Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Cagranosalis]

Good analysis. I've never felt Jack shows a lack of passion - as Petra points out, he's willing to give up all those National Geographics for example - and I think he comes across as pretty single-minded here. I always view this episode as having a counterpart in season 6 with Smoke and Mirrors, where Sam's quest to clear Jack's name balances Jack's quest in this episode - in particular the going to the Pentagon scene with Jack and Simmons is really very like the scene where Sam goes to see Barrett. And I agree with hedwig and Petra that this really is a Jack episode - Sam's danger is there to showcase Jack's reaction, much like Entity.

Yes, I knew passion wasn't the word I was looking for but could not quitre work out what the right word was!
I think it's just that a passing view I can certainly see how season 5 comes across as devoid of ship because, if you compare his reactions here to those of previous seasons and the emotion he displays during crisis centered around Sam... it's muted here. Except, as you and Petra and Hedwig say, it isn't really at all. It's just tempered by the need to deny/hide those feelings.

I also agree on hedwig point about this being a Jack centric episode. It wasn't something I considered much during the watch but it does make sense. And yes, that whole Sam walking about perfectly fine after all that... another one of those little inconsistencies that seem at odds with what we've seen. Then again, we have seen time and again that SG-1 seem to recover from otherwise very serious illness/injury a lot quicker than you might expect in reality. I think the point at the end with Jack being shot and in the hospital was supposed to set up both the fact that Simmons appears to get away with murder (because he was't shooting to main there) and Jack is going to instantly assume it's Maybourne who did it thus setting up more antagonism between them and painting Maybourne (in Jack and the SGC's eyes) as more unscrupulous.

[Fluffy17]

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Wormhole Extreme

Synopsis

An alien spaceship has been spotted in the atmosphere with the same energy signature found in the pod in the episode “Point of No Return” which introduced Martin Lloyd as an alien trapped on Earth. He’s tracked down by the Air Force and SG1 are asked to make contact. In the meantime they’re shown a video of a new programme “Wormhole Extreme”. A story of 4 intrepid explorers, all looking far too much like SG1. The government decide not to shut it down – all down to plausible deniability. Jack is sent off to the TV Studio as the Special Advisor to find Marty and what exactly is going on. Sam & Daniel are despatched to surveillance and Teal’c is employed as a cook on the TV set. Then follows an episode about how farcical tv scifi shows can be. I mean – a 2 way wormhole – who are they kidding! And if you’re “out of phase” why don’t you drop through the floor?

Apparently the spaceship has been programmed to arrive and pick up the remaining aliens. The device for which is a prop in the TV show. We discover that Marty is actually trying to forget he was an alien, but taking the same chemicals. He’s given another chemical which unblocks his memory.

We meet those dear people at the NID – including Agent Barrett, they just want the spaceship. Eventually after a bit of a stand-off Jack gives the device to the aliens and they beam up (a la Star Trek). Marty decides to stay on Earth

Analysis

This was the 100th episode and they decided to do something a bit off the wall. I watched the commentary and actually found it quite interesting. Everyone in this episode seemed to be either actually working on the real show or was married to someone on it . And yes people do leave their mobiles on, and say we can’t have that, it costs too much, and say “bigger”, “louder”. There’s a lot of in-house jokes which won’t mean a lot unless you watch the commentary, Not sure I understood Jack as a ladies man then discovered he was supposed to be a Captain Kirk wanna be. Teal’s character doesn’t say anything because – actually he doesn’t say a lot in SG1 (comparatively). Much mick taken about the raised eyebrow though.

Shippiness

You may say this is rose colour shippy – but Jack says “Hi" to the actress playing Major Stacy Monroe (a brilliant scientist). He doesn’t go out of his way to speak to anyone else, he gets involved a few conversations but he actually makes a point of speaking to her and watches her go past.

So would have loved “his” character (Colonel Danning) to have kissed Major Monroe……….

Apparently there’s a cut scene spoofing ST Voyager referring to the Sam/Jack relationship – (just read that at GW – where is it I ask myself)

Overall, (especially as I’m at present struggling through the angsty Season 7) a light hearted look at TV shows. Also initially an episode I didn’t take to but enjoyed.

Hope this makes sense – RL mad at moment but it’s nice to do something that isn’t RL!

[Cagranosalis]

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and [ /IMG ] after (without the spaces inside the brackets). That should sort it out.

*goes back to reading the review*

[Cagranosalis]

Nice review Fluffy. I agree with you on the whole commentary thing. This one is a gem to watch with commentary on and, actually, a gem to watch if you're of a mind not to take your TV too seriously. I know a lot of people didn't like it much and it took me a few viewings to really start to love it but now I adore it even more with every subsequent viewing.

I love all the scenes with Peter Deluise effectively playing himself and shouting "Bigger!" at the explosions. Just makes me giggle every single time.

As a story it's quite weak; if it had been played straight it would have been an abysmal episode but then it was never meant to be straight and all the way through it almost-but-not-quite breaks through the fourth wall... before going right ahead and doing so at the very last scene (well, before the "outtakes" anyway).

I love the scene near the beginning when SG-1 are watching the Wormhole X-treme intro and they cut to their reaction shots as each character is introduced. One might suggest that the characterisations are a reflection on how Martin LLoyd viewed each of the members of SG-1 which makes it very interesting to see how he saw them. I also love the fact that Danning overacts and does the whole Kirk/William Shatner thing (although there's also nuances of RDA's style in there too which makes me smile).


And on a completely base note, how smokin' hot does Jack look in this episode? Seriously... why did he not wear that outfit ever again? Phwoar!

Shippiness

You may say this is rose colour shippy – but Jack says “Hi" to the actress playing Major Stacy Monroe (a brilliant scientist). He doesn’t go out of his way to speak to anyone else, he gets involved a few conversations but he actually makes a point of speaking to her and watches her go past.

So would have loved “his” character (Colonel Danning) to have kissed Major Monroe……….

