Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Cagranosalis]

I'm inclined to agree, mostly. I know where it came from and I admit that there are some episodes in which Jack was acting dumb and sometimes the writers focused too much on the comical aspect of his character.

Like in "Serpent's Venom" when Jacob states that he needs Daniel and Sam's expertise but takes Jack along only because "he's always fun to have around". Don't get me wrong, I love Jacob and Jack's antics in the ep but this particular line always rubs me up the wrong way, because...really? You have a smart and experienced Black Ops operative/pilot/team leader at your disposal and you take him on your undercover, dangerous mission because he's entertaining and not because of his skills? Doesn't it send the wrong message?

In terms of avoiding such goofs seasons 5 & 6 were much better than season 4, IMO, but then came season 7 and the rest of the show. At some point I made a list of all episodes in which Jack became dumb!Jack (don't remember on which thread though) and long story short, my conclusion was that Jack's dumbness was proportional to RDA's screentime: the less RDA the more dumb!Jack. It's like TPTB decided that he was the only one capable of bringing humour to any ep so all his scenes were used to cram as many one-liners into them as humanly possible. Which in turn turned him into cosmic!giddy!Jack who never knew anything and was always joking around which somehow morphed (to my horror) into classical!Jack in the fandom's collective mind. Little fact that got forgotten somewhere along the line was that in each ep RDA had more screentime in Jack wasn't spouting one-liners non-stop and was regaining his smarts (case in point: Zero Hour, Full Alert). But fans tend to ignore it, for whatever reasons.

Now that I've ranted, I'm off to watch Menace

But such a great rant it is too and, yes, I think you have a very valid point on that. I fell in love with Jack because he was all those things not just funny... well, ok initially I fell in love with Jack because he was played by RDA and I fancied the pants off him but that's not the point... umm, where was I? Yes, the Jack I loved was the Jack that is smart and a great leader and all sorts of cool.

On the whole Serpent's Venom line, see, I never took that line as face value; I just took it as it was a given that SG-1 came as a team and, while Jacob needed Sam and Daniel's expertise specifically in that instance, he'd pretty much assumed Jack came as part of it too (after all, he did tag along several times before and since when his presence wasn't impertative to what was going on), I think this is just one of those things that Jack said because he and Jacob have this thing where they like to slightly antagonise each other. So Jack throws out that "what about me" just to play on that and Jacob's reply is just his way of being a bit sarcastic back at him - good natured of course. I think they could have played that scene without the line but it's just a beat of humour. The line that I cringe over is Jack's "Mayday, we are sooo going down..." in Exodous because I can't bear the whiny, schoolgirly way it's delivered in such a serious situation. Now that, to me, does paint Jack to be the cliched Dumb!Jack.


Menace: nice review Fluffy. I haven't had a chance to rewatch it yet to add my thoughts and, shamefully, this is one I haven't seen for a long while but I will do so (if only to play "where's Martin" ) and come back at it. From memory I do recall that Jack and Sam send much of the episode on the same page and at odds to Daniel at times - one scene in particular that she back up Jack which was a little unexpected.

[hedwig]

sarcastic back at him - good natured of course. I think they could have played that scene without the line but it's just a beat of humour. The line that I cringe over is Jack's "Mayday, we are sooo going down..." in Exodous because I can't bear the whiny, schoolgirly way it's delivered in such a serious situation. Now that, to me, does paint Jack to be the cliched Dumb!Jack.

Now, see, I never saw that bit as being whiny or schoolgirly ... I always saw it as Jack being really, really annoyed and exasperated at how pigheaded and stubborn Teal'c was that he would endanger both he and Jack in his overwhelming desire to get the hatak vessel that had attacked them. I guess this is one of those instances where people see and hear things differently from others.

[hlndncr]

Nice Job Toomi!

[spoilers] Daniel jumps in to say that on Earth, we do things differently... but do we? That first mission through the Stargate was a suicide mission for Jack. He was willing to go, save his planet, and die in the process. True, he was in a very dark place in his life, but does it make it much different? Jack reacts to this, but does it shake him? Does he remember, or go back to that place in his mind where he once too went on a mission he didn't plan to survive?

This is an interesting point that had not crossed my mind before. While I think for Jack that first mission was definitely a suicide mission and he knew it, his motivation was very different from Kytano's followers. He wasn't doing it based on any desire for glory (in this life or the next) or a fanatic devotion to any person or causes. His reason was escape from the pain he felt over the loss of his son.

