jack and Sam is against the regs, how is one between Jack and Kerry okay? After all, she's at the SGC investigating the whole Kinsey matter, and one would think that being involved with the base commander who had very strong negative feelings about Kinsey would be a conflict of interest which could affect Kerry's final report on the matter.
And if Jack truly felt that Sam didn't love him or want him, why hide the relationship with Kerry? I realize he's a pretty private guy, but I would bet there were rumors going around about him and Kerry in the short time she was at the SGC. If people didn't respect Sam and Jack's "privacy" pre-Generalship, why respect it now when he's involved with another woman?
I've also often wondered about Kerry's comment to Jack about how good they were together. They'd been together for barely a month (and yet acted like they'd been together for years). That's hardly enough time (for most people, and specifically for Jack, who would take a lot longer, in my opinion, to decide whether a relationship is "good") to determine something like that. It's all very superficial at that point (for most people), so of course it would seem "good".
I've often wondered why Selmak didn't give Jacob a mental smack in the head and tell him to be more direct with Sam about what he was trying to tell her, since it didn't seem to be getting across to her. Love to have heard that sort of conversation between Selmak and Jacob.
I confess that I was a tad annoyed with Jacob (and Jack) in the conference room egging Sam on about the whole flower thing. It felt (to me) like Jacob was deliberately trying to embarrass her, and Jack seemed to be enjoying it.
And my own opinion of Jack sort of hanging his head after Kerry dumped him was not so much realizing she was right (as in telling him something he wasn't aware of), but more having somebody telling him what he already knew and had been studiously avoiding, and if it was that obvious to Kerry then he simply couldn't avoid it anymore.
I'm sure there's more questions I can come up with, but how's that?
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Hello, I am decloaking, or de-lurking!
I wanted to give my thanks to Josiane on a brilliant Threads thesis. All I could say was, well, nothing! I just sat an blinked several times after reading it. Then I had to re-read it a few days later. It actually got better on the second read through!!
Back in the day, I used to be a huge Star Trek fan (the original, to be clear). Then Star Wars, as its universe looked so lived in. But I have never gotten as involved with a show as I have Stargate SG-1. All that to say that there are some wonderful writers on FFnet and having "discovered" their discussions here as made things all new again. So Thank You to you all, too.
Josiane, I will be re-reading your thesis again. Great analysis. And I will be going back in this thread to find my favorite episodes and what you all thought of them.
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Welcome moosepath! I hope you'll enjoy reading back over our reviews, and will join in the discussions from now on
And thank you for such lovely comments!sigpic
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I know I barely post here, but I diligently read your reviews, and I just decided I wanted to say something today, so take it or leave it. ;P
Originally posted by hedwig View PostWell, I do have questions about a few things.
If a relationship between Jack and Sam is against the regs, how is one between Jack and Kerry okay? After all, she's at the SGC investigating the whole Kinsey matter, and one would think that being involved with the base commander who had very strong negative feelings about Kinsey would be a conflict of interest which could affect Kerry's final report on the matter.
But, IMO, you're right. Technically, Kerry being in a relationship with Jack creates a conflict of interest. But isn't every relationship the same way? Whoever you're with, you'll have to deal with the people that person loves/hates/works with. Besides, when Kerry's report is done, then Jack becomes a 'normal guy' again from her perspective. So, I would even say that may be the reason why they were keeping things quiet. Because they KNEW, it could be interpreted like that, so they wanted to wait longer before telling the rest of the world.
And if Jack truly felt that Sam didn't love him or want him, why hide the relationship with Kerry? I realize he's a pretty private guy, but I would bet there were rumors going around about him and Kerry in the short time she was at the SGC. If people didn't respect Sam and Jack's "privacy" pre-Generalship, why respect it now when he's involved with another woman?
