Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Petra]

Wow, great review Cags! Really wonderful.

You pretty much covered everything I wanted to say. Thanks for doing such a great analysis of Jack and the team dynamics - it's pretty much how I see it too. There's nothing left for me to do other than nod in agreement and address just a few minor things you mentioned.

These moments are also interesting from Sam’s perspective since she clearly does not want to let him down but realises this problem may be too big for even her brilliance to solve.

It's not really related to this thread, but I need to get it off my chest. After the latest episode of SGU there's a lot of talk in SGU folder about what a perfect Mary Sue = Miss-Fix-Everything-In-An-Hour Sam was. And I just don't get it. You have episodes like this one where Sam royally screws up and is unable to fix her mistake and multiple eps where she fails or needs help (Solitudes, Descent or Paradise Lost immidiately come to mind, for starters) - so how can you say she never had any problems with anything?

/rant over, sorry. I feel better now.

More on-topic, I like how Sam tries so hard not to fail Jack.

From the start we have a lot of framing of Sam and Jack together and lots of Sam and Jack doing things together while the other two are somewhere else. Lots and lots of it! I mean, we’re in Season 3 style framing territory here (oh, directed by Martin Wood... well that explains a lot! )

Ok, I'm confused. There was a lot of framing Sam and Jack together in season 3? I admit I don't pay attention to such things - framing, cinematography, the way an episode is directed etc; I don't notice these things at all - but I've seen anti-shippers saying that season 3 was all about framing Jack and Daniel together..Can someone better versed in this stuff tell me which pairing it was then?

It’s very interesting that we should have this at this stage when Jack is, supposedly, pulling away from Sam. There’s a lot of the old style general teamliness between Sam and Jack and a level of comfort/unspoken communication during those moments they are together that always make me scratch my head a bit when people describe Season 5 as the season Jack pulls away from Sam; because I honestly don’t see it.

As I said, for me this "distancing" that takes place in season 5 between Sam and Jack means that they give up their shippy interactions in favour of friendship and focus on their military relationship, so your observations nicely fit in with mine.

There’s an absolutely fantastic scene in the middle when Jack really lets loose, punches Malchus and pulls a gun on him. Just watch the rest of SG-1’s reactions; Teal’c is stoical as always and I can’t help thinking he’d just as soon Jack did it. Daniel is shocked but I get the feeling not so much by what Jack does as that he does it. I have a feeling Daniel is more than aware that Jack is capable of this kind of retaliatory violence (and perhaps some of the antagonism between them this season is because Daniel knows Jack so well and Jack doesn’t like that). Sam, is clearly shocked by Jack’s behaviour and I think it’s a side of him she hasn’t really seen much before and she glances at Daniel afterwards as if seeking answers from him. Just to qualify that statement; I think, while Sam is probably intellectually aware that Jack can murder someone who is relatively defenceless, I think there’s a world of difference between intellectual and experiential awareness; as much as she experiences his cold blooded rage in The Other Side, here she experiences the passionate side to that rage. Face it, Jack’s really good at keeping his emotions in check most of the time so this is something new to her.

Firstly I want to say that I also love this scene.
Secondly, that I agree with your breakdown. That's pretty much how I read it too.
Thirdly, the more I think about it the less sense it makes! Teal'c's stoicism is spot-on, that's exactly what I'd expect of him. But I don't get why Daniel would be more aware of what Jack's capable of than Sam. I mean, she is the soldier, not Daniel. She witnessed Alar's execution, not Daniel. There was nothing in the movie, back on Abydos, that would show this side of Jack and since the beginning of the series Daniel and Sam were exposed to pretty much the same things. Sure Daniel is Jack's close friend, but I don't see the having heart-to-heart about what Jack's capable of doing in the line of duty when he's pissed...so this scene leaves me a bit baffled. Any ideas?

Generally:

I love Red Sky, it's one of my favourite season 5 episodes.

In light of our recent discussion of alien cultures, on the subject of K'Tau people blindly trusting their gods and passively waiting for demise: I actually like how they were portrayed, because this, for me, is a mark of how different their culture is from ours. It boggles our (Western viewers') mind that someone can not even try to fight back or save themselves, just patiently wait for death; this is not our way. But apparently it is K'Tau's inhabitants', and I love how this seemingly minor detail is used to differentiate between two human worlds.

That's it from me. Cags said everything else better than I ever could.

[hlndncr]

Orlin, Narim and Martouf - and Tyler

I think its clear that from an Earth-Western perspective all three of Sam's alien suitors were creepy in the way they tried to interact with Sam; in Orlin's case effectively following her home, and forcing his spirit sharing on her; Narim for forcing his emotions and using her voice within his home without her permission; Martouf, well, just for the smile alone...

Yet, I have come to accept the view that actually culturally things could have been different for all of them, and their actions in their own culture acceptable.

In regards to Orlin, he might have been an Ancient but they're not humans - they're the first evolution of the human form which is an important difference. We only ever see glimpses of the Alteran way of life but certainly not enough of it to make a determination that they ascribed to the same sexual mores as Earth-Western culture of recent decades.

And to link this with The Fifth Man - by comparison sometimes I think I forgive Tyler's actions in deceiving Jack and placing him in danger through that deception because Tyler is so obviously alien when he reveals his true form. Yet it could be argued that his "crimes" of deception, regardless of his motivation to protect himself, are definitely as unacceptable as the actions by Sam's alien suitors - certainly in regards to Martouf who's main crime in my eyes was an inability for a long time to differentiate between Sam and Jolinar due to grief, Tyler's deception is in fact worse. Yes, Tyler eventually admits his deception and tries to save SG1 by sacrificing himself but so too did Orlin, Narim and Martouf move past their initial actions and try to save lives.

I would be more inclined to accept the argument that I'm not properly judging cultural differences it Sam's admires (alien and human) weren't all from vastly different cultures, races, locations (and even planes of existence) and yet still acted equally stalkerish and creepy.

I strongly disagree with the Tyler comparison. His actions and motivations were entirely different. Tyler was acting for survival (for himself and perhaps that of his people) in a way that really was not vastly different from the base instincts of any human, by using the resources available to him. His actions were not based on personal desires and convenience, and while it did put Jack in danger, he was concerned to fix his error. Therefore, I have no problem understanding and justifying his actions.

