Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Akamaimom]

Run! Run for cover!

Ha ha.

I like Avatar as an episode, but will have to watch it again because you found so many more things to talk about! Great review!

[HolyAngelQueenSG-1]

X_X Jack get save Sam life. Than Jack got gun shots at Wraith and Goa'uld. AWW, Jack kiss smooth at sam cheer up... :rolleye:

[iiradned]

Great review!

Sam/Jack:

For the episode when they don’t have much screen time together, there are many friendshippy or shippy, depending on the strength of your shippy!glasses, moments and really nice touches (not in the physical sense – get your minds out of the gutter! )

(Whiny voice)Do I have to?

[Zoser]

I never cared for this episode myself, but I've always had a hard time putting my finger on what I don't like about it. Your analysis was great because it put into words a lot of the things that bothered me.

It didn't seem like a Stargate episode to me

I agree that the first contact idea was good and I really liked the museum scene. But I think they abandoned that interesting idea for the less interesting Daniel storyline that was supposed to hearken back to the English Patient (a movie I thought was also boring and uncompelling).



I think some of the lack of urgency and believability is that they didn't have the production budget to show what was needed to sell the story. But I agree that the idealic farmhouse where Daniel is flirting with his (married) nurse made it very hard to accept that we are on a planet that was in the midst of a devastating world war that decimated the population. I mean they kept saying, but I just didn't believe it.



I never really bought into the Daniel amnesia bit either. It seemed quite unnecessary, even as a gimmick to tell the story in flashbacks.

You are so right about Daniel not really having a purpose on the planet. I hadn't really paid attention to that before, but he really does just stand around and look worried. And I'm not sure what he thought he was going to do since Rand wasn't going to let him talk freely with the Caledonians and the religious extremist who took advantage of the situation certainly weren't interested in talking.

The situation reminds me a little too much of the Kelownans and we had no problem walking away from them when they couldn't get it together. Jack was right. We stick our collective noses where they don't belong and then we leave, and in this case I think rightly so.



I agree that I loved seeing Sam in charge and I really wish this show would have been more about that. But they just kept going around her. Sam did lead the team to make first contact. (Did it bother anyone else that they came strolling through the gate unarmed? I can't see Jack ever doing that even on a diplomatic mission.) But then Daniel goes directly to Jack about returning to the planet. I was annoyed by Daniel going over her head (probably more because he hasn't acknowledged that anything has changed than that he is consciously trying to undermine Sam), but I was even more annoyed at Jack. He should have made Daniel go through his team leader. Letting Daniel go back to the planet without even consulting Sam was a bad leadership on his part.

I never thought of this but you are right - Daniel's first stop should have been Sam. Maybe for time constraints this was omitted but Jack or Daniel should have said something to that effect or Sam should have been in on the conversation. Then again maybe Jack was sparing Sam the nagging Daniel routine.

She should have at least been consulted, especially because I think SG1 should have been sent as a team if he was going to send someone back to the planet. Then Jack takes over the negotiations to get Daniel back. I just think this is the first of many examples of how TPTB never really treated Sam like she actually was the leader of SG1, and it ticks me off.

When did they ever send someone in a dangerous situation without the team or some backup?

[Zoser]

Re Avatar
I have wondered about Teal'c notion that the Goa'uld could not be defeated, was reinforced when one of the first things that happens as the game starts and the base is invaded is the O'Neill is killed. As Teal'c says in Children of the Gods 'many have said it' but Jack O'Neill is the first one Teal'c believes can bring down the Goa'uld.

It is delightful to see Jack and Sam together in this episode. Made me forget about Pete - so much so I was shocked to see him again.

[Aveo_amacus]

great review Petra, I like Avatar too, it does have a slightly Old Skool feel to it, SG1 find themselves into trouble, work together, get out of trouble, but with the spin that it's the new line up SG1-wise, and also that it's on the base so it includes Jack

Isn't it also one of the few Teal'c episodes where Teal'c doesn't kiss someone?? (probably because CJ didn't write it )

Good catch Zoser! I love the idea that there's a relationship between Teal'c belief and Jack

[Lucycat]

Great review Petra! I really liked Avatar, as well. I agree with everything that has been said. Love when they all volunteered to go into the game to save Teal'c, and the Mexican stand-off at the end.

Another scene that is very moving (though not S/J) is the scene when Teal'c finally realizes that Daniel is real, and not part of the game. He is so defeated and vulnerable when he tells him, "It cannot be done, Daniel Jackson, it cannot," But then Daniel offers him his hand and his support. Teal'c is quickly back to his old self and ready to kick-but with his team-mate at his side. Great friendship and team-shippyness!!

KUDOS to Chris Judge!!

Thought this exchange was funny between the two
We must leave this area
Yeah, I heard that!

