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    I kind of like Season 7. I guess we're disagreeing all around! But that's what makes the discussion interesting, right?
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      Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post
      I kind of like Season 7. I guess we're disagreeing all around! But that's what makes the discussion interesting, right?
      I don't dislike Season 7, although it has some real stinkers IMO, I just like Season 8 better in comparison.

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        Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
        I don't dislike Season 7, although it has some real stinkers IMO, I just like Season 8 better in comparison.
        Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post
        I kind of like Season 7. I guess we're disagreeing all around! But that's what makes the discussion interesting, right?
        I admit season seven is my least favourite season (not counting nine and ten), I'm sorry if I've been to vehement about it. I lent my season seven box to a friend, but after reading some of your post I will definitely watch some of the episodes again. So keep your positive thoughts coming, you might convince me.
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          I just went back and looked at all of the episodes, and there are some eps that I didn't really care for. But because I really like the quirky episodes (BIG fan of "Citizen Joe", for example), season 7 had those for me. I liked Space Race, and Avenger 2.0, and Fallout, and loved Death Knell and Grace. And then the final three episodes of the season are some of my favorites from the entire series. I can't EVER watch Chimera again. I don't enjoy that episode, and I didn't like Resurrection or Lifeboat as much as others, but all in all, I like Season 7.
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            Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post
            I just went back and looked at all of the episodes, and there are some eps that I didn't really care for. But because I really like the quirky episodes (BIG fan of "Citizen Joe", for example), season 7 had those for me. I liked Space Race, and Avenger 2.0, and Fallout, and loved Death Knell and Grace. And then the final three episodes of the season are some of my favorites from the entire series. I can't EVER watch Chimera again. I don't enjoy that episode, and I didn't like Resurrection or Lifeboat as much as others, but all in all, I like Season 7.
            I think you make a good point. For me Season 7 has a lot of highs and lows in terms of episodes and the ship. Lost City is definitely at the top of my all-time favorites list. Whereas episodes like Resurrection definitely scrape the very bottom of the barrell for me. Season 7 also has this:


            Giff by Pol

            The almost perfect S/J kiss (Perfect would be non-hullicination and a little longer. )

            But it also has (ie Chimera)

            Season 8 is more consistent in terms of episodes, and there's fishing!

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              Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
              I think you make a good point. For me Season 7 has a lot of highs and lows in terms of episodes and the ship. Lost City is definitely at the top of my all-time favorites list. Whereas episodes like Resurrection definitely scrape the very bottom of the barrell for me. Season 7 also has this:

              [IMG]http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af243/hlndncr/Every%20Sam%20and%20Jack%20Shippy%20Moment%20Ever/Grace_Kiss_Pol.gif[/URL]
              Giff by Pol

              The almost perfect S/J kiss (Perfect would be non-hullicination and a little longer. )

              But it also has (ie Chimera)

              Season 8 is more consistent in terms of episodes, and there's fishing!
              Wholehearted agreement from me! And Yowza on the Grace Kiss.
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                Daniel/Bill and Military Escort

                I get that Hammond maybe thought we'll send the scientists in without an escort because that's an unstable part of the world and maybe they won't draw any/less attention if its just the scientists BUT I rather think it should have been more along the lines of 'that's an unstable part of the world and while we want to keep this on the downlow maybe one escort for two of our best scientists isn't a bad idea just in case.'

                I also realise the point of the story in some ways was to emphasise Daniel's heroism and military smarts so an escort would have gotten in the way of that (but if they'd included a red shirt escort they could have easily killed him off when they got captured).

                Evolution Part II

                Generally


                Like I said, I like Evolution as a story but admittedly I like the 1st part better than the 2nd.

