Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Petra]

Great review Josie! Have some mental green, since the system won't let me green you for real *pouts*

I won't be very original and say I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

I LOVED when Walter had the Radar (from MASH) vibe at the beginning. Very funny. His line, "He's not like other people," amusing and true.

Ah, if there's one thing I don't like about Zero Hour, it's this scene. I don't like Walter, plain and simple. I don't like that TPTB got this idea in their heads that SG-1 is a comedy show and tried to make Walter into another Radar. And I dislike this scene in particular because IMO Walter is very disrespectful towards Jack. He would never, ever make a similar remark about gen Hammond, nor would he imply that without Gilmore's help the base would be doomed because Hammond/Jack can't handle it.

So yeah...not a fan. I'm glad you like it though. Different strokes and all that.

I agree with Lucy that Daniel's reactions to Jack are very much in line with their on-going sibling type relationship. I don't think Daniel really ever saw Jack as the boss and so making the leap to commander of the base is a little lost on him, except perhaps in the way you sometimes figure you can take advantage or gain a favor if your brother or sister were the one in charge.

I agree that Daniel didn't intend to undermine Sam - that he and Jack have always been this way and as SG1 CO Jack was always his boss (even if Daniel forgot sometimes). But I think the crucial thing here is Sam, Daniel might not have thought that's what he was doing - he just sort of barrelled through like normal, but I think that at least subconciously Sam *did* hence the later scene we get with all of SG1

I never thought about Daniel's behaviour as undermining either Sam or Jack's authority - I just thought he was plain rude, the way he sometimes is - and I completely agree with hlndncr & Aveo.

In the barnyard, he says something about her seeing a shrink about her dreams and how she feels, and I wondered to myself how Sam would get to see a shrink in the sort of outback of Montana, when she can't talk to anybody about her background who doesn't have a security clearance of a very high level. And I wondered if that was a huge clue to her (besides the fact that she didn't believe the entire illusion) that the whole scenario wasn't real. Why would the SGC or the Pentagon assign a shrink to wherever in Montana she was supposed to be living just to be there to counsel her? Fifth really screwed up there, and I wish something had been commented on about this.

That's a good catch! I never noticed this, but I think you are right, it is a bit of a screw-up on Fifth's part.

[Kate1013]

Wow! Fab review! As always everything's already been said, so I have nothing to add except to say that I LOVE this epsiode!

[hlndncr]

Ah, if there's one thing I don't like about Zero Hour, it's this scene. I don't like Walter, plain and simple. I don't like that TPTB got this idea in their heads that SG-1 is a comedy show and tried to make Walter into another Radar. And I dislike this scene in particular because IMO Walter is very disrespectful towards Jack. He would never, ever make a similar remark about gen Hammond, nor would he imply that without Gilmore's help the base would be doomed because Hammond/Jack can't handle it.

I don't mind having a secondary character like Walter or Dr. Lee be the comic relief. I don't think it takes away from the show, and I really like the light moments, especially here at the beginning when Jack's problems all seem relatively benign but he's still struggling to get a handle on all of his new responsibilities. After all Jack had to work into the position whereas Hammond had many years as a general when he started at the SGC and he essentially built the place to be what it was.

I never took Walter's attitude as believing Jack was incompetent or that the place would fall apart without him getting help. I thought he was happy the aide was there because it was just less work for him. I'm sure he and Hammond had formed a rhythm and it was an adjustment for him too. And Walter treated Landry in the same way he treated Jack; so it's just how he breaks in a new general. He never had to break in Hammond.

[Akamaimom]

I'm pro-Walter, too. He makes me laugh. Of course, I think that in the end, MASH swung too far in the other direction, thus leading up to its demise. It got too dark and serious, with great far-reaching consequential stories that were depressing. So, I don't mind levity in my story lines. I think that's what made "Window of Opportunity" the genius episode that it is. There's a great build from confusion to humor to emotion that I adore. I love this episode, too, and Walter and the other players are a huge part of that.