Doesn't Sam pat Jack on the arm at some point when they are trying to explain the chairs to him? During the "Matrix" conversation? I'll have to re-check that. But I agree, they are acting like a couple, imo, during most of their scenes together!

[Sarai]

Awesome banner by hlndncr

I decided to watch this one with the commentary on for a different spin and for those of you sans DVDs

Commentary is by Peter DeLuise and Dan Shea (some of you may be able to guess why I wanted to do this ep )

Synopsis

Teal'c moves into an apartment off base, and then becomes the chief suspect in a murder. Teal'c is proven innocent after Dr. Jackson goes missing, and it is revealed the Trust are still active, and are taking aggressive measures to get what they want. Meanwhile Sam deals with personal issues.

Commentary – Cliffs Notes

So we start out by learning the girl on the bike at the start is Joey Shea, Dan Shea’s daughter. She also plays one of the young girls making eyes at mini-Jack at the end of Fragile Balance.

Peter DeLuise goes on to tell us that they had to shoot the car crash a couple of times to get it right – the actor was unwilling to really slam into the car in front. In the end Dan Shea had to get in and stand on the brakes to get it right.

In the scene at the park – Peter DeLuise is the guy ordering hotdogs with Michael Greenburg’s son in his arms. Then as the camera pans to the right the woman in the red coat is Amanda’s mother! Then the woman next to her with the long her is Michael Greenburg’s wife! Definitely keeping it in the family with this ep

Chris really does throw an avocado at the mugger running away down the street but it’s a CG avocado that hits him and knocks him down! The stunt man had to throw himself down onto the ground again and again to get the angles right.

We learn that Peter DeLuise didn’t write much of the dialogue for that brilliant scene between Sam, Daniel and Teal’c where the two guys think they are talking about Teal’c’s problem when Sam goes off on one, clearly trying to deal with her confusion about Pete’s proposal. The writer here was Brad Wright – a friend to the shippers

Analysis

The ep quickly falls into two storylines. We have a huge amount of character development for Teal’c which was seriously overdue IMO, and we also see Sam trying to overcome serious personal issues regarding her relationship with Pete Shanahan.

One thing that strikes me about this episode as I watch it is that it doesn’t necessarily follow the story arc we see in other eps, or even other shows which centre heavily on characters and relationships. Rather than jumping straight into the action the first act is slow and quietly building up for the later story. The proposal from Pete comes at just after nine minutes in, no build up, no fanfare. It might be clutching at straws but to me that’s a definitive way of suggesting that the relationship is not that serious. The most important aspect of the proposal isn’t the proposal itself – it’s Sam’s reaction to it and how she deals with it for the rest of the ep.

It’s so great to see Teal’c in a home environment and I always thought it was so sad he wasn’t allowed to stay off base. He’s the perfect neighbour! The developing relationship (whilst controversial to some as he supposed to be ‘with’ Ishta) between Teal’c and Christa is sweet and although DeLuise at first considered the actress to be too young IMO she was well cast. There is clearly a budding romance between the two as they learn the “kada”.

As Christa’s boyfriend becomes more abusive, she asks Teal’c to leave with her and he does. This is where the ep starts to pick up pace and we see hints of a story arc that is more far-reaching. The team learn that Christa’s boyfriend has been found dead, and Teal’c is number 1 suspect. We quickly establish that the Teal’c has been set up and Daniel is contacted by the Trust, proving they are still active. They are located by Sam and Pete but manage to get out of the warehouse they are keeping Daniel and Christa in before the rescuers can get there. At the end of the ep, Teal’c has to move back to the base and Christa comes to say goodbye.

Implications for Sam/Jack

Where to start!! Well first of all Sam’s reaction to Pete’s proposal is very telling. To have any doubts at all would suggest marriage probably isn’t a good idea, however how does one turn down a marriage proposal without breaking someone’s heart?! IMO Sam is feeling scared, guilty and hopeful all in one go. She’s staring at a fork in the road – stay faithful to the idea of her and Jack or try to forge ahead with something new that could work. It’s a huge choice to be placed in front of someone who, as the infamous VSS’ once put it, is an emotional dweeb.

Sam’s quote to me sums up her and Jack perfectly - “They make you afraid of being alone but at the same time tell you not to settle for anything less than the perfect romantic ideal like that actually exists anywhere in the real world…either way you can’t win.”

THE scene I’m not actually going to talk too much about since I’m sure the discussion for the next few pages will bring that in. But I just want to say how much I love it. As PDL says in the commentary, it’s just two people in a room talking and yet it screams volumes. It’s heaped with subtext, and the framing of their faces is so intense – say what you like about PDL, but he’s a great director .

“What about you…if things had been different?”
“I wouldn’t be here”

Two lines – but it’s the way they are acted that makes the scene and makes it such a strong scene for the relationship between Sam and Jack.