Yes there's not much shippy going on here at all and I'll bow to your expert analysis on finding even that. Good spot! There's also a reference at the very end where the Stacey Munroe character asks why she never gets to kiss anyone. Not exactly shippy though.

In all the things they spoofed about themselves and about TV production in general, I'm slightly surprised they didn't satirise the whole UST thing actuallly. Or at least the whole regs issue because it would have been oh so easy to do. I'm sort of glad they didn't but it would have been funny to see how they interpreted it.

Apparently there’s a cut scene spoofing ST Voyager referring to the Sam/Jack relationship – (just read that at GW – where is it I ask myself)

Really? I'd never heard that before. I wonder if it was a cut from the script or cut after filming. If it was filmed I daresay it may show up on the official site at some point.

[Fluffy17]

And on a completely base note, how smokin' hot does Jack look in this episode? Seriously... why did he not wear that outfit ever again? Phwoar!

Oh doesn't he just - when there ain't enough shippy we can always drool at Jack as a back-up!

Thanks for the info on the image

[hlndncr]

I'm so behind! My computer crashed and I've been without internet access for a week. Computer is all better now.

So forgive me for backtracking quite a bit. I was only up to Between Two Fires when my technoheadaches began, and I'd like to make a few comments on that episode.

I've always rather liked this episode, but I try not to look too hard at the plot because it doesn't make any sense. I could go on for a long time about the things that don't add up, but I'll just say that I can see no reason for the Tollan initiating negotiations for trading technology; it only served to alert us that something fishy was going on. Maybe that was the goal of the Curia (a backdoor around the Goa'uld, and a silent plea for help) but then I can't see Omac opposing the scheme. Travail also made it clear that they didn't really need the trinium from us, which is later born out when Jack and Teal'c find the building full of completed weapons. (And so why was our trinium shipment even taken there in the first place?) But I'm not thinking about it. I'm just going to think about Jack in his dress uniform. Mmmmm, YUMMY!

Despite it's many plot holes this show does have some great character moments. I love the scene with Jack and Daniel waiting to here if we'll get the 38 ion cannons. They are seated on a pillar of somekind, nearly back to back and the camera circles them as they discuss the situation. The movement of the camera mirrors the circular or palendronic nature of the discussion, which lends to this sense of disorientation the characters are obviously experiencing in the midst of a situation they just can't fully grasp.

There's a lot of great one on one interaction between several of the characters. Jack and Daniel have a couple of nice scenes where they do their schtick. I really like the little chat between Hammond and Jack. I can see the mentoring relationship there; while Hammond is weary of Jack's diplomatic skills he also sees the potential Jack has to (as we know) one day step into Hammond's place. I also really appreciate the mention someone (I think Cags) made of Teal'c's interrupted discussion with Sam and his sensitivity to her romantic relationships. I never noticed it before.

As for Narim, I know some don't like him, but I've never had a problem with him. I think he's nice. In fact I think that's exactly why he is wrong for Sam and why she is not particularly attracted to him. His implicit trust in his government and their laws, his desire to strictly follow the rules (even when confronted by a criminal conspiracy), his near worshipful devotion to Sam (which I think is at least somewhat understandable given she saved his life in a rather impressive fashion when they first met), and his perfectly gentlemenly behavior after she suggests a lack of mutual feelings for him definitely take him out of the category of "lunatic fringe" to which Sam has previously expressed a preference. I've heard some complain that Sam is too good and too perfect (a goody-two-shoes if you will) but this is a woman who flies jets, rebuilds motorcycles, and picks locks. She is a thrill seeker, and, to a certain extent, a rule-breaker. I think Sam's opinion of Narim actually changes when he starts taking some risks and breaking the rules. When he finds Sam and Daniel in Travail's office after destroying the bombs she and Narim share a look, and you can see her approval. When she says goodbye and he runs off to help save his planet you can see that her estimation of him has gone way up (it is definitely a nice heroic arch I think Evenstar mentioned). That makes her loss at the end even more poignant.

Jack/Sam:
Thanks to Cags and Evenstar for their discussion of the look Jack gives Sam at the end. That's one I'd missed.

For me there is a Sam/Jack moment that wasn't, and I'm annoyed every time. I'm talking about when the team splits up to track the trinium and check the Curia records in Travail's office. There is absolutely no reason for Jack and Teal'c to have gone after the trinium together. Sam is the one with the technical expertise. She and Jack should have gone and Teal'c should have joined Daniel. That would have been so much more satifying on so many levels. First, it would have set up an interesting face-to-face confrontation with between Teal'c and Tanith, which would have set up Tanith's demise a few episodes down the road so much better. And that of course also means that Jack and Sam would have needed to hold hands! How I would have liked to have seen that play out.

There is one sort of shippy moment for me. At the briefing when Sam is discussing how they can tag the trinium shipment to track it and suggests a plausible story to keep from getting caught Jack just looks at Sam with what I would call a mixture of awe and fear. I think he's once again amazed that she is so smart and resourceful (she can even outwit people he knows are way smarter than we are), but also a little intimidated by how Machiavellian she's become (she comes up with that convincing lie so smoothly and effortlessly). I don't know that has any long term implications for their relationship, but it does reinforce how highly he regards her and maybe how unworthy he might suspect he (or anyone else for that matter) is of this amazing woman.

OK, I'm going to try my best to catch up with the discussion by the end of this weekend. On to 2001.

[EvenstarSRV]

Yikes, RL has gotten me really behind on the rewatch, so I just want to backtrack a bit since 2001 and Desperate Measures are among my favorite SG-1 episodes.

Another little thing related to this is Jack's reaction to Sam agreeing to go on a date with Joe, just before Sam and Joe go back through the gate, or rather non-reaction. However he instantly makes a point of talking about retirement - again this could be an attach of shippervision, but could this be a bit of a dig? Reminding Sam of the alternative?

