Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Akamaimom]

You mean this? (There was definitely some extended six watching going on. )

[IMG]http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af243/hlndncr/sg1_620_1185-1.jpg[/URL]

And really--who wouldn't? It's just so. . . watchable.
And on a non-fluffy note. . .
I've always enjoyed this episode for exactly the same reasons Petra said. It shows Jack at his best, and Sam at hers, and I like the fact that Teal'c does more than just stand around looking strong.

As for the ships thing. . .

I get why they need ships in Stargate (the real kind, not the squee! kind), but I completely agree that they did take over after a while. I missed the actual 'Gate in some episodes. But the Prometheus was the catalyst for some good adventures, and I think it's realistic to assume that Earth's powers would want to be able to get off the planet in this way, too.

And that's all I've got.

I like that episode, too.

[Cagranosalis]

Great review Petra, I think that review sums it up perfectly for me, and the Sam Jack bit is nicely summarised by Josi and illustrated by hlndncr.

Apart from that smile at the dinner invite, my favourite scene is definitely the lifting of the gate out of the sand... just adore it. Hey, oh look, my two favourite moments in that banner, how did that happen.


Just on the ships thing; I've never beena big fan of the episodes based on/aroudn the earth ships but could never really put my finger on why. Interestingly, I was watching Ethon this afternoon and it really hit home how reliant we got on them to tell stories at one point.
On the whole, I felt quite uneasy with the somewhat dramatic rise in earth capability in the last season or so. It's like we suddenly had all this technology and were the superior race and it didn't feel right (yeah, I'm a sucker for the underdog too).

[hlndncr]

Just on the ships thing; I've never beena big fan of the episodes based on/aroudn the earth ships but could never really put my finger on why. Interestingly, I was watching Ethon this afternoon and it really hit home how reliant we got on them to tell stories at one point.
On the whole, I felt quite uneasy with the somewhat dramatic rise in earth capability in the last season or so. It's like we suddenly had all this technology and were the superior race and it didn't feel right (yeah, I'm a sucker for the underdog too).

I completely agree with this. The stories started relying way too much on a ship coming to the rescue at the last moment. (And they even make fun of that convenience in I think it was Camalot?)

I didn't mind the ships so much in the early days. It seemed like a natural progression and we had to work for the advancement. We tried to refit a death glider in S4 and it didn't work. Then we tried to build our own at the beginning of S6 and it didn't really work either. Then the Prometheus didn't really work. In the beginning of S7 we were having trouble getting enough of the metals needed to build the ships. By the end of that season we had one 303 and several 302s. All of this led to interesting adventures and we still needed the Stargate, as Memento demonstrates. Then it seems like out of nowhere we get a whole intergalactic fleet, and it's bye, bye Stargate.

As for Sam and Jack, I love how they work as one here toward the end of S6, using their own strengths and enhancing one another's.

[josiane]

I completely agree with this. The stories started relying way too much on a ship coming to the rescue at the last moment. (And they even make fun of that convenience in I think it was Camalot?)

I didn't mind the ships so much in the early days. It seemed like a natural progression and we had to work for the advancement. We tried to refit a death glider in S4 and it didn't work. Then we tried to build our own at the beginning of S6 and it didn't really work either. Then the Prometheus didn't really work. In the beginning of S7 we were having trouble getting enough of the metals needed to build the ships. By the end of that season we had one 303 and several 302s. All of this led to interesting adventures and we still needed the Stargate, as Memento demonstrates. Then it seems like out of nowhere we get a whole intergalactic fleet, and it's bye, bye Stargate.

Yes! Exactly.

[Rachel500]

Memento

Generally

I admit its another episode that has really grown on me over the years but like everyone else it seems, I've always loved the raising of the Stargate moment. It's just "epic" and goose-bumpy.

Sam and Jack

For me, this episode is a bit like the Cure where we get Jonas and Teal'c off doing the investigation bit of the mission and Sam and Jack handling the diplomacy. Only whereas in Cure it was still a dynamic that the team were adjusting to in some respects, here they've got it down.

In that, Sam and Jack have become a very polished duet at the diplomacy table. She helps to smooth his rough edges; he ensures that things are said that need saying. There is just a wonderful "we work so well together" vibe. And they do team up against Ronson to ensure they get their way.

Like those who've posted before, I also kind of see this as indicative of their relationship at his point: their professional relationship is at its zenith, they're working in complete synch with each other; their personal relationship has evolved into an equally in-synch friendship, and neither of them is expecting more even though they each love the other; so they can tease and banter under the guise that it doesn't mean anything more.

Ships - The Other Kind

Yeah, me too is probably my reply here because I also think the ship thing became too much. Although for me it was much more of a problem in S9/S10/AoT era when they became far too reliant on the ships for the "save" rather than getting back through the Stargate through their own ingenuity or ability to win over alien friends. And it was a weakness in story-telling during those years that translated itself over to SGA too.

