Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Akamaimom]

I wanted to jump in here to offer the "officer's daughter" perspective on Sam. One of the things I'm astounded by with the writers is how very accurately they wrote Sam's character. I grew up with a career military father - a man who had deep principles, was very proud of me, and would move heaven and earth if he thought it would make me happy.

That said, I would argue the primary reason Sam joined the military is partly rooted in Jacob. She was a military brat and the military was her culture. I speak from personal experience here - it was probably one of the most painful things in the world to hand in my dependent ID when I graduated college. I lost a piece of myself in a way that I can't define. I love it when I'm near a military base and there's tons of people in uniform...I feel like I'm "home", if that makes any sense.

I actually almost joined the USAF because of this inexplicable ache inside to be part of the world I was so quickly exiled from because I wasn't the one active duty.

I genuinely think that's why Sam joined. Throughout the series she has demonstrated a very "military" mindset (making her fit so well with Jack). She bleeds USAF. One of the unfortunate side effects, however, of being a military brat, is the inability to form a unique identity. Whatever Jacob conveyed, she grew up with expectations to be a certain way (when you're an officer's child, you are drilled from an early age to BEHAVE. There is a decorum that you are to follow because your missteps can cause your parent to be dressed down by their CO).

It's all about the unspoken with Sam. Her father's "unspoken expectations" - real or imagined (after all, in "Grace" this is HER subconscious telling her what she perceives). Jack's unspoken feelings. Her own unspoken feelings. Her own unspoken dreams. Her own unspoken expectations. Her unspoken acceptance of her circumstances.

I don't know if any of that makes sense. I wish I had more time to craft my answers but life just keeps me constantly going. I've always loved the Sam character because I see my own relational experiences in her and I'm just blown away by how incredibly multi-layered and nuanced her character is in capturing such realism.

My two cents for what it's worth.

I love this explanation, and yes--it made beautiful sense.

I felt the same way in a sense. My mom was a university professor, and I lived in a small campus town. Everyone had this sense about them that academia was where "it" was at, and that those not involved were provincial, or lacking, somehow. It took several years living away from that, and married to someone who had been the son of a tradesman, to change my mindset. I know it's not nearly the same as being military, but there were some parallels, I'm sure. For example, someone finishing a dissertation was afforded massive amounts of help by those in the department--meals brought in, children cared for when the occasion called for it, etc. There's an unspoken hierarchy amongst them--those that publish are more respected than those that don't, division and department heads are given the benefit of the doubt, and length of time on campus and number of committees chaired are key to respect. It's a very insular community.

And faculty and staff dependents don't, in general, associate much with each other.

I can totally see your arguments making a huge impact on Sam in her formative and then later years--especially the part bolded above. If I hadn't been the child of an English teacher--I thought that the Language arts were MOST important--then I would have found other fields--science, and business, for example--interesting, too. All of my siblings have at least a bachelor's degree in English. To say that a unique identity is lacking here, is profound and insightful.

[siles]

I love this explanation, and yes--it made beautiful sense.

I felt the same way in a sense. My mom was a university professor, and I lived in a small campus town. Everyone had this sense about them that academia was where "it" was at, and that those not involved were provincial, or lacking, somehow. It took several years living away from that, and married to someone who had been the son of a tradesman, to change my mindset. I know it's not nearly the same as being military, but there were some parallels, I'm sure. For example, someone finishing a dissertation was afforded massive amounts of help by those in the department--meals brought in, children cared for when the occasion called for it, etc. There's an unspoken hierarchy amongst them--those that publish are more respected than those that don't, division and department heads are given the benefit of the doubt, and length of time on campus and number of committees chaired are key to respect. It's a very insular community.

And faculty and staff dependents don't, in general, associate much with each other.

I can totally see your arguments making a huge impact on Sam in her formative and then later years--especially the part bolded above. If I hadn't been the child of an English teacher--I thought that the Language arts were MOST important--then I would have found other fields--science, and business, for example--interesting, too. All of my siblings have at least a bachelor's degree in English. To say that a unique identity is lacking here, is profound and insightful.

You're both so right. So if Sam gets her love for AF from her father, can we assume she gets her love for Math and Science from her mother? I so wish we would have gotten much more things about SAm's mother in the series. Here's something thath might be touched upon in a fic or hopefully the next movie

[Aveo_amacus]

You're both so right. So if Sam gets her love for AF from her father, can we assume she gets her love for Math and Science from her mother? I so wish we would have gotten much more things about SAm's mother in the series. Here's something thath might be touched upon in a fic or hopefully the next movie

I don't know if you can definitively assume the Math and Science came from her mother, but it would have been good to know more about her - like a first name!