I dunno, I guess I don't really see Jack as being so...mean-spirited in a sense to take Sam even obliquely to task for considering going out on a date with another guy. I mean I don't think he'd be overjoyed at the idea, but I think he'd be more likely to kinda talk around the idea like in Ascension or even Chimera, than call her on it.

re: Jack and his attitude towards the Aschen. I often come across the complaints that in light of this ep Jack's behaviour in "2010" was exaggerated and childish because obviously he was as taken by them as everyone else on Earth. IMO folks tend to forget that this is a different timeline, different planet and different circumstances. I agree that Jack isn't as suspicious as we were led to believe in 2010 he would be, but then we don't know what set his alarm off during their first meeting in the original timeline. This time apparently things went smoothly.

I think one big difference in the timeline are the events of Between Two Fires that preceded this episode, where the SGC was duped to a degree by the Tollan's offer of the ion cannons, and if it wasn't for Narim warning them they might not have caught as fast to Tanith's involvement. So Hammond told Daniel and Teal'c to dig deeper even though they didn't find anything suspicious in the initial meeting, and then of course the note had them all, not just Jack, doubting the Aschen even more.

And I actually saw this episode before 2010, so aside from the teaser about the note in the beginning, I had no idea about the sterility issue regarding the Aschen. Of course that meant that the twist in 2010 regarding the vaccine was spoiled for me, but that was still an amazing episode.

There is one moment during this episode where I go ”Doh!” because it seems such an obvious thing. A whole big deal is made about how special Sam is because she has the key to finding out how to remove symbiotes from hosts blah blah blah. Then there’s the discussion with Conrad – the explanation, again for the audience’s sake in case we haven’t figured out the connection – that Conrad explains his predicament to Sam. You have to wonder why Sam doesn’t just say “ok, right, so go ahead and have the symbiote put in; I’ve got some mates out there who can remove it again, no problem” In other words the Tok’ra have been able to remove symbiotes for...oh at least a couple of seasons because they freed Skaara from Klorel (then again, there’s a whole heap of inconsistency around the removal of symbiotes from hosts and it seems to be script-dependent whether it can be done and the fate of the host/symbiote if it is but that’s another discussion). Why, at this point, if you were Sam, would you not at least mention that if only to bargain for some time/your life? It’s not like they didn’t know about the Stargate at all. Did she not realise how precarious her situation was? Then if she had, we probably would not have had that rather dramatic rescue so I can’t complain.

IMO, I see Sam as being so affected, even traumatized to a degree, by Jolinar that I don't think she'd ever offer herself up for implantation by a symbiote unless she was literally at the point of death like Jack in Frozen. Plus, I think she's not sure if the SGC/SG-1 would be able to find her at this point, much less be able to capture her after she's implanted and get her through the gate to the Tok'ra, and after her experience with the armbands and za'tarc machine I don't think Sam would be too willing put her life so much in Tok'ra hands.

And then we have that dramatic rescue (which I love, by the way, not least because they almost break the fourth wall by acknowledging how dramatic is was). I keep flashing my mind back to other “near misses” at times of stress. In the past Jack has not been afraid to show his relief and give Sam either a hug or a smile or some sign that he’s glad she’s ok. He’s done this with people there too so it’s not that he’s in a room with others present that makes him hold back; it would be perfectly acceptable for him to have grabbed her into a hug and given her a quick comforting squeeze here... but he doesn’t. This is almost like the last episode and Jack’s lack of concern over Sam’s injuries while she is lying on the ramp; Does he hold back because he’s not concerned or does he hold back because he doesn’t want others – and more importantly her – to see just how concerned he was?

I think it's more because Jack was fully aware of the precariousness of their situation, they don't know where the Goa'uld/Conrad is, or if there are other armed bad guys in the building, and so he couldn't let himself get distracted from securing the room and Carter and Maybourne. Plus, I thought there was a rather nice beat with the 'You alright?' 'Yeah, very dramatic, thank you.' 'You bet' and the looks between them during that exchange.

[Cagranosalis]

I'm so behind! My computer crashed and I've been without internet access for a week. Computer is all better now.

Welcome back!

For me there is a Sam/Jack moment that wasn't, and I'm annoyed every time. I'm talking about when the team splits up to track the trinium and check the Curia records in Travail's office. There is absolutely no reason for Jack and Teal'c to have gone after the trinium together. Sam is the one with the technical expertise. She and Jack should have gone and Teal'c should have joined Daniel. That would have been so much more satifying on so many levels. First, it would have set up an interesting face-to-face confrontation with between Teal'c and Tanith, which would have set up Tanith's demise a few episodes down the road so much better. And that of course also means that Jack and Sam would have needed to hold hands! How I would have liked to have seen that play out.

Hmm, good point. And yes, it would have made more sense and been all round more satisfying from both the shippy point of view and the Teal'c/Tanith arc.

There is one sort of shippy moment for me. At the briefing when Sam is discussing how they can tag the trinium shipment to track it and suggests a plausible story to keep from getting caught Jack just looks at Sam with what I would call a mixture of awe and fear. I think he's once again amazed that she is so smart and resourceful (she can even outwit people he knows are way smarter than we are), but also a little intimidated by how Machiavellian she's become (she comes up with that convincing lie so smoothly and effortlessly). I don't know that has any long term implications for their relationship, but it does reinforce how highly he regards her and maybe how unworthy he might suspect he (or anyone else for that matter) is of this amazing woman.

Oh need to go back and watch that now since I didn't see that look when I watched.

I dunno, I guess I don't really see Jack as being so...mean-spirited in a sense to take Sam even obliquely to task for considering going out on a date with another guy. I mean I don't think he'd be overjoyed at the idea, but I think he'd be more likely to kinda talk around the idea like in Ascension or even Chimera, than call her on it.

Also welcome back.