The main reason I brought up the analyzing feelings part was that I'd been reading some earlier posts suggesting that, for example, in Threshold Jack sent Sam with Bra'tac because he wanted to personally distance himself from her. But to me, I just saw Jack and Saw dealing with a mission (trying to save Teal'c) and one that may not always require Sam to be in the same room as Jack. And personally, if Jack is so worried about being too close to his team that he'll make mission-related decisions based on his personal emotions re Sam (whether to send her away on some task or not), or Daniel and Teal'c, then he needs to go to Hammond and get reassigned because he's no good to his team otherwise. I've always seen Jack as a man who is very good at compartmentalizing his emotions, so I personally don't see him having such trouble dealing with his feelings for Sam that it impacts his decision-making in the field in such a way.
***
This is probably where my perspective as a non-shipper makes the difference, since I don't see falling back on their friendship as distancing, but rather a return to their usual relationship after the heightened emotions of parts of S4. Friendship is my baseline for Sam and Jack, so I personally consider those friendship moments to be as important in many ways as shippy moments in defining their personal closeness. I haven't really thought about the difference in the number of those moments between seasons, but that's something I can look at more closely with this rewatch.

I don't think there is anything in Jack's actions to keep his distance from Sam in personal matters while on base as being evidence of a failure to act properly or a lack of compartmentalization. His actions were not mission critical or in anyway compromised his position as team leader. In fact, Fifth Man demonstrates they can work together effectively even under strained personal circumstances.

I do agree that Jack and Sam have a solid foundation of friendship, which is one of the things I love best about their relationship. But I believe the events of this season certainly strain and test this friendship.

[Rachel500]

Red Sky

Generally

Nice review. I have to admit that I was also a bit 'meh' about this episode on first watching (many years ago). But I do enjoy it in rewatching.

It's a good story examining faith versus science based around one of the Stargate standard tropes (we mess up some alien culture and try to correct our mistake).

What is great is that this is not an examination of the Goa'uld for once in terms of False Gods but the Asgard. As Jack points out to them, the Asgard have set themselves up as Gods to the people on the planet; they have assumed a position of responsibility over them and I think, even while understanding the Protected Planet Treaty issue, Jack sees their official decision not to respond as an abdication of that responsibility. It's a point of contention between the Asgard and Earth that while the Asgard are certainly benevolent False Gods, they are still lying to the worlds they protect in the main.

And I think this in part drives much of Jack's anger when things turn sour with the rocket being sabotaged by Malchus - because he knows the truth. He knows that two men died needlessly because of Malchus' fanatical faith in a God who Jack knows is an alien who has told him that they won't help. For Jack, there is no faith versus science debate here; he totally believes there is only science for these people and when a few so fully reject it, killing his men in the progress, he loses it with all of them.

That scene with Jack effectively going all "Jaffa revenge" on Malchus is probably one of the few times we see Jack lose it in the heat of temper. Normally, his ruthlessness is colder in nature - decisions made from a tactical objective position such as when he closes the iris on Alar. Here he's completely "hot" (in more ways than one). There is a saying that people see red when they lose their temper - and Jack sees red here (nicely fitting with the whole red motif of the episode). And I do actually think all of them know Jack is capable of this kind of rage but they're all just shocked (except maybe Teal'c) that he's actually allowed himself to go there so publically. I agree with Cags, that the way SG1 talk him round actually is a sign of how much Jack trusts in them, and the fact that they are prepared to argue with him is a sign of how much they trust him.

Before, I nip onto Sam and Jack, I just want to briefly mention Jack and Daniel. I agree that their friendship comes under pressure in S5 but I would argue that it comes under pressure in S4 too - the build up of Daniel's unhappiness with his life at the SGC, on SG1, is a long one. Them arguing about the way to handle a situation is not unusual, and for all Daniel's annoyance and irritation with Jack when he tries to tell everyone about the Asgard, I think Daniel understands why. (But then I don't believe that there was such an issue between Jack and Daniel in regards to their friendship that it was a factor in Daniel's decision to Ascend as I think its Daniel's own dissatisfaction with what he sees as his inability to make a difference that is key.)

Sam and Jack

Sam, for me, throughout feels a very personal responsibility for what happened. She helped design the dialling computer, gave the recommendation and established a lock, pressed the button. She is very personally invested in trying to work out a solution and correct her mistake.

Ever since Brief Candle, Jack has a tendency to believe that Sam will be able to fix anything, and here is no exception. He has belief in her to come up with a solution - and I think as we've discussed before his blind faith in her to just "fix it" actually has to be very hard to live with sometimes even though its a sign of how much trust he places in her.

There are some nice moments between them: I love the scene in the market where Sam is using vegetables to explain what she thinks happened. And I do love the scene in her lab when she's briefing Hammond and him on her new plan after the failure of the rocket.

I admit that my own interpretation that Jack as a character distanced himself from Sam (and the rest of the team to some degree) following Entity, is a post-revisionist view established in terms of trying to work out why there is such a difference in tones between S4 and S5 in terms of the Sam/Jack dynamic for me, and finding character motivations and reasons to explain that. Because certainly in first watching S5, it did feel for me that someone had thrown a bucket of cold water over the ship.

So from a revisionist view, it makes sense to me that they both step back after Entity, and especially Jack in particular. However, I do firmly believe that underneath their professionalism, both still love each other (even if by this point in my view they are questioning whether the other loves them). So this caring tends to bubble out through odd moments of friendship between them even though the majority of their interaction is professional. I think the scene in the lab is one of those; you kind of get the impression that Sam is keeping an eye on Jack post his blow-up; Jack is trying to buoy Sam up knowing her feelings of guilt. And there is just a nice vibe between the two of them because of that.

To put it another way: just because they are being professional, trying to distance themselves from their more inappropriate personal feelings of loving each other, that doesn't mean they actually stop loving each other, and it doesn't mean that all of their interaction is purely professional. It just means however that they start viewing these moments only as friendship on the part of the other, especially Sam who later in Grace will question whether Jack cares for her only as a friend.

[josiane]

Just seconding (thirding, fourthing?) that that was an awesome review, Cags, and I'm not sure there's much more I can add either!