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

I've also wondered for a long time what the issue is with calling Jack "sir". Is there any actual rule that Sam must call him "sir" at all times, regardless of the situation? Does the Air Force or other military service require this? Or is this simply a personal choice that Sam has made, which she can change at any time? I don't think all CO's demand that they be addressed as "sir" at all times, so I don't really think that Jack would demand it of Sam either. After all, Jack calls Hammond "George" (to his face) occasionally, and doesn't always address him as "sir", so I don't see where this issue comes from.

IIRC, I read on one of the veterans threads (or maybe it was just a post from a veteran) that there are certain circumstances where she'd have to call him sir. Whether she has to call him sir in private is a decision made by the parties involved.

Seaboe

[Nynaeve506]

IIRC, I read on one of the veterans threads (or maybe it was just a post from a veteran) that there are certain circumstances where she'd have to call him sir. Whether she has to call him sir in private is a decision made by the parties involved.

Seaboe

Just agreeing When my best friend joined up, my dad joked he was going to wear his uniform just to make her salute him (even though she thought of us as second family). He didn't of course

Additionally, I'm going to argue that Jack's not always the epitome of regs...

[EvenstarSRV]

I wanted to jump in here to offer the "officer's daughter" perspective on Sam. One of the things I'm astounded by with the writers is how very accurately they wrote Sam's character. I grew up with a career military father - a man who had deep principles, was very proud of me, and would move heaven and earth if he thought it would make me happy.

That said, I would argue the primary reason Sam joined the military is partly rooted in Jacob. She was a military brat and the military was her culture. I speak from personal experience here - it was probably one of the most painful things in the world to hand in my dependent ID when I graduated college. I lost a piece of myself in a way that I can't define. I love it when I'm near a military base and there's tons of people in uniform...I feel like I'm "home", if that makes any sense.

I actually almost joined the USAF because of this inexplicable ache inside to be part of the world I was so quickly exiled from because I wasn't the one active duty.

I genuinely think that's why Sam joined. Throughout the series she has demonstrated a very "military" mindset (making her fit so well with Jack). She bleeds USAF. One of the unfortunate side effects, however, of being a military brat, is the inability to form a unique identity. Whatever Jacob conveyed, she grew up with expectations to be a certain way (when you're an officer's child, you are drilled from an early age to BEHAVE. There is a decorum that you are to follow because your missteps can cause your parent to be dressed down by their CO).

It's all about the unspoken with Sam. Her father's "unspoken expectations" - real or imagined (after all, in "Grace" this is HER subconscious telling her what she perceives). Jack's unspoken feelings. Her own unspoken feelings. Her own unspoken dreams. Her own unspoken expectations. Her unspoken acceptance of her circumstances.

I don't know if any of that makes sense. I wish I had more time to craft my answers but life just keeps me constantly going. I've always loved the Sam character because I see my own relational experiences in her and I'm just blown away by how incredibly multi-layered and nuanced her character is in capturing such realism.

My two cents for what it's worth.

You're making sense and thanks for sharing that perspective. I do agree that Sam joined the Air Force in part because of her father, she also comes across as very comfortable in the military environment and joining would allow her to stay in that. I just don't think he was the only reason she joined up.

My was comment was more about not understanding josiane's comment that Sam has been trying to live up to an image that she believes Jacob has of her and her not being able to for some reason. Because it seems to me that by joining the Air Force and thriving in a job she loves Sam is meeting Jacob's expectations, real or imagined.

My take on the conversation with Jacob is that it had little to do with the Air Force or his expectations, but more about Sam's mom and the relationship she and Jacob had, since I think that was the root of Sam's fear that loving someone ends in pain. And Jacob's speech about what loving her mom (she really does need a first name!) meant to him is the main revelation that I think Sam had from the experience, which then leads her to letting go of the intractable situation between her and Jack and trying for that kind of happiness she believes her parents shared.

[Lucycat]

IIRC, I read on one of the veterans threads (or maybe it was just a post from a veteran) that there are certain circumstances where she'd have to call him sir. Whether she has to call him sir in private is a decision made by the parties involved.

