Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[EvenstarSRV]

Heroes was one of the first Stagate episodes I ever saw (I think I only WoO and Solitudes before it), so my initial impression of it was probably quite different from viewers who'd be following the show and characters for so many years. This was actually a good episode to enter the series on, since the interviews provided nice backstory on the characters and their situation to a newbie like me.

Regarding the Jack vs Janet deception, I thought it worked very well and actually left me more gutted, even though I hardly knew the two characters, since I knew Jack would be safe because he was a regular. In hindsight I don't think that they had to kill Janet, but I thought her heroic actions and death were done quite well, as well as the aftermath we saw on the characters (at least for this episode).

Regarding Sam and Jack, like with my take on most of their actions, I see Sam running to Jack and their hug later as mostly driven by their strong friendship with the added accent of ship. If it had been Teal'c who'd been shot I think Sam would have run to him and gone to see him in the same way, it's just that her emotions would be a slightly different place. I'd like to think that Sam would act as quickly and feel as deeply if any of her friends were that badly injured, not just because it was Jack.

Regarding Cassie, while I agree her comment about her being a tough kid wasn't worded the best (though to be fair, who is at their best in a situation like that), I still don't see it as Sam entirely brushing her off because we see her later saying she had to go pick her up when she's trying to write Janet's eulogy. I don't think its quite fair to take one comment in an emotional situation like that as a representation of Sam's compassion towards Cassie. Since by the same standard you could say that Daniel and Teal'c weren't compassionate towards Jack because they never came to visit him. I'm sure they did, but with the time constraints of the episode we just never got to see it.

[Nefer]

Oh good, I thought I was gonna be the only one who doesn't worship 'Heroes'. I completely agree with the clip-show-vibe argument for the first part. I see it's supposed to be funny, but in fact it isn't. Aside from the occasional snicker that escaped me most of the jokes rather made me squirm a little. The second part has some nice scenes which were all already mentioned:

1. the battle scene looks cool and rather unusual for Stargate IMO
2. the hug
3. I always thought AT's crying looked very realistic, same as in PL and in that scene on the Replicator ship with Fifth (forget the episode). For some reason her crying really touches me.
4. I actually support the writers in their decision to kill Janet, because at this point it was still rather new for this particular show to lose important characters (which is of course ridiculous from a realistic point of view). I also liked that they chose 'the Doctor' because the victim was someone who was even further removed from the action of the field, whose job it was to do healing and not fighting/killing. Somehow that made her death more tragic to me.

But that's about it. The episode itself seems like a collection of convenient coincidences and set-ups, although I can't say that I've felt mistreated as a shipper. Also there were a lot of clichés in the execution of the story, for example the soldier who is put into mortal danger is of course the one with the pregnant wife at home. Not that this is unrealistic, but in the script, it's just too convenient. It's like TV-pairings ending up in a fabulous marriage and twins at the end of the show. It happens, but you know ... And we all know what Jack thinks about clichés

So all in all and ok episode for me (disregarding the long term ramifications of course), but not in my top ten. Solid middle I'd say.

[Aveo_amacus]

I never found the Jack/Janet deception a problem, and whilst I would have preferred not to loose Janet, I found her death - and the episode - very powerful
Although I agree with others the Cass should have been at the memorial, I don't find the "she's a tough kid" brush off to really be a brush off in that sense. More Sam trying to get through everything - I'm sure the parallels between her loss as a teen and Cassie's loss of her second mother aren't lost on her. You can see all the way through the scene that Sam's desperately trying to hold it together and I think it's her way of trying to do that. People can often appear calus like that when they're grieving and trying to not let it show. People have different coping mechanisms, and I imagine whilst especially in uniform Sam's trying really hard to hold it together and Jack reminding her of what Cassie's lost wasn't helping her resolve.

[hlndncr]

I agree that Sam isn't really insensitive to Cassie and her needs. It just seems to me it was written that way. For me, it was like the writers knew they had to acknowledge the Cassie issue, but didn't have the desire or the time to actually address it properly. It was the writters who brushed Cassie off. Instead of having Sam respond to Jack's question of "How's Cassie?" by saying "She's a strong kid. She survives." They could have had her say something like, "Not well. I'm not sure how she'll get through this ... how any of us will." That would have fit within the scene, set the issue aside for the time, and been much more honest to the characters, IMHO.

[hlndncr]

Sorry for the double post.

I was just wondering about the schedule.

We still have four more episodes to finish up season 7. It would be nice to get through them before the holidays (and I know everyone is already very busy on that front), and then we could discuss how/when we would like to do season 8 after the new year.

So I would propose the following:

Dec. 6: Resurrection - Josiane
Dec. 9: Inaguration - Cags
Dec. 13: Lost City 1 - Lucycat
Dec. 14: Lost City 2 - Cags

I'm willing to play back up on the reviews if needed.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

[josiane]

Sorry for the double post.

I was just wondering about the schedule.

