Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Zoser]

Sam: Who are you?
Grace: You know.
Sam: No, I don't know.
Jacob: I'm your father.

I'm so glad you picked up on that - I too found it curious.

As for Jack. He searches much to his frustration but comes up empty.
Sam comes back but without his aid. Does that strengthen the feeling in him that she does not need him?

[hlndncr]

I'm so glad you picked up on that - I too found it curious.

As for Jack. He searches much to his frustration but comes up empty.
Sam comes back but without his aid. Does that strengthen the feeling in him that she does not need him?

Excellent question. I hadn't considered it that way. But he certainly does seem to work to convince himself that she can be happy without him.

[Nynaeve506]

Jack seems to believe, on some level, that he has no right to put any sort of demand on Sam. Throughout the series, he rarely, if ever, asks for anything for himself. He sacrifices and gives and while I think he comes away from the place where he wanted to kill himself at the beginning, there's a fatalism in the way he approaches life. The wife he would have grown old with is long gone. The child he would have watched grow up and have kids is dead. The Stargate made him necessary again, and gave him something to contribute, but...

I'm going to make a small connection (I'm assuming no one here has read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan??). There's a character, Lan, the last King of Malkier and he refuses, for a while, to take the woman he loves as his wife (or to even show that affection) - he believes he will only make her a widow (per his destiny).

Sam is young, vibrant, and full of possibilities. I don't think Jack mopes around thinking of himself as an old warhorse or anything. I don't even know that he consciously thinks about it. I think he just sees Sam as out of his league period. She's a subordinate for one and freaking brilliant for another. She simply is not an option.

Again, I don't think Jack sits around feeling sorry for himself. It's more of a "I care about her and I want what I think is best for her and oh, by the way, I don't want to lose like I did before."

[Zoser]

I was thinking about the Evolution , Grace, Chimera arc.

For those of you who liked the steamy looks in Evolution but thought the colors were off check out
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post12060416
Mala is a Sam and Jack artist!!

Now after seeing this and the lunch invitation and the Grace kiss Chimera always seem as a WTF moment to me. The first time I saw it I thought it was Jack she was meeting for coffee - I think that was the impression they were trying to give to make Pete a surprise.

Thinking about that great review and analysis it seems that in Grace Sam solves the problem as a scientist and a soldier. She gets the ship to safety, gets the crew back and makes a potential friend as opposed to a definite enemy but her needs to fulfill her human, feminine side is her last point. And her first word is 'Jack'. But look at his face before she wakes and speaks.


or see the banner Josiane used.

This is not the confident Jack we know. She is alive by her own grit and intelligence not his muscle or skills as a military tactician. He is essence has failed her and look tentative, so unsure of himself. So when she calls him 'Jack' he puts on the persona he knows best 'Colonel O'Neill'. He pulls away, then pulls back with the 'shindig' but with the buffer of the rest of SG-1 and the moment is lost.
Sam needs to go elsewhere to find personal fulfillment in her life (outside of her profession) - (she can depend on herself as a soldier and as someone who figures out difficult problems (scientist - tactician) . I think she has to realize that she can do everything on her own to have a mature relationship, not one of dependence. Others have said this in the past but I never though she need to be with someone else to get together with Jack - I still don't like the idea but she needs this maturation. Where's Jack's?

[hedwig]

I was thinking about the Evolution , Grace, Chimera arc.

For those of you who liked the steamy looks in Evolution but thought the colors were off check out
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...1#post12060416
Mala is a Sam and Jack artist!!

Now after seeing this and the lunch invitation and the Grace kiss Chimera always seem as a WTF moment to me. The first time I saw it I thought it was Jack she was meeting for coffee - I think that was the impression they were trying to give to make Pete a surprise.

