Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Akamaimom]

So, now I've been thinking more about this, and when Sam was hallucinating on the Prometheus, she imagined the worst parts of everyone to interact with. The MOST annoying and far-out Daniel, the MOST stoic and doomsday Teal'c. She didn't bring up the best parts of anyone except her father--whose behavior was entirely MORE gentle and sweet than he's ever been on the show. She only imagined extremes. So, how was Jack's character his extreme? Because he seemed more normal than the other characters--just more honest than he normally is.

Sadly, that honesty is Sam's twisted view of what he would be thinking, but I just wanted to put that out there.

[Nefer]

hedwig and akamaimon, I think we're in complete agreement here *high five*!

Although I belong to the camp of shippers who think that a real talk with a resolution (or even something like Sam imagined in Grace between them) would never happen. Maybe not even before they get together post-Threads. Which is why Sam had to let her actions speak!

Had they at least talked about it (even if briefly), they then could have agreed to set it aside until a future date and then revisit it.

> unlikely IMO, If they ever made it that far, I don't think there would be any going back to status quo afterwards.

And have a happy Thanksgiving, all you guys across the pond! Sadly, no holiday for me :sad:

[Akamaimom]

hedwig and akamaimon, I think we're in complete agreement here *high five*!

Although I belong to the camp of shippers who think that a real talk with a resolution (or even something like Sam imagined in Grace between them) would never happen. Maybe not even before they get together post-Threads. Which is why Sam had to let her actions speak!


> unlikely IMO, If they ever made it that far, I don't think there would be any going back to status quo afterwards.

And have a happy Thanksgiving, all you guys across the pond! Sadly, no holiday for me

**returns high five**

I don't think that they would have talked it out, either. I think that once either or both of them had made the decision to move, they'd just make the move. They're both very action oriented people.

[josiane]

Just running in quickly to say sorry there's no Heroes part one review up yet. I'm going to do it on behalf of Cags but it'll be tomorrow now -crazy week Hoping lots of you are in the States and too busy enjoying Thanksgiving to mind!

[Akamaimom]

Just running in quickly to say sorry there's no Heroes part one review up yet. I'm going to do it on behalf of Cags but it'll be tomorrow now -crazy week Hoping lots of you are in the States and too busy enjoying Thanksgiving to mind!

Yes! Take your time, because I was supposed to do Heroes Part 2--and this weekend it might be next to impossible to get done.

[josiane]

Yes! Take your time, because I was supposed to do Heroes Part 2--and this weekend it might be next to impossible to get done.

Cool, well I'll get it done this weekend, and then shall we push the rewatch schedule back again?

[hlndncr]

Cool, well I'll get it done this weekend, and then shall we push the rewatch schedule back again?

Yes, push back. Then maybe I can get caught up!

[hlndncr]

I’ve really enjoyed the reviews and discussion on Chimera and Death Knell and I would like to make some comments of my own on these episodes and what’s been said, but I don’t want to do a massive multiquote or compose an essay. So if you’ll bear with me I’ll just give you a little stream of consciousness reaction to what I’ve watched and read. Hopefully my rambling won’t be too confusing or redundant.

The first thing I would like to comment on is how annoyed I am at the reactions of TPTB about the whole Pete issue. I was listening to the commentary (by the writer and director of the episode) and they acknowledged the whole stalker issue but they acted like it was a funny joke. That suggest to me just how out of touch they were about what constitutes good character growth for Sam. I’ve never been of the mind that a woman’s perspective was sorely needed in the writers’ room, but in this case I think it was. I really don’t think that they understood how deeply offensive aspects of this episode are to women in general and to those of us who admire Sam’s character and feel that it damaged the integrity her character.

I was further put out by the comparison to the relationship between Daniel and Sarah. In the episode, Sam has a line about “male fantasies” that applies here. The geeky and socially awkward Daniel has this brilliant gorgeous girlfriend that he acknowledges he did not deserve. While the beautiful and talented Sam was purposefully given a boyfriend who TPTB described as “not your typical square-jawed hero.” (Although BB was initially offered the role and turned it down, which tells me this may have been something they came up with after the fact to try and sell it.) Name me anytime anyone would ever consider giving the male lead (geeky Daniel or square-jawed Jack) anything less than a stunningly fabulous girlfriend as an effort to develop their character?

