Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[EvenstarSRV]

Dare I say: Bless you? This is exactly what I was getting at, but never seem able to get my point across .

Thanks. though I think you got your point across just fine.

Well, it's only my guess that she does prefer not to have her plans change unexpectedly for a start.

And secondly, Sam handles and is used to changing plans on the spur of the moment all the time in her job so I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption for Jack in the beginning to believe that she'd be OK with an invitation at the last moment. After all Jack isn't insisting she come along, it is only an invitation so it's not as though he's imposing his will on her. It's her choice whether she accepts - and therefore changes her plans or not.

After the first few (like I said I think in Small Victories it was more of a check than another invite, and in The Curse they all get vacation effectively confirmed last moment so Jack's invite is possibly trying to get in before Sam makes plans), and by Sight Unseen, I do think Jack is choosing to do any other invitations (which we don't see) deliberately late not because he expects her to drop everything and join him but actually because it's likely she will have plans and won't. It's "safe" but incredibly confusing and frustrating for her although I don't think he sees that until Sight Unseen when she faces him with it.

That does make sense, I can definitely see that. Though then I'd need to take Jack's 'It's always something' in a more of an almost teasing tone as oppose to a bitter one, because him seriously complaining about Sam's answer when he deliberately waited until the last minute would make Jack come across as a bit too...mean almost, which I don't see him acting towards Sam.

Because as I was trying to say there is a huge difference between the first invitation and the repeats.

With the Nemesis invitation, I don't think Jack honestly knew whether Sam would enjoy fishing or not; it was all about spending time with her outside of a work environment. He even teases her with it in his incredibly vague invitation - if you would rather spend time with your generator than with me in the wilds of Minnesota or some such line. Fishing was just the non-work related/vacation thing that he was going to do and so was the thing he asked her to join him doing and encouraging her as a CO to take her vacation rather than work on stuff in the mountain. If Sam had replied in any kind of positive way to his invite with "I'd love to spend time with you, take some vacation, but actually I don't really like fishing", if he had then insisted it was fishing or nothing then him continuing to invite her fishing would be bad. But they both know, whatever reply she says openly, she turns him down not because she doesn't want to go fishing but because they can't spend time alone together without it being considered inappropriate.

I get what you're saying re Jack's reasons for asking and that does make sense to me, but the bolded part confuses me. For one I don't necessarily agree that Jack and Sam spending time alone together outside of work is inherently inappropriate, it just can't be something that becomes a regular event. As far as I understand the rules, Jack and Daniel constantly socializing alone together would be just as inappropriate as Jack and Sam doing that, but as something that happens every once in a while it's ok.

And second, if Jack does for some reason think that any time spent alone with Sam outside of work is inappropriate, why keep asking her? He's just setting both of them up for disappointment and it does nothing to make their situation any more manageable. I guess I just don't see Jack as the kind of guy who'd willingly and repeatedly inflict that kind of pain and frustration on himself, much less the woman he loves.

EDIT: Just adding that in reviewing what I've written I also think Jack chose his own activity rather than something he knew she did deliberately to lessen the importance of that first invitation. If he had chosen something he knew she'd like for certain then that might have given her the impression that it was premeditated (which it clearly was but I don't think Jack wanted her to think that so she wouldn't feel pressurised) and that he was actively trying to get her inappropriately alone - because choosing an activity she would enjoy is the act of a potential lover not a CO trying desperately to pretend that he's not in love with you and this is just a no big deal invite that she should feel free to turn down completely.

This bolded part I also don't get. I don't think suggesting an activity both people are likely to enjoy, much less planning and asking about availability in advance, inherently has romantic overtones. If Jack was asking Sam about going out for drinks or dinner or going to see a movie, then yes those are traditionally date-type activities that usually carry romantic intentions. But fishing? Definitely not a usual dating activity.

I know that as viewers we add our own symbolism/interpretations to the characters' words and actions, and I know that 'fishing' specifically has come to symbolize 'ship' for many shippers. But for the characters themselves, neither Sam or Jack strike me as people who would wrap words like that in such symbolism or who look for double-meanings behind words and actions in that way.

