Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Cagranosalis]

Fantastic review Josi! Really, i think you covered everything I love about this episode.

In particular, of course, this refers to Jack’s most dearly-held point of honour - to leave no man behind. But it’s not just a case of Kanan feeling guilty about abandoning a team-mate - crucially for the ship perspective, he abandoned a woman he loved and that loved him back. As Jonas put it, “[he] had to be motivated by something profound enough to not only risk his life but also the life of his host.” Essentially, Kanan chose the possibility of death over leaving Shayla (and BTW, totally no coincidence that she bears quite a striking resemblance to Sam, IMO ), which to me is a big hint about what particular bit of Jack’s mind influenced Kanan’s actions here, as Jack too once chose to face death rather than leave the woman he loved behind. It actually occurred to me on this rewatch that Abyss has quite a few similarities to Divide & Conquer in terms of the structure of having to figure out the emotional motivations behind actions that are distilled into emotionless mission reports, and also the threat of having to reveal those emotions - when Jack admits to Daniel that before long he will “give Ba’al what he wants. [He]’ll tell her, that he loved her. He came back for her. He wanted to save her.” Seems rather close to Jack’s own experience to me, and I can’t help but think that Jack is remembering that very moment himself in the way RDA delivers those lines. And for Sam’s part, I think she is reminded to - her absolute certainty when telling Hammond always makes me think of that too.

That's a really profound observation. Ka'nan's actions towards Shayla are the antithesis of Jack's actions towards Sam. I've always seen the importantance of the "love" aspect of this but never really acknowledged the call back there, thanks.

If I have one criticism about this episode, it’s that, as someone said a little while ago, there’s just not enough fallout from it, really. Jack goes through this unbelievable trauma, and then next episode it’s back to usual. I know that that is characteristic of SG1 in general, but somehow it feels more conspicuous with an episode like this one. All we do get is Jack dialling the sarcasm up to eleven every time he encounters Ba’al again, right up to Continuum, to show how this Goa’uld gets to him in a way no other quite does.

That's always bugged me too. The thing here is, even if Jack had not gone through all the trauma of being tortured (to death and back, no less) by Ba'al, just having the symbiote implanted in him is traumatic enough for Jack - who, remember, actually has a fairly deep abhorrance at the thought.
factor in Ba'al's torture and it's incredible he can even function these days. Then again, TVLand and all that.
There were times after this when Ba'al was featured that I got annoyed with the way his character was dumbed down into an almost parody of himself. He was, right at the time of this episode, the most evil and menacing of goa'ulds; he sure scared me a lot more than Anubis who was merely some ethereal threat that hadn't really been rounded out enough for me to appreciate how important or menacing he would become. But Ba'al, in one episode, was truely evil and horryfying . He could have had a great deal more potential as a more personal nemesis for Jack/the SGC in general, which would have been interesting.


On the ship front, Sam so does squeeze his hand there at the end. Yes she does.

[josiane]

That's always bugged me too. The thing here is, even if Jack had not gone through all the trauma of being tortured (to death and back, no less) by Ba'al, just having the symbiote implanted in him is traumatic enough for Jack - who, remember, actually has a fairly deep abhorrance at the thought.
factor in Ba'al's torture and it's incredible he can even function these days. Then again, TVLand and all that.
There were times after this when Ba'al was featured that I got annoyed with the way his character was dumbed down into an almost parody of himself. He was, right at the time of this episode, the most evil and menacing of goa'ulds; he sure scared me a lot more than Anubis who was merely some ethereal threat that hadn't really been rounded out enough for me to appreciate how important or menacing he would become. But Ba'al, in one episode, was truely evil and horryfying . He could have had a great deal more potential as a more personal nemesis for Jack/the SGC in general, which would have been interesting.

Totally with you there. Ba'al is terrifying here, but you're exactly right that he almost becomes a parody of himself by the end, particularly in S9 & 10 where he's bouncing around on Earth with goodness alone knows how many clones Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing And I agree with you that he's more frightening than Anubis at this point - I think because Ba'al's threat is personal. He hurts Jack. Anubis just threatens to wipe out the planet But seriously, the big scale threat never has the emotional impact that something like this does, where we are watching a character we love be tortured and essentially broken before our eyes. It's chilling.