Thinking about that great review and analysis it seems that in Grace Sam solves the problem as a scientist and a soldier. She gets the ship to safety, gets the crew back and makes a potential friend as opposed to a definite enemy but her needs to fulfill her human, feminine side is her last point. And her first word is 'Jack'. But look at his face before she wakes and speaks.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...g1_713_871.jpg
or see the banner Josiane used.

This is not the confident Jack we know. She is alive by her own grit and intelligence not his muscle or skills as a military tactician. He is essence has failed her and look tentative, so unsure of himself. So when she calls him 'Jack' he puts on the persona he knows best 'Colonel O'Neill'. He pulls away, then pulls back with the 'shindig' but with the buffer of the rest of SG-1 and the moment is lost.
Sam needs to go elsewhere to find personal fulfillment in her life (outside of her profession) - (she can depend on herself as a soldier and as someone who figures out difficult problems (scientist - tactician) . I think she has to realize that she can do everything on her own to have a mature relationship, not one of dependence. Others have said this in the past but I never though she need to be with someone else to get together with Jack - I still don't like the idea but she needs this maturation. Where's Jack's?

I totally agree with the bolded part.

[Lilac736]

Okay, this is highly hypothetical, but do you think she would have tried to start something with Jack had he responded differently? I as well don’t think he meant it as reprimand. By calling him Jack Sam is changing her behavior rather drastically. As some of you said before, who knows how long he sat there waiting for her to wake up. I took his response, first and foremost, as surprise. Nevertheless, I’m sure for Sam it was like a rebuke. So yes, she falls back to their old pattern.
I really think Sam would not disobey regulations, so in order to be in a relationship with Jack she (or he) would have to resign her (his) position on SG-1. It would change her life dramatically and she seems not ready to do so. And to be honest maybe it’s understandable, in the end she goes for the somewhat less scary option.
I don’t think it’s only her relationship with Pete, but a mixture of all her experiences since “Grace” that helps her to risk it in “Threads”. SG-1 in the original formation doesn’t exist anymore, Jacob is dying, Jack has Kerry and these are only a few of all the things that have changed.
Another question is would Jack be willing at the time of “Grace”, because in later episodes he tends to cut her short when she tries to talk to him. So he obviously does not only let Sam take the lead in regard to their relationship and would be happy to throw regulations overboard, but he himself is not willing to change the status quo. All in all I think Sam as well as Jack needed time to change their lives and themselves to be ready.

[EvenstarSRV]

On the lesson learning thing, by the way, as a shipper, while yes she did learn she needed to pay some attention to her personal life, I'm not gonna agree that she did completely. My argument would be that if she did, why would she need to have another go at the confrontations? As a former medieval literature student I would draw comparisons with the stories of Perceval at the Grail Castle, having to go back for another go because he didn't ask quite the right question the first time around, and getting himself cast out in the wilderness (=Pete ) for a while until he could find his way back there and do it right this time, but I digress...

Well, I think like Sam tells herself, letting go of Jack wasn't going to be easy even if she wanted to do it. So to me, while Sam does start a relationship with Pete she still has feelings for Jack, and at stressful points like when he's about to die in Lost City or she's about to get engaged in Affinity, her commitment to developing a new relationship for herself will naturally come in conflict to an extent with her existing feelings for Jack. Sometimes I do think you have to get lost or make mistakes in order to find your back to the 'right' path.

Jack seems to believe, on some level, that he has no right to put any sort of demand on Sam. Throughout the series, he rarely, if ever, asks for anything for himself. He sacrifices and gives and while I think he comes away from the place where he wanted to kill himself at the beginning, there's a fatalism in the way he approaches life. The wife he would have grown old with is long gone. The child he would have watched grow up and have kids is dead. The Stargate made him necessary again, and gave him something to contribute, but...

I've always chalked up the bolded to Jack being Sam's superior officer. He lets her set the boundaries of their relationship, like keeping 'it' in the room, because any demands or requests he may make can come across as an abuse of his authority over her.