For me, I see the Nemesis invitation much like you do, though I think Jack's intention is mostly based in friendship at that point. Sam and Jack have formed a solid friendship by that ep to me, so I see Jack as inviting Sam to go fishing as friends with their deeper feelings as more of an undercurrent. Small Victories I see in a similar light, though I've always had the thought that Sam and Jack went fishing at least once during the week they were stranded, esp since they likely had no MREs with them.

D&C changes things for the Curse, though mostly for Jack IMO since Sam's response to his invite is rather light, partially in response to the rather light tone Jack used in asking her, and only after she leaves does he add a more serious tone to his reply to her answer. Though again, I think Jack's intentions are mainly out of friendship with a now stronger undercurrent of romantic affection.

By Sight Unseen, the fishing invite seems to have become almost a sort of inside joke between the two of them. Jack gives it already knowing Sam's response, which Sam points out to him, and they both seem rather comfortable going through those motions to me. So Jack's waiting until the last minute and repeating the fishing invite make more sense to me if its part of sort of teasing byplay they've done before.

[Rachel500]

That does make sense, I can definitely see that. Though then I'd need to take Jack's 'It's always something' in a more of an almost teasing tone as oppose to a bitter one, because him seriously complaining about Sam's answer when he deliberately waited until the last minute would make Jack come across as a bit too...mean almost, which I don't see him acting towards Sam.

For me, Jack means it in a teasing way but it comes out much more bitter than I think he intended - because although I see him consciously leaving it to the last minute intentionally and so it's unlikely she will say yes, I do think he's still deep down hopeful that one day she will actually turn around and say yes (sometimes human behaviour isn't particularly logical or consciously driven).

And I think he is taken aback by her actually confronting him on it and maybe does get a clue that what he is doing is a bit mean all things considered. Which is why in my universe he doesn't ask again after Sight Unseen and not until Threads.

I get what you're saying re Jack's reasons for asking and that does make sense to me, but the bolded part confuses me. For one I don't necessarily agree that Jack and Sam spending time alone together outside of work is inherently inappropriate, it just can't be something that becomes a regular event. As far as I understand the rules, Jack and Daniel constantly socializing alone together would be just as inappropriate as Jack and Sam doing that, but as something that happens every once in a while it's ok.

Last time I read the frat regs, a senior officer spending time alone with a junior officer is considered inappropriate and not encouraged although it would depend on the activity. One of the main reasons that the regs are there is to protect junior officers from sexual harrassment from senior. So if he takes off to the shooting range for an hour, not so inappropriate and it is work related. If he takes her off alone for a coffee break, not a problem so long as he's doing the same for the rest of the team, or they end up alone at dinner one evening when he's invited all the rest of the team, not so much a problem if it isn't a regular thing. If he takes her off on a vacation to go fishing alone for a week, definitely smacks of being inappropriate.

It is actually in the letter of the regs inappropriate for Jack and Teal'c or Jack and Daniel to go fishing alone together too but since neither Daniel nor Teal'c are military, it doesn't have the same air of possible favoritism, and Stargate seems to treat civilians as not being subject to the regs in general although that's not actually true in reality.

But there is also the question not of the regs themselves but also the gossip that could be generated from such a trip even if it was completely just friends. As unfair as it is, the fact that Sam is a woman makes a difference. Even though it is completely possible that Jack had taken Teal'c away for a romantic tryst in the Curse, most of the SGC would assume it was a buddy-buddy trip. By comparison, eyebrows would probably be raised if it was Sam.

For me, Jack is aware that his fishing invitation in Nemesis could be considered inappropriate even though he covers the favoritism angle by inviting all the team - he still asks her knowing that the others will not be able to attend. And that's why he does his whole "nothing wrong with friends, colleagues, spending time together" spiel for me. And Sam is equally aware of how it would look to others if she went off alone with her CO for a week and for me that is why she declines even though she is actually tempted.

And second, if Jack does for some reason think that any time spent alone with Sam outside of work is inappropriate, why keep asking her? He's just setting both of them up for disappointment and it does nothing to make their situation any more manageable. I guess I just don't see Jack as the kind of guy who'd willingly and repeatedly inflict that kind of pain and frustration on himself, much less the woman he loves.