On the ship front, Sam so does squeeze his hand there at the end. Yes she does.

Heck yeah! She so does

[Rachel500]

Abyss

Great review, Josi.

Generally

This is absolutely my favourite episode of Stargate ever across all shows, all seasons. While I adore WoO for the combination of light comedy with a sprinkle of dark tragedy, here we have the opposite of that episode, a dark drama with a sprinkle of light comedy in the Daniel/Jack banter.

I'm going to talk about Daniel and the team generally first, move onto Jack and then discuss Sam/Jack.

For me, between Meridian and Abyss, Daniel has embraced his Ascension. Just as his friends have dealt with his loss and moved on, he's dealt with losing them and has embraced his new existence. Yet, in a very telling way the mere fact that he shows up at all gives away that he hasn't quite been able to "give up his burden" and abandon his ties completely as he should have done.

I do think some of Daniel's keenness for Jack to Ascend is based in his own loneliness and simply missing Jack and the team, along with the stronger motivation that Daniel at the beginning cannot see another way out for Jack; it's Ascension or death (which bizarrely just reminded me of Urgo and the "it's me or death, death or me" line). Anyway, there is the slight nod that Daniel eventually figures out another way to help Jack covertly through helping the team back at the SGC come up with a plan and giving them all the credit.

Some people argue that to assume Daniel did interfere takes away from Teal'c coming up with the plan to go to Yu but I don't think one has to take away from the other. SG1 was always about teamwork. We see that in the way Sam, Jonas and Teal'c do work together; to prevent the Tok'ra Thoran from leaving (one of my favourite scenes with Hammond facing off against Thoran as he complains he's being prevented from going) and to figure out why Kanan went after Shallan - indeed they do *do* most of the legwork of coming up with a plan for finding Jack which given they have no idea at the start is a huge achievement. For me, I think Teal'c comes up with the Yu plan but it's Daniel whispering in his ear that encourages him to take it to Hammond.

Hence, for me, Abyss is the beginning of Daniel truly beginning to see how restrictive his Ascension is; he Ascended to make a difference, because he felt he could do more as an Ascended being and yet here we see he cannot. It begins his questioning of Ascension in a long slow slide that will eventually climax with the events at Abydos and Anubis.

Of course what is great is what is revealed in Daniel's discussions with Jack about Jack himself...

Jack

Let me deal with the lack of fallout first. So annoying...and yet so Stargate in this era. But things do get swept under the carpet - Jack should have naquadah left over in his blood and be able to sense Goa'uld, use the technology, etc in the same way as Kendra and Vala, but nothing is ever made of this plot wise. For me, I always believe that Jack was telling Ba'al the truth; he essentially had no conscious knowledge of the blending beyond that it happened and then he was on Ba'al's planet and a captive. I really do think that it is Ba'al's torture that brought out what little true blending between symbiote and host there was.

I liked the Jack facing life/death theme in Stargate, because ultimately Jack is always choosing to sacrifice himself and his team always save him, and I think this is really Jack's Stargate story: a hero who would sacrifice himself and the team who save him. I think some of the underlying reason for Jack's sacrificing behaviour is rooted in the key quote for me which Josi picked out: Jack's revelation that he does not believe himself to be essentially "worthy."

I think some of that is professional (the distasteful things he refers to in Cor-ai), some of it I think is personal (what happened with his marriage and the death of his son). I've always believed that Jack views the Stargate programme as a kind of personal redemption on one level to try and make up for his past, and on another, a punishing penance for past sins.

Now, I am in no way saying that Jack is fully conscious of this motivation (perhaps its an idling thought here and there) or that his sacrificing nature doesn't also have something to do with his strong sense of duty and honour. But Lost City for me confirms that Jack consciously counts himself as the least important - he won't let any of the team take the head-sucky thing because he's only another soldier, replaceable whereas Sam and Daniel are brilliant and their brains are needed.

In many ways, for me, it's partially this deep, fundamental lack of worth that keeps Jack from pursuing a relationship with Sam along with the myriad of other more conscious reasons, and a second deep fear of the pain of loss. Deep down, I don't believe Jack at this point believes he's worthy of finding love again and does truly believe Sam can do better than him.