I'm going to make a small connection (I'm assuming no one here has read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan??). There's a character, Lan, the last King of Malkier and he refuses, for a while, to take the woman he loves as his wife (or to even show that affection) - he believes he will only make her a widow (per his destiny).

I've read WOT, though my goodness its a long series, not sure if I can get through the last few books. Interesting comparison with Lan though, is that where you screenname comes from?

This is not the confident Jack we know. She is alive by her own grit and intelligence not his muscle or skills as a military tactician. He is essence has failed her and look tentative, so unsure of himself. So when she calls him 'Jack' he puts on the persona he knows best 'Colonel O'Neill'. He pulls away, then pulls back with the 'shindig' but with the buffer of the rest of SG-1 and the moment is lost.
Sam needs to go elsewhere to find personal fulfillment in her life (outside of her profession) - (she can depend on herself as a soldier and as someone who figures out difficult problems (scientist - tactician) . I think she has to realize that she can do everything on her own to have a mature relationship, not one of dependence. Others have said this in the past but I never though she need to be with someone else to get together with Jack - I still don't like the idea but she needs this maturation. Where's Jack's?

See, I do think that Sam's character journey in Grace would have been for naught if she didn't try for a personal relationship with someone, because then she'd still be hiding behind her fears. But at this point in the series Jack is still just not a possibility and holding on to the idea of a someday with him is holding her back as much as her other fears IMO.

When Sam's need to find balance in her life is discussed, its usually said that she's weighted too much to the soldier/scientists sides and her personal side has been neglected, which I do agree with to an extent (noting that her friendships with Janet, Cassie, etc have been nourishing her personal/feminine aspects). But to me, for Sam to try for a relationship with Jack after Grace would necessitate her leaving SG-1 and potentially the Air Force, which IMHO would keep her just as imbalanced because then she'd be neglecting the soldier/scientist for the personal side.

In regards to Jack, it's true would don't see nearly as much of his personal journey from Grace through Threads as we do of Sam's, so I have a harder time trying to figure out his actions and feelings compared to Sam's. I think the main journey Jack goes through is the process of slowly letting go, both of his team and Sam to an extent. Sam's on the brink of getting her own command and she, Daniel and Teal'c have proven that they can be successful without his direct involvement or leadership. With Sam, she's chosen to try for this relationship with another guy and, like he's always done, he accepts the boundaries she puts on their relationship. So to me, while Sam is becoming more proactive, both as a soldier/scientist and a woman, Jack in contrast is becoming more reactionary or passive to an extent. Not sure if that makes any sense really.

[hlndncr]

And Jacob's speech about what loving her mom (she really does need a first name!) meant to him is the main revelation that I think Sam had from the experience, which then leads her to letting go of the intractable situation between her and Jack and trying for that kind of happiness she believes her parents shared.

I have to whole heartedly disagree with this statement. I think Sam is telling herself (through Jacob) that she needs to be willing to risk something to have the kind of love her parents had. I don't think that required her to let go of Jack and I don't think she believed it either or she wouldn't have even contemplated leaving the Air Force for him.

I think in the end she did completely retreat from this lesson because the kind of love her parents shared required real commitment and real risk. She was never fully committed to Pete and she never totally let go of Jack. When Pete was being a jerk in Chimera, who did she talk with? Jack. When Pete proposed, who did she tell? Jack. When she was having doubts about the wedding, who did she go to? Jack. And in a thousand other ways I will be sure to list as the rewatch goes on, she demonstrated that her heart stayed with Jack, and losing him is what would truly hurt. Her relationship to Pete didn't open her up to love, it was her retreat from love. It gave her the excuse she wanted to shy away from the really scary total commitment of true love (the kind her parents had) and protect her heart.

I have this scene in my mind (that someday I may get around to writing down) of her talking with Mark after her break up with Pete and he's worried she's made a big mistake letting him go and then he finds out that she's married her former CO (because in my world they got married shortly after Threads). He thinks her relationship with Jack is a reaction to their dad's death and her break up with Pete. Obviously, he doesn't know the history, and he can't understand why she would make such a rash decision. Sam turns to him and says, "Mark, you just don't get it. Jack isn't my rebound guy. Pete was."