See I don't see that as mean spirited or as taking Sam to task but more as a set up for the timeline that never was in 2010 where Jack does retire and things go very badly all round. It's almost intended an an audience cue of foreboding; this is how close we came. In terms of how it translates from a ship point of view; I don't think Jack's the kind of man to play those games. He's not putting any pressure on her, just throwing the option out there for her to think about (and I agree with you; he's not the type to do emotionally blackmail anyone like this). I think, at this point, there may well still be some feeling their way around each other in light of how they both feel and - more to the point - how aware of each others feelings they now are. So he says it, slightly alpha male like for the benefit of the guy who's kind of making a move on his girl (ish) and kind of hopes that Sam gets the implication (that he's not only suggesting retiring because he work is done but also because there won't be anything stopping them being together if that's what she wanted).

I think one big difference in the timeline are the events of Between Two Fires that preceded this episode, where the SGC was duped to a degree by the Tollan's offer of the ion cannons, and if it wasn't for Narim warning them they might not have caught as fast to Tanith's involvement. So Hammond told Daniel and Teal'c to dig deeper even though they didn't find anything suspicious in the initial meeting, and then of course the note had them all, not just Jack, doubting the Aschen even more.

Good point. Although I have always assumed that, up until the events of 2001 the timeline was exactly the same. If it were just the events on Tollana that made them wary then the whole point of 2010 would be completely moot becuase they still would have investigated and found out on their own. We'll never know what did happen in the original timeline so it's all speculation but it's fair to assume the note was the triggering event to make them dig that little bit deeper.

IMO, I see Sam as being so affected, even traumatized to a degree, by Jolinar that I don't think she'd ever offer herself up for implantation by a symbiote unless she was literally at the point of death like Jack in Frozen. Plus, I think she's not sure if the SGC/SG-1 would be able to find her at this point, much less be able to capture her after she's implanted and get her through the gate to the Tok'ra, and after her experience with the armbands and za'tarc machine I don't think Sam would be too willing put her life so much in Tok'ra hands.

Well, no I can't see Sam ever agreeing to being implanted by a symbiote again but we're talking about putting the symbiote in Adrian Conrad here and not Sam (and that's made fairly clear in the conversation they have). Sam knows what they need her for is to figure out how to get it out again and she directly states that it's beyond our current medical science (without mentioning the conveniently forgotten fact that she might know a man who can ).
I can't see her caring much if a complete stranger - one who has had her kidnapped, subjected to a whole battery of tests and will not stop at killing (although she doesn't know that at this point)- gets a snake in his head that can or cannot be removed. And even if she did care, or didn't think it was possible to remove a symbiote, weighing it all up you would think she would say something to give her the bargaining chip she desperately needed at this point. Sam's not stupid and she can be fairly unscrupulous when the occasion calls for it. However the scene is effectively cut short so maybe we were getting to that and I'm being too harsh at nitpicking this.
I also think, of everyone, Sam is the one who trusts the Tok'ra the most. Not only does she have first hand experience of being one (sort of) but her father is one. yes, while they've given them plenty of reason to consider them quite selfish, they've also been surprisingly altruistic at times and certainly haven't done anything that would make Sam or the others (except Jack who just plain doesn't like them) think they would not help out with something that seems to easy for them to do, should the need arise.
As I said though, the ability to remove symbiotes, and the fate of the host or symbiote when this is done seems to vary greatly over the course of the series and dependent on what the episode calls for so, I think, it's just one of those things they wrote this way because it suited the episode and that geeky fans like me love to pick at.

[hlndncr]

I'm going back to 2001 in my attempt to get caught up. Great review Jos!

What I like most about this episode is the way that we as the audience are in the relatively unusual position (for SG1) of knowing more than SG1 do.

I like that too.

But I have one complaint with the political side of the storyline, and that is the idea that the President is under pressure to have results because of the upcoming election! I mean, seriously, the Stargate Program is the most closely guarded secret in the United States - it's hardly going to be a vote-loser if he hasn't brought home enough shiny alien tech

I've worked in the U.S. Senate (No, I wasn't briefed on the stargate; my security clearance isn't that high. ) and you'd be surprised how elections affect the power dynamics between the Hill and the WH in all sorts of illogical ways. And it's those internal power struggles and positioning, rather than citizen votes that are probably influencing the President's actions. There's a lot we don't know about the political situation (like party affiliations and which term the SG pres. is on), but we do know that Kinsey is a power player with ambitions for the presidency; so I would bet that most of the pressure is coming from his camp.

However of course we know from 2010 that in that timeline Sam ends up married to Joe, and this episode is trying to sow the seeds of that relationship. This means there's quite a bit of Sam/Joe focus, and while it might seem on the surface that there's a corresponding lack of Sam/Jack stuff, there are shippy implications underneath, creating a bit of a triangle. There are a couple of minor flashes of the alpha male competitiveness between Jack and Joe, which prefigure the much more bitter confrontations in 2010. For example, in the first briefing room scene, after Joe has asked Sam for an explanation of how the Aschen turned a gas giant into a star, Jack's line "You've got to be careful with the word 'how' unless you really want to know" and the ensuing smug smile comes across really as a way of Jack asserting how well he knows Sam as well as revealing that proud affection in the backhanded way that he does whenever he complains about Sam's scientific genius.

Nicely put, especially the bolded bits.

There's also of course the 'sizing up' scene with Jack's comments about Joe's attire and clothes - quite a put-down, really!

I love that scene with the whole line of SG1 staring him down. And while Teal'c and Daniel have their say and turn back to watching the gate, Sam continues to closely watch (perhaps with some apprehension) the interplay between Jack and Joe.

And one other tiny thing I noticed, which may just be the ship-radar going nuts, but when Sam, Jack and Joe step onto the Aschen transporter, Jack very deliberately places himself in the middle.

Never noticed that one before. Interesting.

Another little thing related to this is Jack's reaction to Sam agreeing to go on a date with Joe, just before Sam and Joe go back through the gate, or rather non-reaction. However he instantly makes a point of talking about retirement - again this could be an attach of shippervision, but could this be a bit of a dig? Reminding Sam of the alternative?

