Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Lucycat]

Sorry for the double post.

I was just wondering about the schedule.

We still have four more episodes to finish up season 7. It would be nice to get through them before the holidays (and I know everyone is already very busy on that front), and then we could discuss how/when we would like to do season 8 after the new year.

So I would propose the following:

Dec. 6: Resurrection - Josiane
Dec. 9: Inaguration - Cags
Dec. 13: Lost City 1 - Lucycat
Dec. 14: Lost City 2 - Cags

I'm willing to play back up on the reviews if needed.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

I guess I gotta start working on my Lost City part 1 review!

[josiane]

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Synopsis
SG1 (minus Jack, who is otherwise elsewhere this episode), are called to a warehouse in Los Angeles where some kind of massacre has taken place. Everyone's favourite NID agent, Malcolm Barrett, is there, along with a creepy guy and a strange girl in a cage. CCTV footage shows that the girl killed everyone - the question is why. Creepy guy is creepy, Daniel bonds with the strange girl, Sam does some computer hacking, Teal'c and Dr Lee try to deactivate a goa'uld bomb, then there's a fire and some running around and creepy guy and strange girl end up dead.

Analysis
This episode is an odd one. There's things about it I really like, but overall it's one of the ones that leaves me resolutely 'meh'. Maybe it's the complete lack of Jack, who is dismissed in one of the very first lines, but the episode I most compare it to is Nightwalkers, which I do like. The concept is interesting, it fits into the development of the rogue NID/dodgy dealings on Earth arc, and I love the way it looks, but yet overall it doesn't do much for me.

Anyway, to expand a bit more... while this episode is on the one hand very standalone, with the main characters never coming back again afterwards (well, dying does tend to put the kibosh on that kind of thing), it does fit nicely into established mythology and arcs. Anna is, as Daniel himself points out, a call-back to the harcesis storyline that we saw in earlier seasons. And Keffler fits nicely into the vein of the morally ambiguous antagonists who claim to be working for the greater good and on the same side as our heroes, but have fewer qualms about the ethics of their methods. This episode also fits with the recurring theme of 'what would happen if a Goa'uld turned up on Earth', and the idea that there could be danger lurking in corners at home that is just as threatening potentially as huge honkin' spaceships dropping down from the sky. Here we have a rogue scientist building his own Goa'uld, and it brings with it a whole slew of questions about the Goa'uld and their human hosts - I like the point that Keffler makes to Sam that SG1 have killed a lot of Goa'uld without giving their hosts a second thought.

The other question that this episode raises is about the extent to which the physical form is actually relevant at all to the Goa'uld. As we've always seen, due to their parasitical nature, they don't really much care for their own bodies - they're rather weak and limited in their native form, hence their taking over of first unas and then humans so that they have increased strength and power. In the matter of the harcesis and Anna, though, we actually have Goa'uld without being physically Goa'uld - the complete separation of the knowledge and consciousness from the body. Of course, the harcesis was brought up to be less homicidal than your average Goa'uld by Oma, who is herself an expert in separating consciousness from form, but Anna doesn't have an Oma and also has been mixed with the DNA of an actual Goa'uld, instead of just from Goa'uld parents. Therefore her Goa'uld personality, when it emerges (and this struggle for dominance is rather like we see with immature Goa'uld anyway), is a full-on homicidal maniac.

Aside from raising all these interesting points though, I have to admit the story doesn't do a huge amount for me, as it ends up turning into a pretty straightforward Frankenstein's monster thing, and the whole bomb part just feels like a distraction designed to both fill some time and also engender some kind of urgency. It's a ticking clock which to be honest I don't think we needed. What I like most about this episode though is the look and feel of it. It's a very claustrophobic set-up, and the lighting and direction really reflect this. I have to fangirl Amanda Tapping's direction here, as her first time out she did an awesome job and has obviously learnt well from the master If I have any criticism it would be that at times it does feel a bit like she's thrown the kitchen sink at it - we get so many crazy camera angles and cool reflections and stylish moving shots that you notice the direction more than really perhaps you should. But a lot of the shots are very beautifully done - I particularly adore the final pull-back with Anna dying and then Keffler dead in the foreground, with all that darkness around them - and it does match the overall set-up of the episode so overall a thumbs up from me.