Sam and Jack

I love Josi's note that in many ways Abyss mirrors D&C with mission reports that state nothing and the hidden love Kanan had for Shallan. And how Jack is ultimately placed in the same position of having to hide a love to protect a woman which is exactly where he is with Sam at that point for me: Jack's hiding his love for Sam in order to protect her. And yet, because of the torture, Jack is on the verge of breaking and he knows the only way to save the woman Kanan loved is to die...again, mirroring his words in D&C, he would rather die than lose Sam. In many ways, I can see Jack in the confusion of the memories that Ba'al is forcing him to deal with, getting more and more confused between whether he is protecting Shallan or whether he is protecting Sam in his head...

I too do not believe it was a coincidence that Shallan and Sam are very similar.

What I do love is Sam's unwavering determination once again to get him back - and how well she fundamentally knows him. She really does work out where Jack is from how Kanan would react to Jack's code, and moreover she understands how Kanan could be motivated by love to go back for Shallan - because Jack wouldn't leave Sam; because Sam wouldn't leave Jack either.

The end scene is probably one of the few annoyances I have with the episode. While I don't believe Sam comes across quite as cold as some fanfic would portray her as being, I do believe that it is one of the few scenes that just isn't played right given the underlying dynamic between her and Jack. AT is rumoured to have said that she didn't know what exactly Jack had been through when she played the scene so maybe that's part of it.

My kind of mental fix for this is that Sam is scared by almost losing him, relieved to have him home but trying desperately to make sure he doesn't know how much she's scared and relieved so tries to act cool; tries to show nothing more than a caring, friendliness (which is how I characterise her actions at the end there). But when Jack's asleep she sneaks back in and watches over him.

[Rachel500]

<snip>factor in Ba'al's torture and it's incredible he can even function these days. Then again, TVLand and all that.
There were times after this when Ba'al was featured that I got annoyed with the way his character was dumbed down into an almost parody of himself. He was, right at the time of this episode, the most evil and menacing of goa'ulds; he sure scared me a lot more than Anubis who was merely some ethereal threat that hadn't really been rounded out enough for me to appreciate how important or menacing he would become. But Ba'al, in one episode, was truely evil and horryfying . He could have had a great deal more potential as a more personal nemesis for Jack/the SGC in general, which would have been interesting.


On the ship front, Sam so does squeeze his hand there at the end. Yes she does.

Ba'al - oh, yes. At this point, he was the most evil and terrifying of the Goa'uld. It's funny but the way Claudia plays Qetesh in Continuum - so absolutely straight and just completely ruthless - reminds me of how Ba'al is played in Abyss.

I think the decline of Ba'al started to happen when it was revealed he was really Anubis's toady even if he did ally with Earth to get rid of him eventually (for his own reasons to gain power). And I agree I think the S9/S10 clones thing so ruined Ba'al and really the character deserved better.

[leiasky]

Frozen
I think Sam believes Jack agreed out of duty - the symbiote had important intelligence. I think Jack agreed because it was Sam, and he didn't want to leave her.

Trying desperately to catch up but I wanted to add a bit to the above, which I completely agree with. Jack has come a long way from when he's first introduced. He wanted to die. He'd lost his son and presumably his wife.

6 years later we see him want to live. For a woman (who looks a damn lot like Sara) or for duty? Who knows. But he wants it.

[leiasky]

OK, now I feel like a bad shipper because I'm the only one who can't see the nod. But I've watched it over and over again, very carefully, in slo mo. *sighs* I guess I'm not that connected to Jack, and I'll just have to trust Sam like everyone else.

I have a difficult time seeing any sort of nod as well. But there is something and it's likely in his eyes. The two of them communicate with their eyes and with a look so often that, even if he didn't nod, there was something when he looked at her.

[hlndncr]

Surprisingly, I really have very little to say about Abyss.

That was an absolutely wonderful review Josi, almost poetic.

I agree with everything that has been said.

I was watching Zero Hour the other day and Col. Reynolds (who I love) was describing the circumstances of Abyss to Jack's new aid. He showed more trauma over the experience than Jack ever did. But I did like that the show at least acknowledged what a profound experience that was and how it should have colored Jack's reactions (although I don't feel it was ever really played).

