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    "She's compartmentalized him"
    I think that's Sam's main problem. She seems not able or willing to give of herself entirely. Not Jonas, not Pete and even not Jack
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      *tiptoes in and writes quickly*

      I have a little something to add on the Fallout discussion.

      Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
      Sam and Jack

      They only actually share one scene - the briefing one at the beginning. There's a nice exchange between them when he says 'I assume this makes sense to you' and she replies 'Actually, no' but that's it. No other scene at all - not even one of concern waiting for news.

      There is, however, a lot of nice allusions back to ITLOD in the Jonas and Kianna relationship, namely when Kianna is revealed as the Goa'uld and when Kianna, the host, appears to speak, Sam sating that they know the Goa'uld try to trick them like that and not to believe it. Is this grist for the ITLOD Jolinar Camp who say it was Jolinar who said 'Please Jack!' or is the fact that Sam names the Goa'uld as playing that trick evidence that as Jolinar was Tok'ra that she did let Sam speak and thus providing evidence for the ITLOD Sam Camp who say it was Sam who said 'Please Jack!'

      Furthermore, Jonas won't leave Kianna behind so another nice allusion to D&C, not leaving someone you love behind.

      Other than that, I might put forward that seeing Jonas dating (even if the relationship comes to a halt with the revelation that she's a Goa'uld and I don't honestly believe that Kianna The Host and Jonas survive that), might reinforce Sam's decision to explore a personal relationship and tip her into accepting that blind date with a certain cop...
      Great pick up Rachel.
      I just wanted to had something.

      While the shippyness of the ep is close to zero, I think that alone makes it shippy. You can extrapolate that Sam is thinking about her experiences in Grace and, for that, would have to stay away from Jack a little. I believe, he would notice it and wouldn't understand what is wrong, because everything was just fine for them at the end of Evolution part II. So, all of this makes for the lack of shippyness in Fallout.

      I could go as for as say that the two lines they exchange
      "I assume this makes sense to you."
      "Actually, no."
      coud mean something else, but that would be s t r e t c h i n g.

      Then there's another thing that caused all that thinking in my head : the tittle.
      If you look up 'fallout' in the dictionnary, you have two definitions.
      1. radioactive particles carried into the atmosphere by a nuclear explosion and gradually falling to the ground over a wide area.

      2. the adverse results of a situation.
      While the first one applies to the episode itself and the situation Jonas founds himself in, could the second one apply to the relationship between Sam & Jack, as a result to what happened in Grace? I'll leave you to think about that.

      So, I didn't want to stop the review on Chimera going on, but I really wanted to point that out. Great review Nynaeve btw!

      *goes back into lurkdom*
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        Originally posted by Nynaeve506 View Post
        I want to take a second to first focus on Daniel. In general, he tends to get pushed to the back when we talk about this episode (because he's neither Jack nor Sam). Truthfully though, this story is about him - his time ascended, his relationship with Sarah - and it propels the entire story arc forward. In general, I don't find Daniel a very in-depth character. This is one of those rare times where we get something MORE from him. Interestingly enough, in the end, he chooses knowledge over Sarah...which is a flip flop from his desire to save Sha're. His decision demonstrates how detached he is (and I think gives weight to his statement in "Unending" about how he had only just gotten past the death of his wife).
        Nice review.

        It's interesting you bring this up because the Daniel arc here does get lost in shipper discussions but to be honest, I've always believed that in part the reason why it gets lost in those discussions is not just our natural tendency to focus on Sam/Jack but also because from an episode point of view, the arc just isn't strong enough - there's not enough focus on it. It's almost as though Sam's sub-plot with Pete has equal precedence in terms of time and focus rather than being a sub-plot.

        For me, one of the reasons I've never liked Chimera is because I genuinely don't think it's a good episode.

        I love the concept of Daniel being stalked by Osiris for his knowledge about the lost city via a Tok'ra device and his dreams, and this might have been a fascinating way of exploring "old" Daniel pre-Stargate versus "new". And the decision to let it play out to determine whether he does have that knowledge and knowing that they have to stop Osiris, with the resolution that in the end Daniel does get to save Sarah - something he didn't get to do with Sha're. But not enough is made of it, IMO.