[hedwig]

Memento

Jack/Ronson
I was rather annoyed at Jack’s play for power on the Prometheus, since he was just there as an observer, and I was annoyed at his pretty blatant and rather rude behavior towards Ronson. After all, Ronson was in command - NOT Jack, and he knew it. I rather liked how Ronson appeared to roll his eyes when he told Jack his place was NOT on the bridge. I was sort of hoping Ronson would put Jack in his place for challenging him. After all, they are equal in rank, and Ronson was in charge.

Maybe it’s just my own impression, but it seems to me that commanders of spaceships frequently get diminished in favor of the “star” of the show, in this case Jack-Ronson. It happened a lot, in my opinion, with Caldwell on SGA, who frequently had run-ins with Elizabeth, Shep (and occasionally Sam), who never seemed to mind making him look a bit foolish or wrong (Sam just told him she wouldn't take no for an answer when she wanted something from him). And that just seemed inappropriate to me. To be fair, I don’t think it ever happened to Pendergast or Emerson.

S/J
In the scene on the Prometheus where the crew is pouring over Tagrean records, Jack comes into the room and stops next to Sam, then moves past her and sits in the chair next to her, facing her, where he can watch her. As he walks past her, I could swear his arm brushed ever so slightly across her back; and if it didn’t, it was so close to not make a difference.

Ashwan
I love that Robert Foxworth played Ashwan. I’m a big fan of his, and have been for many years. I pretty much love him in anything, even when he’s the bad guy.

Ashwan/Kalfas
Two sides of the coin? One seeing the positive about meeting people from earth, and the other seeing only the negative about same.

Jonas/Teal’c
Love them working together. They make a great team. With apologies (sort of) to Daniel fans, I think these two guys make an even better team than Teal’c and Daniel ever did.

Professor
I'm always a bit more surprised that when told their "god" is a false god, there isn't more shock or denial or reaction to statements like this. The Professor just seemed to take it in stride as though this was not news to him (at least that's how I saw it). Perhaps just because of his own explorations of Tagrean history, he was already leaning in that direction anyway.

Raising the gate
I LOVE the whole scene, with the digging it up and raising it and the musical score surrounding it. There’s also something to be said about all the hunky, bare-chested, sweaty guys working on the digging and raising of the gate.

[Cagranosalis]

I LOVE the whole scene, with the digging it up and raising it and the musical score surrounding it. There’s also something to be said about all the hunky, bare-chested, sweaty guys working on the digging and raising of the gate.

Yeah, that as well.
The score is what makes it though.

[Akamaimom]

Memento

Raising the gate
I LOVE the whole scene, with the digging it up and raising it and the musical score surrounding it. There’s also something to be said about all the hunky, bare-chested, sweaty guys working on the digging and raising of the gate.

Yeah, that as well.
The score is what makes it though.

Big sweaty men performing steamy physical labor to awesome music. . .

Maybe more chicks would dig football if it had a better soundtrack. . .



And on topic. This has never been my uber-favorite episode, but I do like the Sam/Jack dynamic in it. And as for Jack not treating Ronson well, I agree to a point, but I honestly don't see why Jack needs to be there at all. It's not his area of expertise. I understand it's all about the team and having them be in the episode, but it made no sense to have him there in the first place.

[Fluffy17]

By Torzy

Prophecy

The opening credits refer back to Nirrti, playing with genes and trying to create the perfect human. Then we find we’re on a planet and SG1 are being given a meal (it was actually salmon jerky they’re chewing on – yuk). Nice look between Sam & Jack when Elori (the village elder) apologises for the food. This planet was one of Ba’als, now it appears a Lord Mot has control. Jonas isn’t looking too perky, and we see him see something slightly out of focus. Chazen (another man sat at the table) is addressing Elori, telling him it’s madness to annoy Lord Mot. Back in the real world Elori is telling them about a prophecy which says strangers would come through the gate and save them from the Go’auld. At this point Jonas collapses.

Back at the SGC Jonas, Frasier & Hammond are discussing his condition, he has unusual brain activity. Jonas complains but more tests are on their way. In the briefing room all of SG1 & Hammond are discussing what to do next, should they help out? It appears Ba’al hasn’t been there for years but they decide to back to the planet. Another flashforward for Jonas – seeing Sam asking him to lunch (why Sam why Sonas? sorry shipper invasion). Sam then asks him to lunch, and they try to establish how he knew. The next scene is Frasier telling Hammond Jonas has a small spot on his MRI, she concerned for him and takes him off active duty. In his lab the other 3 of SG1 are one side and poor Jonas is the other. They try to explain but he ain’t happy. He then has another vision and he sees the Tokra coming, and they do. They announce Lord Yu has won a recent battle against Ba’al and this would give and ideal chance for Lord Mot to become a system lord. They decide to go back and help.