That's all I got. Oh, I love Rachel's fix for the end of the episode. Sam definitely came back.

[Zoser]

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I almost cannot say enough about how awesome this episode is. For sheer quality I think it’s one of the finest single episodes of television of any show, ever - the writing, acting, direction, look and feel are just incredible, and huge amounts of credit have to go to everyone involved, particularly RDA for arguably his best performance ever, and Martin Wood for compelling, claustrophobic direction. It’s also one of Stargate’s darkest hours - really, the concept is just horrific, and it’s testament to what an amazing job everyone did with it that it genuinely moves me to tears each and every time I watch it. The first time I saw it, I sat absolutely riveted, with my jaw to the floor most of the way through, and I can probably count on one hand the number of times that has happened to me.

There is just so much to praise here - the structure, which (much like in Window of Opportunity) creates a real feeling of being trapped; the visual style and effects, with all the cool changes of gravity and the angles that that allows Martin to play with; Cliff Simon as Ba’al, who is never again as chilling as he is here; RDA, as I mentioned before, managing to convey deep vulnerability and gut-wrenching pain and despair through the ever-increasing cracks in his wise-cracking facade; the Jack-Daniel banter, which lightens the episode even as it explores the very real possibility of Jack dying and worse; and wrapping round all the edges, the awesome teaminess of Sam, Teal’c, Jonas and Hammond back at the SGC, who just rock with their absolute determination to find Jack and bring him home.

Essentially though, this episode is an exploration of Jack’s character and psyche. I mentioned briefly in the discussion about Frozen that Jack’s story is full of moments where he has to choose between living and dying - obviously, this goes right back to the beginning of his Stargate story and the events of the first Abydos mission, and of course he is only in this position because he made yet another choice to live when Sam pleaded with him to take the Tok’ra symbiote. Here though there is a twist on the options available to him - Daniel comes to him offering ascension, and spends a good part of the episode trying to convince Jack that life isn’t really an option any more; that his only way out other than dying is to follow Daniel to a higher plane of existence. I have to say I always feel slightly uncomfortable with Daniel’s attitude here - it’s almost cult-like, trying to ‘convert’ Jack - but I think it’s an important way of showing how the Daniel of season 6 is not the Daniel we knew and loved before. He’s speaking from his ascended position, and his perspective has altered. I think Daniel’s pushing of the benefits of ascension actually is a clever way of alienating him in the view of the audience, who would naturally be inclined to fall into their familiar way of looking at him. This time, you're not rooting for Daniel. Jack’s having none of it though, and his resistance to the idea of ascending is entirely in character - for Jack, the idea of being aware but essentially helpless, not able to do anything to protect the people he cares about, is abhorrent; he’d choose dying over that. Jack tells Daniel that explicitly, but it’s the exchange immediately after that that I think is really telling:



I think those two lines reveal an awful lot about both men’s characters. Daniel, because he genuinely believes that it is somehow better to follow the Ancients’ rules and see the bigger picture, work for the greater good, even if that means someone he cares about dies; and Jack because he doesn’t argue with Daniel’s idea of what makes a better man, just argues that he isn’t one. Jack has a very strong moral sense about protecting people and sacrificing himself, if need be, but instead, here, he argues that he is not a better man, and thus reveals his real insecurity - Jack doesn’t believe he is good. He believes he is right, a lot of the time, and he believes in doing the right thing and the good thing, but he still believes he is not a good man deep down underneath it all, as if all the penance and good deeds in the galaxy isn’t enough to wash away some of the distasteful things he has done in the past.

In the end of course, Jack’s other choice does come back, and there’s such a flash of hope and excitement when Daniel tells him that Sam and Teal’c and Jonas figured out how to give him a chance. He begged Daniel to end it for him, but only when he thought there was no chance of getting out of there - on the one hand, he gave up and chose death over ascension, but then again also by hanging in there and refusing to take the way out that Daniel was offering him, he gave the others the longest time he could for them to rescue him. And I think this is why at the end Daniel is so certain that Jack is going to be OK - because Jack wants to live.