Seaboe

Like Kawalski. He was a Major but called Oneill "Jack". I don't recall any other subordinate calling him by his first name.

[josiane]

My was comment was more about not understanding josiane's comment that Sam has been trying to live up to an image that she believes Jacob has of her and her not being able to for some reason. Because it seems to me that by joining the Air Force and thriving in a job she loves Sam is meeting Jacob's expectations, real or imagined.

My take on the conversation with Jacob is that it had little to do with the Air Force or his expectations, but more about Sam's mom and the relationship she and Jacob had, since I think that was the root of Sam's fear that loving someone ends in pain. And Jacob's speech about what loving her mom (she really does need a first name!) meant to him is the main revelation that I think Sam had from the experience, which then leads her to letting go of the intractable situation between her and Jack and trying for that kind of happiness she believes her parents shared.

I should clarify, the conversation Sam and Jacob have in Grace is exactly what you say it is, at least from Jacob's POV (and subconsciously from Sam's, of course, since it's her hallucination). I would argue that the conversation shows that Sam is trying to live up to her dad's expectations, or more importantly, what she thinks her dad's expectations are of her, and for that it is interesting, I think, that she justifies her happiness in terms of her job. Her dad is trying to tell her that he's worried she's not happy (or rather, her image of her dad is trying to tell her that - discussing the Grace conversations can get complicated ) and her default reaction is to tell him she has the best job in the world. This shows, I think, both that Sam views herself primarily in terms of her work (again the dominance of her Scientist/Soldier aspects), and also that she views her dad's perception of her (or wants to view her dad's perception of her) in those terms.

I think it's interesting that when we get the repeat of the 'are you happy' conversation with Jacob in Threads, it's Jacob that brings up the Air Force, although of course he is doing so in order to make a point about her personal life. He even says "You joined the Air Force because of me". Sam doesn't fall back on the 'my life's great, look at what I get to do for a living defence' this time - perhaps because, as Evenstar pointed out, she did partially learn the lesson she needed to from Grace and get a life with Pete.

On the lesson learning thing, by the way, as a shipper, while yes she did learn she needed to pay some attention to her personal life, I'm not gonna agree that she did completely. My argument would be that if she did, why would she need to have another go at the confrontations? As a former medieval literature student I would draw comparisons with the stories of Perceval at the Grail Castle, having to go back for another go because he didn't ask quite the right question the first time around, and getting himself cast out in the wilderness (=Pete ) for a while until he could find his way back there and do it right this time, but I digress...

[Rachel500]

Grace

Great review, Josi, and great discussion.

Sam

This is one of my favourite episodes of Stargate. I love it when they do a whole story which includes a deconstruction of a character at the same time.

Josi's covered most of the Soldier/Scientist/Woman aspect of Sam's personality and the way Grace shows that she's not fully reconciled all parts of her; repressing the woman in favour of the soldier/scientist. For me, Grace is Sam's representation of herself; she refuses to recognise herself in the little girl, but as Daniel says has to talk to herself and figure out what she (Sam) wants even though she's scared. It's only after Sam has had those conversations that Grace sparks the idea that saves her.

On whether she joined the Air Force because of Jacob, I can see why Jacob would feel that Sam joined the Air Force because of him and would say so in Threads, (because from his perspective, she was trying to please him, that he had encouraged her in that direction, that perhaps paternal approval was why he had joined). I think Sam's reasons are multi-layered; motivated by her want to get into space, that the Air Force is a known quantity that suits her personality, and that it makes her father happy to see her following in his footsteps. From Sam's perspective, I'm sure she believes that she joined the Air Force not just because of her father - and in fact it may even be despite of her father.

However, in the Grace discussion with the hallucination of her father, I think Sam is recalling some of a discussion that actually happened; her father asking her if she's happy; if there's anyone in her life outside of work; hinting at marriage and a family. Parents occasionally do have that conversation particularly with children who are career-wise stable and getting to an age where 'settling down' should be happening from a sociological and parental expectation perspective.

And I think some of Sam's initial answers are those that she probably gave Jacob in an actual discussion; she loves her job, she's happy, she hasn't got time for dating...only her hallucination calls her on the excuses - she's scared of losing someone and that's at the root of why she avoids love.

Sam and Jack

For me, Evolution leaves Sam and Jack at a very similar point to Nemesis on a personal level of their relationship. They both professionally very in synch, of course, and on a personal basis, their feelings for each other, their concern for the other, are bleeding through again but without an actual conversation both don't really know for sure how the other feels.