And that's how I see it.

[Akamaimom]

I have to whole heartedly disagree with this statement. I think Sam is telling herself (through Jacob) that she needs to be willing to risk something to have the kind of love her parents had. I don't think that required her to let go of Jack and I don't think she believed it either or she wouldn't have even contemplated leaving the Air Force for him.

I think in the end she did completely retreat from this lesson because the kind of love her parents shared required real commitment and real risk. She was never fully committed to Pete and she never totally let go of Jack. When Pete was being a jerk in Chimera, who did she talk with? Jack. When Pete proposed, who did she tell? Jack. When she was having doubts about the wedding, who did she go to? Jack. And in a thousand other ways I will be sure to list as the rewatch goes on, she demonstrated that her heart stayed with Jack, and losing him is what would truly hurt. Her relationship to Pete didn't open her up to love, it was her retreat from love. It gave her the excuse she wanted to shy away from the really scary total commitment of true love (the kind her parents had) and protect her heart.

I have this scene in my mind (that someday I may get around to writing down) of her talking with Mark after her break up with Pete and he's worried she's made a big mistake letting him go and then he finds out that she's married her former CO (because in my world they got married shortly after Threads). He thinks her relationship with Jack is a reaction to their dad's death and her break up with Pete. Obviously, he doesn't know the history, and he can't understand why she would make such a rash decision. Sam turns to him and says, "Mark, you just don't get it. Jack isn't my rebound guy. Pete was."

And that's how I see it.

Great line! I like it!

As for the Jack reaction at the end of Grace--I've always just taken it as a surprise. He's surprised that she's come to and called him by his first name. But he hadn't gone through the experience with her--he didn't know that in her mind, she'd just had that conversation with him, or kissed him and then not kissed him. He doesn't know any of that, or he might have responded differently. So, I take his being there at all as statement enough of his feelings for her--the same he's done for years, now, when she's been incapacitated in some way. It's her pulling away that keeps them on the same keel that they've been on for years.

Of course, he also doesn't do anything to take them out of the room. I think that his idea there is just to maintain the status quo.

[hlndncr]

Okay, this is highly hypothetical, but do you think she would have tried to start something with Jack had he responded differently?

Another question is would Jack be willing at the time of “Grace”, because in later episodes he tends to cut her short when she tries to talk to him. So he obviously does not only let Sam take the lead in regard to their relationship and would be happy to throw regulations overboard, but he himself is not willing to change the status quo. All in all I think Sam as well as Jack needed time to change their lives and themselves to be ready.

No I don't. And I don't think either of them "would be happy to throw regulations overboard."

I guess I just don't read as much into that last scene as others. I think Sam was still a little disoriented when she woke up. She had already in a sense given herself permission to use his name in her own mind and I'm not sure she knew it was real at first. Her apologizing was just a realization that this was real (something she was often uncertain of during the course of events) and she had made a mistake. Jack's reaction just seems like surprise to me and I don't think he makes anything of it either.

If he had responded differently? Like "Hey Sam, glad your back." I think it would have taken her a little longer to realize it wasn't a hallucination, but in the end the results would have been the same. JMHO.

EDIT: I see AKA beat me to it and said it better.

[Zoser]

I have to whole heartedly disagree with this statement. I think Sam is telling herself (through Jacob) that she needs to be willing to risk something to have the kind of love her parents had. I don't think that required her to let go of Jack and I don't think she believed it either or she wouldn't have even contemplated leaving the Air Force for him.