On the other hand, his superior officers were perfectly willing to sacrifice someone (and a person they knew to be in a mentally fragile state) to accomplish their goals. And it is interesting the lengths they are willing to go to (sabotaging the bomb even so Jack can't back out) when they don't even know they are facing an enemy. (Hammond's actions in CotG are more understandable because at least in that instance the goa'uld had come through the gate and initiated hostilities.) It make me wonder, if they had not convinced Jack to do it who would they have gotten and what method would they have used to convince him? Patrotism and fanatacism can be divided by a very fine line in these instances.

Is there much here? It is a Teal'c based episode, but there's a few glances, between them. I love how Jack is completely confident in Carter's ability to show off the weapons, and her own talent.

I'll take what I can get in the ship department at this point. And I do think there are some really sweet glances that I enjoyed watching. And I do consider the weapons demo quite shippy. Jack is just so proud to show her off (and it does feel like it's her and not just the P90 he's showing off) and Sam is so happy to make him proud, and bring the Jaffa down a peg.

One reason I think that is such a great scene is because it shows such a wonderful evolution in their relationship. At first Jack saw Sam as an annoying scientist. Now he sees her as a brilliant scientist and a competent soldier (his equal). One problem I've encountered with some guys is that they like a woman who is capable and successful as long as it is not "their thing" or "what they do." For some reason that intimedates them and makes them feel like they are somehow dimished. Jack isn't like that.

And I love what it says about him that he loves everything about her. That she's pretty, that she's smart. That she's capable. That she's tough. A truly good relationship will bring out the best in you and you will want to be the best for that person. I think Jack and Sam have that, and I see it here in this scene.

I have to admit I love The Warrior. As I mentioned a few times before I like Jaffa episodes in general, but this is by far my favourite. Maybe because, despite being Teal'c centred, it also focuses a great deal on Jack (very smart Jack to that), maybe because it touches on some great, universal themes like fanaticism, trust vs faith, respect towards other cultures and limits of said respect, maybe because it features great guest stars and cool, novative effects and camera work...in any case it's one of my favourite episodes of the season and with each viewing I notice something new. Great job TPTB.

Up until, well now, I wasn't much of a fan of this episode. I liked the few Jack/Sam moments, but I mostly found it tedious. But you inspired me to look at is with new eyes. I tried to focus on the deeper character motivations and some of the more ambiguous moral issues and I did find myself appreciating it in a way I never had before. This episode really does have some deep and interesting layers. So, thank you.

What's also interesting for me, Daniel and Sam don't take sides here. It's almost like the situation in Scorched Earth: Jack vs Teal'c, with Daniel and Sam playing silent Teal'c from SE. They follow Jack's orders but seem to respect and emphatise with Teal'c..look at how annoyed/impatient Sam seems when Jack makes the last desperate effort to stop Teal'c at the Gate.

I disagree that Sam and Daniel didn't take sides or that Sam was annoyed or impatient with Jack. In fact I think they were both very much behind Jack on this one. They clearly deferred to him, which in itself was somewhat unusal because Daniel is always rushing in trying to smooth feathers. But Daniel doesn't do that so much here because I think he sees what Jack is seeing and it concerns him too. Even as I think about the framing the visual I get from the ep is Daniel and Sam standing firmly behind Jack as he challenges Kytano and tries to bring Teal'c to his senses.

One thing this episode lacks, IMO, is some explanation if the methods Ke'tano used (fight for leadership, suicide raids etc.) are really part of the Jaffa culture or simply something he made up and it worked in revolutionary fervor.

While he doens't outright know (or suspect) Katano of being a Goa'uld, he recognises that his tactics and method of leadership is exactly the same.

What Cags said. . That explains Kytano's methods for me. He's a goa'uld and unfortunately, the Jaffa have been conditioned for thousands of years to respond to that kind of leadership. We see that in the world today. We can topple government and regimes, and putting new leadership doesn't change the civic culture and it leaves people vulerable to the reinstitution of tyranny from a different source but in similar form.

On the whole Serpent's Venom line, see, I never took that line as face value; . . . I think this is just one of those things that Jack said because he and Jacob have this thing where they like to slightly antagonise each other. So Jack throws out that "what about me" just to play on that and Jacob's reply is just his way of being a bit sarcastic back at him - good natured of course.