The most obvious implication for the couple is that at the end of the episode, buoyed by his help on the case with Teal’c, Sam agrees to marry Pete.

[josiane]

D'oh, apologies for the banner-fails the last couple of eps I have now sent out all the ones I have so far!

Firstly, fab reviews, Petra and Sarai!

Now to jump in on the discussions a bit more

First, Avatar:

I agree this is a good team episode, and I agree with what Petra said about the structural similarity to Window of Opportunity, which really works well.

Generally:

I love Avatar. I wanted to review only the episodes I really like, because the forum is so full of negativity these days, that I wanted to have something to cherish and write good things about. Josiane, awesome person that she is, was kind enough to grant my request. So here I am, after Lockdown gushing about another episode. Bear with me please.

You're welcome! And hear hear on the negativity thing - it's lovely to have posts that celebrate the things we love about this show :

There are 2 things that set Avatar apart from other Teal'c episodes. One, although it is thought of as Teal’c episode, IMO it’s more of a team episode with focus on Teal’c. Two, with the exception of The Changeling, it’s the only Teal'c-centric episode that doesn’t deal with the Jaffa in any way.

I appreciate this too - Teal'c is such a fantastic character with so much potential and I often feel he's a little wasted with the episodes that focus on him almost always being to do with the Jaffa. I mean, I know they're his major connection and ongoing story-arc, but it's lovely to see him relating to other characters and situations as we do here and also in Affinity.

Otherwise, I really agree with your analysis both in terms of all the characters, the team and Sam/Jack All good!

Now on to Affinity:

Commentary is by Peter DeLuise and Dan Shea (some of you may be able to guess why I wanted to do this ep )

Nope, can't think at all!

We learn that Peter DeLuise didn’t write much of the dialogue for that brilliant scene between Sam, Daniel and Teal’c where the two guys think they are talking about Teal’c’s problem when Sam goes off on one, clearly trying to deal with her confusion about Pete’s proposal. The writer here was Brad Wright – a friend to the shippers

We <3 Brad

One thing that strikes me about this episode as I watch it is that it doesn’t necessarily follow the story arc we see in other eps, or even other shows which centre heavily on characters and relationships. Rather than jumping straight into the action the first act is slow and quietly building up for the later story. The proposal from Pete comes at just after nine minutes in, no build up, no fanfare. It might be clutching at straws but to me that’s a definitive way of suggesting that the relationship is not that serious. The most important aspect of the proposal isn’t the proposal itself – it’s Sam’s reaction to it and how she deals with it for the rest of the ep.

Yes, absolutely - that's a great distinction. The proposal comes out of the blue both for us as viewers and for Sam, and it's no wonder it throws her for a loop. I think she really never considered that this was where the relationship was going, hence all the soul-searching that follows. And she's not just wondering whether she wants to marry Pete, but whether she wants to get married at all. It's almost like this whole situation has never seriously occurred to her - it's always been a distant 'one day, maybe, with someone'.

It’s so great to see Teal’c in a home environment and I always thought it was so sad he wasn’t allowed to stay off base. He’s the perfect neighbour! The developing relationship (whilst controversial to some as he supposed to be ‘with’ Ishta) between Teal’c and Christa is sweet and although DeLuise at first considered the actress to be too young IMO she was well cast. There is clearly a budding romance between the two as they learn the “kada”.

I agree it's lovely to see Teal'c out of the base and in the real world, as it were - as I said above, there's so much more potential with his character that rarely gets explored like this.

Implications for Sam/Jack

Where to start!! Well first of all Sam’s reaction to Pete’s proposal is very telling. To have any doubts at all would suggest marriage probably isn’t a good idea, however how does one turn down a marriage proposal without breaking someone’s heart?! IMO Sam is feeling scared, guilty and hopeful all in one go. She’s staring at a fork in the road – stay faithful to the idea of her and Jack or try to forge ahead with something new that could work. It’s a huge choice to be placed in front of someone who, as the infamous VSS’ once put it, is an emotional dweeb.

Sam’s quote to me sums up her and Jack perfectly - “They make you afraid of being alone but at the same time tell you not to settle for anything less than the perfect romantic ideal like that actually exists anywhere in the real world…either way you can’t win.”

Exactly!

THE scene I’m not actually going to talk too much about since I’m sure the discussion for the next few pages will bring that in. But I just want to say how much I love it. As PDL says in the commentary, it’s just two people in a room talking and yet it screams volumes. It’s heaped with subtext, and the framing of their faces is so intense – say what you like about PDL, but he’s a great director .

“What about you…if things had been different?”
“I wouldn’t be here”

Two lines – but it’s the way they are acted that makes the scene and makes it such a strong scene for the relationship between Sam and Jack.