I didn't see it as a dig, but maybe a subtle signal to Sam that he's still interested and given the chance he would definitely ask her out. (Or maybe he's just thinking, "I'm not letting Mr. Shiny Shoes take my girl without a fight.")

I dunno, I guess I don't really see Jack as being so...mean-spirited in a sense to take Sam even obliquely to task for considering going out on a date with another guy. I mean I don't think he'd be overjoyed at the idea, but I think he'd be more likely to kinda talk around the idea like in Ascension or even Chimera, than call her on it.

But seriously I agree with Evenstar here. Given the lengths Jack goes to hide any jealousy he might feel, and how he always tries to be supportive of Sam and let her make up her own mind, I can't really see him being so possessive.

And one final, final thing I noticed: Joe comments when Sam is showing him around the SGC that "this place never ceases to amaze me". Just an overwhelmed comment on having seen a lot, or has he been there before?

I always thought of that phrase as being a cliche for "WOW" not an indication that he had been there before.

When I first watched this episode I kept waiting to see that tension play out. Actually I was slightly disapointed that it wasn't really there because it certainly would have fit in well with the current state of play for their relationship and would have added an interesting layer ongoing.

I think the beginnings of that tension is definitely there at the end of the scene aboard the harvester where Jack asks if he's the only one who has a bad feeling and Sam doesn't speak out and back him up. I think the rift in the 2010 timeline probably took some time, maybe even years, to fully play out. But it is different here where everyone has a reason to be more skeptical and cautious because of the note.

One other nit I have about this episode is the very end when Sam's lying on the ramp and the reactions of the rest of SG-1 and General Hammond. They just seem a bit... um, businesslike to me. You'd think there would be more concern from the fact she's just been ejected from a wormhole ina very awkward way and is clearly hurt. You'd also think there would be more reaction to what the Aschen were about to to, and the fact Joe got left behind. Bearing in mind they went knowing something was not quite right and expecting possible trouble but not really knowing quite what it was. I just think they under-reacted a bit all round there. Maybe that's just me but it's always bugged me.

That so bothered me too! In looking for a character related (rather than a production related) explanation for their reactions, I can see a tension in Jack. He is clearly angry at Kinsey and trying to hold it together, and he is also concerned for Sam. So it's like his trying not to overtly react to either, which leaves him rooted to the spot basically staring down at Sam almost the whole time he is verbally sparing with Kinsey. (I think when Jack holds up three fingers when he says, "It's O'Neill with two LLs, the middle one is just for Kinsey.) But it was still a rather unsatifying ending.

My big nit is the preceding scene where Sam leaves Joe behind. It seems completely unnecessary to me. Joe is just standing at the rail, not threatened or restrained at all, telling Sam to go. She's already sent the IDC. He could have easily taken a running leap over the side as she cut the rope. (OK he would probably have been badly injured, but he most likely would have lived.) He should have been struggling with Boren while he ordered Sam to leave, not several seconds after (as he looks into her eyes for a silent goodbye) if they wanted to convince me the sacrifice was necessary (or at the very least plausible).

One other point about Joe; you have to feel a bit sorry for Sam don't you. I mean two dead suitors in two episodes. She's never going to catch a break.

Yes S5 was really hard on Sam. Three dead suitors so far, and a rather cool relationship with Jack. Poor girl.

Seriously though, Joe is about the only one of Sam's "suitors" that I ever really saw her actually reciprocating that feeling. She is very warm to him in this episode and the fact we see them as a couple in the other timeline is indication that it could have / would have gone that far. Even so, I never get the same feel for her other suitors as I do about Joe. With them it always seemed more a case of being flattered by the attention and I honestly think Sam is sometimes (ok, pretty much all the time) completely unaware what a great catch she is for any guy.

I totally agree. I really like Joe, and I think Sam did too. There were definitely some sparks between them from the beginning, and given that I don't think Joe's demise was really necessary, I would have loved to have seen more of that relationship developed.

I think one big difference in the timeline are the events of Between Two Fires that preceded this episode, where the SGC was duped to a degree by the Tollan's offer of the ion cannons, and if it wasn't for Narim warning them they might not have caught as fast to Tanith's involvement. So Hammond told Daniel and Teal'c to dig deeper even though they didn't find anything suspicious in the initial meeting, and then of course the note had them all, not just Jack, doubting the Aschen even more.

Great point. When you look at the progression of these episodes you can definitely see how this could affect the characters' reactions.

Next stop, Desparate Measures.

[hlndncr]

Desperate Measures here I come. Great review as always Cags! And I love your whole analysis of the Sam/Jack relationship in this ep.

I'm pretty meh on this episode overall. I don't dislike it, but it would never make a favorites list for me.

I do love the homeless guy: "I've been warning the police about ninjas for years." You gotta watch out for those ninjas.

Favourite Scene

Every single Jack/Maybourne scene. I love those two together.

I so agree. Those scenes are really what make this episode watchable for me.

There is one moment during this episode where I go ”Doh!” because it seems such an obvious thing. A whole big deal is made about how special Sam is because she has the key to finding out how to remove symbiotes from hosts blah blah blah. Then there’s the discussion with Conrad – the explanation, again for the audience’s sake in case we haven’t figured out the connection – that Conrad explains his predicament to Sam. You have to wonder why Sam doesn’t just say “ok, right, so go ahead and have the symbiote put in; I’ve got some mates out there who can remove it again, no problem” In other words the Tok’ra have been able to remove symbiotes for...oh at least a couple of seasons because they freed Skaara from Klorel (then again, there’s a whole heap of inconsistency around the removal of symbiotes from hosts and it seems to be script-dependent whether it can be done and the fate of the host/symbiote if it is but that’s another discussion). Why, at this point, if you were Sam, would you not at least mention that if only to bargain for some time/your life? It’s not like they didn’t know about the Stargate at all. Did she not realise how precarious her situation was? Then if she had, we probably would not have had that rather dramatic rescue so I can’t complain.