Sam and Jack
Well considering we have no Jack, and no mention of Jack bar a sentence at the start, there's not exactly a lot to go on here! If you'll forgive me stretching the brief here rather a lot, I'll talk a bit about Barrett and then make a super-tenuous connection, but I think that's all I can manage!

I do like Barrett. Of all Sam's suitors, he's about the only one I don't vehemently dislike, and I kind of feel a bit sorry for him because he keeps trying, bless him, and gets nothing but knock-backs. He asks her out again here, and she tells him she's seeing someone (confirmation that Pete's still on the scene, although he's not mentioned by name), which in retrospect is a lot like the scene in Ex Deus Machina where we get the 'not exactly' response. To crowbar in a weeny bit of shippiness here with a big rear-view mirror, Sam's evasiveness in the two scenes is an interesting comparison - she's clearly uncomfortable with him asking her out, both times, giving of a vibe of wanting to get him to change the subject and go back to work, and neither time does she offer any information other than the minimum necessary to get the message across. But of course the 'not exactly' scene is a little bit more evasive and uncomfortable, as there she is not only seeing someone, but seeing someone that Barrett knows and that she'd rather he didn't find out about.

Wow, told you that was stretching it a bit...

[hlndncr]

Great review on a difficult episode!

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Analysis
This episode is an odd one. There's things about it I really like, but overall it's one of the ones that leaves me resolutely 'meh'. Maybe it's the complete lack of Jack, who is dismissed in one of the very first lines, but the episode I most compare it to is Nightwalkers, which I do like. The concept is interesting, it fits into the development of the rogue NID/dodgy dealings on Earth arc, and I love the way it looks, but yet overall it doesn't do much for me.

I find this episode extremely boring and I think odd is definitely a good way to describe it. It doesn't even feel very Stargatey to me. (Reminds me a little bit of SGU, except I don't despise it quite as much.) It's all sit around and talk, and even the climax at the end is not particularly climactic.

As far as Jack is concerned, I'm kind of glad he's not there (and that they didn't waste RDA's limited time on this one). I really have no idea what Jack would have to do in this story; he just doesn't fit. I think if Jack were there he would have walked in, shot Keffler and Anna and said, "OK, pack it up people. We've got real work to do."

Anyway, to expand a bit more... while this episode is on the one hand very standalone, with the main characters never coming back again afterwards (well, dying does tend to put the kibosh on that kind of thing), it does fit nicely into established mythology and arcs. Anna is, as Daniel himself points out, a call-back to the harcesis storyline that we saw in earlier seasons. And Keffler fits nicely into the vein of the morally ambiguous antagonists who claim to be working for the greater good and on the same side as our heroes, but have fewer qualms about the ethics of their methods. This episode also fits with the recurring theme of 'what would happen if a Goa'uld turned up on Earth', and the idea that there could be danger lurking in corners at home that is just as threatening potentially as huge honkin' spaceships dropping down from the sky. Here we have a rogue scientist building his own Goa'uld, and it brings with it a whole slew of questions about the Goa'uld and their human hosts - I like the point that Keffler makes to Sam that SG1 have killed a lot of Goa'uld without giving their hosts a second thought.

The other question that this episode raises is about the extent to which the physical form is actually relevant at all to the Goa'uld. As we've always seen, due to their parasitical nature, they don't really much care for their own bodies - they're rather weak and limited in their native form, hence their taking over of first unas and then humans so that they have increased strength and power. In the matter of the harcesis and Anna, though, we actually have Goa'uld without being physically Goa'uld - the complete separation of the knowledge and consciousness from the body. Of course, the harcesis was brought up to be less homicidal than your average Goa'uld by Oma, who is herself an expert in separating consciousness from form, but Anna doesn't have an Oma and also has been mixed with the DNA of an actual Goa'uld, instead of just from Goa'uld parents. Therefore her Goa'uld personality, when it emerges (and this struggle for dominance is rather like we see with immature Goa'uld anyway), is a full-on homicidal maniac.