(and I've 'done a Josiane' with this one so... continued in next post... )

One thing that is significant is Jack’s seemingly blind faith in Sam to fix the problem they caused when they inadvertently damaged the K’Tau sun. It’s an interesting parallel to the blind faith the K’Tau people seem to have in their god, which is made all the more relevant by the fact that Jack spends a good deal of the episode trying to convince them not to be so blindingly slavish. There’s a couple of moments when Sam’s face betrays almost panic/fear when Jack’s being so reliant on her and her science to solve this; again interesting considering this is a man who started out not liking scientists and who is now fully ready to completely trust science. He’s come a long way hasn’t he! I wonder what could possibly have occurred to make him feels so differently!

Ooh, nice parallel! One of the things I find interesting about Jack's character is that he can be quite inadvertently hypocritcal in his dealings with other cultures - quick to judge and to hold them to his/Earth's standards while not always recognising things aren't that black and white. It's one of the reasons he and Daniel rub each other up the wrong way so much, and I think that SG1 does a really good job of showing that neither approach is perfect. It's action/decisiveness versus questioning/doubting, and different situations need these in different ways and amounts. If the balance is out, then SG1 encounter problems.

From the start we have a lot of framing of Sam and Jack together and lots of Sam and Jack doing things together while the other two are somewhere else. Lots and lots of it! I mean, we’re in Season 3 style framing territory here (oh, directed by Martin Wood... well that explains a lot! )
It’s very interesting that we should have this at this stage when Jack is, supposedly, pulling away from Sam. There’s a lot of the old style general teamliness between Sam and Jack and a level of comfort/unspoken communication during those moments they are together that always make me scratch my head a bit when people describe Season 5 as the season Jack pulls away from Sam; because I honestly don’t see it. Or at least I don’t see it consistently... or I don’t see it consistently yet. Or, I don’t see it as consistently as I see the demise in his friendship with Daniel (although the two might be related). While none of Sam and Jack’s framed/together moments in this episode are shippy, per se, they are indicative of the kind of comfortable relationship they do have right now and certainly show not much evidence of a Jack struggling to maintain professionalism where Sam is concerned. However... read on...

No, I don't see it consistently either. Personally, I put it down to what [b]Rachel]/b] said:

just because they are being professional, trying to distance themselves from their more inappropriate personal feelings of loving each other, that doesn't mean they actually stop loving each other, and it doesn't mean that all of their interaction is purely professional.

I guess I see their interaction in season 5 as being one where how close they seem depends on how well they remember that they're being professional - when they forget, or when something threatens the other and there's danger (eg Desperate Measures and as we discussed last week, Ascension too), the 'old way' breaks through.

The only other noteworthy thing to mention is that great scene back at the SGC, first when he pays Sam one of those back handed compliments about her brilliance (which he does all the time) and then when he gets something right; because he’s clearly goofing about a bit here and it’s largely to make Sam smile – which she does. I love that he does the whole deflection of his own intelligence here too and that Sam humours him with it, and mostly I love that they do all this right there in front of General Hammond.

I don't have anything much insightful to say about this scene, but just have to say I absolutely adore this scene to bits and it's one of my real favourites

[Cagranosalis]

It's not really related to this thread, but I need to get it off my chest. After the latest episode of SGU there's a lot of talk in SGU folder about what a perfect Mary Sue = Miss-Fix-Everything-In-An-Hour Sam was. And I just don't get it. You have episodes like this one where Sam royally screws up and is unable to fix her mistake and multiple eps where she fails or needs help (Solitudes, Descent or Paradise Lost immidiately come to mind, for starters) - so how can you say she never had any problems with anything?

/rant over, sorry. I feel better now.

Rant away!


To be absolutely fair, I do think there was a whole period where Sam was turned into SuperSam the FixAll girl by the writers whenever there was anything even remotely scientific to dal with. Even in this epsiode she comes up with an almost impossible solution (which may or may not have worked but that's largely irrelevant; she came up with it is what counts). I can see why there was criticism there but then, in a series that has four main characters (and a few peripheral regulars) if you have a scientist, a soldier, a honourable alien rebel and a humanist, Sam is nealry always going to get the science stuff, and Daniel will always be the one who wants to talk, Teal'c the one who places hnour above everything and Jack the one who wants to shoot everything.

Ok, I'm confused. There was a lot of framing Sam and Jack together in season 3? I admit I don't pay attention to such things - framing, cinematography, the way an episode is directed etc; I don't notice these things at all - but I've seen anti-shippers saying that season 3 was all about framing Jack and Daniel together..Can someone better versed in this stuff tell me which pairing it was then?

Depends on your perception I think. I always say perception is reality so if you're a Jack/Daniel fan (slash or friendship) you will pick up on that more that the Sam/Jack stuff. There's some good exmaples of the type of framing/mirroring in previous rewatch reviews on here. I know I did Urgo and there's a lot there but that's by far not the only one.

...the more I think about it the less sense it makes! Teal'c's stoicism is spot-on, that's exactly what I'd expect of him. But I don't get why Daniel would be more aware of what Jack's capable of than Sam. I mean, she is the soldier, not Daniel. She witnessed Alar's execution, not Daniel. There was nothing in the movie, back on Abydos, that would show this side of Jack and since the beginning of the series Daniel and Sam were exposed to pretty much the same things. Sure Daniel is Jack's close friend, but I don't see the having heart-to-heart about what Jack's capable of doing in the line of duty when he's pissed...so this scene leaves me a bit baffled. Any ideas?

You know I've thought and thought about this (and I nearly didn't mention it in the review because I dind't have an answer) but I do think Daniel is more aware. I think there's things that go back to the first mission on Abydos - Jack was essentially suicidal and Daniel was partly responsible for bringing him out of that. It may not have been seen or said on screen but there was a bond of trust they formed when Jack lied to protect him when he came back to earth. There's also the moment in Need where Jack indicates having experinece with substance abuse (self or other?). So no, I don't think they've had a heart to heart about it; I just think Daniel is more emotionally and psychologically aware than Sam and has seen this capability in him. Where Sam, may know he's done this stuff in an intellectual level, but doens't have the emotional intellegenec (yet, anyway) to equate that with his personality.
I don't know if I am explaining that at all well - two glasses of wine do not make a good reviewer!

[B]Red Sky

Before, I nip onto Sam and Jack, I just want to briefly mention Jack and Daniel. I agree that their friendship comes under pressure in S5 but I would argue that it comes under pressure in S4 too - the build up of Daniel's unhappiness with his life at the SGC, on SG1, is a long one. Them arguing about the way to handle a situation is not unusual, and for all Daniel's annoyance and irritation with Jack when he tries to tell everyone about the Asgard, I think Daniel understands why. (But then I don't believe that there was such an issue between Jack and Daniel in regards to their friendship that it was a factor in Daniel's decision to Ascend as I think its Daniel's own dissatisfaction with what he sees as his inability to make a difference that is key.)