                In some ways, I don't mind Bill being the woobie scientist to Daniel's seasoned off-worlder in the story here. Up to this point, Bill was in Prodigy as an offworld scientist with little respect for the military but more than the lead scientist on the moon-base; and then he appeared as the lead scientist sent to look at the arch in Paradise Lost once the area was secure; confident in his abilities and with enough science chutzpah to stand up to Sam. It seems likely to me that Bill in his off-world exploits was always well-protected and hadn't really come across a torture/capture scenario. And although Bill is used a little for the comic relief in Evolution (falling through to the underground tunnel, the issue with the money on hiring the guide, etc), he's still mostly treated as a competent scientist in this story whereas his characterisation later (S9-10 SG1/all SGA) shades him more into Felger's incompetent and comic relief territory.

                I do find the whole Burke/Jack piece annoying. It could have been an interesting peek at Jack's past - tight unit which fell apart - and the way Jack had his trust in that unit damaged by those events, but even then it feels like it should have been more of a S1/S2 story rather than S7 - we already know Jack had a Black Ops past; this doesn't really add anything to it.

                Sam and Jack

                The scene in her lab is lovely (so much worry and yet confidence in each other exchanged with nothing more than looks) and I absolutely adore the ending. Because from the moment Sam walks down the ramp, Jack won't stop looking at her. And the invite and her acquiescence to it is really a personal flirty one that has nothing to do with work. It's a guy asking a woman he likes to lunch not a CO asking a junior who has done a great job.
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                  Sam and Leadership

                  I think Evolution was meant to show the 'evolution' of Daniel, Jack and Sam from their original professional characterisations to what they had become.

                  Daniel from slightly scatty scientist to competent on a military level as well as a science level; Jack from dismissive and not willing to listen to more willing to admit that he might have gotten it wrong and give someone a second chance; Sam from an inexperienced junior officer to an experienced officer being given the command of a mission.

                  And I do think she got the official "command" of the mission; helped put the plan together and does make the decisions once on the ground in the pyramid with input from her Dad and Teal'c.

                  However, as much as I love Bra'tac and Jacob - and the sense that these two are friends - in Evolution, they do a good job of diminishing the idea that Sam is in command.

                  Because seriously a Major in charge of two hundred year old Jaffas who are Generals in their own right, and a three thousand year old Tok'ra symbiote living in her Dad's body and Dad who just happens to be a Major General himself. It does really stretch believability that she's in command of anything. It's basically the same thing that happens in S9/S10 when Cam is in name the leader of SG1 - how believable is it that Cam can effectively lead a Lt Col who is a veteran of the team, has more offworld experience than him and once led it, a hundred year old Jaffa who was a General and a civilian with more offworld experience than him?

                  Having said that, I do think in Evolution Jacob, Bra'tac and Teal'c respected that it was Sam's command to some degree (especially Teal'c) even though I think Jacob and Bra'tac are in essence amused by it.

                  In some ways, when Sam is leader of SG1 (which we don't get to see very much of her in action in that role offworld), I do think we see the same thing; Daniel and Teal'c respect that she's the one who makes the decisions. But it would have been better to have brought in an inexperienced 4th member of SG1 which could have highlighted Sam mentoring a junior officer and therefore really showing how she'd grown in terms of leadership.
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                    The kind of commander Sam is, though, allows for all these variables. She's not a Jack or a Hammond. We see her later in other command positions, and she leads with a much more inclusive bent--she allows for others to opine in the decisions. Jack and Hammond take others' information in, and then make the final decisions themselves.

                    This is where I think that the whole "Who influenced who" debate stalls when it comes to Sam's command style. Jack didn't influence hers as much as she does his--he helps her have the confidence to lead, but her style is deeply communicative while his morphs from totalitarianism at the beginning (and then again when he's "old" Jack in Moebius) to more cooperative at the end. There's a moment in "The First Commandment" when Sam tells him that she won't go back to the SGC when I think Jack understands that she's not going to be blindly submissive. She quietly stands her ground--and even though it doesn't work out how he wants it to, it ultimately does work out. In this, it's the same. She doesn't make all the decisions, but she is still the only active duty officer on the mission, and so, therefore, she's in command of it. The other people, I think, would have bowed to her had she put her foot down, but there was no need to because of the collaborative nature of their union.
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                      Because there were no rotten vegetables thrown at me, I decided to risk popping in again..