[penjab]

Great review Josie!
Ah, if there's one thing I don't like about Zero Hour, it's this scene. I don't like Walter, plain and simple. I don't like that TPTB got this idea in their heads that SG-1 is a comedy show and tried to make Walter into another Radar. And I dislike this scene in particular because IMO Walter is very disrespectful towards Jack. He would never, ever make a similar remark about gen Hammond, nor would he imply that without Gilmore's help the base would be doomed because Hammond/Jack can't handle it.

So yeah...not a fan. I'm glad you like it though. Different strokes and all that.

I thought in the commentary that it was RDA's idea to have that Radar back and forth in Zero Hour. I could be remembering wrong but I could swear it said that idea was his.

[EvenstarSRV]

Hey everyone, sorry for the delay but RL's been hellish this week so I haven't been able to finish my write-up of Icon. I'll try to get it posted tomorrow!

[EvenstarSRV]

Sorry for the delay! Here it is, my first review.


Made by Treknik.

Synopsis
Daniel is stranded on another planet after the team's arrival on an alien world sparks a violent civil war.
(Taken from GW episode guide)

After Rand tourists are surprised by the activation of the Stargate in their museum, SG-1 comes through to make first contact. They find out that their arrival has confirmed the beliefs of some radicals who still believe in the ancient gods, threatening to destabilize Rand, which has also been in a state of cold war with its neighbor Caledonia for decades.

Over the next few weeks Soren, the leader of radicals, begins to take over key parts of Rand, leading Caledonia to threaten a state of war if Rand loses control over its weapons. Daniel convinces Jack to let him go back and negotiate a truce, but after Soren takes over a weapons site Caledonia launches a preemptive strike and Daniel and Kane barely make it out of the command bunker alive.

Recovering in Kane’s home and being nursed by his wife Lida, Daniel recovers and tries to make contact with the SGC and convince Kane and Lida to try to overthrow Soren. Meanwhile Sam, Teal’c, and Jack have been trying to contact Daniel and negotiate with Soren to allow them to search for their teammate.

Daniel is able to convince Kane to try to take the bunker back from Kane, and Sam is able to get in contact with Daniel, allowing him to give his team his plan for the assault. Daniel and Kane lead the Rand forces to take the bunker from the outside while Sam leads Teal’c and 3 SG teams through the Stargate, surrounding Soren and his people. Soren comes out to confront the group, secure in his faith, only to be shot by Kane. After promising to help Rand rebuild their country, Daniel returns home with his friends.

Favorite scene
Sam being the hand-signal person in charge and leading the SG teams into the bunker.

Favorite quote
JACK: Daniel, we’re always sticking our collective noses where they don’t belong. It’s what we do.

Analysis
This is an episode that I didn’t care for when I first watched it, and sadly it didn’t improve much for me the second time around. It starts with an interesting premise, what are some of the negative ramifications of the first contact SGC teams often make with new cultures. But this episode fails in the execution of that idea for me, which was not helped by the often clunky editing and dialog.

Rand and Caledonia were likely meant to be representations of the Cold war between US and Soviet Union, but this time complicated by the religious radicals led by Soren. While the characters talked about Soren taking over Rand and killing thousands, there was a lack of energy in the characters that made it hard for me to buy the urgency of their situation. I found it a little hard to believe that Kane and his followers were survivors struggling to survive when they were able to stroll through the countryside so casually.

This was very much a Daniel-centric episode, and so the bulk of it was focused on his struggle to remember what happened in the bunker and then trying to get back home, as well as convincing Kane and Lida not to give up hope of taking their country back. While I can definitely see Daniel feeling somewhat responsible for what happened to Rand and wanting to help, he mostly ended up standing to the side and listening to the Rand and Caledonian leaders talking, so I didn't see the point of him going back to the planet. I also thought it very odd that Jack would let him go back to a planet about to break out into a civil war without any back-up. And I didn’t care much for the bit of romantic sub-plot between Daniel and Lida, it just came across as clunky and out-of-place.