The other aspect of Jack that is explored in this episode is his capacity for and attitude to love, and this is what has significance from a shippy point of view. It is of course explicitly stated that it is Jack’s moral code that lands in in the situation in the first place - as Jonas and Sam state when they figure it out:



In particular, of course, this refers to Jack’s most dearly-held point of honour - to leave no man behind. But it’s not just a case of Kanan feeling guilty about abandoning a team-mate - crucially for the ship perspective, he abandoned a woman he loved and that loved him back. As Jonas put it, “[he] had to be motivated by something profound enough to not only risk his life but also the life of his host.” Essentially, Kanan chose the possibility of death over leaving Shayla (and BTW, totally no coincidence that she bears quite a striking resemblance to Sam, IMO ), which to me is a big hint about what particular bit of Jack’s mind influenced Kanan’s actions here, as Jack too once chose to face death rather than leave the woman he loved behind. It actually occurred to me on this rewatch that Abyss has quite a few similarities to Divide & Conquer in terms of the structure of having to figure out the emotional motivations behind actions that are distilled into emotionless mission reports, and also the threat of having to reveal those emotions - when Jack admits to Daniel that before long he will “give Ba’al what he wants. [He]’ll tell her, that he loved her. He came back for her. He wanted to save her.” Seems rather close to Jack’s own experience to me, and I can’t help but think that Jack is remembering that very moment himself in the way RDA delivers those lines. And for Sam’s part, I think she is reminded to - her absolute certainty when telling Hammond always makes me think of that too.

If I have one criticism about this episode, it’s that, as someone said a little while ago, there’s just not enough fallout from it, really. Jack goes through this unbelievable trauma, and then next episode it’s back to usual. I know that that is characteristic of SG1 in general, but somehow it feels more conspicuous with an episode like this one. All we do get is Jack dialling the sarcasm up to eleven every time he encounters Ba’al again, right up to Continuum, to show how this Goa’uld gets to him in a way no other quite does. I do love the end scene though - from the very start with Jack regaining consciousness against a bright light, mimicking the sarcophagus (and I’m sure totally fooling everyone on first watching - it certainly did me, and I was absolutely gutted for an instant that his escape attempt had failed and it wasn’t over after all), to the way his team are there with him, Daniel’s words of reassurance, and Sam’s moment right at the end when bringing him the water - so caring and tender, almost, and for an episode which is all about Jack’s potential for life and love, it is an entirely fitting ending.

Excellent, Josiane and you have cover everything I would have said.
I think Abyss is my favorite episode. Jack understands how Kanan feels because he loves Carter that much - he would rather die than lose her. And so here he would rather die than betray Shayla to Ba'al torture.
I could take of leave Apophis he never scared me but Ba'al was my favorite bad guy - he was true evil and a natty dresser!!

[Zoser]

Ba'al - oh, yes. At this point, he was the most evil and terrifying of the Goa'uld. It's funny but the way Claudia plays Qetesh in Continuum - so absolutely straight and just completely ruthless - reminds me of how Ba'al is played in Abyss.

I think the decline of Ba'al started to happen when it was revealed he was really Anubis's toady even if he did ally with Earth to get rid of him eventually (for his own reasons to gain power). And I agree I think the S9/S10 clones thing so ruined Ba'al and really the character deserved better.

Since in my reality 9 & 10 do not exist Ba'al is still the evil conniving Goa'uld he always was. Even as Anubis's toady he sought to destroy him and regain control even if it meant dealing with O'Neill whom he knows in his little twisted heart he is superior to.
(now I know what I said above about certain non-existing seasons... if the Ba'al clone were a tad more independent and spent more time trying to kill each other it would have been more interesting!)

[Cagranosalis]

Excellent, Josiane and you have cover everything I would have said.
I think Abyss is my favorite episode. Jack understands how Kanan feels because he loves Carter that much - he would rather die than lose her. And so here he would rather die than betray Shayla to Ba'al torture.
I could take of leave Apophis he never scared me but Ba'al was my favorite bad guy - he was true evil and a natty dresser!!

Regarding the bolded, I was just coming in here to point something out / ask a question around this. I watched this again last night (I have a new TV; I needed an excuse to try it out ) It occured to me that, while Jack was very insistent that he didn't remember anything that Kanan left behind, I have to wonder if I fact he did. I mean, later on it's obvious he does but I wonder if he knew all along ans was trying to protect Shayla from the start>

In the conversation with Daniel where he says "I'll tell him" Jack's not worried about his death here - at this point he's practically begging Daniel to make sure he doesn't come back - but he's worried about what would happen to Shayla if he spills the beans. Did he know all along? Did he realise he (Kanan) was motivated by love and honour from the start?