                      Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                      I think they handled Season 8 so much better and overall I like it more than Season 7. With Jack as the General in charge of the SGC it made sense that he wasn't always around (he had other responsibilities with other teams) and that pretty much all of his scenes were on the base. They didn't have to go to ridiculous lengths to explain his absence and in the end I felt like he was more present.
                      THIS. Once again I'm in complete agreement.

                      Originally posted by Lilac736 View Post
                      I admit season seven is my least favourite season (not counting nine and ten),
                      It's the same for me. I don't dislike season 7 (that's reserved solely for the last 2 seasons), but I find it the weakest and having the smallest number of rewatchable episodes. The problem with season 7 (and 8 for that matter) is that it's very uneven. It has a few true gems (Lost City, Grace) and a few great eps (Fallen/Homecoming, Orpheus, Revisions, Death Knell, Heroes) but the amount of real stinkers and "meh" episodes is, IMO, overwhelming.

                      I agree with Rachel re military escort and S/J shippy scenes.

                      Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                      I do find the whole Burke/Jack piece annoying. It could have been an interesting peek at Jack's past - tight unit which fell apart - and the way Jack had his trust in that unit damaged by those events, but even then it feels like it should have been more of a S1/S2 story rather than S7 - we already know Jack had a Black Ops past; this doesn't really add anything to it.
                      Exactly. As a Jack fan I was dying to learn more about his past (think about it: Jack's background is the least explored. We know more about Cam and Vala's past than about Jack) and then came this disappointment, that really tells us nothing. I think I'd prefer the writers to expand on the tidbits mentioned in the past (POW, bad parachute jump, addiction) instead.

                      Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                      I think Evolution was meant to show the 'evolution' of Daniel, Jack and Sam from their original professional characterisations to what they had become.

                      Daniel from slightly scatty scientist to competent on a military level as well as a science level; Jack from dismissive and not willing to listen to more willing to admit that he might have gotten it wrong and give someone a second chance; Sam from an inexperienced junior officer to an experienced officer being given the command of a mission.
                      Nicely put. I never thought of Evolution like this.

                      Because seriously a Major in charge of two hundred year old Jaffas who are Generals in their own right, and a three thousand year old Tok'ra symbiote living in her Dad's body and Dad who just happens to be a Major General himself. It does really stretch believability that she's in command of anything. It's basically the same thing that happens in S9/S10 when Cam is in name the leader of SG1 - how believable is it that Cam can effectively lead a Lt Col who is a veteran of the team, has more offworld experience than him and once led it, a hundred year old Jaffa who was a General and a civilian with more offworld experience than him?
                      Exactly.

                      In some ways, when Sam is leader of SG1 (which we don't get to see very much of her in action in that role offworld), I do think we see the same thing; Daniel and Teal'c respect that she's the one who makes the decisions. But it would have been better to have brought in an inexperienced 4th member of SG1 which could have highlighted Sam mentoring a junior officer and therefore really showing how she'd grown in terms of leadership.
                      It's possible I'm hypocritical here, but I don't see Sam's command of SG-1 in the same light as her "command" in Evolution. Maybe because Daniel and Teal'c were always SG-1 members and they have to follow chain of command even if they are not military themselves. Maybe because Sam commanded them in the past. Maybe because Daniel is still the least experienced (and youngest) of them all. All I know is that Sam in charge of SG-1 feels natural and right, while her commanding Bra'tac and Jacob, a Jaffa and a Tok'ra who have no obligation to follow Earth rules, feels totally unbelievable. IMHO of course.

                      Although I agree that adding an unexperienced junior officer as a 4th team member in season 8 would have been nice.
                      There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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                        Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post
                        The kind of commander Sam is, though, allows for all these variables. She's not a Jack or a Hammond. We see her later in other command positions, and she leads with a much more inclusive bent--she allows for others to opine in the decisions. Jack and Hammond take others' information in, and then make the final decisions themselves.