Oh yes the antagonism between Daniel and Jack does start long before this point but I think Season 5 is where it reaches the point where the antagonism starts to threaten the friendship, as opposed to complimenting it, if that makes any sense (uh, see above for my nonsensicaness).

I admit that my own interpretation that Jack as a character distanced himself from Sam (and the rest of the team to some degree) following Entity, is a post-revisionist view established in terms of trying to work out why there is such a difference in tones between S4 and S5...

<snipped for space alone>

To put it another way: just because they are being professional, trying to distance themselves from their more inappropriate personal feelings of loving each other, that doesn't mean they actually stop loving each other, and it doesn't mean that all of their interaction is purely professional. It just means however that they start viewing these moments only as friendship on the part of the other, especially Sam who later in Grace will question whether Jack cares for her only as a friend.

Uh, yes, exactly.

[slurredspeech]

To be absolutely fair, I do think there was a whole period where Sam was turned into SuperSam the FixAll girl by the writers whenever there was anything even remotely scientific to dal with.

I absolutely agree, and personally, I hate that period, simply because it takes away from the character instead of highlighting everything that's awesome about her. Any of them - even at their worst, they still have this redeemable quality in that they try their best/do it for the right reasons/believe they are doing it for the right reasons -- which is what I love about my hero characters in any given show. Screw up - it's what humans do, after all and I have no problem with that; I will still root for you as long as your heart is in the right place (or wants to be).

That's one of the reasons why I find Jack's reaction in this ep so bloody awesome (wanting to shoot the guy thing). It's... gah, real. I know I wanted to punish the fluck for doing what he did. The reaction is human, instinctive; it's outrage and impotence and incredulity all rolled into one and I couldn't love Jack more had he been all level-headed and pre-scripted about it. <33

Same goes for Sam in this. She made a mistake, and she carried the consequences. I adore her for it. And, sure, she was the one to solve it (or was she; the ending was left pretty open to interpretation; no mind, though); like Cags said, who else could have come up with the solution. It was always going to be Sam. Showing her smarts outsmarting herself, however, was great and done a lot for the character as well.

She's not beyond making mistakes. She's not beyond admitting to them and doing her darnest to rectify the situation, either.

Certainly a win.

Oh yes the antagonism between Daniel and Jack does start long before this point but I think Season 5 is where it reaches the point where the antagonism starts to threaten the friendship, as opposed to complimenting it, if that makes any sense (uh, see above for my nonsensicaness).

Is it just me, or had they been written that way since S4, certainly to escalate in S5? I can't help but think of The Other Side, and how very at odds them two were there -- almost jarringly so, for that point in the series and with no prior build-up to it. Or, in any case, that's how I remember it seeming to me upon first watching it. In retrospect, S5 (and late S4) made it make sense.

... Unlike I am probably making now, with a few Jaegers in me. Woe. D:


Red Sky in general -- love it. S/J in particular. That scene with them two + General Hammond, that I believe someone else already mentioned? So much love. <33 I'm a sucker for them two like that.

[hedwig]

One thing that is significant is Jack’s seemingly blind faith in Sam to fix the problem they caused when they inadvertently damaged the K’Tau sun. It’s an interesting parallel to the blind faith the K’Tau people seem to have in their god, which is made all the more relevant by the fact that Jack spends a good deal of the episode trying to convince them not to be so blindingly slavish. There’s a couple of moments when Sam’s face betrays almost panic/fear when Jack’s being so reliant on her and her science to solve this; again interesting considering this is a man who started out not liking scientists and who is now fully ready to completely trust science. He’s come a long way hasn’t he! I wonder what could possibly have occurred to make him feels so differently!

The answer to the 1st bolded part is in the 2d bolded part (although the question should probably be "who" could make him feel so differently). He doesn't ever completely trust science. He trusts Sam completely to come up with answers. He doesn't feel that way about other scientists or science in general.

[EvenstarSRV]

It's not really related to this thread, but I need to get it off my chest. After the latest episode of SGU there's a lot of talk in SGU folder about what a perfect Mary Sue = Miss-Fix-Everything-In-An-Hour Sam was. And I just don't get it. You have episodes like this one where Sam royally screws up and is unable to fix her mistake and multiple eps where she fails or needs help (Solitudes, Descent or Paradise Lost immidiately come to mind, for starters) - so how can you say she never had any problems with anything?

I think what people also tend to forget or not account for is the different storytelling styles between SGU and SG-1. SG-1 was episodic, so aside from the occasional arc-based episode or two-parter, most of the situations were designed to be resolved within one episode, whether it was Sam getting some device to work, Daniel getting two sides of a issue to reach a compromise, or Jack or Teal'c taking down the bad guy. It's like shows like NCIS or Law & Order with crimes and cases that are usually set-up and solved within one episode. SGU is serialized so by it's nature many of the problems and situations are not meant to be fully resolved within one episode.

I love Red Sky, it's one of my favourite season 5 episodes.

In light of our recent discussion of alien cultures, on the subject of K'Tau people blindly trusting their gods and passively waiting for demise: I actually like how they were portrayed, because this, for me, is a mark of how different their culture is from ours. It boggles our (Western viewers') mind that someone can not even try to fight back or save themselves, just patiently wait for death; this is not our way. But apparently it is K'Tau's inhabitants', and I love how this seemingly minor detail is used to differentiate between two human worlds.

That's it from me. Cags said everything else better than I ever could.

Pretty much ditto for me. I really enjoy Red Sky for most of the reasons mentioned above, though I think it would have been a more interesting ending if they hadn't been able to save the planet. I do think that Jack doesn't necessarily have more faith or trust in 'science' but that he trusts Sam far more than the villagers. I think it's like what he says in Daniel's hallucination in TDYK, he may not believe what Daniel does (that Sha're sent him that message via hand device) but he does believe in him. I think it's the same with Sam, he may not understand/believe the science behind her ideas, but he believes/trusts in her.