Also, we know the symbiote left Jack's body but later in dialogue its mentioned that they (Ba'al goons) never found it/him. Now since later on it seems symbiotes can't survive for long outside a host I assume he died shortly after but that kind of makes me wonder why bother to exit the host unless there was another suitable candidate nearby?


Just tossing those thoughts out there.

Since in my reality 9 & 10 do not exist Ba'al is still the evil conniving Goa'uld he always was. Even as Anubis's toady he sought to destroy him and regain control even if it meant dealing with O'Neill whom he knows in his little twisted heart he is superior to.
(now I know what I said above about certain non-existing seasons... if the Ba'al clone were a tad more independent and spent more time trying to kill each other it would have been more interesting!)

Good point and yes, it would have.

[hlndncr]

In the conversation with Daniel where he says "I'll tell him" Jack's not worried about his death here - at this point he's practically begging Daniel to make sure he doesn't come back - but he's worried about what would happen to Shayla if he spills the beans. Did he know all along? Did he realise he (Kanan) was motivated by love and honour from the start?

I'm of the opinion that Jack was very confused and really didn't know what was going on. I think he may even have been confusing Shallan and Carter in his mind. Jack's first instinct is to protect, especially the people he loves. He would have fallen back on those instints when he is unsure of what's really going on. I'm not sure what exactly he thinks he would tell Baal. He just knows he has to act to protect.

Also, we know the symbiote left Jack's body but later in dialogue its mentioned that they (Ba'al goons) never found it/him. Now since later on it seems symbiotes can't survive for long outside a host I assume he died shortly after but that kind of makes me wonder why bother to exit the host unless there was another suitable candidate nearby?

I've often wondered about this myself. I think having the symbiote leave was essentially just a plot convenience; it needed to be Jack in the cell. But in my own head I explain it as further demonstrating the very different character of Kanan and the overall philosophy of the Tok'ra. We know the Tok'ra would die rather than be captured (see for example Deadman Switch), and Kanan would certainly have information that he would not want falling into Baal's hands. So to a certain extent his actions are self-sacrificing; he's acting for the greater good of the Tok'ra. I don't think he did it because he believed there was another host near at hand. I'm convinced he's dead.

But I also think he shows some really poor judgment. He leaves Shallan in the first place because he puts his mission ahead of her. But then he goes back in part because he realizes Jack would never leave anyone (and especially not the woman he loves) behind. But he isn't capable of following through. In the end he makes the same choice twice. Leave to (possibly) save himself and (maybe) to protect the other Tok'ra and let Shallan (and in the second instance, Jack also) deal with the consequences of his actions.

My two cents.

[Cagranosalis]

I'm of the opinion that Jack was very confused and really didn't know what was going on. I think he may even have been confusing Shallan and Carter in his mind. Jack's first instinct is to protect, especially the people he loves. He would have fallen back on those instints when he is unsure of what's really going on. I'm not sure what exactly he thinks he would tell Baal. He just knows he has to act to protect.

I like the ship you think.

I've often wondered about this myself. I think having the symbiote leave was essentially just a plot convenience; it needed to be Jack in the cell. But in my own head I explain it as further demonstrating the very different character of Kanan and the overall philosophy of the Tok'ra. We know the Tok'ra would die rather than be captured (see for example Deadman Switch), and Kanan would certainly have information that he would not want falling into Baal's hands. So to a certain extent his actions are self-sacrificing; he's acting for the greater good of the Tok'ra. I don't think he did it because he believed there was another host near at hand. I'm convinced he's dead.

But I also think he shows some really poor judgment. He leaves Shallan in the first place because he puts his mission ahead of her. But then he goes back in part because he realizes Jack would never leave anyone (and especially not the woman he loves) behind. But he isn't capable of following through. In the end he makes the same choice twice. Leave to (possibly) save himself and (maybe) to protect the other Tok'ra and let Shallan (and in the second instance, Jack also) deal with the consequences of his actions.

My two cents.