                        This is where I think that the whole "Who influenced who" debate stalls when it comes to Sam's command style. Jack didn't influence hers as much as she does his--he helps her have the confidence to lead, but her style is deeply communicative while his morphs from totalitarianism at the beginning (and then again when he's "old" Jack in Moebius) to more cooperative at the end. There's a moment in "The First Commandment" when Sam tells him that she won't go back to the SGC when I think Jack understands that she's not going to be blindly submissive. She quietly stands her ground--and even though it doesn't work out how he wants it to, it ultimately does work out. In this, it's the same. She doesn't make all the decisions, but she is still the only active duty officer on the mission, and so, therefore, she's in command of it. The other people, I think, would have bowed to her had she put her foot down, but there was no need to because of the collaborative nature of their union.
                        I agree.

                        Originally posted by Petra View Post
                        Because there were no rotten vegetables thrown at me, I decided to risk popping in again..
                        You won't get any from me.

                        Although I agree that adding an unexperienced junior officer as a 4th team member in season 8 would have been nice.
                        I would have liked to see more of Jennifer Hailey or maybe even Grogan (in spite of how he always seems to get shot) as a junior officer.

                        ***

                        Something occurred to me (not s/j related) in "Evolution". Given how hostile Bill Lee was toward Sam in Paradise Lost about the amount of time being devoted to finding Jack, I have to wonder if he thought about that and changed his mind about his attitude, especially given the fact it was Jack who came to rescue him and Daniel.

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                          Originally posted by Petra View Post
                          Exactly. As a Jack fan I was dying to learn more about his past (think about it: Jack's background is the least explored. We know more about Cam and Vala's past than about Jack) and then came this disappointment, that really tells us nothing. I think I'd prefer the writers to expand on the tidbits mentioned in the past (POW, bad parachute jump, addiction) instead.
                          I agree with you. We learn absolutely nothing new about Jack, and had I been expecting to this episode would have been an even bigger disappointment for me. So I understand where you're coming from here.

                          It's possible I'm hypocritical here, but I don't see Sam's command of SG-1 in the same light as her "command" in Evolution. Maybe because Daniel and Teal'c were always SG-1 members and they have to follow chain of command even if they are not military themselves. Maybe because Sam commanded them in the past. Maybe because Daniel is still the least experienced (and youngest) of them all. All I know is that Sam in charge of SG-1 feels natural and right, while her commanding Bra'tac and Jacob, a Jaffa and a Tok'ra who have no obligation to follow Earth rules, feels totally unbelievable. IMHO of course.
                          As to the bolded, Daniel is actually older than Sam. He was born on July 8, 1965 (FiaD and 1969). Sam's birthday is a bit murkier. According to her personnel file in Entity she was born on Dec. 29, 1968. In Ascension Orlin suggests that her birthday is in May. Either way, she is still younger than Daniel.

                          In terms of experience, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Sam obviously has more military experience. But her frontline experience is not much more than Daniel's really. We know she did some flying during the first Gulf War (probably patrolling the no-fly zone, but that's just my own personal opinion), she spent two years studying the gate and another year at the Pentagon after that. Daniel spent a year living off-world in a dangerous environment and he was to a certain degree a military leader there (for example he set up the guards around the gate). I give Sam the edge on experience because of her Air Force training, but even bumbling Daniel of the early years wasn't completely incompetent or incapable of taking care of himself when action was necessary.

                          Originally posted by hedwig View Post
                          Something occurred to me (not s/j related) in "Evolution". Given how hostile Bill Lee was toward Sam in Paradise Lost about the amount of time being devoted to finding Jack, I have to wonder if he thought about that and changed his mind about his attitude, especially given the fact it was Jack who came to rescue him and Daniel.
                          Very insightful. I would, however, just note that I don't think Dr. Lee wasn't willing to do everything he could to find Jack (he said he would come back with his big suitcase if the General ordered it); he just didn't think there was anything more he could do at that point with the information and resources that he had available to him.

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                            Originally posted by hedwig View Post
                            You won't get any from me.
                            Yay!