They also believed that David DeLuise and AT had great chemistry. Aside from the poor writing and character choices, I really can’t see it. Maybe it’s because I have been watching years of AT and RDA who can sizzle up a screen with a single look across the briefing table and that has jaded me. But as much as DD and AT may have gotten along personally, any romantic chemistry just didn’t come through on screen for me. In fact, it always looked to me just like someone dating her brother’s friend (as a favor) and it was quite uncomfortable to watch.

I enjoyed the Daniel and Sarah part of the storyline. It was a nice sequel to The Curse, which was an episode I enjoyed. I do think it was largely overshadowed by the Sam/Pete story and I think that was a shame. Really this episode is lacking a lot in the excitement department. There’s a lot of sitting around and talking. Thank heavens they put an explosion at the end (even if it didn’t take out Pete ).

I think Daniel’s words (Sarah was in love with me and I guess I had feelings for her too) and his actions (putting his work first then and now) show that he never had that deep down connection and absolute love for Sarah that he did for Sha’re. And while I think finally being able to save someone he cares about allows him to put to rest some of his demons and begin healing I can’t see him and Sarah ultimately being together. Although, I think I would have liked a mention of her again sometime.

I think we see from the very beginning Pete’s selfishness and lack of respect for Sam’s work. In the café scene he tries to convince her to call in sick and spend the day with him because he believes her work isn’t important and the world can wait for more deep space telemetry. And what I hear is your life isn’t as important as my needs and desires and I’m here now so pay attention to me. His reaction to her work is really demeaning and condescending while constantly reminding her that he’s a cop and it’s an important (even defining) part of who he is; whereas, she merely stares into a telescope. Even though it is just a cover I would expect someone I’m dating to show me and my work more respect, even if it does seem boring or less important than some other professions. It’s not that her work really is important (protecting the planet), but that it obviously means a lot to her and that should be all that matters.

He further shows his immaturity (and undesirability) when he shows his disdain for the things she likes such as “Singing in the Rain.” Now I admit that I don’t know many men who like Gene Kelly movies, but he does nothing to hide his opinion or at least show that he appreciates her attempt to share something she likes with him. Instead it’s I like cop movies and that’s that. He tries to play it off as a joke, but I just think his attempts at humor mask, but don’t entirely negate, his personality flaws.

I never really got the elevator scene. I’m not sure why Jack equates Sam’s humming with a relationship. But AT and RDA do play it really well. I feel like they are trying to read what the other is not saying and trying to react the way they think the other is expecting or wants them to react. But I also feel a giant backtracking in their relationship. One thing that had characterized Season 7 for me was their closeness and how in sync they seem to be. And at Evolution there seemed to be a comfort and contentment in their relationship. Yes, there was longing, but I didn’t feel a desperation from them to change the status quo. But I guess that’s what you get when you try to make major life decisions as a result of a massive concussion.

I can possibly see some of Sam’s initial attraction to Pete (as much as it pains me to say it). He has a goofy sense of humor, which is something we know Sam likes. And she may have liked that it gave her a connection to her brother that was lacking, a part of her life that she could share with him. Pete also appears fun and uncomplicated on the surface, and much more open than I think Jack would ever be even after they are together. That may have seemed refreshing and maybe even given her the illusion that she was moving forward and embracing a more complete relationship.

As to their big romantic date, I just don’t get it. I don’t find crashing someone’s anniversary party romantic. And Sam seems rather uncomfortable with the whole thing too, stating that she’s concerned about being noticed. It also seems like a lot of pressure for an early date, and talking about staying together no matter what even strikes me as somewhat manipulative.

I’m not even going to mention how icky I find the whole kissing scene. And incidentally I find the whole thing an excellent advertisement for abstinence before marriage; you don’t have to worry about waking up the next morning to . It doesn’t surprise me in the least that he’s divorced. He talks about his ex-wife not being able to handle his job because he didn’t have a choice about who he was. So his wife was supposed to accept him and his job, but even early on we see that Pete isn’t inclined to give Sam the same respect. His temper tantrum is so immature, and I hate the way Sam reacts to it. She tries to placate him instead of kicking him to the curb. I guess I can see some reluctance to end a relationship after you’ve just made the monumental mistake of sleeping with someone. But Pete just keeps up the pressure and talks about them having a future and sharing a life, demonstrating to me that he’s several steps ahead of Sam. And I don’t get how someone who is supposedly this experienced and a dedicated cop can’t understand the concept of confidentiality.