Josi, you are just deep. Like I can picture a drunk Daniel trying to explain to Jack your depth. The philosphical layers you find in these episodes fascinates me, and in this case, much more so than the episode itself.

Aside from raising all these interesting points though, I have to admit the story doesn't do a huge amount for me, as it ends up turning into a pretty straightforward Frankenstein's monster thing, and the whole bomb part just feels like a distraction designed to both fill some time and also engender some kind of urgency. It's a ticking clock which to be honest I don't think we needed.

I agree. I think it also may have been a way to give Teal'c something to do. (I think he might have even preferred fishing with Jack to this pointless mission.) And Dr. Lee seems to have been included to add some comic relief, which I thought fell very flat. It also did quite a disservice to his character. This is the beginning of the bumbling, incompetent Dr. Lee. Up to this point he had be rather reliable and competent and could mostly hold his own with our team.

What I like most about this episode though is the look and feel of it. It's a very claustrophobic set-up, and the lighting and direction really reflect this. I have to fangirl Amanda Tapping's direction here, as her first time out she did an awesome job and has obviously learnt well from the master If I have any criticism it would be that at times it does feel a bit like she's thrown the kitchen sink at it - we get so many crazy camera angles and cool reflections and stylish moving shots that you notice the direction more than really perhaps you should. But a lot of the shots are very beautifully done - I particularly adore the final pull-back with Anna dying and then Keffler dead in the foreground, with all that darkness around them - and it does match the overall set-up of the episode so overall a thumbs up from me.

Agree strongly with the bolded. I think when AT got this script she must have either said, "Wow, my first time directing. I better show them everything I can do" or "Wow, this is the most boring script ever. What can I possibly do to make this look even half-way interesting?"

Sam and Jack
Well considering we have no Jack, and no mention of Jack bar a sentence at the start, there's not exactly a lot to go on here! If you'll forgive me stretching the brief here rather a lot, I'll talk a bit about Barrett and then make a super-tenuous connection, but I think that's all I can manage!

As we rapidly approach the shippy abyss of seasons 9 and 10 I think it is good to practice stretching now, as we wouldn't want to get hurt with the grand contortions we will be forced to do later.

I do like Barrett. Of all Sam's suitors, he's about the only one I don't vehemently dislike, and I kind of feel a bit sorry for him because he keeps trying, bless him, and gets nothing but knock-backs. He asks her out again here, and she tells him she's seeing someone (confirmation that Pete's still on the scene, although he's not mentioned by name), which in retrospect is a lot like the scene in Ex Deus Machina where we get the 'not exactly' response. To crowbar in a weeny bit of shippiness here with a big rear-view mirror, Sam's evasiveness in the two scenes is an interesting comparison - she's clearly uncomfortable with him asking her out, both times, giving of a vibe of wanting to get him to change the subject and go back to work, and neither time does she offer any information other than the minimum necessary to get the message across. But of course the 'not exactly' scene is a little bit more evasive and uncomfortable, as there she is not only seeing someone, but seeing someone that Barrett knows and that she'd rather he didn't find out about.

Wow, told you that was stretching it a bit...

I don't mind Barrett, but there's something about him that rubs me the wrong way and I've never been able to exactly put my finger on it. But if given the choice of Sam dating him or ? I would definitely choose Barrett; although it is very clear from this and other episodes that Sam has absolutely no interest in him and has no problem brushing him off. I don't even think it's just Barrett's bad timing. I really think Sam would say no to him regardless. In this case, the "seeing someone" line feels more like a convenient excuse to back out gracefully. I'm definitely not sensing from her that her relationship with has reached serious commitment territory, at least from her POV.

One thing that I did notice about that scene was the music cue they used. Now I'm not one to normally notice the music, but I did several times in this episode because it really seemed off to me. It just didn't help the emotion or the intensity of the scenes, which is what it is supposed to do. Maybe Joel also had the week off and he and Jack are at the cabin in Minnasota knocking back a few cold ones.