I think our contact with the Tok'ra is still rather sporadic at this time and it's not very clear how consistent their symbiote removel process is at this point (it does go through a sort of evolution throughout the series). Even so, you're right that Sam should have at least mentioned it. (And if Conrad new all about the Stargate program, why didn't he just go to them and offer to be a Tok'ra host for that matter?)

I also like seeing Simmons here too. I mean yes, he’s up to no good, disrespectful to Jack, a pain and generally out for his own agenda but that is what made him great. It’s really a shame we didn’t have more of him to hate during the series. I love the way Jack makes no bones about what he thinks of the man here; he’s aggressive and snarky and that, I would imagine, is a pretty unbecoming attitude to be having whilst wearing that uniform but, hey, Jack doesn’t care. That’s Jack all over. I love him for it!

I never really cared for Simmons character. He just seemed so one dimensional and cliche. (Hi, my name is Simmons and I'll be your Washington bureacrat duchebag for this season. If there's anything I can do to get in the way of you saving the world, just let me know.) I was glad when he went away. (Although I was OK with his brief reapperance and demise in season 6.)

On the more technical side I want to take a moment to admire the clever camerawork and direction in this episode. If you look at the scenes of Sam in the hospital there’s a lot of very different camera angles and fish eye lensing and various clever techniques; some of them are a bit obvious/overdone actually, but that’s rather the point because it brings out a slightly film noir feel which, coupled with the score and that kind of open ending really does make the whole conspiracy/earthbound aspect of it far more interesting and watchable.

Weird camara angles are one of the first things that comes to my mind when I think of this episode. I think it did make it a more interesting show to watch and added to the tension and creepiness.

And speaking of creepiness, that bald Dr. really creeps me out. He has this disturbing serial killer vibe, especially in the scene when he's trying to get Sam to talk about her experience with Jolinar.

When I’ve watched this in the past I always felt slightly frustrated by Jack’s lack of... passion (for want of a better word) over Sam’s predicament. He doesn’t, on the surface, seem overly bothered by her disappearance but, actually, in re-watching I think it’s all there and very much a case of still waters running deep.

I've always thought Jack's reaction was just right. Like you said, he'll stop at nothing to find her. His single-minded focus and unwavering determination speak volumes to me about how deeply he really cares. And when he says to Maybourne, "We're talking about Carter here." I can feel the raw emotion dripping off him. And Maybourne's retort that he has to be prepared for her not coming back was like a huge punch in the gut.

And then we have that dramatic rescue (which I love, by the way, not least because they almost break the fourth wall by acknowledging how dramatic is was). I keep flashing my mind back to other “near misses” at times of stress. In the past Jack has not been afraid to show his relief and give Sam either a hug or a smile or some sign that he’s glad she’s ok. He’s done this with people there too so it’s not that he’s in a room with others present that makes him hold back; it would be perfectly acceptable for him to have grabbed her into a hug and given her a quick comforting squeeze here... but he doesn’t. This is almost like the last episode and Jack’s lack of concern over Sam’s injuries while she is lying on the ramp; Does he hold back because he’s not concerned or does he hold back because he doesn’t want others – and more importantly her – to see just how concerned he was?

I think he does show his relief in a very subtle way. Just before the camera cuts away from them, you can see Jack reach out and place a hand on Sam's leg. A little touch to reassure himself that she's there and she's OK. I can't see him doing anything more because they are still in the midst of a crisis and they have a job to do. The training kicks in at that point. Compare that to just a few scenes later when Sam comes upon Jack after he's been shot; first she secures the area, then she goes to him. It's there that I could see him reaching out and giving her a hug, but he's been shot. However, Sam is continually touching him and he leans back and just looks at her. It's like they are together in their own little world for that brief moment.

I probably have more to say about this episode, but I've come to the conclusion it is more about Jack than it is about Sam's disappearance/kidnapping. In watching it at times, I keep thinking what happened to Sam is really a secondary plot to the episode in order to show what lengths Jack will go to in finding Sam.

I admit I had always considered this a Sam episode, but now that I think about it, I agree with you. This episode really is more about Jack.

And I've always disliked the ending with Sam and Hammond standing at Jack's beside in the infirmary. The focus is almost totally on or about him and hardly anything about Sam and what happened to her. In my opinion, she should have been confined to the infirmary for a few days after what she'd been through, . . . I felt like the writers simply dismissed her experience in order to focus on poor Jack (not that I have a problem with that, just that there should have been more focus on Sam at that point).

I couldn't agree more. Sam should have been in the bed right next to Jack!

[hlndncr]

Last one and then I'll be all caught up! But it has been a pleasant way to spend a Saturday afternoon.

Man Fluffy you have been jipped this season, getting all of the non-shippy episodes. Maybe you should complain to management. But nice job nonetheless.

Jack is sent off to the TV Studio as the Special Advisor to find Marty and what exactly is going on. Sam & Daniel are despatched to surveillance and Teal’c is employed as a cook on the TV set.

I just noticed that's the same assignments as Point of No Return. In that one, Teal'c was a fry cook. Maybe he's the only one of the team they could trust near a kitchen, even if he does only prepare the traditional dishes of Chulak.

We meet those dear people at the NID – including Agent Barrett, . . . .

Actually I think this does have some Jack/Sam implications. This is our first intro to Barrett, who does become something of a love interest for Sam--well, at least he is interested in her. But there's certainly no love lost between them on this first meeting. You can see the mistrust and anamosity they direct towards one another. And while Sam does eventually come to trust Barrett and even consider him a friend, I'm wondering if that initial meeting doesn't color her reactions to him ever after. (Once you've held a woman at gun point and taken her into custody, it's hard to get her to go out with you.) I just get the feeling that Sam is never completely comfortable around Barrett.