Whereas I do consider Jack has a bit of masochistic streak.

And I agree I don't think they make the situation more manageable - for me, Sam looks completely startled by the one in The Curse, stutters a reply and is eager to leave the room; and she is definitely frustrated by the one in Sight Unseen.

This bolded part I also don't get. I don't think suggesting an activity both people are likely to enjoy, much less planning and asking about availability in advance, inherently has romantic overtones. If Jack was asking Sam about going out for drinks or dinner or going to see a movie, then yes those are traditionally date-type activities that usually carry romantic intentions. But fishing? Definitely not a usual dating activity.

I guess my point was this: Jack for me was aware that his inviting Sam to spend time with him alone could be construed as inappropriate. He therefore chose to cover himself by (a) inviting her to join him on something he already had planned rather than choosing something he specifically knew she would enjoy doing (which I think was how this whole discussion got started ), and (b) inviting everybody.

I know that as viewers we add our own symbolism/interpretations to the characters' words and actions, and I know that 'fishing' specifically has come to symbolize 'ship' for many shippers. But for the characters themselves, neither Sam or Jack strike me as people who would wrap words like that in such symbolism or who look for double-meanings behind words and actions in that way.

I would agree that Sam and Jack usually prefer to talk straight, but where their feelings and a possible relationship between them were concerned they can't talk about them openly. And I do think "fishing" as a word takes on a symbolism for them - after all, Sam uses it as her password.

For me, I see the Nemesis invitation much like you do... <snip for space>.

Possibly we agree more than is apparent by our debate

As a shipper, the fishing invitations are important in their relationship - for me, they're not just Jack inviting her along as a friend but a sign of his want to spend time alone with her. And Sam's refusal has nothing to do with it being fishing that's on offer, but because she's scared of getting closer to him and spending time alone with him; how it may be perceived by others.

[Akamaimom]

<snip>

As a shipper, the fishing invitations are important in their relationship - for me, they're not just Jack inviting her along as a friend but a sign of his want to spend time alone with her. And Sam's refusal has nothing to do with it being fishing that's on offer, but because she's scared of getting closer to him and spending time alone with him; how it may be perceived by others.

And I think that this might be the crux of the invites. All he is doing is letting her know that he wants to be with her. It's not necessary for her to accept--but he's still letting her know that "it" can be taken out of the "room".

Of course, I still believe that neither of them were ready for a true relationship until after "Threads", but that might just be me. But his fishing invites are gentle reminders that he's still into her.

[leiasky]

And I think that this might be the crux of the invites. All he is doing is letting her know that he wants to be with her. It's not necessary for her to accept--but he's still letting her know that "it" can be taken out of the "room".

Of course, I still believe that neither of them were ready for a true relationship until after "Threads", but that might just be me. But his fishing invites are gentle reminders that he's still into her.

I was going to say the same but you beat me to it so I'll just agree

[hedwig]

On the subject of dating vs. not dating, I'm of the opinion that going bike riding or looking through the telescope on Jack's roof would not be considered "dating". It's just something that two friends would do who have a similar interest in common. So whether it's fishing, biking, looking through a telescope, going for a hike on a weekend - all would fall into things that friends do together without being considered a "date". Sam might likely do some of those with Daniel or Teal'c and it wouldn't be considered dating. I see absolutely nothing wrong with Jack and Sam doing any of those things as friends. He did, after all, say in Nemesis "Nothing wrong with that, is there? Just a couple of co-workers, friends if you will ... " going fishing. I think asking Daniel was very spur of the moment, given he'd just stopped by the infirmary to check up on him, and jokingly asked if he wanted to go fishing, knowing Daniel couldn't go just after having surgery. I think Jack wanted company on his fishing trip and since his teammates were the closest thing to family he had, he thought inviting any one of them was a good idea.

I guess we all have differing definitions of what going fishing together or going on other outings together means in terms of a "date". My definition is that it's not unless it is specifically stated to be a date or something close to it.

It's really just those pesky "feelings" that make it seem less innocent to anybody else who might judge the situaton as wrong in some way.