I don't think there is anything in Jack's actions to keep his distance from Sam in personal matters while on base as being evidence of a failure to act properly or a lack of compartmentalization. His actions were not mission critical or in anyway compromised his position as team leader. In fact, Fifth Man demonstrates they can work together effectively even under strained personal circumstances.

I just can't wrapped my head around the idea that Jack or Sam have such a hard time handling their personal feelings for each other that they would try not to be in the same room together on base, I personally think they have far more self-control than that. But I'm willing to agree to disagree.

To be absolutely fair, I do think there was a whole period where Sam was turned into SuperSam the FixAll girl by the writers whenever there was anything even remotely scientific to dal with. Even in this epsiode she comes up with an almost impossible solution (which may or may not have worked but that's largely irrelevant; she came up with it is what counts). I can see why there was criticism there but then, in a series that has four main characters (and a few peripheral regulars) if you have a scientist, a soldier, a honourable alien rebel and a humanist, Sam is nealry always going to get the science stuff, and Daniel will always be the one who wants to talk, Teal'c the one who places hnour above everything and Jack the one who wants to shoot everything.

When was this period of Super Sam? I've personally never really felt that this happened to Sam, but then I've seen the series mostly out of order so I have to work at thinking of the episodes in their proper sequence. And in this ep Sam's solution was to a physics problem, which fits with her science specialty.

[hlndncr]

I really enjoy the episode Red Sky and for the most part agree with everything that's been said.

A couple of notes about the production itself. That opening shot where the team comes tumbling through the gate was done by having the camera operator throw himself down the stairs. You have to give the guy props for his commitment, and it looks great.

As I was listening to Jack's interaction with the Asgard High Council (my favorite scene) the voice of one of the Asgard sounded familiar so I looked it up. I had heard it before; it was the voice of Mollem. So does this mean that the Achen have infiltrated the Asgard High Council?

I love the disapprovel of Freyre and the other Asgard directed toward Jack. It's amazing what the puppet operators were able to accomplish with just a blinking of the eyes or tilting of the head. Brilliant!

I empathize strongly with Jack's position throughout the episode. I think he is a person who has a strong moral code and believes in acting with honor, and I see him being justifiably upset with the Asgard (who up until this point he has just loved) for dooming the people of K'Tau through there perpetuation of a false religion. This statement I think says it all: "They have the power to help you, but they chose not to."

The Asgard suggest that there masquerading as gods is one of benevolence and respect for the natural evolution of their culture. But it has really stunted their development and could lead unnecessarily to their destruction. The people do not know that their "gods'" protection is only limited to one unknown enemy.

At the same time, as a person of faith myself, I don't want to suggest that trusting in God for help is irrational or wrong. Nor do I believe that faith inevitably conflicts with science. But the determination of the Asgard to maintain their deception interferes with the ability of the people to move beyond a blind, unreasoning faith that is harmful to their continuing development and perhaps eventual survival.

While the Asgard could not under the treaty directly (overtly) interfere by fixing the sun outright (which I think would have perpetuated the unnatural dependence on the Asgard "gods") they could have endorsed the efforts of the SGC to help them. Thus encouraging greater development and independence by the K'Tau, avoiding the destructive religious fervor of Malchus and his ilk, and allowing us to fix our mistake.

I have to say, I'm just really disappointed in the Asgard here. When they do step in (if it was them) it is with an unnecessarily high-handed charlatanism that leaves the people still in thrall to a false and destructive religious fanaticism.

As to the relationships in this episode. I do see the unwaivering faith Jack has in Sam, and that has got to be a lot of pressure for her. Especially as she is also coping with the guilt of "pressing the button that will essentially end this civilization." I think that, more than any feelings she has for Jack, motivates her in this episode.

I'm not sure what was meant by "framing" as mentioned in other posts, but I will say that I see Jack as the focal point of all the relationships on SG-1. Yes we do have some Sam/Daniel (especially in season 1) and a few precious Sam/Teal'c, and the seriously under-explored Daniel/Teal'c dynamic. But for me Jack will always be at the solid core of the team. (And that's why S9 & S10 just don't work for me, no matter how much I'm supposed to like Mitchell.)

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see any real difference between Daniel and Sam's reaction to Jack's blow-up and emotional rampage. I think they are equally shocked to see a side of Jack they know is their but have never been confronted with in such a raw and direct manner. I think they both put forward the best each one has to "talk him down." And I think it shows the fundamental trust and understanding between them all that it they can do that.

[Cagranosalis]

When was this period of Super Sam? I've personally never really felt that this happened to Sam, but then I've seen the series mostly out of order so I have to work at thinking of the episodes in their proper sequence. And in this ep Sam's solution was to a physics problem, which fits with her science specialty.

Well, not strictly on topic so spoilered...

Spoiler:

It did become something of a device that anything scientific Sam instantly got stuck in regardless of whethetr that was her area of expertise. Sam's doctorate is in Astrophysics. She possibly has engineering, maths, maybe even computer science/programming credentials and I can buy all that. But there were a number of episodes where the subject matter was definitely not her field but she seemed to get stuck in there anyway (I am thinking of episodes like Legacy, Frozen, Nightwalkers, Evolution part 1, where a lot of the action was of a more biological nature and, oh I'm not saying she would not be the logical choice to, for instance, help Janet in Frozen but there's a world of difference between medicine and physics). Then there's also her suddenly discovered lock picking skills, her almost instant mastery of both Ancient and Asgard technology... all of which is at odds with the amount of time you'd assume she had to study said technology given that she works on a field team and spends much of her time off world. When you think back to Season 3's Learning Curve and how she struggled to understand the naquaddah generator, one has to wonder if she didn't snurch one of those nanites for herself to explain her rapid skills/knowledge development.

Then again, in any realistic situation, someone with her skill set would almost certainly not have been sent off world week in, week out as that would be a complete waste of their skills. *shrugs*

Of course, all that said perception is reality and that's my perception; yours may be different and I wouldn't be so pretentious to think one or the other is right.
I also agree with your comment that SG-1 and SGU are completely different beasts and, frankly, in the context of SG-1 having the resident scientist involved in the solving, or solving the "problem of the week" if it is of a scientific nature, makes sense. Otherwise we'd be bringing in new characters every other week for just one episode and that doesn't work so good.
In relation to Red Sky the problem was scientific and was right up Sam's street. Yes, I think she came up with the possible cause of the sun's problem rather too quickly and there was no real speculation about possible other scenarios (of which I could think of a few) and a real close examination of the science and things don't really add up.... but heck, it's 45 minutes of drama and how else are you supposed to tell the story without making a few leaps of faith (er, pardon the pun). And, er, not to be too flippant but it's called scient fiction for a reason. (In other words, Super Sam or otherwise, it's not something that spoils my enjoyment of her character.)