This was the 100th episode and they decided to do something a bit off the wall. I watched the commentary and actually found it quite interesting. Everyone in this episode seemed to be either actually working on the real show or was married to someone on it. . . . There’s a lot of in-house jokes which won’t mean a lot unless you watch the commentary.

First time I watched this episode I didn't like it. I didn't get all of the inside jokes and it felt like they were trying to hard to make me laugh when I just didn't find it funny. Now that I've slipped deep into fandom I get a lot more of the jokes and I do laugh. But I still wouldn't count this among my favorites or even put it very high on my list.

You may say this is rose colour shippy – but Jack says “Hi" to the actress playing Major Stacy Monroe (a brilliant scientist). He doesn’t go out of his way to speak to anyone else, he gets involved a few conversations but he actually makes a point of speaking to her and watches her go past.

Congratulations on finding shippiness anywhere!

I love the scene near the beginning when SG-1 are watching the Wormhole X-treme intro and they cut to their reaction shots as each character is introduced.

Me too. I think Sam is the only one who is happy with her screen double.

And on a completely base note, how smokin' hot does Jack look in this episode? Seriously... why did he not wear that outfit ever again? Phwoar!

Amen!

[EvenstarSRV]

Also welcome back.

Thanks!

See I don't see that as mean spirited or as taking Sam to task but more as a set up for the timeline that never was in 2010 where Jack does retire and things go very badly all round. It's almost intended an an audience cue of foreboding; this is how close we came. In terms of how it translates from a ship point of view; I don't think Jack's the kind of man to play those games. He's not putting any pressure on her, just throwing the option out there for her to think about (and I agree with you; he's not the type to do emotionally blackmail anyone like this). I think, at this point, there may well still be some feeling their way around each other in light of how they both feel and - more to the point - how aware of each others feelings they now are. So he says it, slightly alpha male like for the benefit of the guy who's kind of making a move on his girl (ish) and kind of hopes that Sam gets the implication (that he's not only suggesting retiring because he work is done but also because there won't be anything stopping them being together if that's what she wanted).

I guess I just don't see Jack as someone who would use kinda coded words he hopes Sam picks up on or would even bring up personal stuff like his feelings for her in a public place like that, he seems like a much more straightforward and private guy to me. I feel he'd more likely wait to see how the formation of the Aschen alliance eventually played out and actually start the process of retiring before he brought it up with Sam in a more private setting. Plus, I feel that the scene where Hammond realizes one of possible homeworld planets was the the address on the note was really the cue for foreboding for the audience, not that Jack mentioned retiring, IMO.

Good point. Although I have always assumed that, up until the events of 2001 the timeline was exactly the same. If it were just the events on Tollana that made them wary then the whole point of 2010 would be completely moot becuase they still would have investigated and found out on their own. We'll never know what did happen in the original timeline so it's all speculation but it's fair to assume the note was the triggering event to make them dig that little bit deeper.

I don't think it was just the events on Tollana that made the difference, though I think that played a part since it was so fresh in their minds and Hammond did order Daniel and Teal'c to go back and investigate further before they realized the significance of the note. IMO, the note seemed to be more the clincher that something was off about the Aschen and got everyone on the same page regarding them, while without it I think Jack (and perhaps Hammond) would have been the only real doubters like in 2010.

Well, no I can't see Sam ever agreeing to being implanted by a symbiote again but we're talking about putting the symbiote in Adrian Conrad here and not Sam (and that's made fairly clear in the conversation they have). Sam knows what they need her for is to figure out how to get it out again and she directly states that it's beyond our current medical science (without mentioning the conveniently forgotten fact that she might know a man who can ).
I can't see her caring much if a complete stranger - one who has had her kidnapped, subjected to a whole battery of tests and will not stop at killing (although she doesn't know that at this point)- gets a snake in his head that can or cannot be removed. And even if she did care, or didn't think it was possible to remove a symbiote, weighing it all up you would think she would say something to give her the bargaining chip she desperately needed at this point. Sam's not stupid and she can be fairly unscrupulous when the occasion calls for it. However the scene is effectively cut short so maybe we were getting to that and I'm being too harsh at nitpicking this.
I also think, of everyone, Sam is the one who trusts the Tok'ra the most. Not only does she have first hand experience of being one (sort of) but her father is one. yes, while they've given them plenty of reason to consider them quite selfish, they've also been surprisingly altruistic at times and certainly haven't done anything that would make Sam or the others (except Jack who just plain doesn't like them) think they would not help out with something that seems to easy for them to do, should the need arise.
As I said though, the ability to remove symbiotes, and the fate of the host or symbiote when this is done seems to vary greatly over the course of the series and dependent on what the episode calls for so, I think, it's just one of those things they wrote this way because it suited the episode and that geeky fans like me love to pick at.

Ah, my bad, I completely misread your post. Though, I do think that getting a snake in the head is not something Sam would wish on her enemy, even Conrad. I mean even after all he did to her, she still seemed to show some small bit of sympathy for him when she leaned forward as if wanting to help when he started coughing badly.

I do agree that the ability to remove symbiotes varied according to the requirements of the plot and that Sam trusts the Tokr'a the most out of SG-1, though outside of her dad I think that's more related to their general intentions not as much in relation to her personal health/safety. But I also think that Conrad would know he wouldn't have even a remote chance of getting to the Tok'ra since that would require going through the gate and the SGC would never let him do that, so I don't think offering that would have changed much for Sam.

[Rachel500]

Well, I'm back from holiday and so far behind it's unfunny!!!

So, quickly:

The Tomb:

Generally: I hate it. It's my least favourite episode of Stargate SG1 ever. I don't have a problem with Jack being anti-Russian. While it would have been nice for them to have seeded an actual reason beyond generic Cold War hostilities, I've always assumed that there had been an incident(s) in Jack's Black Ops days where he and the Russians clashed leaving Jack with his low opinion and anti-stance.

Sam & Jack: Well, for me there's nothing but professionalism between them here - and very little real interaction.