Now, see, I never saw that bit as being whiny or schoolgirly ... I always saw it as Jack being really, really annoyed and exasperated at how pigheaded and stubborn Teal'c was that he would endanger both he and Jack in his overwhelming desire to get the hatak vessel that had attacked them. I guess this is one of those instances where people see and hear things differently from others.

I agree with both. Jack and Jacob just have a thing going where they like to raz each other. And I hear exasperation in Jack's voice in Exodus.

For the most part, I don't really see dumb Jack. I know he's smart; so I'm able to view the "dumb" things he does through that lense. For me the sarcasm is subterfuge and/or a coping mechanism and I enjoy it.

That being said, there is one scene in Entity that drives me nuts. When Jack is bouncing back and forth watching the camera follow him in the control room while everyone else is trying to figure out how to reestablish control of the base after the entity has infected all the systems. It is just so over top. ARGGH!

[Petra]

Now, see, I never saw that bit as being whiny or schoolgirly ... I always saw it as Jack being really, really annoyed and exasperated at how pigheaded and stubborn Teal'c was that he would endanger both he and Jack in his overwhelming desire to get the hatak vessel that had attacked them. I guess this is one of those instances where people see and hear things differently from others.

Ditto. I see this scene exactly like hedwig and it never bothered me.

On the other hand, his superior officers were perfectly willing to sacrifice someone (and a person they knew to be in a mentally fragile state) to accomplish their goals. And it is interesting the lengths they are willing to go to (sabotaging the bomb even so Jack can't back out) when they don't even know they are facing an enemy. (Hammond's actions in CotG are more understandable because at least in that instance the goa'uld had come through the gate and initiated hostilities.) It make me wonder, if they had not convinced Jack to do it who would they have gotten and what method would they have used to convince him? Patrotism and fanatacism can be divided by a very fine line in these instances.

That's a very good point.

On a related note, I wonder how West knew Jack? Had he been his CO during Jack's Special/Black Ops days? That would explain a lot, but it was never explained, was it?

Up until, well now, I wasn't much of a fan of this episode. I liked the few Jack/Sam moments, but I mostly found it tedious. But you inspired me to look at is with new eyes. I tried to focus on the deeper character motivations and some of the more ambiguous moral issues and I did find myself appreciating it in a way I never had before. This episode really does have some deep and interesting layers. So, thank you.

I'm glad my post made you enjoy the episode more. That's the biggest compliment one could get on such forum, I think.

I disagree that Sam and Daniel didn't take sides or that Sam was annoyed or impatient with Jack. In fact I think they were both very much behind Jack on this one. They clearly deferred to him, which in itself was somewhat unusal because Daniel is always rushing in trying to smooth feathers. But Daniel doesn't do that so much here because I think he sees what Jack is seeing and it concerns him too. Even as I think about the framing the visual I get from the ep is Daniel and Sam standing firmly behind Jack as he challenges Kytano and tries to bring Teal'c to his senses.

I think you are onto something with framing - IMO it was cleverly used to accentuate the differences between Tau'ri and the Jaffa - but I stand by what I wrote.

What Cags said. . That explains Kytano's methods for me. He's a goa'uld and unfortunately, the Jaffa have been conditioned for thousands of years to respond to that kind of leadership. We see that in the world today. We can topple government and regimes, and putting new leadership doesn't change the civic culture and it leaves people vulerable to the reinstitution of tyranny from a different source but in similar form.

That's another good point, but not quite what I had in mind. I think The Warrior would be even better if it focused more on Jaffa's culture, not just Ke'tano's ways. I don't know how to explain myself better.

That being said, there is one scene in Entity that drives me nuts. When Jack is bouncing back and forth watching the camera follow him in the control room while everyone else is trying to figure out how to reestablish control of the base after the entity has infected all the systems. It is just so over top. ARGGH!

That's another scene I have absolutely no problem with. Yeah, Jack's acting goofy, but well within limits, IMO.

I love this thread and how we all have different interpretations and POVs and still get along.

[Zoser]

Great review Toomi, *hugs* for the computer troubles.

While this at first seems to be a Teal'c/Jaffa episode, there's a lot here going on about the relationship between Jack and teal'c. This is the first (possibly only) time we ever see them antagonistic towards each other, and there's a real sense that Teal'c may actually end up leaving SG-1 at this point.
It's very unsual to see Teal'c and Bra'tac being this naive (perhaps it speaks of how badly they want this).

It occurred to me that perhaps Teal'c and Bra'tac were relieved that someone else would shoulder the burden of leading this rebellion.