But if there was ever a moment where they were going to take it out of the room before Threads this is it, and that's almost underlined in Grace, because it's Sam telling herself that the time has come when she has to make a decision.

The conversation Sam has with herself I think is very telling: she's scared that Jack's concern and love for her are based only in friendship; she's scared of having a conversation with him to ask, and yet doesn't want to ask because if the answer wasn't the one she wants, she'd have to move on. She realises that maybe she is the stopping point; that she's scared of love and that by focusing on something unattainable, she's able to keep herself safe. She acknowledges that she deserves more, and that Jack will be there for her whatever happens. And that she fantasises about Jack for a moment for me underscores that for that second, gives away that she what she truly wants is Jack; to risk her heart on Jack; to have a relationship with him.

What, of course, happens is that Sam, faced with reality, moves forward with the first part of her self-revelations: that she should face her fear of loss and risk her heart, explore a personal relationship. And misses the second part: that she should do that with the man she actually wants, Jack. While I don't think he means and she takes his questioning of the use of her name as a reprimand as such, I think it is for Sam very much a slap of reality and one that makes her retreat behind her safety barriers again as far as moving forward with him specifically is concerned.

And poor Jack in Grace. Going out of his mind because Sam's missing and they can't find her. He's giving away just how much he still loves her. All of which, of course, Sam doesn't see.

[Akamaimom]

AS for the Jacob/Sam Air Force thing--it could that Sam, being the intelligent woman that she is, knew that in order to be an astronaut, she needed to be military. It's the best way to be allowed into the training programs. Most astronauts during her formative years were military officers.

That might be a big part of her choice.

[Aveo_amacus]

What, of course, happens is that Sam, faced with reality, moves forward with the first part of her self-revelations: that she should face her fear of loss and risk her heart, explore a personal relationship. And misses the second part: that she should do that with the man she actually wants, Jack. While I don't think he means and she takes his questioning of the use of her name as a reprimand as such, I think it is for Sam very much a slap of reality and one that makes her retreat behind her safety barriers again as far as moving forward with him specifically is concerned.

And poor Jack in Grace. Going out of his mind because Sam's missing and they can't find her. He's giving away just how much he still loves her. All of which, of course, Sam doesn't see.

Definitely, I'm sure Jack never meant it as a reprimand, but Sam on the other hand probably did. And like you say Rachel she took it as an indication/excuse to run away from it and try a relationship with Pete

AS for the Jacob/Sam Air Force thing--it could that Sam, being the intelligent woman that she is, knew that in order to be an astronaut, she needed to be military. It's the best way to be allowed into the training programs. Most astronauts during her formative years were military officers.

That might be a big part of her choice.

I think NASA was a big part of her choice, but I do think Jacob also being in the Air Force did have an influence - like most things it's not just one thing but more a combination of lots of different factors that add together

[Nynaeve506]

AS for the Jacob/Sam Air Force thing--it could that Sam, being the intelligent woman that she is, knew that in order to be an astronaut, she needed to be military. It's the best way to be allowed into the training programs. Most astronauts during her formative years were military officers.

That might be a big part of her choice.

People are complicated in general, but it's interesting the career she got pulled towards and the means by which to get there fit something that she's ultimately very, very comfortable with.

[Akamaimom]

People are complicated in general, but it's interesting the career she got pulled towards and the means by which to get there fit something that she's ultimately very, very comfortable with.

Don't you think that people see their own futures in many ways by what has either worked or not worked for their parents? I can't tell you how many people I know who follow, either wittingly or not, in the footsteps of their parents. Surgeons whose parents were surgeons, lawyers whose parents were lawyers, teachers, funeral home operators, race car drivers, machine shop owners, pawn shop owners. How many of us work in a field completely outside the realm of what their parents did? I think that situation is the anomaly, and not the norm.

[hedwig]

Don't you think that people see their own futures in many ways by what has either worked or not worked for their parents? I can't tell you how many people I know who follow, either wittingly or not, in the footsteps of their parents. Surgeons whose parents were surgeons, lawyers whose parents were lawyers, teachers, funeral home operators, race car drivers, machine shop owners, pawn shop owners. How many of us work in a field completely outside the realm of what their parents did? I think that situation is the anomaly, and not the norm.

I did.

[Akamaimom]

I did.

I think, however, worldwide, that it's still not the norm. You're just special that way.