While I didn’t care for much of the story, the highlight of the episode for me was getting to see Sam as SG-1 leader while making first contact with Rand, and then later leading the troops into the bunker to take down Soren. It was nice to see Colonel Carter large and in charge, especially since we were given to little of it this season.

Sam and Jack
As a non-shipper, there was nothing in this episode that I would personally call shippy, but that’s probably not too surprising to anyone here. Overall they both seemed to have settled into a good working relationship in their new positions. The one slightly tense moment was when Jack rather abruptly tells Sam to find Daniel’s signal when she was describing their problems in doing that, but Jack has been known to get grumpy when one of his teammates is missing or in trouble. There was also the bit when Jack a bit more gently cuts Sam off when she’s trying to explain that they got through to Daniel. Since by this point Sam should know that Jack doesn’t need to hear ‘how’ she was able to do something, I think its either just force of habit for her after all these years, or its her way of kinda teasing him with her technobabble.

[josiane]

Thanks Evenstar! Congrats on your first review

In general, I agree with you that Icon is a bit of a weak episode. The premise is interesting, as are some of the issues explored, but I also can't really see that Daniel would have been allowed to go back on his own.

While I didn’t care for much of the story, the highlight of the episode for me was getting to see Sam as SG-1 leader while making first contact with Rand, and then later leading the troops into the bunker to take down Soren. It was nice to see Colonel Carter large and in charge, especially since we were given to little of it this season.

Yes indeed! Me too

Sam and Jack
As a non-shipper, there was nothing in this episode that I would personally call shippy, but that’s probably not too surprising to anyone here. Overall they both seemed to have settled into a good working relationship in their new positions. The one slightly tense moment was when Jack rather abruptly tells Sam to find Daniel’s signal when she was describing their problems in doing that, but Jack has been known to get grumpy when one of his teammates is missing or in trouble. There was also the bit when Jack a bit more gently cuts Sam off when she’s trying to explain that they got through to Daniel. Since by this point Sam should know that Jack doesn’t need to hear ‘how’ she was able to do something, I think its either just force of habit for her after all these years, or its her way of kinda teasing him with her technobabble.

Nope, nothing much shippy I don't think either, other than what you've said - they're just basically comfortable with each other and getting on with things (which can be seen as shippy too if you're so inclined ). On the technobabble thing, I think this is just their modus operandi - Sam babbles, Jack cuts her off. It's what they do If I put my shipper specs on, I like to think that it's a kind of teasing between them - Sam knows that Jack will cut her off and yet she does it anyway, and it's almost a game to see how much she can get out before he does. I don't always get that vibe, but on some occasions I definitely think there's a bit of that to it!

[Lucycat]

I think this touches on what was briefly mention previously, about Daniel not really seeing Jack as in charge where he (Daniel) is concerned. He knows how to push Jack's buttons... he badgered Jack until he agreed, but I think it's true that Jack should not have sent Daniel alone. He should have, at least, sent Teal'c with him. Teal'c would have known when to leave, and would not have been swayed by Daniel's posturing (imo).

I liked the scene when Daniel finally radioed in and used Gou'ld battle tactics in place of other words. That was clever. And, of course, seeing Sam lead the attack... go Carter!

[hlndncr]

I will definitely be back later to have my say on Icon. But first . . .

Oh yes, love is in the air! Which means it's almost that time of year again . . .

Valenship

Here is your official invite created by Bekki. Feel free to use the sig and avatar between now and the celebration (no hotlinking please). And please help spread the word to all our shipper friends.

We're going to have a great time. Can't wait to see you all there!

[hlndncr]

Great review. I agree with everything you said.

Analysis
This is an episode that I didn’t care for when I first watched it, and sadly it didn’t improve much for me the second time around. It starts with an interesting premise, what are some of the negative ramifications of the first contact SGC teams often make with new cultures. But this episode fails in the execution of that idea for me, which was not helped by the often clunky editing and dialog.

I never cared for this episode myself, but I've always had a hard time putting my finger on what I don't like about it. Your analysis was great because it put into words a lot of the things that bothered me.