                            I would have liked to see more of Jennifer Hailey or maybe even Grogan (in spite of how he always seems to get shot) as a junior officer.
                            That's an excellent idea! Hailey would have been ideal as Sam's protege and making her a 4th team member would have resolved a number of issues:

                            1. Obviously she'd provide Sam with another military member of the team of whom Sam would have been undoubtedly in charge
                            2. As a very capable scientist she could have been the one to take care of science and technology on off-world missions, which would enable Sam to focus solely on leading (that's a complaint I hear often from those opposed to Sam's leadership; that filling the role of the scientist and the leader at the same time would be impossible)
                            3. Sam would have had another female character to interact with, something that was sorely missing after Janet's death
                            4. Another actress in opening credits! Progress for Syfy!

                            I liked Grogan too so I'd have been happy with him as well, but IMO Hailey would have worked so much better.

                            Something occurred to me (not s/j related) in "Evolution". Given how hostile Bill Lee was toward Sam in Paradise Lost about the amount of time being devoted to finding Jack, I have to wonder if he thought about that and changed his mind about his attitude, especially given the fact it was Jack who came to rescue him and Daniel.
                            Interesting. I don't recall him being against rescue attempts after that, so you are onto something, IMO.

                            Originally posted by hlndncr View Post
                            As to the bolded, Daniel is actually older than Sam. He was born on July 8, 1965 (FiaD and 1969). Sam's birthday is a bit murkier. According to her personnel file in Entity she was born on Dec. 29, 1968. In Ascension Orlin suggests that her birthday is in May. Either way, she is still younger than Daniel
                            Ah, the infamous debate about age My bad, I should have added "" when I mentioned that Daniel's younger IMO. hlndncr I don't remember if you were already a thread member when I last ranted about SG-1 dob's or not, so I'll explain again. Spoilered for those who are already familiar with my take on Sam and Jack's age.
                            Spoiler:

                            Everyone who knows me knows I tend to disregard prop canon. IMO it's wrong and self-contradictory too often to pay any attention to it, let alone take it seriously. I might be inclined to consider prop canon to be true when nobody on the show said anything that would contradict it, but that's not the case with Jack, Sam and Daniel's year of birth.

                            So, Daniel said in August in 1969 that at the time he was "4 and a half" years old and then in FIAD he said he was born in July, so there are 2 schools of thought here: he was born either in 1965 or 1964. Personally either date works for me.

                            Jack said in Brief Candle, which took place in 1997, that he was at the time 40 years old. Hence IMO he was born in 1957 and that's the date I'm going with, disregarding prop canon from Fragile Balance, because nobody ever confirmed it out loud. 20th Oct as the precise date works for me 'cos the exact date was never stated on the show, so prop canon doesn't contradict anything in this case.

                            Sam's birth on Dec. 29, 1968 is contradicted in double way: 1) by spoken canon to which I adhere, and which has her born in May. That, for me, contradicts prop canon from Entity; 2) by common sense. It's been proven numerous times that in order to achieve everything that Sam achieved before joining the SGC, she just had to be older than 29 in CotG - at least by 2 years, which would mean she was born circa 1966. My personal belief/canon has her born in 1965, simply because I always get an "older sister" vibe from her around Daniel and I can't buy her being younger than him, only older or at the very least his peer. That's why I wrote that he was the youngest.

                            I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but that's how I see it and believe me, I won't change my mind.


                            In terms of experience, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Sam obviously has more military experience. But her frontline experience is not much more than Daniel's really. We know she did some flying during the first Gulf War (probably patrolling the no-fly zone, but that's just my own personal opinion), she spent two years studying the gate and another year at the Pentagon after that. Daniel spent a year living off-world in a dangerous environment and he was to a certain degree a military leader there (for example he set up the guards around the gate). I give Sam the edge on experience because of her Air Force training, but even bumbling Daniel of the early years wasn't completely incompetent or incapable of taking care of himself when action was necessary..
                            All true. By my earlier statement I meant Sam's military training and background, which Daniel obviously lacks. I mean, if PU is to be believed, by season 8 he still couldn't even fight hand-to-hand while Sam defeated Turghan in season 1!