(Or I could say that everyone at the SGC was frustrated with Jack and Sam for pursuing relationships with other people, but that's not really the answer you're looking for, is it? )
I've also often wondered about Kerry's comment to Jack about how good they were together. They'd been together for barely a month (and yet acted like they'd been together for years). That's hardly enough time (for most people, and specifically for Jack, who would take a lot longer, in my opinion, to decide whether a relationship is "good") to determine something like that. It's all very superficial at that point (for most people), so of course it would seem "good".
And my own opinion of Jack sort of hanging his head after Kerry dumped him was not so much realizing she was right (as in telling him something he wasn't aware of), but more having somebody telling him what he already knew and had been studiously avoiding, and if it was that obvious to Kerry then he simply couldn't avoid it anymore.
I'm sure there's more questions I can come up with, but how's that?
Phew! That wasn't as hard as I thought... ^^;
Oh and I skip through the Daniel (and Jaffa) scenes too!sigpic
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Originally posted by moosepath View PostHello, I am decloaking, or de-lurking!
I wanted to give my thanks to Josiane on a brilliant Threads thesis. All I could say was, well, nothing! I just sat an blinked several times after reading it. Then I had to re-read it a few days later. It actually got better on the second read through!!
Back in the day, I used to be a huge Star Trek fan (the original, to be clear). Then Star Wars, as its universe looked so lived in. But I have never gotten as involved with a show as I have Stargate SG-1. All that to say that there are some wonderful writers on FFnet and having "discovered" their discussions here as made things all new again. So Thank You to you all, too.
Josiane, I will be re-reading your thesis again. Great analysis. And I will be going back in this thread to find my favorite episodes and what you all thought of them.
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First, fabulous review! I just had a couple of points I wanted to comment on.
Originally posted by josiane View PostTeal'c: Courage
Teal'c's quest throughout the series has been all about securing freedom for the Jaffa from the Goa'uld, finding the collective courage to free themselves from oppression. It was his motivation in joining forces with SG1 in the first place, and all his main storylines have been linked with this struggle. His quest was largely achieved in Reckoning, with winning Dakara, but it's in this episode that we get to see what it means. The scene at the beginning where he and Bra'tac are made blood kin to all Jaffa, and there's that lovely line about no more kneeling to anyone, is his own personal moment of triumph. Of course, with the Ancient weapon still in existence, and Ba'al and Anubis still knocking about, there's a bit more work to do throughout the rest of the episode, and I think this storyline is designed to show a bit of the road ahead for Teal'c and the Jaffa. As Bra'tac says, it's now time for Teal'c to leave the Tau'ri and take up his place as a Jaffa leader, helping them stand on their own two feet and sort out their society as a free one, rather than a society of the enslaved, and this episode sets him up to do that. It shows though that he wouldn't leave Earth without some difficulty, because of the ties he has built up with his team over the past years, and that he is aware that this is quite a burden to take on. The Jaffa are not really ready to govern themselves effectively - the hot headed way they hare off to confront Anubis, leaving Dakara barely defended, demonstrates that as a society they have some growing up to do, as does their stubbornness about destroying the Ancient weapon. They are really living up to that old adage that the very young do not always do as they're told. They're positively giddy with freedom, and almost come a nasty cropper. Teal'c and Bra'tac are wise, but even they are full of Jaffa pride and allow that to cloud their judgement. They're lucky, but I think by the end of the episode they have learnt that they will need to tread carefully, and also that while they are deservedly proud of their new-found independence, they do still need their allies. It's always one thing to fight for freedom, but rarely do those fighting really consider what comes next, and here we see the Jaffa starting to realise that winning freedom is not the end, but the beginning.
There is barely any communication between them in this whole first part of the episode that isn't hampered by awkwardness, uncertainty and avoidance of gaze, and it's painful to watch. It's also quite a stark contrast to how we are used to seeing them interact - all season we've been talking about how comfortable they are with one another, how in sync they are. So why the difference here? And the answer can only be it's because they are both hyper aware of their relationships with Pete and Kerry, and the scenes that we see throughout this episode all touch on the personal to one extent or another. Sam is fretting about her impending wedding, having massive second thoughts, all of which clearly involve Jack, and so she's treading extra cautiously around him. Jack meanwhile has a new girlfriend that he doesn't want Sam to know about and is also clearly bothered by Sam's wedding now that it's so close, but doesn't want her to realise that it bothers him because he's so determined that she should be happy and he should not stand in her way.