We still have four more episodes to finish up season 7. It would be nice to get through them before the holidays (and I know everyone is already very busy on that front), and then we could discuss how/when we would like to do season 8 after the new year.

So I would propose the following:

Dec. 6: Resurrection - Josiane
Dec. 9: Inaguration - Cags
Dec. 13: Lost City 1 - Lucycat
Dec. 14: Lost City 2 - Cags

I'm willing to play back up on the reviews if needed.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

I PMed Cags yesterday to ask her whether she was up for doing the episodes she's down for or whether she'd prefer to pass them over, but haven't heard back yet. In any case I will post Resurrection on Monday, and if you're OK to be on standby for Inauguration then I agree, let's go with that schedule And a hiatus over Christmas before starting season 8 sounds sensible too.

Cags usually asks for people to volunteer to do write-ups for the next season around about this point in a season - I'm happy to collate that for her this time around if that would be helpful? If so, can people PM me if they want to do some, how many, and any preferences?

Sorry for being quiet on the discussions the last couple of weeks everyone - things have been rather busy

[hlndncr]

I PMed Cags yesterday to ask her whether she was up for doing the episodes she's down for or whether she'd prefer to pass them over, but haven't heard back yet. In any case I will post Resurrection on Monday, and if you're OK to be on standby for Inauguration then I agree, let's go with that schedule And a hiatus over Christmas before starting season 8 sounds sensible too.

Cags usually asks for people to volunteer to do write-ups for the next season around about this point in a season - I'm happy to collate that for her this time around if that would be helpful? If so, can people PM me if they want to do some, how many, and any preferences?

Sorry for being quiet on the discussions the last couple of weeks everyone - things have been rather busy

I'm happy to be on standby for Inauguration.

And I just want to encourage everyone who's joined in our discussions (new or more experienced) to volunteer to do a season 8 review. It's not hard (ask Aka; she did her first reviews this season and they were great), and your contribution is always really appreciated.

[Akamaimom]

I'm happy to be on standby for Inauguration.

And I just want to encourage everyone who's joined in our discussions (new or more experienced) to volunteer to do a season 8 review. It's not hard (ask Aka; she did her first reviews this season and they were great), and your contribution is always really appreciated.

Aw shucks. Didja mention that they were ALL late?

But it's been fun--so participate, people!

[EvenstarSRV]

I'm happy to be on standby for Inauguration.

And I just want to encourage everyone who's joined in our discussions (new or more experienced) to volunteer to do a season 8 review. It's not hard (ask Aka; she did her first reviews this season and they were great), and your contribution is always really appreciated.

I've been hesitant to volunteer for a review since, as a non-shipper, I'm not sure I'd do justice to the Sam/Jack moments that most here look for in a given episode. But if you still need people I'd be willing to do one or two for S8, maybe the ones considered to have the least amount of ship? (Just not Prometheus Unbound please, that's one of the few Stargate eps I absolutely refuse to watch.)

[hedwig]

I've been hesitant to volunteer for a review since, as a non-shipper, I'm not sure I'd do justice to the Sam/Jack moments that most here look for in a given episode. But if you still need people I'd be willing to do one or two for S8, maybe the ones considered to have the least amount of ship? (Just not Prometheus Unbound please, that's one of the few Stargate eps I absolutely refuse to watch.)

Prometheus Unbound ought to be about the safest one to review, since there's absolutely no s/j ship in it. Jack's only in it briefly, and Sam isn't even in it.

[hlndncr]

Aw shucks. Didja mention that they were ALL late?

But it's been fun--so participate, people!

No later than any of the rest of us.

I've been hesitant to volunteer for a review since, as a non-shipper, I'm not sure I'd do justice to the Sam/Jack moments that most here look for in a given episode. But if you still need people I'd be willing to do one or two for S8, maybe the ones considered to have the least amount of ship? (Just not Prometheus Unbound please, that's one of the few Stargate eps I absolutely refuse to watch.)

There are definitely some less than shippy episodes in Season 8. And besides, we all see different things as shippy; so if you don't write about it someone else certainly will. I think you should do it. Just send Josi a PM.

(And since Vala is one of my least favorite characters I'd definitely put PU (haha - "pee ewe") toward the bottom of my list too.)

[Rachel500]

So bit of a catch-up for me:

Death Knell

Generally

It's a good solid episode which in terms of the arc is fairly important: the SGC loses its allies and returns to its original status - humans alone trying to find a way.

If I have complaints most of them are around the investigation Tok'ra/Jaffa argy-bargy which is all a bit boring and only enlivened by Jacob and Selmak's realisation that they are no longer trusted within the Tok'ra hierarchy (which I think is a fascinating thing and really should have been explored more outside of this episode).

Sam and Jack

Lots of lovely Sam/Jack stuff. From the moment the SGC gets the news - the rest of SG1 is just *there*. I love the moment on the planet where Reynolds says unthinkingly 'who could survive this' and the look on Jack's face, the way Reynolds responds to it. Because at this point, really only their faith in Sam and that she would find a way to make it is what is keeping SG1 from believing she's dead.