        Moving on, however, to the point of our discussion - Sam/Jack.

        Which means I have to talk about Sam/Pete. Brace yourselves.

        <much snippage>
        I've always been of the opinion that there were better ways for Sam and Jack to find their way to each other than through the device of a third person forcing the issue in regards to their feelings, and certainly I have no love of the Sam/Pete/Jack storyline as it played out (namely because I don't think it was all that well thought out). However, as I don't have a handy time-travel device to change that...

        Pete: I too think the idea of Pete is actually a lot better than the execution. I think the problem is three-fold: casting, characterisation and plotting. David DeLuise is an attractive guy but he's not Alpha enough to play opposite Tapping who is simply stunning. As a result, Pete doesn't come across as a realistic rival to Jack - and while some of that may have been the point, I think it actually undermines the concept. The second point is in the characterisation. For me, Pete starts out OK. He's a bit dorky but he makes Sam laugh, he's obviously interested in her, and he's not afraid of letting her know it. But the morning after discussion when he gets annoyed at her being professionally unable to tell him about her work and storms out; the background check which violates her privacy; the following her...all of these beats reveal a deep insecurity and want to control that casts a pall over the rest; his romantic date becomes less of sweet gesture and more of a guy trying too hard and hoping for a reward at the end of the night. Again, if the characterisation had remained a cop who was just genuinely interested in Sam, who accepted her word and trusted her, it may have been more believable. And in the storyline if he had stumbled on the op not because of his own pruient interest because he was part of a group of cops checking out a suspicious call or something, it may have undone some of the damage. But Pete is Pete: an insecure man who can't believe how lucky he is to find someone like Sam, and who is desperately trying to keep her. At the end of the episode, it is totally unbelievable from what we know of Sam at this point, that she would be with someone like Pete.

        Sam: I too enjoy seeing Sam taking at least one of the lessons from Grace and embracing being her personal side and enjoying being a woman. But I think what Chimera shows is a continuation of the theme of Grace - that while Sam has confidence in herself as a soldier and a scientist, that she doesn't fully trust her instincts as a woman. She puts up with Pete's outburst the morning after their night before rather than kicking him to the curb; she blames herself and the secrecy for his behaviour rather than blaming him. This was a side of Sam we really hadn't seen since Jonas Hansen; we'd seen Sam flustered and flattered by male attention (Marty, Orlin, Joe and Narim) but not submissive. It's not the Sam we've become familiar with, and not one that I think many of us were comfortable with seeing. Yet, I've seen this with friends and its typical of many women; confident in their careers and work but personally have little confidence with men and therefore blame themselves for relationship issues which any objective outsider would place on the man.

        I think in terms of the story of their relationship itself, I do kind of buy that. I don't think Sam sets out with any intention of this being a serious relationship. I think the blind date is her way of getting back on the horse so to speak; she enjoys Pete's company; enjoys his attention and more revels in it. She likes him. But she's a little disconcerted by his extended stay and on the date, when they're dancing and talking about growing old with someone, there's a sad expression on Sam's face as though she's thinking of her situation with Jack and that she can't grow old with him. In part, I do think that's why she allows herself to take the relationship with Pete to the next level; there's the pressure of the big romantic date anyway but I think that sadness leads to a 'I like Pete, Pete likes me, maybe this could lead to something long term' that means she invites him to bed. I think Sam blames herself for Pete's injury and that's why she promises to tell him everything and is with him at the end of the episode (that and the full truth of his background check, etc hadn't been told to her at that point). Do I think Pete was told everything? No. I think he got the story of the Stargate, that there are aliens out there and Sam works at keeping the planet safe. Nothing more.

        Sam and Jack: As far as her relationship with Jack is concerned, I don't think Sam had any intention of telling Jack about Pete per se. It's Jack who presses the issue in the elevator and Sam is quick to assure him it's not that serious; and he presses her again before stating he's happy she's happy. They both acknowledge it's not comfortable. I do think Sam takes the elevator scene as confirmation of her suspicion expressed in her hallucinatory conversation that Jack just wants friendship from her; that maybe he's stopped caring for her as more than a friend. And maybe that too adds to her decision to get more serious with Pete.