A couple of notes about the production itself. That opening shot where the team comes tumbling through the gate was done by having the camera operator throw himself down the stairs. You have to give the guy props for his commitment, and it looks great.

I love the special feature on this episode. Actually not sure if it's the Director Series or AT's video diary but there's some really good behind the scenes stuff in it.

I love the disapprovel of Freyre and the other Asgard directed toward Jack. It's amazing what the puppet operators were able to accomplish with just a blinking of the eyes or tilting of the head. Brilliant!

Oh yes I agree! I always amazes me how they do that.

I empathize strongly with Jack's position throughout the episode. I think he is a person who has a strong moral code and believes in acting with honor, and I see him being justifiably upset with the Asgard (who up until this point he has just loved) for dooming the people of K'Tau through there perpetuation of a false religion. This statement I think says it all: "They have the power to help you, but they chose not to."

The Asgard suggest that there masquerading as gods is one of benevolence and respect for the natural evolution of their culture. But it has really stunted their development and could lead unnecessarily to their destruction. The people do not know that their "gods'" protection is only limited to one unknown enemy.

That's an excellent point. Although the Asgard judged that the K'Tau people were not ready to give up their belief system just yet, I wonder what might have happened had they been honest with them then? Maybe they would have been faced with more mass-fundementalism a la Malchus and that would not have worked out so well.

I have to say, I'm just really disappointed in the Asgard here. When they do step in (if it was them) it is with an unnecessarily high-handed charlatanism that leaves the people still in thrall to a false and destructive religious fanaticism.

I think the ending is supposed to be open to interpretation. Either, Sam succeeded after all, the Asgard did step in having been given an opening to do so discreetly, or the prayers the K'tau people and Daniel offered were "heard" by some real divine entity? Who knows. They Asgard etc. could be going around masquarading as Gods replacing the Goa'uld gods who had, themselves, replaced a real, actual god?

I'm not sure what was meant by "framing" as mentioned in other posts, but I will say that I see Jack as the focal point of all the relationships on SG-1. Yes we do have some Sam/Daniel (especially in season 1) and a few precious Sam/Teal'c, and the seriously under-explored Daniel/Teal'c dynamic. But for me Jack will always be at the solid core of the team. (And that's why S9 & S10 just don't work for me, no matter how much I'm supposed to like Mitchell.)

What I meant by framing here is in a literal sense. i.e. the way the shot is set up and the groupings of the chatacters on screen. For instance, in a conference room scene, Jack and Sam will be sat one side, with Daniel and Teal'c the other so whenever there's a two-shot scene it's those two in it. Also reaction shots and the order in which they are shown (i.e. Sam says something shocking and the first reaction we cut to is Jack's). I think it's those very subtle nuances in the way the scenes are laid out and edited together that make a lot of difference to how the story tells itself.
But on what you said about Jack being a focal point; yes, I can see where you are coming from on that.

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see any real difference between Daniel and Sam's reaction to Jack's blow-up and emotional rampage. I think they are equally shocked to see a side of Jack they know is their but have never been confronted with in such a raw and direct manner. I think they both put forward the best each one has to "talk him down." And I think it shows the fundamental trust and understanding between them all that it they can do that.

Well I think my "feeling" about that (and it is just a feeling) comes from the way the scene is set up and the aformentioned length, timing and composition of the reaction shots. I have no hard evidence either way; it's just my perception.

[Petra]

I know religion is a very touchy subject, so please believe me that I don't wish to offend anyone and if someone does feel that way, I sincerly apologise.

The Asgard suggest that there masquerading as gods is one of benevolence and respect for the natural evolution of their culture. But it has really stunted their development and could lead unnecessarily to their destruction. The people do not know that their "gods'" protection is only limited to one unknown enemy.

At the same time, as a person of faith myself, I don't want to suggest that trusting in God for help is irrational or wrong. Nor do I believe that faith inevitably conflicts with science. But the determination of the Asgard to maintain their deception interferes with the ability of the people to move beyond a blind, unreasoning faith that is harmful to their continuing development and perhaps eventual survival.

While the Asgard could not under the treaty directly (overtly) interfere by fixing the sun outright (which I think would have perpetuated the unnatural dependence on the Asgard "gods") they could have endorsed the efforts of the SGC to help them. Thus encouraging greater development and independence by the K'Tau, avoiding the destructive religious fervor of Malchus and his ilk, and allowing us to fix our mistake.

I have to say, I'm just really disappointed in the Asgard here. When they do step in (if it was them) it is with an unnecessarily high-handed charlatanism that leaves the people still in thrall to a false and destructive religious fanaticism.

I have to disagree with you here. I don't support the Asgard playing gods - actually, I'm still unsure why they did it at all - but I really don't see what other choice did they have in this situation.

People of K'Tau believe in the Asgard just like people of Earth believe in God/Jesus/Allah/Shiva etc. It's real to them. Try to put yourself in their shoes: if our God suddenly appeared and admitted that he's just some incredibly advanced alien, what would you do? Would you believe it? I don't think so. Just like I don't believe that people of K'Tau would believe Freyr, Thor and the others, even if they would have shown up in their spaceships, started to explain technology etc. They might just think that it's some trick of SG-1 or something. In any case, I don't see what good it would do.

I also disagree that the Asgard "stunted their development" - if anything, they just allowed their culture to develop naturally. I can't think of any cultures here on Earth that didn't go through the period of blind faith and fanaticism. It's just a phase a society has to go through at some point, and K'Tau people were no different. If they didn't believe in the Asgard, they would believe in something/someone else and I'm willing to bet the end result would have been pretty much the same.

I like that the ending was left open to interpretation, but, like Evenstar, I would have loved it if there was no happy end. It was a perfect ep to end in tragedy. (I'm heartless, I know)

[josiane]

I've done another 'me', so this is again over two posts...