[Akamaimom]

On the subject of dating vs. not dating, I'm of the opinion that going bike riding or looking through the telescope on Jack's roof would not be considered "dating". It's just something that two friends would do who have a similar interest in common. So whether it's fishing, biking, looking through a telescope, going for a hike on a weekend - all would fall into things that friends do together without being considered a "date". Sam might likely do some of those with Daniel or Teal'c and it wouldn't be considered dating. I see absolutely nothing wrong with Jack and Sam doing any of those things as friends. He did, after all, say in Nemesis "Nothing wrong with that, is there? Just a couple of co-workers, friends if you will ... " going fishing. I think asking Daniel was very spur of the moment, given he'd just stopped by the infirmary to check up on him, and jokingly asked if he wanted to go fishing, knowing Daniel couldn't go just after having surgery. I think Jack wanted company on his fishing trip and since his teammates were the closest thing to family he had, he thought inviting any one of them was a good idea.

I guess we all have differing definitions of what going fishing together or going on other outings together means in terms of a "date". My definition is that it's not unless it is specifically stated to be a date or something close to it.

It's really just those pesky "feelings" that make it seem less innocent to anybody else who might judge the situaton as wrong in some way.

Just like Sam said in "Full Circle" when asked about attending Skaara's wedding. . .

"Just a couple of coworkers, attending a wedding"--or something like that.

I would ask you all if you think that she meant the same thing that Jack means when he asks her to go fishing. Are those two moments comparative in shippy value?

[Zoser]

In regard to the last minute invitation - I think it is just a guy thing (I suppose a few are planners)
A year or so ago my husband of some thirty odd years and I went to Italy for almost two weeks. I packed and planner for weeks.
A few hours before we need to leave to catch the plane he was looking for his suitcase and asking me if he had any clean socks.

[Akamaimom]

In regard to the last minute invitation - I think it is just a guy thing (I suppose a few are planners)
A year or so ago my husband of some thirty odd years and I went to Italy for almost two weeks. I packed and planner for weeks.
A few hours before we need to leave to catch the plane he was looking for his suitcase and asking me if he had any clean socks.

And my husband and I are the opposite of that. I'm the one that's spontaneous and he's the planner.

But that point has merit--and we always must remember that men wrote the show.

I still think, though, that his invites are reminders more than anything else. "I'm thinking about you. I WILL be thinking about you."

[EvenstarSRV]

For me, Jack means it in a teasing way but it comes out much more bitter than I think he intended - because although I see him consciously leaving it to the last minute intentionally and so it's unlikely she will say yes, I do think he's still deep down hopeful that one day she will actually turn around and say yes (sometimes human behaviour isn't particularly logical or consciously driven).

And I think he is taken aback by her actually confronting him on it and maybe does get a clue that what he is doing is a bit mean all things considered. Which is why in my universe he doesn't ask again after Sight Unseen and not until Threads.

That makes sense.

It is actually in the letter of the regs inappropriate for Jack and Teal'c or Jack and Daniel to go fishing alone together too but since neither Daniel nor Teal'c are military, it doesn't have the same air of possible favoritism, and Stargate seems to treat civilians as not being subject to the regs in general although that's not actually true in reality.

Not to take this too off-topic, but this drives me absolutely nuts regarding so many discussions I've seen here on GW. Though I'd think the air of favoritism would also apply to Daniel and Teal'c, that they're being treated differently (less strictly) because they're civilians.

But there is also the question not of the regs themselves but also the gossip that could be generated from such a trip even if it was completely just friends. As unfair as it is, the fact that Sam is a woman makes a difference. Even though it is completely possible that Jack had taken Teal'c away for a romantic tryst in the Curse, most of the SGC would assume it was a buddy-buddy trip. By comparison, eyebrows would probably be raised if it was Sam.

For me, Jack is aware that his fishing invitation in Nemesis could be considered inappropriate even though he covers the favoritism angle by inviting all the team - he still asks her knowing that the others will not be able to attend. And that's why he does his whole "nothing wrong with friends, colleagues, spending time together" spiel for me. And Sam is equally aware of how it would look to others if she went off alone with her CO for a week and for me that is why she declines even though she is actually tempted.