Hmm, interesting. I never actually thought he did go to another host but could never really work out why he left Jack to be captured. Perhaps he hoped / intended to find a new host quickly so he could rescue them both? As you say though, it was a plot necessity so I suppose I'm looking too deeply at it.

[Rachel500]

<snip> It occured to me that, while Jack was very insistent that he didn't remember anything that Kanan left behind, I have to wonder if I fact he did. I mean, later on it's obvious he does but I wonder if he knew all along and was trying to protect Shayla from the start>

In the conversation with Daniel where he says "I'll tell him" Jack's not worried about his death here - at this point he's practically begging Daniel to make sure he doesn't come back - but he's worried about what would happen to Shayla if he spills the beans. Did he know all along? Did he realise he (Kanan) was motivated by love and honour from the start?

I don't think Jack did know at the start.

My Aftershock for Frozen is pretty much how I think it happened: I have Kanan promise to effectively keep Jack asleep to reduce the trauma of the blending for his reluctant host. But even with Jack asleep, Kanan while trying to mentally keep himself to himself, has access to Jack's memories and while I don't think he goes looking for them per se, I do think the exposure from the glimpses he gets before Jack is asleep and perhaps through the dreams Jack experiences, influences Kanan to go back for Shallan - something he had wanted to do but before his blending with Jack would not have allowed himself to do.

But as far as Jack is aware, he goes through the blending but then goes to sleep and doesn't know anything until he wakes up on Ba'al's planet.

However, Ba'al's torture is effective. As Ba'al states, Jack and Kanan blended and therefore Jack does know what Kanan knows, it's just buried in his subconscious, and as Kanan's last thoughts are about rescuing Shallan those, and why he came back for her, are likely to be closer to the surface.

So I do think after torture after torture, Jack remembers: he remembers Kanan's reasons, he remembers Shallan and I think he even feels some sympathy for what Kanan was attempting to do: rescue the woman he loved. And I do think Jack has some residual love for Shallan from Kanan just as Sam felt some residual love for Martouf from Jolinar. And because of that and Jack's own belief that Shallan was an innocent, he protects her and doesn't tell Ba'al.

I also agree that by the end, I think Jack is probably very confused and disoriented to a degree during the torture; his own feelings for Sam and Kanan's emotions for Shallan all getting mixed up together.

Also, we know the symbiote left Jack's body but later in dialogue its mentioned that they (Ba'al goons) never found it/him. Now since later on it seems symbiotes can't survive for long outside a host I assume he died shortly after but that kind of makes me wonder why bother to exit the host unless there was another suitable candidate nearby?


<snip>.

I agree with hlndncr - I think Kanan thought it would be best to die leaving Jack with only vague memories and thoughts that couldn't endanger the Tok'ra too much and hoped wouldn't endanger Shallan - I think he also counted on the fact that if Jack did remember something of Shallan from Kanan that Jack would feel duty bound to protect her as an innocent in all of it.

As for Ba'al's goons not finding Kanan - maybe he did find another host but I think it's unlikely - although you know plot bunny...

[Petra]

Hmm, interesting. I never actually thought he did go to another host but could never really work out why he left Jack to be captured. Perhaps he hoped / intended to find a new host quickly so he could rescue them both? As you say though, it was a plot necessity so I suppose I'm looking too deeply at it.

I mostly agree with hlndncr, but not quite. I always assumed Kanaan left Jack b/c he was afraid that he , Kanan, wouldn't be able to withstand the torture. As a Tok'ra operative he must have known what, uh, techniques Baal liked to employ during interrogations of his prisoners. The fact that the Tok'ra were so eager to commit suicide the moment they were captured, like hlndncr mentioned, tells me they weren't trained to resist torture. In that case when Jack/Kanan were caught Kanan had 2 choices: stay with Jack and risk betraying dozens of Tok'ra in vague hope he'd have the chance to save 3 lives or cut his losses; sacrifice the lives of Jack and Shallan who probably didn't know much so couldn't harm the Tok'ra even if Baal broke them and kill himself ensuring safety of his people. No wonder he chose the latter.

Apart from that I don't have anything to add. josi covered in her wonderful review everything I would have said.

[Zoser]

I think Kanan bailed on Jack to protect the Tok'ra (and possible Shayla).