I think in the end she did completely retreat from this lesson because the kind of love her parents shared required real commitment and real risk. She was never fully committed to Pete and she never totally let go of Jack. When Pete was being a jerk in Chimera, who did she talk with? Jack. When Pete proposed, who did she tell? Jack. When she was having doubts about the wedding, who did she go to? Jack. And in a thousand other ways I will be sure to list as the rewatch goes on, she demonstrated that her heart stayed with Jack, and losing him is what would truly hurt. Her relationship to Pete didn't open her up to love, it was her retreat from love. It gave her the excuse she wanted to shy away from the really scary total commitment of true love (the kind her parents had) and protect her heart.

I have this scene in my mind (that someday I may get around to writing down) of her talking with Mark after her break up with Pete and he's worried she's made a big mistake letting him go and then he finds out that she's married her former CO (because in my world they got married shortly after Threads). He thinks her relationship with Jack is a reaction to their dad's death and her break up with Pete. Obviously, he doesn't know the history, and he can't understand why she would make such a rash decision. Sam turns to him and says, "Mark, you just don't get it. Jack isn't my rebound guy. Pete was."



And that's how I see it.

I agree and am looking forward to reading this fic!

[Nynaeve506]

Well, I think like Sam tells herself, letting go of Jack wasn't going to be easy even if she wanted to do it. So to me, while Sam does start a relationship with Pete she still has feelings for Jack, and at stressful points like when he's about to die in Lost City or she's about to get engaged in Affinity, her commitment to developing a new relationship for herself will naturally come in conflict to an extent with her existing feelings for Jack. Sometimes I do think you have to get lost or make mistakes in order to find your back to the 'right' path.

Agreed. I think additionally Sam had ideas of how a relationship should be and has vainly, throughout her life, tried to fit her own ideal (which was all wrong for her to begin with). I'm of the camp that Pete was a good (if not uber insecure) guy and that his buying a house etc, wasn't evidence of him not seeing her, but evidence that Sam was instead presenting and agreeing to something she was not.

I've always chalked up the bolded to Jack being Sam's superior officer. He lets her set the boundaries of their relationship, like keeping 'it' in the room, because any demands or requests he may make can come across as an abuse of his authority over her.

Yes! I agree with this as well - but I don't think that it was the sole and only reason. People step over lines all the live long day. Not only does Jack respect his position and his rank and so forth, but I do think that there's a level there where even if all was stripped away, he still wouldn't approach Sam. I'm all about layers. People are complicated, messy beings

I've read WOT, though my goodness its a long series, not sure if I can get through the last few books. Interesting comparison with Lan though, is that where you screenname comes from?

That's where it comes from I'm like Nynaeve in good ways and bad ways :/

Great line! I like it!

As for the Jack reaction at the end of Grace--I've always just taken it as a surprise. He's surprised that she's come to and called him by his first name. But he hadn't gone through the experience with her--he didn't know that in her mind, she'd just had that conversation with him, or kissed him and then not kissed him. He doesn't know any of that, or he might have responded differently. So, I take his being there at all as statement enough of his feelings for her--the same he's done for years, now, when she's been incapacitated in some way. It's her pulling away that keeps them on the same keel that they've been on for years.

Of course, he also doesn't do anything to take them out of the room. I think that his idea there is just to maintain the status quo.

Agreed.

VIEWING QUESTION...

I'm up for Chimera tomorrow. Are we there yet or am I postponed?

[josiane]

Nope, we're there

Looks like you're all having an interesting discussion, sadly I haven't got time to reply properly right now

[hlndncr]

VIEWING QUESTION...

I'm up for Chimera tomorrow. Are we there yet or am I postponed?

Nope, we're there

Actually, I believe we have Fallout first, which is Rachel. Then Chimera on Thursday. Since we pushed everything back one slot when I got sick and did the review for Birthright so late.

[hedwig]

Actually, I believe we have Fallout first, which is Rachel. Then Chimera on Thursday. Since we pushed everything back one slot when I got sick and did the review for Birthright so late.

That's the correct line-up:

Grace
Fallout
Chimera
Death Knell
etc.