Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[josiane]

I really should have gone to bed already but never mind...

Yes, and that is why I have such an issue with how easily she gives in to his request to go glowy like that. *shudder* Poor Sam; she does seem to have a thing about aliens using strange devices to help her "feel what they feel" on her. What you need young lady is a nice sensible not-at-all-slightly-lunatic-fringe police officer... uh, no, actually you don't but it'lll take you a while to suss that out for yourself.

Yeah it does seem odd that Sam is so, uh, receptive to this kind of thing Personally I put it down to her general emotional naivete and awkwardness, but still, I do want to shake her when she doesn't just kick these weirdo aliens right into touch!

I'm not going to quote and comment on all the lovely observations you make about Sam and Jack here, except to say you've picked out everything I see too. There's one additional point here; when Sam is trying to tell Jack, in a round about way, that Orlin is still around and he gives his "authorisation" for her to continue gathering data about him. Of course neither of them outright say Orlin is still there but I'm fairly certain Jack knows exactly what Sam is saying. And it's the fact he knew and gave his roundabout approval of her actions, that gives him the chance to actively defend her against Simmons later on.

I'm not sure about this. It does make sense for that scene, but then again it doesn't quite square up with me with the following scene where Jack (and Teal'c) turn up at Sam's and he's so surprised she's got company. And I think it's equally plausible that he only really puts two and two together right at the end when Simmons is having a go - which could also explain his sudden switch from guilty and apologetic to defending her and saying he knew all along. But then quite what he did think she was going on about in this 'hypothetically' scene I have no idea!

Absolutely my favourite scene here is the one where Jack and Teal'c turn up with the pizza. I just love the play of emotions across both Jack and Sam's face here. Jack is surprised, a little disapointed and distinctly put out that she's got someone to have a life with right there. Sam's all smiles but very forced. Is this because she doesn't want them to come in, see Orlin and force her to either fess up or outright lie to her CO? Or is it because it's Jack, standing there offering to spend free time with her and she's bummed she can't do it even though she really wants to? And yes, Teal'c is a very obvious chaperone here; the scene would have been far more romantically significant had Jack turned up alone, and much less so if Daniel had been there too but asit is, just right to drive home the point that it's Jack who wants to be there supporting her. Jack would never have turned up alone though; at this point they both know that leisure time alone is just not going to happen.

I think it's a bit of both, and mostly is just a bumbling reaction to him turning up out of the blue just when she's been blindsided by Orlin's sudden corporeality. She's just gone through the whole hypothetically charade with Jack and has come to her decision she's going to hide Orlin for a while, then he goes and makes himself solid which makes that automatically more difficult, and then Jack appears with pizzas and movies and Teal'c as if this is totally normal. Not surprising she isn't exactly smooth in her handling of it. In fact, in some ways, this scene is a complete reversal of most of the scenes between Sam and Jack in this episode. Mostly we have Sam kind of in the supplicant position, uncertain, asking for reassurance, and Jack obviously wanting to escape the situation. Here it's exactly the other way around.

Just to go off on a little tangent about that, my feeling about all those fishing invites (subsequent to the first which I think was a genuine invite). I think part the reason Jack asks knowing Sam will say no is because it's his way of saying "We're ok" and maintaining the self-pretense that their feelings and platonic.

*nods* Yes, absolutely The offer being more important than the activity indeed.

I do think this is the start of Jack pulling back from, not just Sam but all of them, emotionally, and I think this itself causes problems with his relationships with others, most notably Daniel who seems to butt heads with Jack a lot more over this season, to the point where I think, at is "death" things are quite difficult. Mre of that at the relevant time though

Good point that it's true of all of them. And it really is an S5 thing, because in S6 he's far more relaxed and less distant again, which I think is a reaction to realising that his pulling back only caused hurt and didn't stop Daniel dying... but again that's a discussion for a future point!

[Rachel500]

Just stopping by to say fantastic review, josi!