Yep, me too I love that scene and I love the slow push in on Sam and Jack, framing them and then cutting away to Daniel which seems to emphasise them..

[Cagranosalis]

Yes, that's the one Zoser, ta.

On a related note, I wonder how West knew Jack? Had he been his CO during Jack's Special/Black Ops days? That would explain a lot, but it was never explained, was it?

No that's never explained. I presume there's some connection there because the point is made quite specifically why Jack was chosen for that mission.

his thread and how we all have different interpretations and POVs and still get along.

Yes, don't we just! It's great to see everyone's views.



On Menace - I finally got around to viewing. Nothing Sam/Jack related that stood out (that hasn't already been mentioned) but the commentary revealed an interesting aspect at the end of the interaction between Daniel and Jack. To me it seems like Daniel - for possibly the first time, has lost patience with the whole military thing and, specifically with Jack and his shoot-first attitude. This despite the fact that you can clearly see Jack really had no other option here but to shoot Reece. In the commentary it's stated that the initial reaction of Jack is much more antagonistic (there's no apology for what he did at all ) but that the actors felt that, as friends, there would be some regret from Jack that he'd done something that had so upset Daniel and destroyed possibly their only chance of finding out more about the replicators. In hindsight this is all quite interesting given the eventual direction the replicator story took and how it affected Daniel and Sam. I actually like that the played that scene the way they did but I also like the antagonism which seems entirely right when you consider that, a few episodes down, Daniel ascends. His weariness with the whole set up of his life is very clear here.

[Nynaeve506]

No that's never explained. I presume there's some connection there because the point is made quite specifically why Jack was chosen for that mission.

Hitting Colonel, Jack probably has a lot of friends in high places since getting past the Lt. Colonel rank requires a little more politicking (Lt. Col is the most common rank to retire at for career military - or so my dad says, he retired as a Lt. Col). Also, it's possible West was a commander of Jack's at some point since West was probably a Colonel back when Jack was in the early ranks.

:: goes back to lurking because her brain can't think much more than three sentences at any given time anymore ::

[Cagranosalis]

Banner byTreknik

Synopsis
SG-1 must enlist the help of Grieves and Kershaw – two ex NID operatives on death row for treason – to fix a device called The Sentinel, which has guarded the people of Latona for centuries. Unknowingly, Grieves and Kershaw disabled the device when they accidently killed the caretaker of it, not realising he was an integral part of it. In the end, Kershaw is killed by invading jaffa and Grieves does the right thing and takes the place of the caretaker, thus restoring the device to full capability and eliminating the invading goa’uld.



Favourite Line

Kershaw: ”I feel better just knowing there’s an archaeologist watching our backs.”
Daniel (pulling a knife out of his pocket and looking at it with confusion): ”yeah, can you tell me which end the bullets go in again.
(do you think Jack’s been rubbing off on him a bit? )


Favourite Scene

The tense scene at the forcefield at the end when Grieves does the right thing, proving that, after all, he’s rellay a good guy after all.


Review

I’ll start by getting my usual season 5/6 Blatant Jack Thunking out the way now. Because there’s not a scene in this episode when he doesn’t look completely scrummy. Yes, even when he’s being whumped and painsticked by a bunch of baddies. In fact, especially then.

Right that over, back to your regularly scheduled review...

I always love it when SG-1 revisits “mistakes” of the past. Although in this case not their mistake. It’s natural to think the whole NID off world stealing technology storyline was put to bed with Shades of Grey but here we are again, revisiting the same line and once again reinforcing the fact that, although there are plenty of benevolent (and some might suggest gullible) races out there with technologies we could just help ourselves to, the consequences of that always come back to bite us in the backside in the end. This does reopen the whole debate about the morality of the SGC though. So far they’ve helped a lot of people but really, after 5 years, when you look at what they have for their efforts then it’s not much. All the goa’ulds they have killed are just replaced by another bigger and badder than before and all they seem to be doing is running around trying to right some wrongs. It must feel very frustrating and it’s no wonder that the NID adopted the “technology at all costs” approach. Does the end justify the means after all? In the end, we see that really, Grieves and Kershaw aren’t quite the bad guys we originally think of them as – and thus the actions of the NID look far less evil and we’re back into the grey area again. Of course, in the end it all comes good because the SGC does get payback for its efforts and for the benevolent approach it adopts in dealing with alien cultures.

I love the way they inserted the characters of Kershaw and Grieves into this episode and then made it look like they were there in Shades of Grey when, actually, they were never in that episode. I really liked both their characters and was kind of sad to see their character’s storylines come to a conclusion like that.