Whereas I do consider Jack has a bit of masochistic streak.

And I agree I don't think they make the situation more manageable - for me, Sam looks completely startled by the one in The Curse, stutters a reply and is eager to leave the room; and she is definitely frustrated by the one in Sight Unseen.

I can kinda see Jack as masochistic in some ways, but not when he's dragging Sam into the pain and frustration. It's hard for me to see it as a well-meaning 'hey, I still love you' reminder because it always seems to end in frustration or disappointment for one of them. It feels a bit more like dangling an apple in front of someone who's fasting, 'I know you can't eat this yet, but I'm going to tease the possibility of it in front you anyways.' And I can't help but see that as rather mean on Jack's part.

I guess my point was this: Jack for me was aware that his inviting Sam to spend time with him alone could be construed as inappropriate. He therefore chose to cover himself by (a) inviting her to join him on something he already had planned rather than choosing something he specifically knew she would enjoy doing (which I think was how this whole discussion got started ), and (b) inviting everybody.

That makes sense too. Though I wonder why did it always have to be fishing at his cabin? There's lots of lakes around Colorado Springs, why not spend an afternoon fishing together there, removing the potential impropriety of spending a week alone together while still spending some time alone together?

I would agree that Sam and Jack usually prefer to talk straight, but where their feelings and a possible relationship between them were concerned they can't talk about them openly. And I do think "fishing" as a word takes on a symbolism for them - after all, Sam uses it as her password.

Good point about the password, though I've always felt that Sam using that password was less about Jack personally (though I can see that connection), but more about the original SG-1 team, since that fishing trip was likely the last thing they all did together before they moved on to different jobs.

Possibly we agree more than is apparent by our debate

Quite possible.

On the subject of dating vs. not dating, I'm of the opinion that going bike riding or looking through the telescope on Jack's roof would not be considered "dating". It's just something that two friends would do who have a similar interest in common. So whether it's fishing, biking, looking through a telescope, going for a hike on a weekend - all would fall into things that friends do together without being considered a "date". Sam might likely do some of those with Daniel or Teal'c and it wouldn't be considered dating. I see absolutely nothing wrong with Jack and Sam doing any of those things as friends. He did, after all, say in Nemesis "Nothing wrong with that, is there? Just a couple of co-workers, friends if you will ... " going fishing. I think asking Daniel was very spur of the moment, given he'd just stopped by the infirmary to check up on him, and jokingly asked if he wanted to go fishing, knowing Daniel couldn't go just after having surgery. I think Jack wanted company on his fishing trip and since his teammates were the closest thing to family he had, he thought inviting any one of them was a good idea.

I guess we all have differing definitions of what going fishing together or going on other outings together means in terms of a "date". My definition is that it's not unless it is specifically stated to be a date or something close to it.

It's really just those pesky "feelings" that make it seem less innocent to anybody else who might judge the situaton as wrong in some way.

Bless you, that's in essence what I was trying to say.

In regard to the last minute invitation - I think it is just a guy thing (I suppose a few are planners)
A year or so ago my husband of some thirty odd years and I went to Italy for almost two weeks. I packed and planner for weeks.
A few hours before we need to leave to catch the plane he was looking for his suitcase and asking me if he had any clean socks.

Good point. (my mom and dad act the same way)

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

Whether something is a date or not depends on whether the participants think it's a date, not whether observers do. Since Jack and Sam never said anything on screen, we don't know.

And sometimes a fishing invitation is just an invitation to go fishing. No subtext, no hidden meaning.

Seaboe

[Rachel500]

Just like Sam said in "Full Circle" when asked about attending Skaara's wedding. . .

"Just a couple of coworkers, attending a wedding"--or something like that.

I would ask you all if you think that she meant the same thing that Jack means when he asks her to go fishing. Are those two moments comparative in shippy value?

For me, one is a deliberate call back to the other (the format and wording), which is why Sam's words are shippy.

I guess in terms of ship levels, it comes back to how someone interprets the two scenes in question.

