Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Lucycat]

the last scene of 'chimera', of her bringing him a gift and telling him all about the program... wow. just when did sam become a doormat? :/

I HATE HATE HATE this scene!!! It just peeved me so much that she was allowed to tell Pete about the highest, most top-secret base on the planet!! There are hundreds of men and women in service who aren't allowed to tell their SPOUSES what they do! There is no way he should have been allowed that knowledge, it was just ridiculous!

[Nynaeve506]

Jack did admit his feelings for Sam (and vise versa) in Divide & Conquer, so in the real AF (not a TV show!) they should have been separated at that point, despite their "leave it in the room" comment. Janet, Teal'c and Freya/Anise witnessed the exchange. Now, we know Teal'c wouldn't say anything, but Janet would probably be obligated being CMO, despite the fact she is their friend. And I have no doubt Anise/Freya would also report her findings.

Anyway, I digress... my question for Nyna, since she served in the AF... if Sam is transferred to another SG team, then would she and Jack have been allowed to date or would they still been off limits since they are still serving at the same base, and he is still a superior officer, if not her CO??

Yes (and I've said before, as have others) Hammond should have removed either Sam or Jack after D&C. Janet would have been obligated to report it (and as much fun as some in fandom think it is that Janet would have been all about keeping the secret - she's a military officer and the military doesn't work if they employ people who are okay with bending rules.).

In previous discussions about Sam transferring to another SG team, I think it would only be acceptable if Jack stepped down from being Hammond's back up. I know I for one think of them being married now, thereby sidestepping the regulations (to an extent - the USAF can order you to cease and desist an inappropriate relationship, but cannot order you to get divorced - they would have to find some way of accommodating them).

I HATE HATE HATE this scene!!! It just peeved me so much that she was allowed to tell Pete about the highest, most top-secret base on the planet!! There are hundreds of men and women in service who aren't allowed to tell their SPOUSES what they do! There is no way he should have been allowed that knowledge, it was just ridiculous!

I hate this scene, the utter stupidity of it aside, because it does a great disservice to the spouses of service men and women. My father flew black ops for the USAF and my mom wasn't allowed to know where he was, when he was coming back, or even how long he would be gone (we have a bit of a morbid joke in our house - on my dad's tombstone we're going to put "Gotta go. Don't know when I'll be back. Don't spend any money while I'm gone.").

The determination and the strength of my mother with two toddlers (and of course, older school kids ) having to say goodbye to her husband in a foreign country and not know if he would even come home alive was amazing. Pete does something idiotic and he gets to find out about the whole program??? SERIOUSLY??

Hmph.

I don't go ballistic on Pete a lot, but this, right here, always gets my knickers in a wad.

[siles]

Yes (and I've said before, as have others) Hammond should have removed either Sam or Jack after D&C. Janet would have been obligated to report it (and as much fun as some in fandom think it is that Janet would have been all about keeping the secret - she's a military officer and the military doesn't work if they employ people who are okay with bending rules.).

In previous discussions about Sam transferring to another SG team, I think it would only be acceptable if Jack stepped down from being Hammond's back up. I know I for one think of them being married now, thereby sidestepping the regulations (to an extent - the USAF can order you to cease and desist an inappropriate relationship, but cannot order you to get divorced - they would have to find some way of accommodating them).



I hate this scene, the utter stupidity of it aside, because it does a great disservice to the spouses of service men and women. My father flew black ops for the USAF and my mom wasn't allowed to know where he was, when he was coming back, or even how long he would be gone (we have a bit of a morbid joke in our house - on my dad's tombstone we're going to put "Gotta go. Don't know when I'll be back. Don't spend any money while I'm gone.").

The determination and the strength of my mother with two toddlers (and of course, older school kids ) having to say goodbye to her husband in a foreign country and not know if he would even come home alive was amazing. Pete does something idiotic and he gets to find out about the whole program??? SERIOUSLY??

Hmph.

I don't go ballistic on Pete a lot, but this, right here, always gets my knickers in a wad.

Especially when you compare this with how Jacob found out. He was a retired USAF general on his deathbed and they still wouldn't have told him if they hadn't needed a host for Selmak.

[hlndncr]

Especially when you compare this with how Jacob found out. He was a retired USAF general on his deathbed and they still wouldn't have told him if they hadn't needed a host for Selmak.

Hadn't put those two together before. Excellent point!

[Lucycat]

In previous discussions about Sam transferring to another SG team, I think it would only be acceptable if Jack stepped down from being Hammond's back up. I know I for one think of them being married now, thereby sidestepping the regulations (to an extent - the USAF can order you to cease and desist an inappropriate relationship, but cannot order you to get divorced - they would have to find some way of accommodating them)..