        Jack: For his part, Jack plays the 'friend' role, he even questions her before the op about why she's down/how things are going. I think Jack knows she was seeing someone and that's why he asked in the elevator. I think he genuinely does want her to be happy but he's keeping track of it and hoping I think that it goes nowhere. I do think Jack had been expecting a Pete for some time. And I do think it hurts him that Sam is moving on even though he equally makes the decision not to fight for her. Do I think Jack was annoyed by the interruption to the op and doesn't say anything to Sam? Yep. Do I think he had a say in Pete being informed? To some degree although I think the final say was George.
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          Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
          Nice review.

          Spoiler:
          It's interesting you bring this up because the Daniel arc here does get lost in shipper discussions but to be honest, I've always believed that in part the reason why it gets lost in those discussions is not just our natural tendency to focus on Sam/Jack but also because from an episode point of view, the arc just isn't strong enough - there's not enough focus on it. It's almost as though Sam's sub-plot with Pete has equal precedence in terms of time and focus rather than being a sub-plot.

          For me, one of the reasons I've never liked Chimera is because I genuinely don't think it's a good episode.

          I love the concept of Daniel being stalked by Osiris for his knowledge about the lost city via a Tok'ra device and his dreams, and this might have been a fascinating way of exploring "old" Daniel pre-Stargate versus "new". And the decision to let it play out to determine whether he does have that knowledge and knowing that they have to stop Osiris, with the resolution that in the end Daniel does get to save Sarah - something he didn't get to do with Sha're. But not enough is made of it, IMO.



          I've always been of the opinion that there were better ways for Sam and Jack to find their way to each other than through the device of a third person forcing the issue in regards to their feelings, and certainly I have no love of the Sam/Pete/Jack storyline as it played out (namely because I don't think it was all that well thought out). However, as I don't have a handy time-travel device to change that...

          Pete: I too think the idea of Pete is actually a lot better than the execution. I think the problem is three-fold: casting, characterisation and plotting. David DeLuise is an attractive guy but he's not Alpha enough to play opposite Tapping who is simply stunning. As a result, Pete doesn't come across as a realistic rival to Jack - and while some of that may have been the point, I think it actually undermines the concept. The second point is in the characterisation. For me, Pete starts out OK. He's a bit dorky but he makes Sam laugh, he's obviously interested in her, and he's not afraid of letting her know it. But the morning after discussion when he gets annoyed at her being professionally unable to tell him about her work and storms out; the background check which violates her privacy; the following her...all of these beats reveal a deep insecurity and want to control that casts a pall over the rest; his romantic date becomes less of sweet gesture and more of a guy trying too hard and hoping for a reward at the end of the night. Again, if the characterisation had remained a cop who was just genuinely interested in Sam, who accepted her word and trusted her, it may have been more believable. And in the storyline if he had stumbled on the op not because of his own pruient interest because he was part of a group of cops checking out a suspicious call or something, it may have undone some of the damage. But Pete is Pete: an insecure man who can't believe how lucky he is to find someone like Sam, and who is desperately trying to keep her. At the end of the episode, it is totally unbelievable from what we know of Sam at this point, that she would be with someone like Pete.

          Sam: I too enjoy seeing Sam taking at least one of the lessons from Grace and embracing being her personal side and enjoying being a woman. But I think what Chimera shows is a continuation of the theme of Grace - that while Sam has confidence in herself as a soldier and a scientist, that she doesn't fully trust her instincts as a woman. She puts up with Pete's outburst the morning after their night before rather than kicking him to the curb; she blames herself and the secrecy for his behaviour rather than blaming him. This was a side of Sam we really hadn't seen since Jonas Hansen; we'd seen Sam flustered and flattered by male attention (Marty, Orlin, Joe and Narim) but not submissive. It's not the Sam we've become familiar with, and not one that I think many of us were comfortable with seeing. Yet, I've seen this with friends and its typical of many women; confident in their careers and work but personally have little confidence with men and therefore blame themselves for relationship issues which any objective outsider would place on the man.