Jonas is discovered to have a non-cancerous tumour, Frasier wants to operate but Jonas is keen to ride it out and see what he can achieve with his now abilities. He progressively gets worse. As SG1 are just about to leave he sees Sam being seriously hurt. Hammond & Jack tell her to stay behind.

Back at the planet (having taken SG15) Jack has a heated discussion re whether the locals want help or not, Elori tells them that last time they didn’t have enough naquadah Lord Mot executed 10 of their people including his son-in-law. Yes they want help.

Back at the SGC we see Sam on a gurney seriously injured whilst doing an overhaul on the gate generators. In the infirmary Sam & Jonas discuss the whole seeing the future thing. Sam rabbits on techno speak it’s one of those if I do that will that happen conversation. It’s like Moebius – makes your head hurt.

Back on the planet, to cut a long story short the traitor Crazen releases one of those Go’auld stun balls and SG1 are captured. We then have one of those silly conversations between Jack and Mr Mot (as he calls him) or whoever is the other side of the cells. I love those. Lord Mot says he will get the GDO code, by whatever means. Elori’s daughter drugs the guards and they escape.

Sorry – back at the SGC, Jonas has collapsed and is in a critical condition. He wakes up in the infirmary and sees another vision, the SG teams are being attacked, and then in the gateroom it’s SG15’s IDC but it’s not SG15 it’s the go’auld and a bomb that will destroy the mountain, he tells Hammond then passes out and they operate.

Back on the planet – the SG teams are legging back to the gate and Chazen tells Mot they escaped – fool – Mot had planned this, he has Jaffa waiting for thm. For his pains he gets that hand/light on the head thing.

Back at the SGC, Jonas is having chunks taken out of his skull and after a few hairy moments he’s saved. The gateroom looks like it’s ready to repel an invasion when the Sg15 IDC is broadcast. Hammond decides to open the iris and the SG members stagger through. Jack says "Expecting someone else, sir?" – love that line. They hurriedly return with extra fire power to finish the job.

The episode ends with them all in the infirmary, Jonas has lost his powers, Jack asks him if fancies a trip to Vegas and although he’s asking Jonas he’s looking at Sam. Jack tells him to come back soon – they need him. And also tells him they’ve been invited back – but they’ll bring the food. Jonas & Sam discuss what happened and if there was a why. There are some really sweet looks between Sam & Jack in that scene.

Shippyness? apart from the looks at the end – nothing that I could see

A Jonas centred episode – dare I say this – if we didn’t know that Sam & Jack were an item - Sam’s quite close to Jonas in this episode. But in a colleague being concerned way of course!

[VSS]

Yeah, that as well.
The score is what makes it though.

I have always thought it bore a very striking resemblance to the barn-raising scene from Witness. Sadly, no bare-chested men there- since they're hunky Amish guys (including Harrison Ford). I actually thought it was a parody of that scene at first, or some kind of meta-narrative about the future being the same as the past.

How's everyone been?
I'm just hanging around waiting for news.

[Petra]

Maybe it’s just my own impression, but it seems to me that commanders of spaceships frequently get diminished in favor of the “star” of the show, in this case Jack-Ronson. It happened a lot, in my opinion, with Caldwell on SGA, who frequently had run-ins with Elizabeth, Shep (and occasionally Sam), who never seemed to mind making him look a bit foolish or wrong (Sam just told him she wouldn't take no for an answer when she wanted something from him). And that just seemed inappropriate to me. To be fair, I don’t think it ever happened to Pendergast or Emerson.

Oh, but it did, every single time Mitchell was on board. And I found it greatly annoying since both Pendergast and Emmerson outranked Cam and yet both still deferred to him probably to show what a hero he was

Jonas/Teal’c
Love them working together. They make a great team. With apologies (sort of) to Daniel fans, I think these two guys make an even better team than Teal’c and Daniel ever did.

I completely agree.

Professor
I'm always a bit more surprised that when told their "god" is a false god, there isn't more shock or denial or reaction to statements like this. The Professor just seemed to take it in stride as though this was not news to him (at least that's how I saw it). Perhaps just because of his own explorations of Tagrean history, he was already leaning in that direction anyway.

Or maybe he wasn't particularly interested in religious aspects and simply didn't care? I think that's another reason why I like Memento so much - it's one of those rare episodes that don't focus on religious repercussions, unlike New Ground or Icon.

And as for Jack not treating Ronson well, I agree to a point, but I honestly don't see why Jack needs to be there at all. It's not his area of expertise. I understand it's all about the team and having them be in the episode, but it made no sense to have him there in the first place.