I agree that the first contact idea was good and I really liked the museum scene. But I think they abandoned that interesting idea for the less interesting Daniel storyline that was supposed to hearken back to the English Patient (a movie I thought was also boring and uncompelling).

Rand and Caledonia were likely meant to be representations of the Cold war between US and Soviet Union, but this time complicated by the religious radicals led by Soren. While the characters talked about Soren taking over Rand and killing thousands, there was a lack of energy in the characters that made it hard for me to buy the urgency of their situation. I found it a little hard to believe that Kane and his followers were survivors struggling to survive when they were able to stroll through the countryside so casually.

I think some of the lack of urgency and believability is that they didn't have the production budget to show what was needed to sell the story. But I agree that the idealic farmhouse where Daniel is flirting with his (married) nurse made it very hard to accept that we are on a planet that was in the midst of a devastating world war that decimated the population. I mean they kept saying, but I just didn't believe it.

This was very much a Daniel-centric episode, and so the bulk of it was focused on his struggle to remember what happened in the bunker and then trying to get back home, as well as convincing Kane and Lida not to give up hope of taking their country back. While I can definitely see Daniel feeling somewhat responsible for what happened to Rand and wanting to help, he mostly ended up standing to the side and listening to the Rand and Caledonian leaders talking, so I didn't see the point of him going back to the planet. I also thought it very odd that Jack would let him go back to a planet about to break out into a civil war without any back-up. And I didn’t care much for the bit of romantic sub-plot between Daniel and Lida, it just came across as clunky and out-of-place.

I never really bought into the Daniel amnesia bit either. It seemed quite unnecessary, even as a gimmick to tell the story in flashbacks.

You are so right about Daniel not really having a purpose on the planet. I hadn't really paid attention to that before, but he really does just stand around and look worried. And I'm not sure what he thought he was going to do since Rand wasn't going to let him talk freely with the Caledonians and the religious extremist who took advantage of the situation certainly weren't interested in talking.

The situation reminds me a little too much of the Kelownans and we had no problem walking away from them when they couldn't get it together. Jack was right. We stick our collective noses where they don't belong and then we leave, and in this case I think rightly so.

While I didn’t care for much of the story, the highlight of the episode for me was getting to see Sam as SG-1 leader while making first contact with Rand, and then later leading the troops into the bunker to take down Soren. It was nice to see Colonel Carter large and in charge, especially since we were given to little of it this season.

I agree that I loved seeing Sam in charge and I really wish this show would have been more about that. But they just kept going around her. Sam did lead the team to make first contact. (Did it bother anyone else that they came strolling through the gate unarmed? I can't see Jack ever doing that even on a diplomatic mission.) But then Daniel goes directly to Jack about returning to the planet. I was annoyed by Daniel going over her head (probably more because he hasn't acknowledged that anything has changed than that he is consciously trying to undermine Sam), but I was even more annoyed at Jack. He should have made Daniel go through his team leader. Letting Daniel go back to the planet without even consulting Sam was a bad leadership on his part. She should have at least been consulted, especially because I think SG1 should have been sent as a team if he was going to send someone back to the planet. Then Jack takes over the negotiations to get Daniel back. I just think this is the first of many examples of how TPTB never really treated Sam like she actually was the leader of SG1, and it ticks me off.

Sam and Jack
As a non-shipper, there was nothing in this episode that I would personally call shippy, but that’s probably not too surprising to anyone here. Overall they both seemed to have settled into a good working relationship in their new positions. The one slightly tense moment was when Jack rather abruptly tells Sam to find Daniel’s signal when she was describing their problems in doing that, but Jack has been known to get grumpy when one of his teammates is missing or in trouble. There was also the bit when Jack a bit more gently cuts Sam off when she’s trying to explain that they got through to Daniel. Since by this point Sam should know that Jack doesn’t need to hear ‘how’ she was able to do something, I think its either just force of habit for her after all these years, or its her way of kinda teasing him with her technobabble.

OK even with my super heavy, extra rosey shippy glasses I saw nothing. I mean I think you found more ship than I did. How about that?