          I think in terms of the story of their relationship itself, I do kind of buy that. I don't think Sam sets out with any intention of this being a serious relationship. I think the blind date is her way of getting back on the horse so to speak; she enjoys Pete's company; enjoys his attention and more revels in it. She likes him. But she's a little disconcerted by his extended stay and on the date, when they're dancing and talking about growing old with someone, there's a sad expression on Sam's face as though she's thinking of her situation with Jack and that she can't grow old with him. In part, I do think that's why she allows herself to take the relationship with Pete to the next level; there's the pressure of the big romantic date anyway but I think that sadness leads to a 'I like Pete, Pete likes me, maybe this could lead to something long term' that means she invites him to bed. I think Sam blames herself for Pete's injury and that's why she promises to tell him everything and is with him at the end of the episode (that and the full truth of his background check, etc hadn't been told to her at that point). Do I think Pete was told everything? No. I think he got the story of the Stargate, that there are aliens out there and Sam works at keeping the planet safe. Nothing more.

          Sam and Jack: As far as her relationship with Jack is concerned, I don't think Sam had any intention of telling Jack about Pete per se. It's Jack who presses the issue in the elevator and Sam is quick to assure him it's not that serious; and he presses her again before stating he's happy she's happy. They both acknowledge it's not comfortable. I do think Sam takes the elevator scene as confirmation of her suspicion expressed in her hallucinatory conversation that Jack just wants friendship from her; that maybe he's stopped caring for her as more than a friend. And maybe that too adds to her decision to get more serious with Pete.

          Jack: For his part, Jack plays the 'friend' role, he even questions her before the op about why she's down/how things are going. I think Jack knows she was seeing someone and that's why he asked in the elevator. I think he genuinely does want her to be happy but he's keeping track of it and hoping I think that it goes nowhere. I do think Jack had been expecting a Pete for some time. And I do think it hurts him that Sam is moving on even though he equally makes the decision not to fight for her. Do I think Jack was annoyed by the interruption to the op and doesn't say anything to Sam? Yep. Do I think he had a say in Pete being informed? To some degree although I think the final say was George
          .
          I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I would add that I think Pete should have been a one episode storyline and nothing more. It should never have gone further, and Sam should have gotten to enjoy her moment with him and sent him on his way. It would have been more believable for me.

          I also find your comment about Osiris "stalking" Daniel interesting, given the "stalking" Pete did. Both Sam and Daniel were "stalked" ... Daniel by someone who's host he cared about. And Sam by someone she came to care about (which should not have gotten that far).

          And I agree that Hammond likely had the final say in what was revealed to Pete. I'm sure Jack had some input into the decision, but I don't think he got the final decision in the matter.

          I do have to say I find it unbelievable that there was no fallout from what Pete did (or, at least we didn't get to see it). I would think the AF/Pentagon would have done some sort of thorough background check on him, and he would have gotten reprimanded for sticking his nose into business that didn't concern him. Instead, we are left to think he got a pat on the back and a huge reward (Sam) for crashing a classified operation and the background check on Sam.

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            Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
            Nice review.

            Spoilered for length:
            Spoiler:
            It's interesting you bring this up because the Daniel arc here does get lost in shipper discussions but to be honest, I've always believed that in part the reason why it gets lost in those discussions is not just our natural tendency to focus on Sam/Jack but also because from an episode point of view, the arc just isn't strong enough - there's not enough focus on it. It's almost as though Sam's sub-plot with Pete has equal precedence in terms of time and focus rather than being a sub-plot.

            For me, one of the reasons I've never liked Chimera is because I genuinely don't think it's a good episode.

            I love the concept of Daniel being stalked by Osiris for his knowledge about the lost city via a Tok'ra device and his dreams, and this might have been a fascinating way of exploring "old" Daniel pre-Stargate versus "new". And the decision to let it play out to determine whether he does have that knowledge and knowing that they have to stop Osiris, with the resolution that in the end Daniel does get to save Sarah - something he didn't get to do with Sha're. But not enough is made of it, IMO.