TBC

[hlndncr]

OK, see I told you I was going to be rambling.

So to continue my rantings . . .

The only thing I have to say about the background check is that I give DD credit for looking guilty as he asks for it. It suggests to me that maybe Pete did know he was probably stepping over the line, but of course he still crossed it.

I think Sam’s reaction to Daniel’s comments about his dreams of Sarah and their relationship is interesting. He talks about how much more supportive Sarah is of him and his work in the dreams than in real life and Sam calls it a male fantasy. I think she’s projecting here. After her experience with Pete (and maybe even Jonas as well) she seems to have a complete lack of understanding of what constitutes a healthy relationship where the person you’re with wants you to succeed and cares about the things that are important to you. I think that is the kind of relationship she could (and in my world does) one day have with Jack. But she sees how Daniel destroyed his relationship with Sarah because of his obsession with his work and she concludes that the two must inevitably come into conflict.

As for Jack, I’m not sure he really knows how to react to Sam’s new life. He tries to play it casual and act as just the friend. Telling her he’s happy for her. Later he brings up Pete and tries to be sympathetic. It’s like passing a car accident. He doesn’t really want to know, but he can’t look away. Maybe it’s that desire to do what he thinks will make her happy that leads him to hold off on laying into Pete after messing up their operation, and probably helping her get clearance to tell Pete something of the Strargate program. But I find the whole thing completely unrealistic and out of character. Although, I don’t think Pete would have stuck around if he hadn’t been told (or he would have done something else stupid and caused more problems; so maybe I can justify it as Jack just trying to head off further disaster).

Of all Sam’s “boyfriends” this is definitely the one that should have died. And I can see Sam keeping him around because she feels guilty and/or doesn’t like to admit failure. For this reason I don’t believe Sam ever loved Pete. And my own experiences tell me that it is absolutely possible to get engaged to someone you do not love. And it is easy to get trapped by your choices. I think Sam is someone that tries too hard to meet expectations and that’s how the whole relationship gets away from her right at the beginning and then she really does just follow Pete’s lead after that.

I think it shows just how well Jack knows her and how sensitive he is to her feelings and their positions that he always allowed her to lead in their relationship. Even when he demonstrated his openness at the end of Threads I think he still ultimately left it up to Sam. Whereas I think Pete really was always dragging her to places she really didn’t want the relationship to go. From beginning to end I saw nothing but a lot of discomfort in her relationship with Pete, which was a further indication that she never opened herself up to him.

To me, she never acted like someone in love. She didn’t ever want to talk about him or be seen with him. Even when she was with him it always seemed more casual or even business like. It was almost like she considered her relationship with him a job she had to do. At the same time when she was around Jack we’ve seen her be flirty, touchy, and close in a way that obviously goes beyond friendship. Even when she was involved with Pete, she and Jack looked and acted more like a couple to me than she and Pete ever did.

I think it is clear that I agree with everyone who has said that the whole Pete storyline was poorly thought out and badly executed. I’m not opposed to the idea of Sam having a relationship with someone other than Jack. I think it could have been an interesting background storyline. But I think it was misplaced. I could have seen it sometime in Season 5 when Sam and Jack’s relationship had cooled and there was a definite distance between them. (And I wouldn’t have minded them keeping Joe Faxon around because it would have been deliciously tantalizing to see a relationship like that come together and then later fall apart given what we know from the alternate 2010 timeline.) But it didn’t fit in Season 7, which is demonstrated by the fact that Pete is never mentioned again until Season 8 where it seems there relationship isn’t going that well since Sam doesn’t want to talk about it and she’s not fooled by Fifth’s projection of domestic bliss. In some ways it really was an unnecessary one off story thrown into the middle of this season.

Especially since I agree with others who have said that Pete or any other relationship for Sam was not a necessary catalyst in ultimately bringing Jack and Sam together. In fact, in the end I believe it was really Jacob who did that (watch now as I smoothly transition into a discussion of Death Knell ) with his deathbed advice to actually follow her heart and be happy. I think Jacob’s line to Sam at the Alpha site really is the key. They never talk anymore. If Sam had really talked to her father about Pete, about her fears and desires, maybe he could have helped guide her to the answers sooner.