Banner by Jumble

Synopsis

Janet and Sam are celebrating Cassie's birthday when Cassie collapses. They take her to the SGC infirmary where Janet discovers that Cassie is suffering from a retrovirus, and it must have come from Hanka as it doesn't match any known virus on Earth. Daniel digs out SG7's notes from the original Hanka mission and find reference to teenagers becoming sick like Cassie, then going into the forest and coming back cured. SG1 go to Hanka and discover that there are rings to Nirrti's lab in the forest. Returning to the SGC, Cassie is worse and Janet is running out of ideas. While Cassie is resting, Nirrti appears - she came back through the stargate with SG1. Nirrti offers to cure Cassie in exchange for them letting her go and letting her take a vial of Cassie's blood. While SG1 and Hammond are discussing what to do, Janet takes a gun and goes to threaten Nirrti. Nirrti cures Cassie under duress and they let her go, but refuse to allow her to take Cassie's blood.

Analysis

Firstly I have to say, Janet absolutely ROCKS in this episode. The way Teryl Rothery flips between her usual business-like doctor mode and the scared, vulnerable mother who doesn't know what to do or how to protect her child is just stunning, and I adore the way her relationship with Cassie is portrayed, it's so very real. But mostly she does an amazing job of conveying the awful position that Janet is in in this episode. It just shows why in normal circumstances doctors aren't allowed to treat their families, but I guess Cassie's situation is unique.

Secondly, the other thing I really love about this episode is the way it fits in to the overall Nirrti arc. I think it's one of Stargate's great strength that even though on the whole it's an episodic show, it can and does call on things that happened seasons before, and also foreshadows or lays seeds or foundations for things that will happen in the future. The Nirrti story only plays out over four episodes in total, over the course of six seasons -Singularity, Fair Game, Rite of Passage and Metamorphosis. This episode draws on what we saw in the two earlier episodes (and as an aside, I adore the musical call-back to Singularity with the music that plays over the cold open - essentially this is Cassie's theme), and it also prepares for Metamorphosis, of which more below.

Cassie is an interesting character I always think, because she's one of those who seems to have more of an impact than her infrequent appearances would indicate. I guess the obvious explanation is that she is considered as part of the extended SG1 family, as Janet's daughter, and especially where Sam is concerned. Fanon aside, this episode does bear that interpretation out, but I find it interesting to note how her relationships with the various members of SG1 are portrayed here. She and Sam are obviously still close (love the fact that Cassie has a quantum physics textbook right at the end!), showing that the bond they developed in Singularity has continued, and I think it's not too much to infer that Cassie probably played a role in the development of Sam and Janet's relationship. As for the rest of SG1, well certainly from in the way Daniel and Teal'c behave throughout this episode I don't think they're particularly close to Cassie at all. Daniel seems concerned, but more on Janet's behalf. Teal'c seems notably less so - he is the only one to support Hammond and suggest that letting Cassie die would be a reasonable price to pay - and his focus throughout is more on Nirrti. Jack is different though, which interests me. He is almost as prominent as Sam, and very much allied with her throughout. Note how in the first scene in the infirmary it's Jack who comes in to join Sam and Janet; Jack is the one who stays with Cassie when Nirrti's on the loose; it's Jack who is the most vociferous opponent of the idea that they should not give to Nirrti's demands, backed up by Sam (and note the blocking - Sam and Jack on one side of the table, united visually too); and when they return with Nirrti to the iso room for Nirrti to heal Cassie, Jack goes into the room with Sam and Janet, while Daniel, Teal'c and Hammond watch from the gallery (compare Entity, for example). Jack clearly does have a closer relationship with Cassie than Daniel or Teal'c do. Cassie talking about Jack calling knights 'horses' supports this, as does of course the fact that in Learning Curve Jack was well known at Cassie's old school. It's another little facet of Jack's character which comes out here - his general love for kids that we see time and time again has clearly led him to keep up his relationship with Cassie too. I love that little shot we get of Jack looking back at Cassie with Janet and Sam right after Nirrti has healed her, as he leaves the room. There's a real fondness on his face as he looks at the scene, and maybe it's just my shipper specs on overdrive, but I can't help thinking that part of that is affection at Sam's relief, as well as Cassie. And an empathy too I think for both Sam and Janet - of course Jack knows full well how it feels to lose a child.

A few other things I noticed before I move on to the shippy stuff:

Why does Jack send Sam back to report to the SCG while Daniel and Teal'c continue to explore Nirrti's lab? Surely Sam the super scientist would be more useful staying on Hanka and Jack coming back to Earth? As we see in the scene with Nirrti's weird implements it's quite clear Jack's not actually adding much value there! I think it's quite an obvious ploy by Jack to let Sam come back to see Cassie quicker, don't you?

The revelation that the reason Nirrti exterminated the population of Hanka was probably in order to cover up her genetic experiments so that the SG teams wouldn't figure it out is an uncomfortable one I think, and oddly glossed over, it seems to me. Basically this is saying that indirectly the SGC were responsible for the Hanka disaster, which does fit in to the long-running theme of how the SG programme affects the planets they visit (only just foregrounded in the last episode, of course), but I guess there wasn't really room to explore the implications of this in this episode here.

Anyone else think this exchange is foreshadowing Meridian and Janet's attitude to Daniel's ascension?

Cassie: Maybe dying is part of the transformation.
Janet: (vehemently) I don't care whether it is or not!

I feel I should say something about Daniel and Janet's relationship here. I've never ever seen the Dan/Jan ship, but the line where Daniel grabs her hand and offers his support ('if you need anything') is lovely, and about the one moment in the whole series where I can really see why a lot of people do ship these two. Apologies to any Dan/Jan shippers, this isn't a criticism of the ship, just me saying that I just don't see it really

[josiane]

Implications for Sam and Jack

This episode doesn't really have much shippy in it per se, but when you look at it in context then there's a lot. After all, the next time we meet Nirrti is in Metamorphosis, which is one of the shippiest episodes of the so-called 'dry period' for the ship in S5 & 6, and this episode is packed full of foreshadowing for that episode. Jack's decision to argue for and let Nirrti go in this episode comes back to bite him and SG1 in spectacular style then, and of course it's Sam who ends up being in most danger. So essentially here is another example of a decision Jack makes almost killing Sam. It's no wonder these two are so messed up considering how often that happens, what with Entity of course, but also the whole thing with Fifth. Although of course from the perspective of the regs, it's not the making of the decision itself that is important, it's how deeply they feel the result of it, and I think it is clear that Jack feels the danger he puts Sam in very keenly. It shows that no matter how much the two of them try to be professional and keep their feelings locked away, the essential danger, that they will cause harm to the other and to themselves in turn, remains as long as they stay on the same team.