Is it just me or is there some antagonism in that first briefing room scene? Not just between Jack and Sam (who shoots Jack a couple of distinctly odd looks) but also with Daniel a bit. Just the whole body language of everyone and the fact they’re not facing/looking at each other. It seems like everyone all in a bit of a bad temper for no real apparent reason.

I never could work out quite why Jack and Grogan break off from the others and head into the city. The only conceivable reason I can think is to meet up with Marul and have that discussion so we find out about the caretaker etc. from his perspective and to help the flow of the storytelling. But then, I can’t help feeling that’s something that could have easily been explained in the briefing or on the hoof but then I guess the real reason they do that is to personalise the danger and allow that Jack and Grogan can be captured and dragged to the Sentinel and we can have that wonderfully tense scene at the end with Jack one side of a forcefield, Sam the other, and one of them facing certain death... oh no wait did I get the wrong episode?


Sam/Jack

Well, at first it seems like there’s not much to go on (they are framed and sitting the same side in the briefing room at the start but almost as soon as we’re on planet is all business and then they are off doing their own things in separate places. However, then comes the end; Jack’s captured with Grogan and they’re marched into the Sentinel and Sam and the others are behind the forceshield and Jack orders her not to lower it knowing that the Jaffa will kill him if they don’t. Ok so it’s not quite the same and in Divide and Conquer but I can’t help seeing the parallels and it does make me smile and wonder if TPTB did that deliberately or not. And just look at the confliction on Sam’s face. She’s fully prepared to follow Jack’s order but at what personal cost to herself. And I also love the silent communication between them – all of them actually – when Grieves finally decides to do the right thing and Sam communicates to Jack just why she’s disobeying his direct order. He understands they have something up their sleeves but, because he’s not there when they realise they need the human element, he does not know what to expect or what that is. But he trusts them and, specifically Sam to do the right thing. In an episode that has so little Sam/Jack interaction this is just a gem of a moment that really stands out.

[Toomi]

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3.../image2156.jpg

That's an awesome shot. Thanks. It just frames them perfectly (ignoring Daniel in the corner, his nose in a book....)

On Menace - I finally got around to viewing. Nothing Sam/Jack related that stood out (that hasn't already been mentioned) but the commentary revealed an interesting aspect at the end of the interaction between Daniel and Jack. To me it seems lik Daniel - for possibly the first time, has lost patience with the whole military thing and, specifically with Jack and his shoot-first attitude. This despite the fact that you can clearly see Jack really had no other option here but to shoot Reece. In the commentary it's stated that the initial reaction of Jack is much more antagonistic (there's no apology for what he did at all ) but that the actors felt that, as friends, there would be some regret from Jack that he'd done something that had so upset Daniel and destroyed possibly their only chance of finding out more about the replicators. In hindsight this is all quite interesting given the eventual direction the replicator story took and how it affected Daniel and Sam. I actually like that the played that scene the way they did but I also like the antagonism which seems entirely right when you consider that, a few episodes down, Daniel ascends. His weariness with the whole set up of his life is very clear here.

I found the commentary at the end there was really good in giving some insight (but then I'm a sucker for commentaries). Other than that, Menace was an interesting episode giving us the background of how replicators came to be. I really don't have much else to add that someone else hasn't already said

Favourite Line

Kershaw: ”I feel better just knowing there’s an archaeologist watching our backs.”
Daniel (pulling a knife out of his pocket and looking at it with confusion): ”yeah, can you tell me which end the bullets go in again.
(do you think Jack’s been rubbing off on him a bit? )

One of my favourite Daniel lines!!!! Off to go watch the episode now....

ON a side note

Spoiler:

I'm having a heck of a time dealing with quotes, or even posting. When I go to the advanced posting (if I have a large post or if I have multiple quotes) and click my curser in the box to begin, the whole thing goes nuts. I can't highlight sections of typing and delete as the screen jumps all over the place. If I'm actively typing it doesn't jump all around, but the moment I stop it begins again. It's taking me ages just to even get to the bottom of the quote by scrolling down as it won't just go all the way down. I'm not sure what's going on, it's not doing this at any other forum or website I'm on. Is anyone else having issues or am I doing something funky?

[Toomi]

I’ll start by getting my usual season 5/6 Blatant Jack Thunking out the way now. Because there’s not a scene in this episode when he doesn’t look completely scrummy. Yes, even when he’s being whumped and painsticked by a bunch of baddies. In fact, especially then.