Actually it is explained why SG-1 is there:

O'NEILL
To be honest with you Sir, I feel like we're getting in the way here.

HAMMOND
(seen on a computer screen)
SG-1 has valuable experience with both hyperspace travel and the Prometheus itself. Besides, your mission to P7X 009 shouldn't take more than a couple of hours. General Greer and I just want you there for the shake down cruise.

O'NEILL
In the unlikely event of an emergency?

HAMMOND
Something like that. Enjoy the ride Colonel. Hammond out.

Makes sense to me. Also, let's not forget that a) Jack is a pilot too and b) he's not gonna send his team alone, while he stays behind, if he can help it.

And yay, VSS is back! Welcome!!! You've been missed. *hugs* Aren't you gonna chime in?

[Akamaimom]

Actually it is explained why SG-1 is there:

O'NEILL
To be honest with you Sir, I feel like we're getting in the way here.

HAMMOND
(seen on a computer screen)
SG-1 has valuable experience with both hyperspace travel and the Prometheus itself. Besides, your mission to P7X 009 shouldn't take more than a couple of hours. General Greer and I just want you there for the shake down cruise.

O'NEILL
In the unlikely event of an emergency?

HAMMOND
Something like that. Enjoy the ride Colonel. Hammond out.

Makes sense to me. Also, let's not forget that a) Jack is a pilot too and b) he's not gonna send his team alone, while he stays behind, if he can help it.

And yay, VSS is back! Welcome!!! You've been missed. *hugs* Aren't you gonna chime in?

I get that--but let's face it. If something happens mechanically, Jack's not much use. And piloting a F-16 is very different than piloting the Prometheus. Even flying the death glider and its Taur'i version is completely different than the Prometheus. I agree that Jack would want to be with his team, but I also understand why he was bored out of his skull before the mission went terribly wrong.

[hedwig]

Oh, but it did, every single time Mitchell was on board. And I found it greatly annoying since both Pendergast and Emmerson outranked Cam and yet both still deferred to him probably to show what a hero he was

Ooops. I completely forgot about Cam. And you are completely correct there. (I amend my earlier statement to include Pendergast and Emerson.) He was always throwing around orders as though he was in charge. And to take the discussion slightly off topic, when Cam took over the Odyssey in order to rescue Sam from floating around in space, I was really steaming over that (to put it politely). How is it that he (a mere 302 pilot) suddenly knows how to use a ship as massive as the Odyssey to delicately pluck somebody out of space like that when he basically knows nothing about these big spaceships. I'm quite sure Marks (or whoever the helmsman was on that trip) was perfectly capable to doing what Cam did, and could have done it better.

Sorry about the rant. Apparently I've blocked out the memory of those episodes, since it annoys me so much about him. Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion about "Memento".

[Rachel500]

I don't really have an issue with SG1 being with the Prometheus on the official maiden voyage. They had already operated Prometheus alone on Prometheus/Unnatural Selection and Sam (and Jonas by the looks of things) had been involved with the design. Plus there's the years of offworld experience they have that the Prometheus crew at that point don't have. (And I'm sure it's in the back of the minds of those more senior that maybe if something does go wrong if SG1 is onboard maybe the Asgard will stop by again to help them.)

So I think it makes sense for SG1 to be onboard. I also think Jack, even if he wasn't making it in the most diplomatic or constructive way possible, had a point in telling Ronson that if there was an emergency than the best use of SG1 was on the bridge providing him with the advice and support they had been sent along to provide - not hidden off somewhere in the depths of the ship dealing with damage clean-up. To also give Jack credit, I think the conversation with Hammond and with Ronson gives away that Jack knows that he's causing an issue and why (strafing against another Colonel's orders because Jack doesn't have command of the mission).

As for the other occasions, I have to admit again to being more relaxed about it...more usually when SG1 are on board the Odyssey or Prometheus, they have command of the mission, the Colonels have command of the ship. So as far as mission objectives are concerned, Cam and Sam both can override the Colonel unless it puts the ship in danger in which case the Colonel can yank out the seniority/ship angle.

The major issue I have is in AoT when Cam is ostensibly in command of the Odysessy and SG1 and the mission. Which provides a whole conflict of interests which result in him being off the ship and allowing the IOA guy to build the replicator. He should have stayed on board.

[Rachel500]

Prophecy

Generally

It's not my favourite ever episode because I think while the idea of it is OK, I think Jonas being driven to prove himself to the point of death doesn't feel right at this stage of the season - maybe a few episodes before (maybe just after Metamorphosis but even then...) - maybe.

Sam and Jack

I have to admit that I love the scene where Jack effectively benches Sam from the mission after Jonas reveals his vision. Sam is so not a happy bunny but Jack is determined to protect her and he and Hammond do really gang up on her.

EDIT: *waves at VSS* Nice to see you around!