            I've always been of the opinion that there were better ways for Sam and Jack to find their way to each other than through the device of a third person forcing the issue in regards to their feelings, and certainly I have no love of the Sam/Pete/Jack storyline as it played out (namely because I don't think it was all that well thought out). However, as I don't have a handy time-travel device to change that...

            Pete: I too think the idea of Pete is actually a lot better than the execution. I think the problem is three-fold: casting, characterisation and plotting. David DeLuise is an attractive guy but he's not Alpha enough to play opposite Tapping who is simply stunning. As a result, Pete doesn't come across as a realistic rival to Jack - and while some of that may have been the point, I think it actually undermines the concept. The second point is in the characterisation. For me, Pete starts out OK. He's a bit dorky but he makes Sam laugh, he's obviously interested in her, and he's not afraid of letting her know it. But the morning after discussion when he gets annoyed at her being professionally unable to tell him about her work and storms out; the background check which violates her privacy; the following her...all of these beats reveal a deep insecurity and want to control that casts a pall over the rest; his romantic date becomes less of sweet gesture and more of a guy trying too hard and hoping for a reward at the end of the night. Again, if the characterisation had remained a cop who was just genuinely interested in Sam, who accepted her word and trusted her, it may have been more believable. And in the storyline if he had stumbled on the op not because of his own pruient interest because he was part of a group of cops checking out a suspicious call or something, it may have undone some of the damage. But Pete is Pete: an insecure man who can't believe how lucky he is to find someone like Sam, and who is desperately trying to keep her. At the end of the episode, it is totally unbelievable from what we know of Sam at this point, that she would be with someone like Pete.

            Sam: I too enjoy seeing Sam taking at least one of the lessons from Grace and embracing being her personal side and enjoying being a woman. But I think what Chimera shows is a continuation of the theme of Grace - that while Sam has confidence in herself as a soldier and a scientist, that she doesn't fully trust her instincts as a woman. She puts up with Pete's outburst the morning after their night before rather than kicking him to the curb; she blames herself and the secrecy for his behaviour rather than blaming him. This was a side of Sam we really hadn't seen since Jonas Hansen; we'd seen Sam flustered and flattered by male attention (Marty, Orlin, Joe and Narim) but not submissive. It's not the Sam we've become familiar with, and not one that I think many of us were comfortable with seeing. Yet, I've seen this with friends and its typical of many women; confident in their careers and work but personally have little confidence with men and therefore blame themselves for relationship issues which any objective outsider would place on the man.

            I think in terms of the story of their relationship itself, I do kind of buy that. I don't think Sam sets out with any intention of this being a serious relationship. I think the blind date is her way of getting back on the horse so to speak; she enjoys Pete's company; enjoys his attention and more revels in it. She likes him. But she's a little disconcerted by his extended stay and on the date, when they're dancing and talking about growing old with someone, there's a sad expression on Sam's face as though she's thinking of her situation with Jack and that she can't grow old with him. In part, I do think that's why she allows herself to take the relationship with Pete to the next level; there's the pressure of the big romantic date anyway but I think that sadness leads to a 'I like Pete, Pete likes me, maybe this could lead to something long term' that means she invites him to bed. I think Sam blames herself for Pete's injury and that's why she promises to tell him everything and is with him at the end of the episode (that and the full truth of his background check, etc hadn't been told to her at that point). Do I think Pete was told everything? No. I think he got the story of the Stargate, that there are aliens out there and Sam works at keeping the planet safe. Nothing more.

            Sam and Jack: As far as her relationship with Jack is concerned, I don't think Sam had any intention of telling Jack about Pete per se. It's Jack who presses the issue in the elevator and Sam is quick to assure him it's not that serious; and he presses her again before stating he's happy she's happy. They both acknowledge it's not comfortable. I do think Sam takes the elevator scene as confirmation of her suspicion expressed in her hallucinatory conversation that Jack just wants friendship from her; that maybe he's stopped caring for her as more than a friend. And maybe that too adds to her decision to get more serious with Pete.