He does look delightfully scrumptious in this one!!! I love the dark grey pants/toque thing he had going at the beginning...

Is it just me or is there some antagonism in that first briefing room scene? Not just between Jack and Sam (who shoots Jack a couple of distinctly odd looks) but also with Daniel a bit. Just the whole body language of everyone and the fact they’re not facing/looking at each other. It seems like everyone all in a bit of a bad temper for no real apparent reason.

Not just you. Some of the looks that Sam shoots Jack look like they are almost exasperation. Even Daniel's awkward cough after Teal'c comments is uncomfortable. Now could we put this into the difference of opinions from the previous episode? Theoreticaly it's been 2 weeks since the previous episode ended so I'm not sure that they would go that long without figuring out their differences.

I love the actor playing Marul. He is so expressionate. You can see the pure innocence on his face, and the absolute shock when he finds out he was lied too, or the dismay and confusion when the Jaffa explain to him that his people will start dying.

The end scene is cool (though I can do without the torture stick bits watching the light come out of Jack's mouth and ears.... it's almost too freaky) and as Cags said, kinda mirrors Divide and Conquor. Where he yells at Sam to blow it up, the look on his face is very similar. I'm not sure other than tha bit how much S/J there is in this one, as there seems to be a fair amount of underlying tension between them all leading into this.

[Rachel500]

The Sentinel

Generally

I actually really liked this episode back when first watching and agree with Cags - it's really cool how they inserted Kershaw and Grieves into the events of Shades of Grey. Also: I love that they brought Grogan back and kept him alive!!

There's a lot going on in this episode underneath the surface plot of "NID screwed something up - we have to go fix it taking a couple of bad guys with us."

It's actually quite a cool follow-up to Shades of Grey.

I think the tension in the briefing scene is really down to the events of SOG being brought back-up again with remembered hurts, (and the recent events of Menace not particularly helping in regards Daniel and Jack), and it is something which Jack I think would prefer not to remember at all. SG1 managed to move past his "act" but he'd rather not go there again.

First, the Grieves and Daniel by-play is an allusion back to the Jack and Daniel by-play in SOG. Grieves *is* the real version of the persona Jack was playing back then. Someone who truly believes that the military way is the best; that stealing the technology was the way to go; any means to get the job done. He truly believes in the mission - and has nothing but scorn for someone like Daniel. That Daniel not only helps break the shield pattern (proving that SG1 is so much better than the Team NID) but works out the language and the need for the human element kind of give Daniel an overall "WIN" here.

By contrast to Grieves and to the act he put on in SOG, we see Jack being the man he has become thanks to Daniel and the rest of SG1: one who trusts his team absolutely to send them off to get the job done while he goes to TALK to the leader of the world in the hopes tlalking with him with help. It also contrasts with the previous episode and Jack barrelling in to shoot Reese - here we see that there is more to Jack than just shooting the bad guys.

I always think that this episode is also a great lead-up to Meridian. Daniel effectively is going to be accused by the Kelownans for doing something similar to what the NID team did actually do here (ie interfere with the native technology and kill people). Jack won't stand for that; he won't stand for Daniel being considered to be the same as Grieves and Kershaw.

While I thnk Kershaw redeemed herself fully and proved that deep down she wasn't a bad guy, I'm not certain Grieves is the same. He would have kept the secret of the man they killed which was a vital part of the clue and while in the end he gives himself to the Sentinel, as they and especially Grieves, don't really know that Grieves will die in being the human factor when he does it, for me it's not a conscious decision to sacrifice his own life and redeem himself. But interestingly, I do think this whole examination of the NID believed they were the good guys, that the SGC is the one making the bad choices, is an interesting one to take.

Sam and Jack

The main scene is definitely the one at the forceshield. Lovely, lovely moment of trust between them - AT and RDA do such a brilliant job of saying things with their eyes alone.

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

I love the actor playing Marul. He is so expressionate. You can see the pure innocence on his face, and the absolute shock when he finds out he was lied too, or the dismay and confusion when the Jaffa explain to him that his people will start dying.

Let me guess--you were born after 1970.

That's Henry Gibson (who died last year a lot younger than you'd think). He became famous back in the 60s thanks to Rowan & Martin's Laugh In (along with Goldie Hawn and a number of others).

He was also in an episode of MacGyver (two, actually, but one was just a cameo).