In any case, the music they used in the date invite seen was from Urgo. Does that suggest something about either or both of them being delusional about their feelings? Maybe it shows that Sam is seeing things in that aren't really there, just as Barrett may be doing the same with Sam? Or maybe Sam's whole relationship with is just a big joke (on us the fans, and the shippers in particular)! Hahaha! Just had to throw that one out there.

[josiane]

As far as Jack is concerned, I'm kind of glad he's not there (and that they didn't waste RDA's limited time on this one). I really have no idea what Jack would have to do in this story; he just doesn't fit. I think if Jack were there he would have walked in, shot Keffler and Anna and said, "OK, pack it up people. We've got real work to do."

Yes, he so would have done

Josi, you are just deep. Like I can picture a drunk Daniel trying to explain to Jack your depth. The philosphical layers you find in these episodes fascinates me, and in this case, much more so than the episode itself.

My depth is immaterial to this conversation

(But seriously, aw shucks I'd say it's just a case of a former literature student WAY overthinking everything )

I don't mind Barrett, but there's something about him that rubs me the wrong way and I've never been able to exactly put my finger on it. But if given the choice of Sam dating him or ? I would definitely choose Barrett; although it is very clear from this and other episodes that Sam has absolutely no interest in him and has no problem brushing him off. I don't even think it's just Barrett's bad timing. I really think Sam would say no to him regardless. In this case, the "seeing someone" line feels more like a convenient excuse to back out gracefully. I'm definitely not sensing from her that her relationship with has reached serious commitment territory, at least from her POV.

I agree, and I think if anything Sam comes across as a little relieved to have the excuse at last. It is a way for the writers to point out though that Pete is still on the scene, otherwise we could have happily forgotten about him. And seeing as we actually don't see all that much of Pete during his arc (thankfully!), these little mentions are the way the writers keep the relationship alive so that next time he does turn up we remember who he is and what we're doing there!

One thing that I did notice about that scene was the music cue they used. Now I'm not one to normally notice the music, but I did several times in this episode because it really seemed off to me. It just didn't help the emotion or the intensity of the scenes, which is what it is supposed to do. Maybe Joel also had the week off and he and Jack are at the cabin in Minnasota knocking back a few cold ones.

In any case, the music they used in the date invite seen was from Urgo. Does that suggest something about either or both of them being delusional about their feelings? Maybe it shows that Sam is seeing things in that aren't really there, just as Barrett may be doing the same with Sam? Or maybe Sam's whole relationship with is just a big joke (on us the fans, and the shippers in particular)! Hahaha! Just had to throw that one out there.

Wow, that's even more impressive stretching than I came up with! I did actually scribble notes while watching about musical cues and their potential meanings, but decided not to put them in the write-up as they really were getting rather tenuous and tangential. But the theme I noticed was the one from Abyss, that plays while Jack is hallucinating Shayla in his cell - here it replays while Daniel is talking to Anna and she's talking about how she doesn't remember and hasn't ever been outside, which kind of links to themes of loss of identity and being kept prisoner that do fit with when that theme was first used in Abyss. But yeah, tangential

[Akamaimom]

I just have to say that this episode rubs me the wrong way. It was a little "Silence of the Lambs" for me--which doesn't seem Stargatey at all. I love that AT directed it, and I did like some of the angles and stuff, but it didn't seem very in keeping with the rest of the series. Not that they all have to look alike, but each show has its own look and feel, and this one was a little off of that.

I'd be interested to hear from some die-hard Sanctuary fans, and see how it stacks up to those episodes--because that's what it feels like to me. I've only seen a few, but they reminded me of this episode.

I'll opine more later. Four kids doing homework all at once is a bit of a muddle without a referree.

Toodles!

[sg-1fanintn]

Well...it's about time to remind everyone that Shipmas is less than two weeks away! Here are the invitation, sig and avatar. Please feel free to use the sig and avatar between now and our event, to promote it around the forum. And please thank starlover for creating this great art for us.

And if you want to download and email the invitation to shippers you know who don't hang out at Gateworld as much as they used to...please do. I even sent the one for Shipsgiving to some shippers in a Facebook message, in order to reach them!

I know we'll have a wonderful party, as always!