                            As to Daniel's alleged innocence, you are preaching to the choir here I'm of school of thought that his innocence, inexperience and naivete is BS. As you said, someone who grew up on various digs, who travelled all over the world since he was a child, who was on his own ever since he turned 18 and had to make his living by himself would be a very mature and experienced person, able to take care of himself everywhere and in any circumstances; that's for sure.

                            My apologies for taking the discussion off Sam/Jack
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                              Aka, just popping in to say I loved the asides in your review of Evolution Part 2.

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                                Spoiler:
                                Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post

                                Banner by Jasmina

                                Continued:

                                Other Characters:
                                I love the other characters in this episode. Bra’tac and Jacob in the same episode is always fun, and I love that they seem to back each other up. Rogelio Duran is fun as the guide, and I liked the Central American rebels—it was good to see bad guys here on Earth as well as out in the wilds of space.


                                Above all, though, I LOVE Enrico Colantoni as Burke. He and RDA play really well opposite each other. His reading of the character of Burke is wonderful—he’s so believable as a jaded and slightly “off” CIA operative, and I thoroughly enjoyed watching him in this episode. This character also offered a little more insight into Jack. It shows the stuff that he’s gone through that makes him who he is. The incident with Woods obviously has bothered him for years—to continue to have that kind of animosity for that long means that the shooting has never sat well with him. It also shows him with doubts—he’s normally so secure in his beliefs. But his expression while Burke is talking about the incident is the same as when Jack tells Daniel to “go ask questions” in “The Other Side”. He’s questioning what he believes, and that’s something that bothers him. Jack is the straight guy, here. This persona is one we don’t see often, and gives us a glimpse of what is to come when Jack becomes “General O’Neill”.


                                Jack and Sam:
                                Jack and Sam. They don’t appear together too much in this episode, but when they are—boy howdy! Fireworks. Longing looks and smoldering eyelines. It’s awesome that Jack expresses such trust in Sam to lead the mission without his input. This may be because her dad will be there, but I think it’s more because he’s come to believe in her ability to lead as deeply as he believes in his own. The look he gives her in her lab shows pride, and satisfaction, and respect, and she glows in it. Or that could have been the winky blinky lights behind her. But I prefer to believe it’s Jack.

                                And there’s more of that when she passes through the ‘Gate. He wants to talk to her alone—holding her back to express his pride in her abilities. And he doesn’t slobber all over the fact that her arm is in a sling—I think he’s at the point where he knows that she’ll take care of what needs to be taken care of, and he just needs to give her the chance to do it. On Sam’s part, she doesn’t whine about her injury—we can presume that she has received some medical care from somewhere, since she doesn’t immediately ask to go to the infirmary. She’s bold, and meets Jack as an equal, and we get a sense of things to come when she’s a Colonel and in charge of more operations.

                                The conversation in the lab is telling in several ways. The actors pared down their lines, here. They said less than what was on the page. I appreciate this, as what we got was a heated conversation played out around what they are actually saying. His look is really intense—and they are really communicating more in body language and eye contact than in words. I think that this shows their absolute trust in each other—they know that they’re on the same page and don’t need anything else to say it. She knows to her toes that he’s asking her to stay safe, to come back, to do what she needs to do, and he knows that she’s essentially saying the same things.


                                Summary:

                                All in all, this is one of my favorite episodes. I like this arc, and I simply adore the strength and ability that Sam shows in her assumption of command. We got to see Jacob and Bra’tac together, Daniel gets hit around a little (who doesn’t like that?) and Jack running through a jungle with a gun—well, me gusta.
                                Originally posted by Akamaimom View Post
                                I have probably missed a thousand things. And if this is completely incoherent, please excuse me. I’m writing through a veil of Nyquil.
                                My first question was going to be 'What cold meds are you taking?' but that's answered.
                                Great review, I don't know nor care about the Spanish, it's usually the science that bugs me.
                                I love Evolution both l and ll. And yes those looks across the lab bench and on Sam's return are steamy.
                                How could that woman ever doubt the feelings between them, especially when we see the alternate.
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