Hummm.... well, I don't think Jack would mind not being the base 2inC... he was always shown to enjoy field work over base operations... and he'd get to go home with Carter, surely a better deal

I hate this scene, the utter stupidity of it aside, because it does a great disservice to the spouses of service men and women. My father flew black ops for the USAF and my mom wasn't allowed to know where he was, when he was coming back, or even how long he would be gone (we have a bit of a morbid joke in our house - on my dad's tombstone we're going to put "Gotta go. Don't know when I'll be back. Don't spend any money while I'm gone.").

The determination and the strength of my mother with two toddlers (and of course, older school kids ) having to say goodbye to her husband in a foreign country and not know if he would even come home alive was amazing. Pete does something idiotic and he gets to find out about the whole program??? SERIOUSLY??

Hmph.

I don't go ballistic on Pete a lot, but this, right here, always gets my knickers in a wad.

Agreed... very disrespectful! And your Mom sounds like a very brave lady!

[Lucycat]

Especially when you compare this with how Jacob found out. He was a retired USAF general on his deathbed and they still wouldn't have told him if they hadn't needed a host for Selmak.

Yup... and same with Sara in Cold Lazurs. I'm sure Jack couldn't tell her the real reason behind the appearance of their deceased child or his extremely sensitive doppelganger.

[Aveo_amacus]

I agree with everyone over the bad handling of everything Pete-wise, they clearly wanted him to know and tried to force it to fit

On the Sam leaving Pete for Jack thing I think I'll leave it for when we discuss threads in as far as I see Sam leaving Pete because *that* relationship didn't work. (whether part of the reason it didn't work was because she realised she was in love with someone else is only part of it)

[EvenstarSRV]

I'll save most of my comments on the and Weir situation for when we get to New Order.

I will say that it is just as plausible to believe someone can get engaged without actually being in love as it is for someone to be in love with more than one person, and it's not always about being desperate. You can't ignore the fact (well I suppose you can, but it makes little sense to me) that Jack not being available is the catalyst for Sam dating Pete. If Jack were available she'd be with him! Yes, she could choose to be alone, which she did for quite some time, but after the events in Grace she decided to try something different. But one of the things the events in Lost City (and even to certain extent New Order) proves for me is that Jack is her first choice and she would dump if being with Jack became an option.

I can agree that Jack's unavailability was a factor in Sam's decision to start dating Pete (though IMHO there were other more significant factors involved), but I don't think she stayed with him and got engaged to him because of Jack's continued unavailability. I personally don't think it was ever an either/or between Pete and Jack for Sam, where if she couldn't have Jack she was 'stuck' with Pete. That's what I meant by 'desperate,' I don't think Sam was ever so intent on not being alone, even after Grace, that because she couldn't have Jack she'd stay with Pete even though she didn't love him.

As for if Sam would leave Pete for Jack, this is getting quite a bit ahead of ourselves, but in Threads Sam ends up breaking off her engagement with Pete when as far as she knows Jack's still seeing Kerry and therefore was still unavailable. Based on that, IMHO, Sam's decision to stay or break up with Pete was not significantly dependent on Jack's availability.

You can get engaged to someone or even married without being in love/loving them. IMHO Sam loved the idea of Pete (a husband who cares for her) more than she loved him.

I agree with that in general, however in my opinion of the Sam character I don't think she would have gotten engaged to Pete if she didn't truly believe that she loved him, though I do agree that it was a mix of the idea of Pete and Pete himself. (Of course, I also think that Sam and Jack's feelings for each other are similarly mixed). Rather like I believe Sam sincerely loved Jonas when she got engaged the first time, though of course her feelings later changed. As Akamaimom said, I think they both would have gotten married with the best of intentions and made an honest and sincere effort at their relationship. Would it have lasted? Who knows, I'd guess probably not very long considering the stresses of Sam's job and Pete's issues with the secrecy involved with it.

[josiane]

Hate to interrupt the fantastic discussion but..

Shipper Rewatch Season 8
Call for Write-ups

We'll be starting on season 8 in the New Year, and I'll be putting the schedule together shortly. I've only had a couple of people volunteer to do write-ups, which isn't really enough yet. If you fancy doing even one, please PM me! Let me know how many episodes you'd like to do, if there's any dates you know you won't be around, and if there are any episodes you particularly do or don't want to review. Thanks everyone!

[Nynaeve506]

I agree with that in general, however in my opinion of the Sam character I don't think she would have gotten engaged to Pete if she didn't truly believe that she loved him, though I do agree that it was a mix of the idea of Pete and Pete himself. (Of course, I also think that Sam and Jack's feelings for each other are similarly mixed). Rather like I believe Sam sincerely loved Jonas when she got engaged the first time, though of course her feelings later changed. As Akamaimom said, I think they both would have gotten married with the best of intentions and made an honest and sincere effort at their relationship. Would it have lasted? Who knows, I'd guess probably not very long considering the stresses of Sam's job and Pete's issues with the secrecy involved with it.

Agreed. Whether or not she truly loved Pete is more than we can *really* know for sure, but I'm with you that at the very least, she believed herself in love with Pete.

I also agree that it was never an either or with Pete and Jack. I'm of the opinion that Pete represented what she thought she wanted (or what she thought she should want) and that's why she continued to be with him for as long as she did.