I absolutely love the way that the sense of this inevitably going to end up hurting Jack is conveyed in that last scene where Jack sees Nirrti off through the gate, with the doomy music and the close-up of Jack's face at the end. And this exchange particularly:

Nirrti: At least you have honoured this much of our bargain. In your place, I doubt I would have done the same.
I'll keep that thought alive.

Because of course we end up with the exact same situation in Metamorphosis, with Jack pleading with Nirrti to heal Sam. There's also Jack's line "Who cares if we let her go? What difference does it make in the grand scheme of things?" - talk about tempting fate!

This exchange is interesting when you compare it to Entity and S/J in general:

With all due respect, General, it's not like negotiating with terrorists.
That's exactly what it is, Colonel. You're letting your emotions get in the way.
Yes I am, shouldn't you be?

Why is it different for Cassie? Because she's a child, she's not military, there's no chain of command to prevent him acting in the way his instinct tells him to. I think here we get an insight into just what instincts Jack has to suppress when it comes to Sam.

I'm putting this next observation here because I think it does actually give an insight into Sam and Jack too. The scene where Sam brings the chess set in and Cassie floats the knight ends with this line from Sam: "You know if you take a close look, they really are horses." It fits right in with what she says in Redemption where she tells Jack he has a way of seeing things at their simplest, and despite the fact it doesn't come out entirely as she intends it to, it is a compliment. Sam is well aware of her own tendency to over-analyse and I think genuinely admires the way Jack can see right to the heart of a matter and understand it. She agrees with Cassie that Jack does "always pretend he's not as smart as he really is", but is taking it one step further, and showing that she even believes his dumbness is a kind of smart too. I do love though that this scene is followed straight away by the magnets scene (which I adore!) - it seems to both underline and contradict the previous scene by showing up this very paradox of Jack both seeing straight to the heart of the matter but also being a bit dumb. And from a shippy point of view I love to contrast Sam's reaction to Jack in that scene with the reaction from Daniel, Janet and Teal'c on the other side of the table. Sam watches Jack very closely, after an initial surprised lift of the eyebrows, and I find her expression a little bit difficult to pin down - I think there's an affection there, and a slight bemusement, and perhaps a bit of admiration in line with what I just said before about admiring his 'simple' view. Whereas the other three just look like Jack's gone off on one!

Hmm, and considering I didn't think I'd have much to say about this episode I seem to have rambled rather a lot, so perhaps this is where I should stop!

[hlndncr]

I have to disagree with you here. I don't support the Asgard playing gods - actually, I'm still unsure why they did it at all - but I really don't see what other choice did they have in this situation.

People of K'Tau believe in the Asgard just like people of Earth believe in God/Jesus/Allah/Shiva etc. It's real to them. Try to put yourself in their shoes: if our God suddenly appeared and admitted that he's just some incredibly advanced alien, what would you do? Would you believe it? I don't think so. Just like I don't believe that people of K'Tau would believe Freyr, Thor and the others, even if they would have shown up in their spaceships, started to explain technology etc. They might just think that it's some trick of SG-1 or something. In any case, I don't see what good it would do.

Garwin and the people of Cimmeria didn't act like that when they learned about Thor. Although I will say they also seemed to be a much more sensible and self-directed people.

And while to an extent I agree with the Asgard that there is something in us as human beings that needs to believe in something greater than ourselves, I still think they are encouraging an unnatural dependence; else why would they have provided a false image of a false god to relay cryptic messages to them. It's one thing to do like Kendra and interpret the thunder as a message from the gods according to your beliefs, but to actually plant those messages. What was the purpose, other than to perpetuate the deception?

I like that the ending was left open to interpretation, but, like Evenstar, I would have loved it if there was no happy end. It was a perfect ep to end in tragedy. (I'm heartless, I know)

I'm not a fan of tragedy so I'm glad of the happy ending. And who would have benefited from a tragic ending? The Asgard weren't going to change. I hesitate to say we learned our lesson here because we continued to fiddle with the stargates and DHDs (for example Avenger 2.0), but hopefully we showed a greater caution after this regardless of outcome.

[Rachel500]

Faith vs Science

In spoilers for those who wish to avoid this debate...

Spoiler:

Historically, there is evidence that says organised religion with a political interest in maintaining the status quo isn't conducive to scientific discovery which would undermine its authority. However, while I'm personally not particularly religious, I have to say that faith in and of itself is not a barrier to scientific development. People can believe deeply in God and still be scientifically curious and signed up to scientific discovery.

I would agree in the case of K'Tau, I'm not certain that they would have believed the truth about their Gods even if the Asgard had agreed to at least show up and support SG1 verbally to the K'Tau especially post the rocket incident. In many ways, I think the conflict wasn't so much faith and science for the K'Tau as it was where to place their faith.

It's that philosophical question of: if you fall into a pit, do you (a) believe that God means for your faith to be tested, stay in the pit and believe He/She will eventually save you by sending help your way, or (b) do you believe God means for your faith to be tested, work to climb out of the pit and believe He/She will give you the strength and endurance to make it out? (And obviously, (c) do you believe that God has nothing to do with it and make a decision based only on facts - can you climb out, is the pit near to civilisation, are there snakes in the pit, etc).

In this sense, I agree that the ending which seems to underscore to the K'Tau that doing nothing but praying and hoping their God would intervene doesn't serve their development well - especially given we know the truth about their Gods. After all, the lesson learned here, will not serve them well given another natural disaster (flood, fire, huge meteor heading for the planet, etc) where again the Asgard can't interfere under the rules of their treaty with the Goa'uld.

Regardless of anything else, I think this is why Jack, who is so the type to take action, finds the K'Tau's decision to effectively take the 1st option in not leaving the planet after the incident with the rocket, (ie they choose to stay in the pit), frustrating. Add to that that he knows the God they are praying to won't help them and hence the anger when it all goes to pot on the planet.

And to make this vaguely on topic, I think this is actually a trait Jack and Sam (and the others in SG1) share: that they really won't sit back and watch some disaster unfold if they can help it, and if they have to sit back they won't like it, that their world view is very much - let's climb out of the pit (although whether they believe in God is a discussion for another day). They're very in synch in that way.