Seaboe

[Fluffy17]

The Sentinell

I've watched this episode a lot this week - couldn't be bothered to change DVD's!!!

Anyway, yep I love it too, no death of Grogan, bad guys turning good, Jack looking scrumptious, Sam being told she was in charge, the trust/look between them when Jack's being tortured. The scene in the briefing room is tense but what with SOG and the fact that they appear to have lost a SG team as well that's hardly surprising.

Everyone sums it up all so eloquently and I can only muster 3 lines.....

[Cagranosalis]

Let me guess--you were born after 1970.

That's Henry Gibson (who died last year a lot younger than you'd think). He became famous back in the 60s thanks to Rowan & Martin's Laugh In (along with Goldie Hawn and a number of others).

He was also in an episode of MacGyver (two, actually, but one was just a cameo).

Seaboe

I mostly remember him in the role of the leader of the Illinios Nazis.

I think the tension in the briefing scene is really down to the events of SOG being brought back-up again with remembered hurts, (and the recent events of Menace not particularly helping in regards Daniel and Jack), and it is something which Jack I think would prefer not to remember at all. SG1 managed to move past his "act" but he'd rather not go there again.

Good point. I never thought of that.

While I thnk Kershaw redeemed herself fully and proved that deep down she wasn't a bad guy, I'm not certain Grieves is the same. He would have kept the secret of the man they killed which was a vital part of the clue and while in the end he gives himself to the Sentinel, as they and especially Grieves, don't really know that Grieves will die in being the human factor when he does it, for me it's not a conscious decision to sacrifice his own life and redeem himself. But interestingly, I do think this whole examination of the NID believed they were the good guys, that the SGC is the one making the bad choices, is an interesting one to take.

Ah see I never thought Grieves dies there at the end; I interpreted that as him becoming integral to the machine, replacing the previous caretaker which, as we saw, was a perfectly living and corporeal person (albiet long lived) capable of being hurt and killed. I assumed that caretaker was the same one who has been looking after the sentinel since it was built, but maybe I am wrong on that. It's never fully explined how that aspect works but it seems the people on the planet have no idea either so it must be something that's not required new people to take over since it was set up. Why Grieves vanishes, I don't know. But I do see this as a kind of redemption for him. Either way he's committing himself to either death or eternity bound to defend the planet he placed in such danger through his actions, which is pretty noble really. Then again, what choices did he have? If they hadn't activated the sentinel and followed Jack's order not to lower the forceshield then they would have run out of food and had to eventually and they'd already worked out that it required the human element to work so they had the solution. Someone was going to have to do it sooner or later.

The Sentinell

The scene in the briefing room is tense but what with SOG and the fact that they appear to have lost a SG team as well that's hardly surprising.

And I never thought of that either. They do have a missing team at stake to be worrying about. I just always felt the tension was more personal somehow but maybe not so. Glad I'm not the only one who sees it though.

[Petra]

RL is extremely busy so this summer I won’t spend as much time on the forum as I’d like to and more often than not I’ll be playing catch-up. Like now.

Menace

I don’t like this episode as much as fandom in general appears to and I can’t quite figure out why. It’s probably a combination of Jack and Daniel’s weird behavior and lack of Teal’c (does he even have 5 lines?). But first things first. What do I like?

I love the idea that such soulless, unstoppable enemy like the Replicators was created as nothing more than a toy of innocent child. Great twist! I love that Hammond gets to shoot and defend his base, that Janet makes an appearance, that Sam is smart but not super-smart (she openly admits this is way beyond her and she needs Asgards’ help), that another SG team is seen and everything in the second half of the episode, from the moment Jack comes in with Daniel to interrogate Reese. Speaking of who, IMO the actress did a great job.

So what’s keeping me from loving Menace to bits? Jack and Daniel in the first half. There’s something off about their behavior. Firstly, there are too many moments of obtuse, slow-on-the-uptake Jack for my taste. The scene with magnifying glass is the primary example. I know it’s supposed to be funny but instead I find it mildly annoying. Jack should be paying more attention to what’s going on, grr..

Secondly, given that Reece looks very young and acts like a child I’d think that Jack would relate to her more. Yes, I know that she’s a robot but she’s the first one SG-1 encountered since their duplicates made by Harlan, isn’t she? And she’s supposed to be a child and Jack loves children. I just don’t get why he’s so uncomfortable around her, especially at the beginning when she doesn’t pose any threat. Out of all SG-1 members he should have the easiest rapport with her. However once the Replicators show up and it’s clear Reece is dangerous Jack slips into military mode, which is totally appropriate and in-character IMO.