            Jack: For his part, Jack plays the 'friend' role, he even questions her before the op about why she's down/how things are going. I think Jack knows she was seeing someone and that's why he asked in the elevator. I think he genuinely does want her to be happy but he's keeping track of it and hoping I think that it goes nowhere. I do think Jack had been expecting a Pete for some time. And I do think it hurts him that Sam is moving on even though he equally makes the decision not to fight for her. Do I think Jack was annoyed by the interruption to the op and doesn't say anything to Sam? Yep. Do I think he had a say in Pete being informed? To some degree although I think the final say was George.


            Originally posted by hedwig View Post
            Spoiler:
            I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I would add that I think Pete should have been a one episode storyline and nothing more. It should never have gone further, and Sam should have gotten to enjoy her moment with him and sent him on his way. It would have been more believable for me.

            I also find your comment about Osiris "stalking" Daniel interesting, given the "stalking" Pete did. Both Sam and Daniel were "stalked" ... Daniel by someone who's host he cared about. And Sam by someone she came to care about (which should not have gotten that far).

            And I agree that Hammond likely had the final say in what was revealed to Pete. I'm sure Jack had some input into the decision, but I don't think he got the final decision in the matter.

            I do have to say I find it unbelievable that there was no fallout from what Pete did (or, at least we didn't get to see it). I would think the AF/Pentagon would have done some sort of thorough background check on him, and he would have gotten reprimanded for sticking his nose into business that didn't concern him. Instead, we are left to think he got a pat on the back and a huge reward (Sam) for crashing a classified operation and the background check on Sam.


            Agree with what you both said as I think Pete should not have lasted as long as he did.

            I recently read a fic on ff.net where Sam gets early warning of how far Pete wants to take their relationship and Sam ends it. This of course after a pretty good nudge from Cassie.

            The fic can be found here.
            No Sam w/o a Jack and no Jack w/o a Sam.
            It's like and immutable law of the multiverse.

            Comment


              Yet, I've seen this with friends and its typical of many women; confident in their careers and work but personally have little confidence with men and therefore blame themselves for relationship issues which any objective outsider would place on the man.
              It is so much easier where there are rules (military, workplace) but in personal relationships we are on our own and have to make it up as we go.
              Also the more you reveal about yourself the more you put yourself in a vulnerable position. You need a deep trust of the other person to let them see the 'real' you.

              I do think Sam takes the elevator scene as confirmation of her suspicion expressed in her hallucinatory conversation that Jack just wants friendship from her; that maybe he's stopped caring for her as more than a friend. And maybe that too adds to her decision to get more serious with Pete.
              But Jack seem uncomfortable (pissed perhaps) when leaving that elevator. That's not really a guy who is 'happy' about the situation, someone who can't change things but not happy.

              Jack: For his part, Jack plays the 'friend' role, he even questions her before the op about why she's down/how things are going. I think Jack knows she was seeing someone and that's why he asked in the elevator. I think he genuinely does want her to be happy but he's keeping track of it and hoping I think that it goes nowhere. I do think Jack had been expecting a Pete for some time. And I do think it hurts him that Sam is moving on even though he equally makes the decision not to fight for her. Do I think Jack was annoyed by the interruption to the op and doesn't say anything to Sam? Yep. Do I think he had a say in Pete being informed? To some degree although I think the final say was George.
              I agree
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                I do have to say I find it unbelievable that there was no fallout from what Pete did (or, at least we didn't get to see it). I would think the AF/Pentagon would have done some sort of thorough background check on him, and he would have gotten reprimanded for sticking his nose into business that didn't concern him. Instead, we are left to think he got a pat on the back and a huge reward (Sam) for crashing a classified operation and the background check on Sam.
                Good plot bunny for Jack reading Pete the riot act and a chance to size up the competition.
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                  Originally posted by Zoser View Post
                  Also the more you reveal about yourself the more you put yourself in a vulnerable position. You need a deep trust of the other person to let them see the 'real' you.
                  Interesting, since she's revealed so much of herself to Jack over the years; maybe not deliberately, but he still knows her better than anybody else does. On the other hand, she never really let Pete see the "real" her, so the person he proposed to was not the "real" Sam.