The most obvious implication for the couple is that at the end of the episode, buoyed by his help on the case with Teal’c, Sam agrees to marry Pete.

Ah, well I'll kick things off then I love this scene, in all it's painful, angsty glory, mostly because it's just so brilliantly done. It's just so them, positively bowed down with the weight of all the words they don't say, hinting all round the edges but not actually ever coming right out with it, and with their eyes carrying on the real conversation regardless of what is coming out of their mouths.

For Sam, this is one of a series of times that she tries to put Jack on the spot and find out whether he still has feelings for her. This series starts with her imaginary confrontation in Grace, then there's three abortive attempts to talk to him - first in Lost City, then here in Affinity and finally in Threads. I'm not going to say too much more about this here because I'll save it for Threads, but it is a feature of this point in their relationship - Sam is trying to get answers from Jack and Jack holds out on her. I don't think it's at all insignificant that Sam makes so much effort to find out about Jack's feelings while she's with Pete - as Sarai said, she's at a fork in the road and essentially trying to find out whether she should hold on to that dream of a future with Jack or give it up as a bad lot, as it were. Jack, meanwhile, has several reasons for shutting Sam down whenever she tries - there's Pete, on top of all the old reasons of duty/regulations/fear. I think Jack genuinely believes that Sam has moved on or is trying to move on, and thinks the best thing to do for her is to let her go.

As for THE question and answer... oh I love this! It's deliberately, magnificently ambiguous. I love how it could mean so many things, so many things could have been different, and personally I think it means all of them at least in part. But it's just so wistful.

[hlndncr]

I'm going to go back and write a little bit about Avatar because I can't bring myself to watch Affinity right now. I really have to gear myself up for that one.

Favourite scene: The final stand-off with all 4 members of SG-1 pointing guns at each other

This is also my favorite scene (along with the one when Teal'c gives up, which is heartbreaking and beautifully shot and scored). What I really love is that ultimately it takes the whole team together (real Daniel/Teal'c and virtual Sam/Jack) to finally defeat the goa'uld and win the game.

And I can't resist the opportunity to self-pimp here. I wrote a little fic several month ago that was inspired by this scene: Don't Dream It's Over.

Generally:

I love Avatar. I wanted to review only the episodes I really like, because the forum is so full of negativity these days, that I wanted to have something to cherish and write good things about. Josiane, awesome person that she is, was kind enough to grant my request. So here I am, after Lockdown gushing about another episode. Bear with me please.

I would like to think that any negative opinions expressed on this thread are done with respect and reason. I mean I never met a person who likes every episode. And I think that in the later seasons the characterization and stories were very inconsistent. Think there was more mediocre in early seasons where later season episodes were more often hit or miss than just average.

But I agree that it's nice to be a cheerleader every once in a while for the episodes you really enjoy.

There are 2 things that set Avatar apart from other Teal'c episodes. One, although it is thought of as Teal’c episode, IMO it’s more of a team episode with focus on Teal’c. Two, with the exception of The Changeling, it’s the only Teal'c-centric episode that doesn’t deal with the Jaffa in any way.

It also reminds me a lot of WoO, because it starts out as this light-hearted action piece and somewhere along the way morphs into more serious, interesting look into Teal’c psyche and inner workings of the team.

Everything in this episode feels right. I like the fact that dr Lee is presented as faulty and amusing, but still intelligent scientist and not a bumbling idiot. I like dr Carmichael, even if dr Warner would have provided more continuity. Speaking of which, I love how the chairs from “Gamekeeper” are used again and that apparently we keep in touch with that world (yes, I’m one of those weird folks who like “Gamekkeper” ).

Just quoting because I think this is a great analysis. And I really liked Dr. Carmichael and would have been happy if they kept him around as the SGC CMO for the rest of the series. (Incidently, according to the actor's IMDb bio he does play a lot of doctors.)

Sam, while not shown in charge per se, gets to shine as a scientist and soldier, which is always nice to see. Regardless of whether she is in charge of the chair tests with Teal’c due to being his CO or due to being a scientist working on them, she’s present all the time and she takes care of the situation like a team leader ought to. Jack is present in all the right moments, trusting Sam to handle things and call him in only when something significant happens that he should know. Also, despite delivering many one-liners, I don’t think he was dumbed down in this one. In fact, I really like the explanation that he can’t go into the game due to his tactical experience. On that note, it’s cool that Daniel is chosen precisely because he’s the least experienced and knowledgeable out of all SG-1 members. It’s a refreshing moment and allows for some nice Daniel-Teal’c friendship moments. And I love their friendship.

This does show Sam to good advantage, and I had never considered Daniel being the logical choice precisely because he doesn't have the kind of knowledge and experience that would essentially feed the game, but that makes terrific sense.