Will be back in the morning when my brain is more up to the challenge of saying something more than that

[Cagranosalis]

I'm not sure about this. It does make sense for that scene, but then again it doesn't quite square up with me with the following scene where Jack (and Teal'c) turn up at Sam's and he's so surprised she's got company. And I think it's equally plausible that he only really puts two and two together right at the end when Simmons is having a go - which could also explain his sudden switch from guilty and apologetic to defending her and saying he knew all along. But then quite what he did think she was going on about in this 'hypothetically' scene I have no idea!

Hmm, well, yes you may have a point. Jack was bursting for a pee at the time so it's possible his mind wasn't quite on Sam's rambling there. Then again, it could tie up in that, at this point, all we know of the alien is it's a non corporeal thing that takes occasional human form. Jack - standing on Sam's doorstep - does not know he's flesh and blood and capable of far more than just glowing. I don't think he's even considered that the glowy alien thing might have the hots for her (why on earth he wouldn't consider this I don't know; all the other aliens do! ) or that it (the alien) is at all capable of, well, shall we say being a real consideration in the *cough* romance department. So I would guess Jack doesn't know it's Orlin there or makes the connection that she's harbouring an alien at that point but realises Sam has a man/date and and he's just surprised to find out she does have a life after all.

Except she doesn't.

Not without you, Jack.

Good point that it's true of all of them. And it really is an S5 thing, because in S6 he's far more relaxed and less distant again, which I think is a reaction to realising that his pulling back only caused hurt and didn't stop Daniel dying... but again that's a discussion for a future point!

And I have lots of lovely interesting things to say about that come the relevant episode too.

[Rachel500]

Ascension

Ooo. Where to start? I warn you now this could get long.

When I first watched this back when it first aired, I remember distinctly thinking - did they forget Sam and Jack care about each other more than they should? Feel feelings? Actually, did TPTB forget they even like each other?

After Entity, in the episodes that followed they had been 99.9% professional with each other for me - with very little hint of any flirty teasing and anything personal slightly awkward. And Ascension seemed the "in your face" moment of breaking Sam and Jack up as a potential couple; it still does.

Now, some years later, I actually think whether it was planned or not, the whole play of the relationship is actually fairly genius. Because effectively D&C did get them together as a couple conceptually even if on-screen they were ostensibly not together; BtS and Entity used the relationship to heighten tension and drama as effectively as though they were a couple, and I would also argue Entity provided the obstacle to them being a couple from an emotional and practical standpoint. But here in Ascension, we effectively see that conceptual idea of them as a couple being broken. If you can imagine for a moment SG1 not being as subtle in the play of this relationship, then you do get a fairly standard TV relationship story-telling: get together - danger/risk but still together - obstacle that tests them to nth degree/break-up - moving on/misunderstanding.

So, from the overall arc to the episode itself.

Sam and Orlin

For many years Orlin remained the only "other" that I really could see Sam being with. I think this mainly had to do with the fact that SPF is a cutie.

That said: in hindsight he does seem to fall into the lunatic fringe of Sam's admirers and has many of their faults - stalking, trying to force his emotions onto her. Orlin's saving grace though is that he does try to save Earth and Reynolds' team (yay for his transferring to the SGC), and ultimately gives his life to save Sam's.

From Orlin's perspective, I do think some of his behaviour is really down to the fact that the guy has been alone a very long time before SG1 turn up on the planet. He's lonely. He sees Sam and I think he's intrigued but they have weapons and I think initially he tries the spirit sharing on her to see whether it would be safe to approach them. He's wrong for doing it without her permission (it is a violation) but I think its his way of mitigating the risk of danger to himself. Only he knocks her out. So he follows her back to the SGC, in part intrigued by what he had learned of Sam in his initial attempt and perhaps also to see that she was OK.