I love the moment they find Jacob and the shared love for Sam; the way he trusts them to continue looking for Sam and gives them what they need.

I love that Jack and Teal'c continue to search, and arrive in the nick of time. I love the complete synchronicity between Sam and Jack in that moment when Jack is firing on the super-soldier. I love that Sam is just so worn from being the prey in the hunt (excellent acting by AT). I love the pause before Jack allows himself to sit and comfort her; that she accepts it. That Teal'c guards them. It's a wonderful moment of love whether you think of it just as a platonic-teammate-friend caring (which is what I think Jack hopes Sam will take it for) or with added shippy angsty undertone (because he's just completely relieved that the woman he loves is still alive and torn because she evidently needs comforting and he needs to be the one to comfort her).

[josiane]

Just heard from Cags, so quick update... hlndncr, can you do Inauguration and then would someone like to volunteer for Lost City 2? I'll do it if no-one else wants to but I have done quite a few this season so will give everyone else first dibs

[Rachel500]

Heroes

Generally

It's been interesting to read everyone's thoughts. I neither love nor hate Heroes. I'm not sure it makes it into my top ten faves but it's nowhere near my top ten would-like-to-burn-if-only-that-didn't-ruin-my-complete-collection-control-freakishness.

I think it's one of those ones where it was trying to do too much (honour the military, provide a commentary on press vs official secrecy on one level, civilian oversight vs military on the other, suggest a mystery over who died, create an epic battle, make death real again in Stargate land following Daniel's return) and only truly succeeds in the first of those and the battle scenario, and partially in the others.

I'm with those that loved the peek into SG13 and Dave Dixon (loved Adam Baldwin). It was great to see the wider SGC.

I actually really like Bregman and the social commentary of the importance of showing/capturing the truth of warfare, of people's actions in warfare. The discussion between him and Daniel over the tape is the one that matters here and it's a good one.

I'm with Shannon in that it's hard in rewatching to place Woolsey back into the box of "evil investigator associated with Kinsey" that is the sum of the role he plays here. And the fact that he is only shown as that in Heroes weakens the thread of commentary on civilian oversight vs military secrecy. Obviously Woolsey's first redemption comes in The Lost City where he makes the case for oversight and why he believes in it to Hammond much more effectively than is shown here.

Obviously in original viewing, a lot of the investigation was to continue the tease of who died and that for me doesn't work at all. I remember the lead-up in the sci-fi press in the UK was that there was going to be a surprise death, rumours of RDA leaving, etc. So, I wasn't surprised at the tease but never truly thought Jack would die. And ultimately I think the tease of who is something they should have lost because it obstructs the story and the reaction to Janet's death, IMO.

While I hate that Janet died, I understand my reaction (and many others) was actually the point of killing her off. And it was a big shock back when it first happened because usually it was a red-shirt; she was loved and therefore it engages the audience's emotions and the characters' for that matter. Did it make death real again for the audience? I'm not sure it did in terms of the four regulars (after all Daniel would go on to die again and return again) but it did create some angst of 'which recurring will they kill next.'

A brief word on Cassie: the producers completely fell down on the job because an episode which deals with the death of Janet should have had a scene with her daughter.

Sam and Jack

There are three key moments for me: Sam's interview where she's asked about Jack and babbles, revealing her respect and admiration of him as a man and an officer; her understanding of him; her love for him in denying too much.

The way she reacts when he gets hit because it's always the way she's reacted when he gets hit (from the Nox onwards). She never thinks about her own safety which she should do; she always goes to him.

And the hug. I love this scene because Sam is clearly just so torn up. She's filled with relief that it wasn't him; guilt that she's relieved it was Janet and not him; grief over Janet; and needs to reassure herself that he's really OK because she cares about him more than she should but she's trying desperately to reveal some of it and not all of it, and she's just so worn by it all...

And while I know Sam's 'she's strong' is fairly dismissive of Cassie in this discussion, I think actually I'm OK with that in context because at that point, Sam is trying to tell Jack what she came to tell him, she's trying to stay focused on what she's there to do and talking about Cassie isn't what she wants to talk about. Is that selfish? A little but it's normal and human and right at that moment Sam needs to do something for herself. I'm fairly sure outside of this scene, Sam is caring for Cassie and being there for her, and trying to be strong for her and putting Cassie first. But not in this scene; this scene is about Sam being the one in need of comfort.

Jack gets that, and needs comfort himself, because he allows himself not only to offer the hug but to participate in it fully; allowing himself to fully embrace her and not simply to put an arm around her without his hand touching her.

It's a great hug.

[Rachel500]

Just heard from Cags, so quick update... hlndncr, can you do Inauguration and then would someone like to volunteer for Lost City 2? I'll do it if no-one else wants to but I have done quite a few this season so will give everyone else first dibs

I can do Lost City Pt 2.