And I love the moment when Daniel convinces Teal'c he's real and there to help. It's really beautiful. (And big shout out to Joel Goldsmith for his score throughout the episode, but especially these great emotional moments.)

Sam and Teal’c have a few nice friendshippy moments too (I’m a sucker for their friendship as well). Their exchange:

CARTER (to Teal'c): You've played Doom.
TEAL'C (smiling): I played Def Jam Vendetta.

is pretty funny when you are aware of the in-joke (apparently Chris Judge was the voice of Def Jam Vendetta in the game ). Teal’c and Jack share a few nice moments too, in the game as well as in ‘reality.”

Never knew that.

As I mentioned, this episode is full of teaminess and caring for each other. The moment I cited as my favourite line captures it the best, IMO: SG-1 will do everything for each other.

Finally, I really need to commend CJ’s superb acting.

Yep!

Sam/Jack:

For the episode when they don’t have much screen time together, there are many friendshippy or shippy, depending on the strength of your shippy!glasses, moments and really nice touches (not in the physical sense – get your minds out of the gutter! )

First off, we have a really sweet, affectionate, comfortable interplay between them at the beginning, when Jack traditionally wants Sam to explain how the chairs/game function to him, and she in turn laughs at his jokes and is clearly amused at dr Lee’s slip about the beginners’ level for Jack. They stand close together, they often mimic each other’s poses. It’s clear they “get” each other.

Then we have Sam, as the only one, expressing her disbelief that Jack is dead and even more warm, affectionate interaction between her and Jack in “reality”, for example when she uses Jack’s simple idea. Also, their exchange when Jack complains he should have gone into the game instead of Daniel gives me strong couple vibe.

Finally, there’s my favourite scene with Naquadah generator about to explode. I just love how Jack defends Sam, trusting her implicitly, how the moment Teal’c points his gun at Jack, Sam grabs hers and points it at Teal’c and how Jack shouts “Carter!” when goa’uld!Siler attacks. She’s the first and the only one he instinctively warns.

All in all though, there’s a lot of “we like each other, we trust each other and we are comfortable together” goodness that is lovely to watch.

I think it's no coincedence that virtual Sam is the one concerned about losing Jack. The game is extrapolating reactions from Teal'c's experience, and he is a shipper; so naturally he would expect Sam to be the one to voice their remorse.

I love the behind the scenes pictures of RDA and AT from this episode because it just emphasizes for me why they are so lovely to watch together on screen:

Spoilered for size

Spoiler:

Re Avatar
I have wondered about Teal'c notion that the Goa'uld could not be defeated, was reinforced when one of the first things that happens as the game starts and the base is invaded is the O'Neill is killed. As Teal'c says in Children of the Gods 'many have said it' but Jack O'Neill is the first one Teal'c believes can bring down the Goa'uld.

I like your point about the connection between Teal'c and Jack, and we see that in the last scene when Teal'c tells Jack, "We have won." And Jack responds, "Well, it's what we do." That's a lovely moment.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...er/avatar1.jpg

It is delightful to see Jack and Sam together in this episode. Made me forget about Pete - so much so I was shocked to see him again.

For me, it's always an unpleasant shock to see again!

great review Petra, I like Avatar too, it does have a slightly Old Skool feel to it, SG1 find themselves into trouble, work together, get out of trouble, but with the spin that it's the new line up SG1-wise, and also that it's on the base so it includes Jack

Isn't it also one of the few Teal'c episodes where Teal'c doesn't kiss someone?? (probably because CJ didn't write it )

Good catch Zoser! I love the idea that there's a relationship between Teal'c belief and Jack

I agree that this does feel like more of an old fashion team adventure and technically they in a virtual world that looks like the base.

Although it brings up one of my main criticisms of Season 8 and that is the oversaturation of SGC/earth based episodes. In the first half of the season we a good portion of New Order 1 at the SGC, Lockdown, Zero Hour and Avatar that take place at the SGC, Affinity, Covenent, and End Game that are all earth based (with a brief trip to the alpha site and a few scenes in orbit above earth). Do they even remember how to use the stargate? And really what's Walter to do if he has no chevrons to call?

Great review Petra! I really liked Avatar, as well. I agree with everything that has been said. Love when they all volunteered to go into the game to save Teal'c, and the Mexican stand-off at the end.

Another scene that is very moving (though not S/J) is the scene when Teal'c finally realizes that Daniel is real, and not part of the game. He is so defeated and vulnerable when he tells him, "It cannot be done, Daniel Jackson, it cannot," But then Daniel offers him his hand and his support. Teal'c is quickly back to his old self and ready to kick-but with his team-mate at his side. Great friendship and team-shippyness!!

KUDOS to Chris Judge!!

Thought this exchange was funny between the two
We must leave this area
Yeah, I heard that!