[Petra]

Great review. I agree with everything you said.

Ditto.

I agree that I loved seeing Sam in charge and I really wish this show would have been more about that.

Me too. What's worse, it was supposed to be a Sam ep!
GW reported that "Late last year, Damian Kindler pitched out a story in which Carter is stranded off-world, struggling to survive, while the rest of the team mounts a desperate bid to rescue her. As we began to prepare for Season Eight, it was felt that we had already done a fair amount of Sam stories and so, to redress the balance, "Get Carter" became "English Patient Daniel." "

I don't know about you guys, but I would have much preferred to see Sam stranded there, not Daniel. The angst possibilities! What a nice paralel to "100 days" it would have been...*sigh* Also, the scene with Daniel talking Goa'uld tactics would have made much more sense if it came from Sam, IMO.

I was annoyed by Daniel going over her head (probably more because he hasn't acknowledged that anything has changed than that he is consciously trying to undermine Sam), but I was even more annoyed at Jack. He should have made Daniel go through his team leader. Letting Daniel go back to the planet without even consulting Sam was a bad leadership on his part. She should have at least been consulted, especially because I think SG1 should have been sent as a team if he was going to send someone back to the planet. Then Jack takes over the negotiations to get Daniel back.

You know, I never thought of that, but you are completely right. I agree.

I just think this is the first of many examples of how TPTB never really treated Sam like she actually was the leader of SG1, and it ticks me off.

Well, I tend to think this is more along the lines of TPTB writing the character OOC to further their plot - something that started in season 7, got more prominent in season 8, especially in the middle part, and became the norm in the last 2 seasons - than their conscious failure to treat Sam as the SG-1 leader. I mean, 2 episodes later we have Daniel going off on his own playing James Bond and Teal'c being unable to lay low It's not just Sam who got the short stick.

I'll be back soon with my Avatar review, promise!

[hlndncr]

You know, I never thought of that, but you are completely right. I agree.

Well, I tend to think this is more along the lines of TPTB writing the character OOC to further their plot - something that started in season 7, got more prominent in season 8, especially in the middle part, and became the norm in the last 2 seasons - than their conscious failure to treat Sam as the SG-1 leader. I mean, 2 episodes later we have Daniel going off on his own playing James Bond and Teal'c being unable to lay low It's not just Sam who got the short stick.

I'll be back soon with my Avatar review, promise!

Regardless of whether is was a conscious decision by TPTB, the fact remains that Sam was never given the chance to shine as a leader (I don't think they did a good job with her in charge of Atlantis either, and I won't start a fight by mentioning what I thought of her appearences on SGU in command of the Hammond).

I agree with the desparate contortions the writers forced on the characters in the last few years.

Wait, we just agreed . . . twice. Did the universe implode?



*sighs with relief that universe is still here*



And don't worry about the review. I haven't been kicked out of the thread yet, even though I messed up the schedule twice last season because of my tardiness.

[Petra]

(I don't think they did a good job with her in charge of Atlantis either, and I won't start a fight by mentioning what I thought of her appearences on SGU in command of the Hammond).

Yep, it's probably not a good idea to start SGU discussion - it would be a heated one, since I disagree I do agree though that Sam's writing on SGA left a lot to be desired.

And don't worry about the review. I haven't been kicked out of the thread yet, even though I messed up the schedule twice last season because of my tardiness.

I had problems with Internet connection. It broke yesterday and even today I lost it twice Hence the delay, for which I nevertheless apologise.

So, hlndncr, are you ready to disagree with me again? We can’t risk the universe’s existence after all, can we? Just because it didn’t implode this one time...

AVATAR

*picture fancy Avatar banner here*


Fabulous banner by Bekki - it no longer has to be imagined

Summary: Teal'c is trapped in a virtual reality simulation, in which he must defend the base from a Goa'uld super-soldier incursion.
*taken from GW*

Favourite Line:
CARMICHAEL: Which would mean that there's a good chance that the second player could be trapped along with Teal'c.
(Jack, Sam and Daniel speak simultaneously.)
O'NEILL: I'll go.
JACKSON: I'll go.
CARTER: I'll do it.