The invitation:

The sig:

The avatar:

[hedwig]

I just have to say that this episode rubs me the wrong way. It was a little "Silence of the Lambs" for me--which doesn't seem Stargatey at all. I love that AT directed it, and I did like some of the angles and stuff, but it didn't seem very in keeping with the rest of the series. Not that they all have to look alike, but each show has its own look and feel, and this one was a little off of that.

I'd be interested to hear from some die-hard Sanctuary fans, and see how it stacks up to those episodes--because that's what it feels like to me. I've only seen a few, but they reminded me of this episode.

I'll opine more later. Four kids doing homework all at once is a bit of a muddle without a referree.

Toodles!

I agree that this doesn't feel very Stargatey, other than the SG1 characters being in it, and the goa'uld stuff. It could have been any other show. Though I don't think I agree about a comparison to Sanctuary. I don't think there is any (unless one considers Anna to be an "abnormal" in some way). Some Sanctuary episodes seem rather silly, but overall I think they have quite good stories, esp. the last few weeks. Michael Shanks wrote Resurrection, and I really don't understand what kind of statement he was trying to make, if any. The scientist guy who "created" Anna was just creepy and rather ridiculous (IMO). Maybe he's the "Silence of the Lambs" character?

[hlndncr]

I agree that this doesn't feel very Stargatey, other than the SG1 characters being in it, and the goa'uld stuff. It could have been any other show. Though I don't think I agree about a comparison to Sanctuary. I don't think there is any (unless one considers Anna to be an "abnormal" in some way). Some Sanctuary episodes seem rather silly, but overall I think they have quite good stories, esp. the last few weeks. Michael Shanks wrote Resurrection, and I really don't understand what kind of statement he was trying to make, if any. The scientist guy who "created" Anna was just creepy and rather ridiculous (IMO). Maybe he's the "Silence of the Lambs" character?

I don't think Aka was talking so much about the story but the direction (look and feel), but I probably shouldn't be putting words in her mouth. (But as long as she is trying to keep her kids from putting pencils, papers, siblings feet, etc. in each others' mouths, why not?!)

I agree with the bold. CJ is an excellent writer and generally I consider his stories and scripts a step up from the usual Jaffa episodes. But from this example I would say MS should stick to acting (and he did alright directing DJ).

I will say that Daniel hasn't had much of a storyline in quite some time. He has to go all the way back to the (far too short lived IMO)harcisis arc to make some kind of connection here. Unless you count his death/ascession and return, which mostly went on without him (which was the point at the time), we really haven't seen much depth to him or any real exploration of his character since season 3.

[Akamaimom]

I don't think Aka was talking so much about the story but the direction (look and feel), but I probably shouldn't be putting words in her mouth. (But as long as she is trying to keep her kids from putting pencils, papers, siblings feet, etc. in each others' mouths, why not?!)

I agree with the bold. CJ is an excellent writer and generally I consider his stories and scripts a step up from the usual Jaffa episodes. But from this example I would say MS should stick to acting (and he did alright directing DJ).

I will say that Daniel hasn't had much of a storyline in quite some time. He has to go all the way back to the (far too short lived IMO)harcisis arc to make some kind of connection here. Unless you count his death/ascession and return, which mostly went on without him (which was the point at the time), we really haven't seen much depth to him or any real exploration of his character since season 3.

LOL!

And yes, I was talking about the look of it, and not the plot/storyline.

[Nefer]

As we rapidly approach the shippy abyss of seasons 9 and 10 I think it is good to practice stretching now, as we wouldn't want to get hurt with the grand contortions we will be forced to do later.

Are we really going to plough through the whole of 9&10 ? I mean, most of the time there is absolutely nothing! I'm not so sure I'm looking forward to that. On the other hand maybe (and that's a big maybe) you'll be able to point something out to me that I haven't noticed at all. Good luck with that.

As for Resurrection, I think the comparison with Sanctuary is justified. However, what I watched of Sanctuary seemed more or less like an x-files rip-off. No offence, not saying it's bad, but not exactly original either. I see both Resurrection and Nightwalkers as an x-files hommage. But while Nightwalkers was interesting and fit into the Goa'Uld story arch (and was so obviously meant to be a reference) I find Resurrection just weird. And it's a shame that this is AT's only directing on the show.