Doesn't Sam pat Jack on the arm at some point when they are trying to explain the chairs to him? During the "Matrix" conversation? I'll have to re-check that. But I agree, they are acting like a couple, imo, during most of their scenes together!

Great scene with CJ and MS!

What?! There's touching?! And I missed it?! I have to go back and look more closely at that.

[Aveo_amacus]

Yeah I'd noticed how little stargate action there was in season 8, obviously due to Jack being grounded on Earth. It's one thing that annoys me when people claim that RDA was clearly phoning it in as the writers had obviously written a lot of the episodes on or around Earth to allow for him to be there in at least a part of the episode. That didn't always happen with Hammond, episodes like Emancipation happened completely off-world without needing to 'check in' to give the base commander some time on screen but maybe we could have done with a little more actual stargate!

[josiane]

I think it's no coincedence that virtual Sam is the one concerned about losing Jack. The game is extrapolating reactions from Teal'c's experience, and he is a shipper; so naturally he would expect Sam to be the one to voice their remorse.

You know, I'd never thought of that! Nice

I love the behind the scenes pictures of RDA and AT from this episode because it just emphasizes for me why they are so lovely to watch together on screen:

Spoilered for size

Spoiler:

<lazy snip>

Aww! Love those pics

[hlndncr]

Thanks for the review of Affinity Josi.

Now you're going to have to forgive my negativity, but this episode goes at the very top of my least favorite SG1 episodes of all time. If there was ever a less apt name for an episode in my opinion because I have no affinity for it at all. So turn away now if you are not prepared for a very long, harsh rant.

My first overall complaint is that this episode has nothing in it that really makes it feel like stargate. It is all drama, drama, drama. Yes, Daniel translates Ancient writing into goa'uld symbols and the bad guys mysteriously disappear at in the end, but really it could be any language or special code and you've got an episode of Alias or Chuck or something of that ilk.

Second overall complaint, it's kinda boring. There's a lot of talking, no action (we don't see a cool car chase, no one fights the bad guys - except for the rather commical skuffle between Teal'c and the street thugs), and honestly very little suspense (did anyone really think Daniel would be shot?). And nothing really happens, the only significant point of the episode is a set up for Endgame (another episode I'm none too fond of).

Third, the entire episode reflects badly on our characters, especially Sam and Teal'c, but even Daniel doesn't escape criticism in my book. The only one who stayed wisely above the catastrophe was Jack, as he wisely completely disregarded most everything that went on.

So, now onto more specific areas of loathing.

Teal'c Storyline (the A plot):

I like seeing Teal'c off-base and think it could give us some fun insight into his character (he likes home dec shows ), but as interesting tidbits; I don't think it carries a whole story. And given the story they chose to tell, well let's just say that I find myself longing for Jaffa stick fighting and grunting.

First, why is Teal'c even living in a bad neighborhood? After all his years on base (where his expenses are next to zero), are you telling me he couldn't afford a nice place in a good neighborhood? And wouldn't his friends maybe help him find something like that? And if the AF was so concerned why didn't they insist on him living near Sam or Daniel or other base personnel who could keep an eye on him and help him aclimate? That doesn't seem like too ridiculous of a restriction.

Second, the girl was too young! Especially when you consider that Teal'c is around 100 years old. I can see Teal'c befriending her and becoming protective, in a big brother sort of way, but sleeping with her just seemed entirely out of character to me. Yes, it does seem that Teal'c has a way with the ladies, but let's really consider who we've seen him with: his wife, his long lost love, and a fellow warrior with whom he shares a great deal in common and (at least at New Order) he was in some kind of a relationship with. He's actual quite an emotionally mature and faithful guy. This episode just makes him look like a horndog who takes advantage of a young girl in an emotionally weakend state to have a meaningless one night stand. I absolutely hate that!

Third, Teal'c may be confused by earth culture but he is extremely perseptive to what is actually going on around him. I can't see him agreeing to just run off with Krista without being suspicious that something was not right. I can't believe he would inform no one of his whereabouts when he realizes he's being followed, or put an innocent girl in danger. He would have called his team or gone back to the SGC. I can't believe that he's caught so completely off guard that Krista is taken under his nose and a SWAT team is able to sneak up on him.

Daniels part in the whole thing was equally idiotic because he also goes off to meet with the bad guys without informing anyone. (Does the team not even speak to one another anymore?)

Meanwhile, Sam is off wasting time with . And his part in it was a waste of time. Now I have no problem stating right out that my prejudice against is fixed and eternal. There was nothing TPTB could ever do after that horrible introduction in Chimera that would ever convince me that is worthy of any respect, but this is really a pretty weak attempt IMHO.