[Zoser]

I tend to think that all of SG1 had to be removed from the Antarctica site where Jack was under threat of force (think Fifth Man and the confrontation with Hammond) and won over by the simple truth that they did not have the resources to stay without support. On the plus side, they knew Jack was safe..

I agree

It's apparent at the beginning of New Order, that there has been a significant period of time that has passed (I remember 3 months but it could have been 2) and that the team have been working actively to try and find a solution (Sam mentions they've tried contacting the Asgard several times) but that there has been little gate travel and nothing at the Antarctica site because of the negotiations taking place between the various international members of the IOA.

It seems like they've been promised that they'll go back as soon as an agreement is reached. And once the latest at the beginning of New Order falls through - again it seems - Sam has evidently had enough and pulls out the big guns of her plan to reach the Asgard and save Jack (all but blackmailing Weir and effectively risking career to get what she wants). So I don't think Sam ever does stop working to find a way to get Jack fixed but is trying to play by the rules up until that disappointment at the beginning of New Order.

In that respect, I think a lot of her mental and emotional energy was focused on Jack during the months of his absence.

I thought the failure of the negotiations was the last straw for Sam. Sam is risking her life for Jack, he's not in danger but she can't leave him like that - sounds like love to me.

Frankly, I'll be honest and say finding out Sam was still with Pete in New Order was a big disconnect for me after Lost City. I'd come out of Lost City with 'yay Sam loves Jack; he loves her yay' and New Order was like 'huh?? she's still seeing Pete?? huh???'

I was totally amazed (and not in a good way) when Pete reappeared. A definite WTF moment. It seemed Jack wasn't the only one who used a yoyo.

[Zoser]

I'll save most of my comments on the and Weir situation for when we get to New Order.

I will say that it is just as plausible to believe someone can get engaged without actually being in love as it is for someone to be in love with more than one person, and it's not always about being desperate. You can't ignore the fact (well I suppose you can, but it makes little sense to me) that Jack not being available is the catalyst for Sam dating Pete. If Jack were available she'd be with him! Yes, she could choose to be alone, which she did for quite some time, but after the events in Grace she decided to try something different. But one of the things the events in Lost City (and even to certain extent New Order) proves for me is that Jack is her first choice and she would dump if being with Jack became an option.

And Pete is one of the few people that Sam can have a relationship with that knows about the Stargate. It makes life simpler if you can share all that is meaningful to you with another and not have to be on guard with every word you say.

[hedwig]

And Pete is one of the few people that Sam can have a relationship with that knows about the Stargate. It makes life simpler if you can share all that is meaningful to you with another and not have to be on guard with every word you say.

Except that he was only given limited clearance to know about the Stargate program; not everything about what Sam did. If I remember correctly, in Threads, when Pete got off the elevator to come and meet Jacob, he was very excited about having received "full security clearance", which I assume he didn't have until that point. So I'm quite sure that there were still many things Sam couldn't talk with him about during their year or so together.

[Zoser]

I agree that Sam loved Pete. There are different depths of love--and I feel certain that Sam did indeed feel love for Pete. That doesn't mean to say that Pete would have been the best choice for her in the long run. I'm not sure that the marriage would have lasted--even though I do believe that they both would have entered into it with the best of intentions. I think that eventually the lack of trust and respect exhibited to different degrees by both of them would have festered and overflowed.

Marriage can work if both parties are dedicated to the marriage, even if they aren't completely, madly, and totally in love and lust with each other. It won't be blissful if that's all you've got, but if you have two people of honor and integrity who make that choice to remain together, then they can. Having success as a common goal can be very bonding. Passion is not necessary in a marriage--but it really really really really really helps.

But what I fervently believe is that they both would have made a good go of it, and that they could have been happy, if Sam weren't more deeply in love and respect and trust with Jack than with Pete. I don't think that Pete is a bad guy--and I don't think that Sam is a saint. I think that going as far as to say "yes" to Pete while trying to sublimate her feelings for Jack is a mistake, just as I think that Jack's NOT telling Sam how he truly feels is a mistake.

I'm just glad that she wised up, and that he wised up, and that Pete went away, and that Jack and Sam are now (in my mind, at least), together.

Love and passion cycle in a marriage or relationship like most everything in life. There are time (and sometimes months) when you could easily smother your beloved spouse in his sleep and time when he is a god among men - mostly it runs somewhere in the middle (trust, affection, commitment, etc.).
Sometimes with a new love it burns hot, cools to a mid simmer and fall off into the lukewarm of "What am I doing??"
I see the first as Sam and Jack and the second as Sam and Pete.

[mara-anni]

*pos in*

Howdie Shippers!

Just thought I'd drop in the link to a fic I've just posted. It's not new... well it's new in that I have never posted it before... but I wrote it years ago and forgot about it. Anyway, if you're interested, here's the link:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6611075/...ions_with_SG11

*pops out again*