For me, that first invite in Nemesis is Jack effectively asking Sam on a date but desperately trying to pretend to himself and her that it isn't a date but just two friends spending time together which is why he does his whole "nothing wrong with two friends, etc.' spiel. It's meant to reassure himself and her that it's really not a date (even though to me it so is a date for Jack on a subconscious level if not a conscious one).

In comparison, when Jack checks Sam would be invited to the wedding in reply to Skaara's "are you bringing someone" I don't think he consciously or subconsciously thinks of it as being a date at all until Skaara asks for clarification in his "so you would be attending together" line. And that's when it hits Jack that he could have been misconstrued. Sam's amused clarification is meant to reassure him that Skaara meant, and she interpreted it as "like two friends attending a wedding together" so it's not a date and they're OK.

For me, Full Circle on its own is less shippy than Nemesis because Jack really never once meant to imply that he and Sam attending together would be a date whereas in Nemesis he was very consciously aware of the implication (because deep down that's what he wanted it to be).

However, given that I believe Full Circle was also meant to be a nod back to Nemesis, I think gives it a shippy boost and because it perhaps suggests that there is more going on under the surface words - something along the lines of "do they protest too much perhaps that it is friends." (Especially given at Nemesis in my universe Sam was in love with Jack but unaware of his feelings for her, and Jack was in love with Sam and perhaps starting to suspect her feeling for her him; here in Full Circle in my universe Sam is aware that she's still in love with Jack but thinks he only wants friendship and Jack is aware that he's in love with Sam but trying just to be friends. So for me, while Jack didn't mean for the wedding thing to come out as a date in Full Circle, again it could be a suggestion of his subconscious desire that it was).

[Rachel500]

Not to take this too off-topic, but this drives me absolutely nuts regarding so many discussions I've seen here on GW. Though I'd think the air of favoritism would also apply to Daniel and Teal'c, that they're being treated differently (less strictly) because they're civilians.

But Jack can't promote Daniel and Teal'c over Sam which is really what the favoritism air is about as far as the regs is concerned. But on a general level of "playing favorites" and making one of the team feel disadvantaged I agree. In fact I think in some of the eary Aftershocks fics I've had Sam and Jack both acknowledge the difference in the way Jack treats her compared to the others but grudingly accept that it has to be that way because they're military. And you know it's interesting because Jack does screw up in Sight Unseen on the favoritism bit because Jonas clearly feels slighted (even if he understands why) at not being invited.

I can kinda see Jack as masochistic in some ways, but not when he's dragging Sam into the pain and frustration. It's hard for me to see it as a well-meaning 'hey, I still love you' reminder because it always seems to end in frustration or disappointment for one of them. It feels a bit more like dangling an apple in front of someone who's fasting, 'I know you can't eat this yet, but I'm going to tease the possibility of it in front you anyways.' And I can't help but see that as rather mean on Jack's part.

I think Small Victories and The Curse are meant as a "hey I still love you" thing and are received by Sam as such (more happily in SV than TC) but that's it.

For me somewhere after Entity and up to Sight Unseen any other fishing invites have been issued as a "we're friends and I don't want you to feel left out so I'm inviting you" by Jack on a conscious level with a subsconsious "I still love you and hope you might say yes" vibe, and they've been received by Sam as "I'm confused; are you only inviting me as a friend or do you still feel something for me? And maybe you don't really want to invite me at all as you're only inviting me when you know I'm doing something else."

Good point about the password, though I've always felt that Sam using that password was less about Jack personally (though I can see that connection), but more about the original SG-1 team, since that fishing trip was likely the last thing they all did together before they moved on to different jobs.

Whereas I've always felt that "fishing" = Jack. And when you add in that the picture Sam chooses in Atlantis is of only her and Jack fishing not the whole team, I think this also retrospectively gives weight to the idea that fishing=Jack.

[EvenstarSRV]

But Jack can't promote Daniel and Teal'c over Sam which is really what the favoritism air is about as far as the regs is concerned. But on a general level of "playing favorites" and making one of the team feel disadvantaged I agree. In fact I think in some of the eary Aftershocks fics I've had Sam and Jack both acknowledge the difference in the way Jack treats her compared to the others but grudingly accept that it has to be that way because they're military. And you know it's interesting because Jack does screw up in Sight Unseen on the favoritism bit because Jonas clearly feels slighted (even if he understands why) at not being invited.