[Kate1013]

I do watch Sanctuary, and understand what some are saying in the look and feel of the episode, which is really interesting considering I'm pretty sure that AT has only directed one ep of Sanctuary so far. But the show is her 'baby' so I guess in actuality its not all that surprising.

I also agree with the comparison to Nightwalkers - to the fact that I had to double check which season we were discussing. The throwaway comment about Jack's absence was very similar if I recall correctly?

[hedwig]

I do watch Sanctuary, and understand what some are saying in the look and feel of the episode, which is really interesting considering I'm pretty sure that AT has only directed one ep of Sanctuary so far. But the show is her 'baby' so I guess in actuality its not all that surprising.

More like 2 or 3. I think it's been one per season so far.

re Amanda directing Resurrection, she actually had to make it a contract breaker if the producers didn't allow her to direct an episode.

I also don't see Sanctuary as being a rip off of x-files, since x-files is just one of a whole range of shows dealing with a similar subject, and x-files itself is just a rip off of every other show of its kind that went before it. So if Sanctuary is considered a rip off of anything, it would be the whole category that these shows fall into, and not just one show. Plus, it has enough original ideas in it to make it way more interesting for me than x-files (even though I watched all seasons of x-files).

Back to "Resurrection", it is interesting to see how AT, CJ and MS were used in it, and how AT, CJ and CN were used in "Nightwalkers". I thought they did an excellent job of acting together, even though I thought the trio in "Nightwalkers" was better.

[Kate1013]

More like 2 or 3. I think it's been one per season so far.

Yeah I forgot to add in the fact that I don't tend to pay attention to the behind the scenes things as often as I should! But in my defence I was just reading the GW interview the other day featuring MW and AT and it only mentions one ep. Actually it compares it to her directing experience on Resurrection, which was the main reason I butted in with this (This is why I should never sneak a peek at this site when I'm meant to be working! lol)

[Petra]

I don't have much to say about Resurrection. As I mentioned in my Nightwalkers review, I simply don't like it. It's so boring that I actually managed to sit through it only twice (and the second time was for a rewatch on this forum), it's full of cliches, it doesn't feel like Stargate at all, the guest characters are one-dimensional and badly acted (the girl playing Anna is one of the worst actresses I've ever seen on tv), there's no Jack*, no team*, Teal'c is sidelined and dr Lee used as a comic relief. What's more Barret is laughable in his interrigation scenes and I can't figure out his purpose in this ep at all, as all he does is following SG-1 around asking about their progress and losing his temper with Kefler. Ugh. Frankly, it's one of my least favourite episodes of the series.

No Jack = no shippiness. Barret unsuccessfully asking Sam out is kinda funny though.

* Given that MS claimed in his interviews he left after season 5 partly due to lack of team and lesser focus on Jack/Daniel dynamic I found it interesting that in the one episode he himself wrote there was no team and no J/D dynamic at all.

[Nefer]

Ok, completely digressing into Sanctuary/x-files discussion, so there's spoiler tags

Spoiler:

So if Sanctuary is considered a rip off of anything, it would be the whole category that these shows fall into, and not just one show. Plus, it has enough original ideas in it to make it way more interesting for me than x-files (even though I watched all seasons of x-files).

Yeah ok I agree, there's been a whole genre of x-file-ish shows before Sanctuary aired. Funny though, I kinda had the opposite impression you have. I didn't really see any new ideas in it, even though I haven't watched a lot of these shows, just the odd episode or so (but I just got the x-files complete set and WILL watch it. Soon-ish.)

and x-files itself is just a rip off of every other show of its kind that went before it.

TBH, I can't really think of a similar show that went before it, except maybe Twilight Zone and Outer Limits. And they still have a different vibe due to the the one episode/one story set-up, IMO. But then again, I'm not even old enough to have seen x-files when it was on the air (at least for the first half). Maybe I just missed a lot .

Just out of curiosity, is there one person here (maybe a lurker ) who really enjoys Resurrection? Would be interesting to hear their opinion.