Favourite scene: The final stand-off with all 4 members of SG-1 pointing guns at each other

Generally:

I love Avatar. I wanted to review only the episodes I really like, because the forum is so full of negativity these days, that I wanted to have something to cherish and write good things about. Josiane, awesome person that she is, was kind enough to grant my request. So here I am, after Lockdown gushing about another episode. Bear with me please.

There are 2 things that set Avatar apart from other Teal'c episodes. One, although it is thought of as Teal’c episode, IMO it’s more of a team episode with focus on Teal’c. Two, with the exception of The Changeling, it’s the only Teal'c-centric episode that doesn’t deal with the Jaffa in any way.

It also reminds me a lot of WoO, because it starts out as this light-hearted action piece and somewhere along the way morphs into more serious, interesting look into Teal’c psyche and inner workings of the team.

Everything in this episode feels right. I like the fact that dr Lee is presented as faulty and amusing, but still intelligent scientist and not a bumbling idiot. I like dr Carmichael, even if dr Warner would have provided more continuity. Speaking of which, I love how the chairs from “Gamekeeper” are used again and that apparently we keep in touch with that world (yes, I’m one of those weird folks who like “Gamekkeper” ).

Sam, while not shown in charge per se, gets to shine as a scientist and soldier, which is always nice to see. Regardless of whether she is in charge of the chair tests with Teal’c due to being his CO or due to being a scientist working on them, she’s present all the time and she takes care of the situation like a team leader ought to. Jack is present in all the right moments, trusting Sam to handle things and call him in only when something significant happens that he should know. Also, despite delivering many one-liners, I don’t think he was dumbed down in this one. In fact, I really like the explanation that he can’t go into the game due to his tactical experience. On that note, it’s cool that Daniel is chosen precisely because he’s the least experienced and knowledgeable out of all SG-1 members. It’s a refreshing moment and allows for some nice Daniel-Teal’c friendship moments. And I love their friendship.

Sam and Teal’c have a few nice friendshippy moments too (I’m a sucker for their friendship as well). Their exchange:

CARTER (to Teal'c): You've played Doom.
TEAL'C (smiling): I played Def Jam Vendetta.

is pretty funny when you are aware of the in-joke (apparently Chris Judge was the voice of Def Jam Vendetta in the game ). Teal’c and Jack share a few nice moments too, in the game as well as in ‘reality.”

As I mentioned, this episode is full of teaminess and caring for each other. The moment I cited as my favourite line captures it the best, IMO: SG-1 will do everything for each other.

Finally, I really need to commend CJ’s superb acting.

Sam/Jack:

For the episode when they don’t have much screen time together, there are many friendshippy or shippy, depending on the strength of your shippy!glasses, moments and really nice touches (not in the physical sense – get your minds out of the gutter! )

First off, we have a really sweet, affectionate, comfortable interplay between them at the beginning, when Jack traditionally wants Sam to explain how the chairs/game function to him, and she in turn laughs at his jokes and is clearly amused at dr Lee’s slip about the beginners’ level for Jack. They stand close together, they often mimic each other’s poses. It’s clear they “get” each other.

Then we have Sam, as the only one, expressing her disbelief that Jack is dead and even more warm, affectionate interaction between her and Jack in “reality”, for example when she uses Jack’s simple idea. Also, their exchange when Jack complains he should have gone into the game instead of Daniel gives me strong couple vibe.

Finally, there’s my favourite scene with Naquadah generator about to explode. I just love how Jack defends Sam, trusting her implicitly, how the moment Teal’c points his gun at Jack, Sam grabs hers and points it at Teal’c and how Jack shouts “Carter!” when goa’uld!Siler attacks. She’s the first and the only one he instinctively warns.

All in all though, there’s a lot of “we like each other, we trust each other and we are comfortable together” goodness that is lovely to watch.

[hlndncr]

Great review Petra! I'm afraid the universe is a goner because I agree with everything you said.