                  But Jack seem uncomfortable (pissed perhaps) when leaving that elevator. That's not really a guy who is 'happy' about the situation, someone who can't change things but not happy.
                  He may have been "happy" for Sam (or thought he was happy for her, but I really doubt it), but he clearly was not happy.

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                    wow great points Rachel, I agree that DD didn't really help Pete's case, and I also can't believe no-one at the SGC found out about the background check
                    - Someone mentioned they thought Pete should have been a single episode arc, and whilst I think it was important that Pete didn't die on Sam, I can see what they mean. I'm guessing being the director's brother would have helped DD's character's longevity

                    Did I hear a rumour that either BB or JF were considered for Pete before they were given bigger roles??? Could be completely wrong though!
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                      Originally posted by Zoser View Post
                      "She's compartmentalized him"
                      I think that's Sam's main problem. She seems not able or willing to give of herself entirely. Not Jonas, not Pete and even not Jack
                      You could say the same about Jack as well from what we've seen, with Laira as well as Kerry. I think with the jobs they have and the secrecy involved and their respective personalities, some degree of compartmentalization is inevitable.

                      Originally posted by hedwig View Post
                      I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I would add that I think Pete should have been a one episode storyline and nothing more. It should never have gone further, and Sam should have gotten to enjoy her moment with him and sent him on his way. It would have been more believable for me.
                      i rather liked Pete for the first part of Chimera, I think the fact that he was so unlike Jack or the other guys we've seen Sam with before made him work for me as someone she could fall for. He was a little goofy and easy-going and likely a nice break from the seriousness of the SGC. Then the storyline falls apart to me after he storms out in the morning and does the background check on her and later, like you said, he crashes the stakeout at Daniel's place with no apparent consequences.

                      I personally didn't mind Pete sticking around, but I would have preferred it if they didn't force the issue about him finding out about the SGC. It would have been more interesting IMO if he'd remained unaware of it entirely and given Sam that conflict about not being able to share everything with him (not unlike the Tony/Jeanne relationship for those who watch NCIS).

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                        Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                        i rather liked Pete for the first part of Chimera, I think the fact that he was so unlike Jack or the other guys we've seen Sam with before made him work for me as someone she could fall for. He was a little goofy and easy-going and likely a nice break from the seriousness of the SGC. Then the storyline falls apart to me after he storms out in the morning and does the background check on her and later, like you said, he crashes the stakeout at Daniel's place with no apparent consequences.

                        I personally didn't mind Pete sticking around, but I would have preferred it if they didn't force the issue about him finding out about the SGC. It would have been more interesting IMO if he'd remained unaware of it entirely and given Sam that conflict about not being able to share everything with him (not unlike the Tony/Jeanne relationship for those who watch NCIS).
                        Yeah, I agree with you, the first half, he was someone different and the little goofy, easy-going worked, but as you say after he storms out it ruins it for me (not that Sam/Other was something pleasant for me in the first place )
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                          Great response everyone Rachel - I think you did a great analysis!

                          My main problem with Pete is how he's written in. Given Sam's history, it doesn't seem out in left field that she'd date a guy like him. The problem is that he practically stalks her and then gets to find out about the SGC. That's the part that has me going "seriously?"

                          AT is just so amazing. She glowed in this episode

                          And I agree that both Jack and Sam do some compartmentalizing...however, Sam's is to the point that I don't think she shows Pete herself that deeply at all. I think Jack is the same with Kerry as he is with everyone else - distant. It's by virtue of time and proximity that Sam gets to truly know him. On the other hand, I don't think Pete would ever know Sam even if it had been their entire lives.

                          I do want to point out that Sam silently following along isn't out of character. We find it trusting that she follows Jack's orders (like with Fifth), but she also followed that one general (Bauer?). She didn't like it, but she obeyed. She also dated someone like Jonas and I think it took a HUGE amount of growth for her to walk away originally.