But really, even if she wanted too she never got the chance because he left her shortly after her experience running from the super soldier. Thus beginning a series of losses for Sam that leaves her vulnerable, emotionally confused, and reeling from pain and loneliness. Her dad is essentially MIA in a distant part of the galaxy, Janet soon dies, and then Jack sacrifices himself to save the world and she has to leave him behind in frozen limbo (all that was missing is Daniel “dying” again). All of this I think is what ultimately throws Sam into Pete’s waiting arms. I mean the one thing she has to say for him in Affinity is that he “stuck around.”

For my part, I consider Death Knell a Jack story (somewhat like Desperate Measures). Sam is off struggling for survival; both Pete and Jack are the furthest things from her mind. Jack is struggling with potentially losing the woman he loves and I think we see hints of that throughout the episode. When he finds her at the end I don’t attribute anything he does or doesn’t do as a reaction to her relationship with Pete. I think it is all about her. His relief at finding her and needing to hold her, and maybe a little concern that he needs her too much or that his feelings might be too obvious. I don’t see a soldier moment, if anything I see a call back to Metamorphosis. Teal’c is facing away (guarding a dead soldier FCOL) and giving them time and space to take the comfort from one another that he knows they both need. And I don’t think Sam would have cuddled up to anyone else (except maybe Daniel or Teal’c). And if it had been anyone else (except maybe Daniel) Jack wouldn’t have offered.

Whew. I'm glad I got all that off my chest.

[Aveo_amacus]

wow great reviews hlndncr!!

Totally agree with you that DK is really about Jack - I think that's one ep that really pulled off a Jack ep without him actually in every minute, I'd never thought of it that way but love your parallels to metamorphosis

As regarding Chimera, well caught on the coffee shop scene, it links really well later to when Pete's going on about how being a cop is who he is, but (as you say) he doesn't seem to think that the same could apply to Sam.
That's one thing that's always really bugged me, she's a major in the USAF how can he then turn around and think she doesn't know anything about duty/the job being who you are???
It just really shows up the poor quality of the excution of the story line which could have been interesting and provided good s/j angst - which we get from Jack - but instead we're sitting here going "what's going on? That guy is a loser/(substitute word of preference here)"

On a non-significant note there is a zoo in CS (Cheyanne Mountain Zoo). In my little world, I always thought that was somewhere SG1 took Cassie soon after rescuing her (given the pics in her room in Singularity) and that wasn't something Sam wanted to share with Pete

[Akamaimom]

Wow. Highland--tell us how you REALLY feel! Ha ha!

I agree with the vast majority of your ramblings, and have to admit that I hadn't thought of some of them before--like the juxtaposition of his ex wife not understanding his job, and then him not trying to understand Sam's.

Something to think about. . .

All I have to say is--my husband is a big manly man, and he LOVES Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire and Bing Crosby flicks. In fact, we're watching "White Christmas" tonight after we put up Christmas decorations. His idea.

[hlndncr]

Wow. Highland--tell us how you REALLY feel! Ha ha!

I agree with the vast majority of your ramblings, and have to admit that I hadn't thought of some of them before--like the juxtaposition of his ex wife not understanding his job, and then him not trying to understand Sam's.

Something to think about. . .

All I have to say is--my husband is a big manly man, and he LOVES Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire and Bing Crosby flicks. In fact, we're watching "White Christmas" tonight after we put up Christmas decorations. His idea.

Lucky Girl!

[Akamaimom]

Lucky Girl!

You'd think so, and then he turns on what I call his "Old Man Mix" on the iPod while we're driving long distances. Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, and Bing Crosby grate on my nerves after a while. I swear he's sixty (and he's not even 40 yet!)

[hlndncr]

You'd think so, and then he turns on what I call his "Old Man Mix" on the iPod while we're driving long distances. Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, and Bing Crosby grate on my nerves after a while. I swear he's sixty (and he's not even 40 yet!)

That's what I listen to in the car (and I'm not 40 yet either)! Sounds like your husband and I would get along on a road trip.

See where Pete would change the station on Sam, I think Jack would put up with it. He would tease her to death, but secretly, deep down, he would enjoy it.

[Akamaimom]

That's what I listen to in the car (and I'm not 40 yet either)! Sounds like your husband and I would get along on a road trip.

See where Pete would change the station on Sam, I think Jack would put up with it. He would tease her to death, but secretly, deep down, he would enjoy it.

I agree. As evidenced here: Random Singing

and forever!