Before I get on to Jacob and Kerry, a word or two about Pete. And oh boy is the whole thing a car crash at this point! He is just trying way too hard, and it's really no wonder Sam is having second thoughts about what the heck she thought she was doing. I basically cringe every time he's on screen here, which is of course the intention, but we're being shown in no uncertain terms that he and Sam are just not compatible. She is clearly embarrassed by him when he comes to meet her dad, which could be in large part because he's at her workplace and so out of place, but the glances she exchanges with Jacob are more telling, I think. She's almost apologetic; kind of saying 'I know, don't judge him, he's nervous, but I know he's an idiot'. And much as she tries to be happy when Pete takes her to see the house, it's quite clear she wishes she were somewhere else, and you can visibly see her heart sink when she sees what he's done. We've already been discussing Sam and Pete's relationship, so I won't go too much into it here, but yeah, talk about second thoughts! Pete, for his part, is given a tiny bit of redemption when he reacts pretty gracefully to her dumping him, and his line 'I knew from the beginning' indicates that he wasn't as blind as he was cabbage looking. So the whole thing really is pretty much bad relationships 101 - one person not sure but trying not to hurt the other, the other one trying too hard to pretend it's all hunky dory even while knowing it's not.
Originally posted by UhSir View PostThat's the thing that always hit me. I'm usually accused of being "Jack-sided" on this whole ship thing and maybe I am? Regardless, I've always seen this "discussion" she has with Jack/herself as a realization of fact and then an immediate dismissal out of fear/habit.
What has always struck me about the Sam/Jack relationship is that Jack was pressed or chose several times to put his feelings for Sam out in the open (POV, D&C, WoO, BtS, Entity, Grace to Teal'c) but Sam's never really had to do the same or it was far less explicit. (This is largely why I've never understood the pining criticism of Sam regarding Jack, because it always seemed the other way around to me). So I tend to see Sam's hesitancy involving Jack having more to do with her fears/nerves about voicing her feelings for him rather than her fears/uncertainty about his feelings for her.
Originally posted by Zoser View PostJosiane, you did a spectacular thesis on Threads.
I can't think of anything to add. I think Reckoning I & II and Threads are some of Stargate's finest hours.
BTW does any one dissect and analyze a TV show as much as we do Stargate?
Originally posted by hedwig View PostWell, I do have questions about a few things.
If a relationship between Jack and Sam is against the regs, how is one between Jack and Kerry okay? After all, she's at the SGC investigating the whole Kinsey matter, and one would think that being involved with the base commander who had very strong negative feelings about Kinsey would be a conflict of interest which could affect Kerry's final report on the matter.
I've also often wondered about Kerry's comment to Jack about how good they were together. They'd been together for barely a month (and yet acted like they'd been together for years). That's hardly enough time (for most people, and specifically for Jack, who would take a lot longer, in my opinion, to decide whether a relationship is "good") to determine something like that. It's all very superficial at that point (for most people), so of course it would seem "good".
Originally posted by moosepath View PostHello, I am decloaking, or de-lurking!
I wanted to give my thanks to Josiane on a brilliant Threads thesis. All I could say was, well, nothing! I just sat an blinked several times after reading it. Then I had to re-read it a few days later. It actually got better on the second read through!!
Back in the day, I used to be a huge Star Trek fan (the original, to be clear). Then Star Wars, as its universe looked so lived in. But I have never gotten as involved with a show as I have Stargate SG-1. All that to say that there are some wonderful writers on FFnet and having "discovered" their discussions here as made things all new again. So Thank You to you all, too.
Josiane, I will be re-reading your thesis again. Great analysis. And I will be going back in this thread to find my favorite episodes and what you all thought of them.
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