So we have cop who's brilliant idea for tracking down our bad guys is to call a pizza place?! Did no one think of getting a description or plate from the people/cameras/etc in and around the building. The rental car would have been parked there a lot more than at the pizza place. (And honestly, are you telling me that the Trust use a regular car rental agency instead unmarked vans? Please!)

Everything that found out Sam could have discovered quite easily on her own. She's done far more difficult investigative work and her resources and access are much greater than . (In Smoke & Mirrors they were able to track a guy's perscriptions in record time FCOL.) But now it's "oh I need your help." Yet another dimunition of Sam's character for the sake of a bad romance (even Lady GaGa would be disgusted).

And then what's the deal with bringing along on the raid?! They don't know what's going on and what they'll find there, and it's made clear at the beginning that has not been granted full security clearance (and I still maintain he shouldn't know anything at all; they didn't tell Krista anything and she was actually dragged into the action rather than stalker who interfered where he shouldn't have, and she was just as involved with a member of the team this point too, but I guess the rule isn't sleep with a member of SG1 once and get a free pass to top level national security secrets). I can't see why they would let him go in at all, and in the lead with Sam no less, both security and liability issues would say NO.

[hlndncr]

Told you this was going to be a long rant.

Sam's Storyline (the B plot)

Yes now I have to talk about Sam's relationship with and the disgusting idea of having her actually accept his ghastly proposal.

So the proposal scene from out of left field. He's not even sure she considers herself his girlfriend so he thought he'd test the waters with a proposal, in a park eating hot dogs no less (oh how romantic). If you ask me this guy is the epitomy of dense and self-absorbed and insecure. So he asks her about work, which comes off to me as he's still pushing her to put their relationship above her duty. Then he says he's doing it because he wants her to understand his position. It's all about him and how her job affects him. The he tells her (no consulting or discussing) that he's already put in for a transfer to CO Springs (we'll see later that making big life decisions without her is something he makes a habit of doing).

I still can't believe Sam puts up with his crap! Even thanking him for not leaving her and laughing off the stalking! It's not funny!

As I've said before, I don't think Sam really loves . I think it's clear from the conversation she has with the guys that she is feeling pressured (from within and without) to make something work with because that the romantic ideal (for her a life with Jack) is impossible, and is the guy who, as she pointed out, "stuck around."

So then we come to the incredibly angsty scene in Sam’s lab between her and Jack.

First, I have to compare ’s inability to know (or even care) what Sam really wants and needs with how perfectly in tune Jack is with her moods. He goes to her because he knows something is off and he’s worried about her. And for me the clue that tips him off, she hasn’t tried to confuse him with science for a couple of days, just shows not only how well he knows her but how well he accepts her. He hates scientific technobabble, but he knows she loves it, and from her he wants to hear it.

And isn’t it just tragic that Jack seems to be the one to hear all of Sam’s whining over her idiot boyfriend? He had to endure it in Chimera as well. And does it say something that Sam is always discussing her personal relationship with Jack and never with the person she is actually dating?

So then we come to the conversation. It is incredibly ambiguous and I don’t think a definitive conclusion can be reached as to what Sam or Jack was really saying. But I’m going to try and explain what I think they are saying (which I am still figuring out as I go so bear with me).

Sam begins by showing him the ring, but he is very noncommittal. He doesn’t ask any questions, he mostly prompts her a little and lets her talk. I think as usual he’s letting her set the terms and the boundaries of their relationship and their discussion.

So she’s been thinking about this proposal for two weeks (which seems like a pretty big clue to me that she doesn’t really want to marry , but what do I know). Jack seems to understand what that means. He does know that she has a tendency to think too much.

Then she talks about concentrating on work and saving “life” for later. She never seems to have contemplated the idea of having a family while she was still working for the SGC and going through the stargate. Maybe because she always thought that one day, far off family would be with Jack and so naturally, one or both of them would no longer be at the SGC. I get the feeling Jack’s thought about that too.

So why does he seem to be encouraging her to accept ’s proposal? I’m not sure. Maybe because he doesn’t want to be the one responsible for making her decision or standing in her way. Maybe because he really has concluded that she would be happier with someone else. Maybe because he doesn’t think there’s any way he can ever give her the life she wants, but he doesn’t want to see her miss out on anything.

Then we come to those two extremely obscure lines where both of them are trying to say so much and yet nothing at all.

Sam asks Jack, “What about you? If things were different . . .”

Since they were just talking about families I suppose it’s reasonable to conclude that Sam is asking if things were different and you still had a family would you be going through the gate? Of course he’s not going through the gate anymore. Or it could mean if it were you right now with the possibility of marrying someone else and having a family again, would you want that?