                          She's generally assertive, but there's a streak in her where she sort of just...gives in.

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                            Originally posted by Nynaeve506 View Post
                            I do want to point out that Sam silently following along isn't out of character. We find it trusting that she follows Jack's orders (like with Fifth), but she also followed that one general (Bauer?). She didn't like it, but she obeyed. She also dated someone like Jonas and I think it took a HUGE amount of growth for her to walk away originally.

                            She's generally assertive, but there's a streak in her where she sort of just...gives in.
                            I don't think she would be so willing to give in if she weren't in the military. She follows orders, even when she doesn't like them and/or disagrees with them (most of the time, anyway). And she has argued with Jack at various times about what was right or not. As an individual, private person, I think she would not give in that easily.

                            In the situation with Fifth, it wasn't like she could stop and argue with Jack about setting the clock to less time than she told Fifth (with Fifth standing right there). She clearly didn't like having to leave him behind, as shown by the scene on the bridge as they were escaping.

                            And with Bauer, yes, she followed his orders. But it was also very clear she didn't like those orders one little bit. If she was a civilian, I think she would have argued against them strenuously.

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                              Originally posted by hedwig View Post
                              I don't think she would be so willing to give in if she weren't in the military. She follows orders, even when she doesn't like them and/or disagrees with them (most of the time, anyway). And she has argued with Jack at various times about what was right or not. As an individual, private person, I think she would not give in that easily.

                              In the situation with Fifth, it wasn't like she could stop and argue with Jack about setting the clock to less time than she told Fifth (with Fifth standing right there). She clearly didn't like having to leave him behind, as shown by the scene on the bridge as they were escaping.

                              And with Bauer, yes, she followed his orders. But it was also very clear she didn't like those orders one little bit. If she was a civilian, I think she would have argued against them strenuously.
                              But the point is - she obeyed. That's what I'm trying to get at. It doesn't matter how she felt, she did it. Is she military because she fits the mold so well and she prefers to follow? Or does she obey because she's trained to do that?

                              Chicken or the egg.

                              Either way, I think it makes her relationship with Pete plausible.

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                                Originally posted by Nynaeve506 View Post
                                AT is just so amazing. She glowed in this episode
                                That she did, she must have fun with all the clothes too after all the years of BDUs.

                                And I agree that both Jack and Sam do some compartmentalizing...however, Sam's is to the point that I don't think she shows Pete herself that deeply at all. I think Jack is the same with Kerry as he is with everyone else - distant. It's by virtue of time and proximity that Sam gets to truly know him. On the other hand, I don't think Pete would ever know Sam even if it had been their entire lives.
                                Well, if time and proximity allows Sam to get to know someone like Jack, wouldn't the same help Pete to get to know Sam, esp since she isn't nearly as distant towards people as Jack generally is? In an odd sort of way, I can picture the relationship between Sam and Pete being not unlike Jack's relationship with Sara, one partner is left in the dark about the full truth of the other's life, but that doesn't necessarily keep them from truly knowing and loving them based on what they do know.

                                I do want to point out that Sam silently following along isn't out of character. We find it trusting that she follows Jack's orders (like with Fifth), but she also followed that one general (Bauer?). She didn't like it, but she obeyed. She also dated someone like Jonas and I think it took a HUGE amount of growth for her to walk away originally.

                                She's generally assertive, but there's a streak in her where she sort of just...gives in.
                                Also think Sam is a 'fixer', when presented with a problem she's driven by an 'I can make this work' mentality,' which is great when helping her pull off the impossible, but can also lead her to force something that may not be 'meant to be'.

                                I think Sam's first instinct with Pete, esp after her 'you know how it is' conversation with Jack was to just let him go and chock up the experience as a failure, she responds with 'I think he could have' not 'I think he can.' When presented with a second chance with him she jumps on it to avoid failure in a way, to make the relationship work despite the issues. That said, by Affinity I do feel she really does come to love Pete, I just can't see her agreeing to marry him if she didn't truly feel that way.

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