Between Two Fires:

Generally: I actually quite like this return to Tollana. Love the hinting at Anubis. Love the exploration of Tollana's own arrogance being their downfall. Here is the question posed: do you stand and fight, or do you capitulate and colloborate? it's an interesting one. I like that Narim gets to be the hero.

Sam & Jack: I do see his sympathy and empathy for her situation throughout (for me he's aware of Narim's feelings for her, the awkwardness she feels in response but a small worry that she might reciprocate especially in the scenes in the house), but especially at the end when they realise Tollana has fallen. But I don't think Sam would think anything of Jack's concern for her beyond that of a team-mate and a friend.

2001:

Generally: I love this follow-up to 2010 and how it was done. I always think 2001 gives us clues to how the original timeline played out with Jack initially pro but sliding into unease which is compounded by the involvement of Kinsey and SG1 being effectively shut out while Sam is pursued overtly by Joe.

Sam & Jack: I think in the original timeline, Sam may not have responded so quickly to Joe (after all the original meeting with the Aschen took place in S4 before the events of Entity when I think Sam would have had more hope of something progressing with her and Jack if they allied with the Aschen and took down the Goa'uld). Here I think events since Entity have led to a slow dying of that hope in Sam as Jack has repositioned himself as a team leader/CO/friend and nothing more. So, I think she doesn't see the Aschen meeting as something that may lead to her and Jack being together regardless of what impact it may have to him retiring and therefore she's more open to Joe's advances.

I do think Jack on the other hand, understands the threat of Joe in regards to his chance with Sam and sees the opportunity the Aschen open up (hence the mention of retirement) but I think he's also cautious about how things will work out and so doesn't overtly do anything to oppose Sam seeing Joe but I do think some of the underlying teasing of Joe in regards to asking Sam questions and his shoes is subconscious marking of territory/alpha male posturing.

I do like actually that Jack's eyes almost never leave her when she's on the ramp - he might not go to her (which I think character-wise is because he's showing Kinsey that she's tough and doesn't need them to be hovering over her) but his eyes are always on her except for when he signals after Kinsey.

Desperate Measures:

Generally: I love this episode which is possibly my favourite of S5.

Sam & Jack: In hindsight, this episode is about Jack and not about Sam really, but more importantly, it is about how far, what desperate measures Jack would take to save Sam, the woman he loves. It contrasts nicely with the opposing view of what desperate measures Diane would take to save Conrad, the man she loves. Jack here is portrayed more as a man doing everything he can to save the woman he loves not just a CO or a team-mate trying to find a member of his team (give up his worldly goods, travel all over, face down an enemy in its home lair, etc): this is a quest.

I love the scene with Maybourne when Jack says "It's Carter." and Maybourne replies that he knows but Jack should prepare himself for her not returning. I love Jack saving Sam just in the nick of time (but I love how Sam almost gets free herself). For me, Jack learns here that despite all his distancing he still loves her desperately and that actually if he almost lost her once before because they were too close (Entity), here he almost loses her because they're too distant and I think he realises he has to find a better balance. Unfortunately, of course, Sam sees nothing of Jack's efforts and possibly puts his saving her down to what he would usually do for any of them.

Wormhole X-treme:

Generally: I don't like it. I didn't like it when I first saw it and I don't like it on rewatching. It was the 100th episode and Jack spends most of it separated from the team, for crying out loud!! Yes, it's filled with in-jokes and is a light-hearted look but I would rather they had just made a fantastic usual episode.

Sam & Jack: It's interesting in some respects that PONR happened after Beneath the Surface, and WX happens after DM. As both episodes deal with emotions bubbling to the surface, the Marty episodes seem to be Sam & Jack redistancing after those events. I can't remember a single meaningful exchange between Sam and Jack beyond the professional at all in this episode.
---

There. I think I'm all caught up...great reviews everyone!!

[Cagranosalis]

Welcome back Rachel! I wondered where you'd been.

Artwork by Oma-1

The rewatch for season 5 ends mid July. Not the shippiest of seasons but it's been truly enlightening to see how much ship we can find in such and ship-lite season!
We're just going to carry right on through with Season 6 starting around 12th July at two per week until the end of September. I've already had a few people express interest in writing up reviews and thank you to everyone who has already volunteered. If anyone else wants to get involved - even if only to do one episode - please can you drop me a PM with the following information:

What episodes you'd prefer to do? (As some people have volunteered already it's first come first serve so I can't gaurantee you will get the episodes you really want but I will try and divvy up the shippier ones as fairly as I can around everyone's availability. )

What episodes you defintely don't want to do?

Any dates you can't do?


Thanks!

[josiane]

I didn't see it as a dig, but maybe a subtle signal to Sam that he's still interested and given the chance he would definitely ask her out. (Or maybe he's just thinking, "I'm not letting Mr. Shiny Shoes take my girl without a fight.")



But seriously I agree with Evenstar here. Given the lengths Jack goes to hide any jealousy he might feel, and how he always tries to be supportive of Sam and let her make up her own mind, I can't really see him being so possessive.

Going back to this to pick up from everyone else's points, I think maybe 'dig' is the wrong word - my meaning by that was pretty much exactly what I've just bolded in your post above! So not a disagreement, just a miscommunication I do think it was deliberate on Jack's part, but was part of that slight alpha male competition thing that's going on all throughout the episode - Joe asks Sam out, Jack makes a point of mentioning retirement. Certainly not mean-spirited - I completely agree with you all that that's just not in Jack's character

My big nit is the preceding scene where Sam leaves Joe behind. It seems completely unnecessary to me. Joe is just standing at the rail, not threatened or restrained at all, telling Sam to go. She's already sent the IDC. He could have easily taken a running leap over the side as she cut the rope. (OK he would probably have been badly injured, but he most likely would have lived.) He should have been struggling with Boren while he ordered Sam to leave, not several seconds after (as he looks into her eyes for a silent goodbye) if they wanted to convince me the sacrifice was necessary (or at the very least plausible).

Good point!