I wasn't really thinking in terms of promotion, but to me Jack not following AF rules as strictly with Daniel and Teal'c compared to Sam is treating them with favoritism, especially if he doesn't treat all civilians with the same leeway (which given the way he acted towards Rothman or Felger, he didn't). I know this is where dramatic license comes into on the show, it just bugs me when it perpetuates this idea that civilians don't have to follow any of the military's rules, they may not be members of the military but they're still employees of the military. They can't be court martialed for breaking their rules but they'd be most likely penalized or fired instead.

I think Small Victories and The Curse are meant as a "hey I still love you" thing and are received by Sam as such (more happily in SV than TC) but that's it.

For me somewhere after Entity and up to Sight Unseen any other fishing invites have been issued as a "we're friends and I don't want you to feel left out so I'm inviting you" by Jack on a conscious level with a subsconsious "I still love you and hope you might say yes" vibe, and they've been received by Sam as "I'm confused; are you only inviting me as a friend or do you still feel something for me? And maybe you don't really want to invite me at all as you're only inviting me when you know I'm doing something else."

And I think this is the crux of our differing views on the invites, because IMHO I don't think Jack and Sam ever doubted that the other loved them (yes, even post Grace and Affinity). To me they chose to prioritize and focus on their friendship while deferring the possibility of a romantic relationship, so even though they don't visible act on those feelings, or start relationships with other people, I still believe that they felt them. And that's why Jack's fishing invites don't make sense to me if meant seriously as 'dates', because I don't think Sam needed them as a reminder that Jack loved her or that Jack needed Sam to say yes to be reminded that she loved him.

Whereas I've always felt that "fishing" = Jack. And when you add in that the picture Sam chooses in Atlantis is of only her and Jack fishing not the whole team, I think this also retrospectively gives weight to the idea that fishing=Jack.

Heh, that's a good point, I'd forgotten about that picture in her Atlantis office.

[hlndncr]

Anyone seen Toomi around? It's been a while, and I think it's her turn.

[Rachel500]

<snip on very interesting but if I replied it would be so off topic on treatment of civilians versus military re regs in Stargate>

And I think this is the crux of our differing views on the invites, because IMHO I don't think Jack and Sam ever doubted that the other loved them (yes, even post Grace and Affinity). To me they chose to prioritize and focus on their friendship while deferring the possibility of a romantic relationship, so even though they don't visible act on those feelings, or start relationships with other people, I still believe that they felt them. And that's why Jack's fishing invites don't make sense to me if meant seriously as 'dates', because I don't think Sam needed them as a reminder that Jack loved her or that Jack needed Sam to say yes to be reminded that she loved him.

Yep. I think you've pinpointed the crux of our differences.

See I agree with the bolded. But. (You knew it was coming ) For me, from Entity onwards Sam becomes less and less certain that Jack loves her romantically; that maybe he only loves her as a friend (this is clearly highlighted in the Grace conversations in her conversation with Hallucination!Jack). And I think Jack himself while suspecting every so often that Sam's feelings for him were still there occasionally felt and thought that perhaps she had moved on.

Which is why the Sight Unseen fishing invite for me is so screwed up because I see it as Jack consciously inviting her as a friend not to mess with her head but sincerely and to ensure she doesn't feel left out if he's invited others such as Teal'c, but leaving it to the last minute because it's safer that way (and yet, subconsciously still inviting her because its a hint of more which he deep, deep down hopes she picks up on and says yes to because that would mean she loves him); and Sam consciously wondering what the hell he means by it; if he's truly inviting her as a friend then why not when she's available and if it's more (and she deep down she hopes it is a sign that he loves her still), again why invite her when she's not available - and maybe he doesn't really want her to go fishing with him at all not even as a friend? Hence the frustration she shows. I don't think Jack does it to be deliberately mean to her and like I said before I think the fact that she shows her frustration here means he doesn't invite her again so to avoid hurting her.

Thanks for the debate. I've enjoyed it.

EDIT: hlndncr - haven't seen Toomi for a while - sorry!