Thirdly, there’s something off about Daniel that I can’t put my finger on. Jack, Sam, Teal’c, even Hammond were shown to be more comfortable around children and have better contact with them than Daniel so I find it strange that he’s the one befriending her…and yes, I know he’s the resident first contact maker and all around friendly guy, but Reece doesn’t behave like an alien but as a fairly normal (hormonal) child/teenager. Apart from that he seems annoyed most of the time and is very curt with everybody and I find it strange too.

S/J implications

Nothing shippy, IMO. There’s this already mentioned scene when Jack offers to go back on the planet and throughout the episode both of them seem to be on the same page regarding the situations that arise, they are also framed together quite often, but it all says friendship and comfortable working relationship to me, nothing more.

The Sentinel

I like this one, although I’m always a little weirded out by the role-reversal that’s going on here. Jack plays the diplomat (which is a nice lead-in to season 6), Daniel plays the mathematician and Sam gives up science to focus on her military/leading role. Only Teal’c stays the same.

There are 2 minor things that annoy me. Firstly, it’s one of the worst teasers SG-1 ever did. Idiot!Jack in the teaser and serious!Jack in the actual episode seem like 2 very different characters. It’s very jarring. Secondly, we meet Super Daniel again. For all the complaining about Super Sam, Super Daniel isn’t any better. I know that logical mind and mathematical skills make learning languages easier and are useful in linguistics, but up till now (and never again) Daniel hadn’t displayed such qualities and now suddenly he turned out to be better at this than people with more expertise and experience than him.

I love the way they inserted the characters of Kershaw and Grieves into this episode and then made it look like they were there in Shades of Grey when, actually, they were never in that episode. I really liked both their characters and was kind of sad to see their character’s storylines come to a conclusion like that.

I’m probably the only one, but I don’t like it. And while I like the characters of Grieves and Kershaw I’d still prefer to see Newman and Tobias, since I liked them even more and was already invested in them. Yeah, I know, actors’ availability and all that, but still..

Also, Grieves’ rank is strange…so being a Colonel he was taking orders from another Colonel (Maybourne) and a Captain (Newman, CO of the base)?
Speaking of ranks, there is another goof..what did Grogan do to be demoted to Sergeant?

Is it just me or is there some antagonism in that first briefing room scene? Not just between Jack and Sam (who shoots Jack a couple of distinctly odd looks) but also with Daniel a bit. Just the whole body language of everyone and the fact they’re not facing/looking at each other. It seems like everyone all in a bit of a bad temper for no real apparent reason.

Ok, I watched this scene twice trying to see what you guys see and I couldn’t. I just don’t see any antagonism. Teal’c is his normal self, Daniel seems a little uncomfortable but not more than in previous 2 episodes (plus the subject does dredge up painful memories for him) and Sam seems to be unusually empathetic and understanding towards Jack, like she knows how much this situation pains him. Jack otoh is definitely curt and irritated, but he behaves that way throughout the episode, not only in this scene, and I tend to attribute it to him being generally pissed off at losing people because traitors he put behind the bars had screwed up and now he has to risk more human lives to fix it.

I never could work out quite why Jack and Grogan break off from the others and head into the city. The only conceivable reason I can think is to meet up with Marul and have that discussion so we find out about the caretaker etc. from his perspective and to help the flow of the storytelling. But then, I can’t help feeling that’s something that could have easily been explained in the briefing or on the hoof

Jack went to the city to offer Marul another solution, in case the Sentinel couldn’t be fixed. He spent most of his time trying to convince Marul to evacuate his people. It’s a perfectly logical reason IMO
Now, it is a bit strange because in your average SG-1 episode Jack would send Daniel to talk to the locals and go with Grieves himself, so that he and Teal’c could provide military back-up and Sam could focus on helping with science. It would probably be a better tactical decision too. But IMO Jack feels personally responsible for what’s happening here. Maybe he blames himself for not shutting down the NID operation sooner, maybe for not noticing the Sentinel was broken earlier, maybe for the lives already lost, who knows? The point is, he takes it personally and tries to apologise for Grieves’ actions, gain Marul’s trust, fix the situation, save as many people as he can – all by himself. It’s like he’s trying to earn Latonians’ forgiveness for something.

S/J implications

The forcefield scene, of course. I love it. Apart from that, all I get is their usual professionalism at work and friendship.