But I’m fairly convinced that what she is really asking is what would you do if things were different between us. Yet that leads me to wonder what things would be different and in what way? Is she saying, if I weren’t in the AF or you weren’t in the AF or we weren’t in the same chain of command, would you want to be with me? Is she simply trying to say, please give me a reason not to marry this moron?! I just need a hint, a little hope that something between us will somehow, someday be different, and there is a chance that we can “have a life.” I think that’s what she’s really hoping for and in the end, I don’t think she gets that.

Then there is Jack’s response, “I wouldn’t be here.”

I can think of all sorts of differences that would mean he wouldn’t be there at that moment. Charlie didn’t die; he went through with his plan to commit suicide (either at home or on the first Abydos mission); he didn’t feel an obligation to keep fighting so he could retire and go fishing (alone or with Sam). Who knows? What do I choose to believe he meant? I think I’m going to go with, “I can’t tell you don’t marry because we are going to win the fight against the goa’uld and we will find a way to be together someday, but if I did know that it was possible that we could be together without you sacrificing your career and me shirking what I see as my duty then we wouldn’t be here having a conversation about you marrying another guy.”

So Sam takes two weeks and has conversations with all her friends and still seems to be totally unsure (and pretty miserable really) about marrying ; she even gives him the “it’s not you; it’s me” line. Then out of the blue, while she’s on duty and in charge, she agrees to marry him and is all smiles and they have a rather disgusting snog in front of everyone. Now I know AT complained about that scene and a lot of the reason it was shot that way was time and money. But it is so unrealistic. I can see no character motivation whatsoever not just for Sam’s sudden decisiveness but her whole change of attitude. Marrying is suddenly the most wonderful happy thing in the world. Did seeing him in action convince her that he was the perfect guy for her? Really?! After seven years of going into combat with Jack where they are so perfectly in sync no words are even necessary? Has she become completely delusional? Did the bad guys leave behind an alien poison that caused immediate severe brain damage? I don’t even know who this woman is!

OK, I have to end this rant before I have an apoplectic fit.

[Petra]

Just a quick note re what hlndncr and Aveo Amacus said...I have to prepare myself mentally for Affinity, as I hate this ep with passion. It was the first ever SG-1 episode I hated and I'm in no hurry to watch it again. Sorry for those of you who like it.

I would like to think that any negative opinions expressed on this thread are done with respect and reason. I mean I never met a person who likes every episode. And I think that in the later seasons the characterization and stories were very inconsistent. Think there was more mediocre in early seasons where later season episodes were more often hit or miss than just average.

In case I wasn't clear, I didn't mean this thread. I like coming here, because we always stay respectful towards each other and people are truly interested in exchanging opinions instead of forcing them each other's throats.

However nowadays I post mainly in the SGU folder and...yeah. Let's just say that coming here and being able to express my love for the episode/series without having to defend my right to enjoy it in every single post I make is really welcome and quite rare these days. So, thank you Shippers.

((((((((((((((everybody participating in the thread))))))))))))))))))))

And I really liked Dr. Carmichael and would have been happy if they kept him around as the SGC CMO for the rest of the series.

Yeah, he was ok, I wouldn't have minded him (still like Brightman though ). I keep wondering though why they never brought Dr Warner back. I liked him too.

I think it's no coincedence that virtual Sam is the one concerned about losing Jack. The game is extrapolating reactions from Teal'c's experience, and he is a shipper; so naturally he would expect Sam to be the one to voice their remorse.

LOL. Good catch.

Although it brings up one of my main criticisms of Season 8 and that is the oversaturation of SGC/earth based episodes. In the first half of the season we a good portion of New Order 1 at the SGC, Lockdown, Zero Hour and Avatar that take place at the SGC, Affinity, Covenent, and End Game that are all earth based (with a brief trip to the alpha site and a few scenes in orbit above earth). Do they even remember how to use the stargate?

Well, I love NO, Lockdown, ZH and Avatar, but I would have gladly sacrificed Affinity, Covenant and End Game for some SG-1 off-world action.

Yeah I'd noticed how little stargate action there was in season 8, obviously due to Jack being grounded on Earth. It's one thing that annoys me when people claim that RDA was clearly phoning it in as the writers had obviously written a lot of the episodes on or around Earth to allow for him to be there in at least a part of the episode.

Those of you who've read my posts on various threads dedicated to discussing seasons 8-10 already know what I'm going to say. For the rest: the bolded doesn't make sense to me. Jack really doesn't have a big role in Affinity/Covenant/Sacrifices/End Game, not to mention PU. His amount of screentime/RDA's time wouldn't have changed at all if his scenes were instead used for the pre- & post-mission briefings, with the team off-world for the majority od the episode. Blaming RDA's schedule for the Earth based episodes in season 8 seems to be a cop-out; very convenient excuse that absolved the writers from having to work a little harder on the off-world episodes.

And now I return you to your regular, scheduled discussion