But then he spends time learning how to be human in part by watching her so he can talk with her properly, only his social skills have all the finesse of a bull in a china shop and she rightly calls out the cavalry. I think when Sam agrees to the spirit sharing, he learns just how great a person she is and thats it for Orlin; she has great as he thinks she is and he makes himself human to be with her. At which point, I do think after their conversation he settles for being her friend which is her wish but hoping for something more - and not averse to wooing her with gigantic emeralds. If it hadn't been for the situation on Velona with the weapon, I think Orlin would have continued and Sam may very well have ended up falling in love him - she had definitely come to care about him at the end.

Sam's motivations with Orlin on the spirit sharing I think comes down to frustration; she's just had to attend a psych eval because people think she's nuts because she said an alien followed her home and there's no evidence of that. She knows if she calls the cavalry, it's going to make that situation worse if Orlin disappears on her again - which he admits he would. So, I think she agrees to it because it's the expedient way to deal with him and she feels choiceless and trapped.

However, once she does the glowy-spirit-sharing experience, she realises what Orlin is, and what a powerful alien he is, and I think confirms that while his behaviour is suspect, his intentions are not to do her harm, that he does care about her on some level (although I think she dismisses the idea of him loving her as simply that she was the first woman he saw after a long time). So initially I do think she agrees to his still being around because of the potential value of Orlin the alien who could help them understand the weapon and what happened on Velona. Once Orlin makes himself human to be with her, I think she starts to feel a responsibility towards him and as a woman starts to appreciate, his appreciation for her. And slowly over the short number of days they spend together, he starts to become less the alien she's using for information and more the sweet guy who's cooking her dinner when she gets home. So by the time Simmons plays his cards, Sam does care about Orlin as a person even if she's not in love with him, and I think is hugely saddened by his death.

TBC

[Rachel500]

Sam and Jack

This is really the other relationship which is highlighted through the episode; Sam's interaction is either with Orlin or with Jack. Its's a very subtle showing of what is effectively a love triangle.

OK, let me start with my view that their relationship at this point (before event the episode starts) is very much Jack withdrawing on a personal level, and the emphasis being that they are professional in their professional relationship after the events of Entity and compounded by what happened with Teal'c. But at this point I don't think Sam really 100% believes that the potential of something with Jack is gone because they kind of went this "be professional" route for a little time after BtS too. So I do think Sam very much is still in love with Jack and is effectively waiting him out on the whole professionalism kick while understanding and even complying with his wish for that, believing at some point they'll go back to "normal."

Jack, on the other hand, I do think has decided to protect her (and the rest of SG1) he needs to get some professional and personal distance, and has begun to really step back as evidenced in his actions in the previous episode. (I would agree that deep down his actions are actually to do with him protecting himself from the pain of loss.) I think he does on a conscious level believe that he's let go of the possibility of them, and that it's time to move on even if deep down he knows he still loves her and wants to be with her.

So, that's where the episode opens in respect of their relationship for me.

And then Sam is found lying unconscious.

Jack, I think, is very affected by that because its the first time she's been injured since Entity and I think in part it must bring back some of those emotions. Only then it seems from the SGC's perspective, that Sam has passed out because she's overworking, from the stress of everything that's happened to her including the Entity situation, and I think that just makes Jack feel worse - I think he feels enormously guilty. But because he doesn't want to feel that way and because he can't show her how he feels at all, it all results with him blaming her for not taking care of herself and being rather brusque with her when Sam is told to take time off and leave the SGC, go home and relax. When Sam tries to reach out to him on a personal level, I don't see him being teasing at all, he sounds impatient and his "as we met" seems a little bitter to me; he's just eager to get away from her.

In contrast, I do think when she reports Orlin and the team is in the house, he's managed to get his emotions wrangled back from the immediacy of seeing her unconscious again, and his primary concern is the threat to her. Like Josi, I think he knows what concerns Sam and here in contrast to the previous day, he does take time to reassure her. I also agree the offer to stay is made with the knowledge that she'll probably refuse but is a "I'm here for you" gesture which she can acknowledge but I think it's one that he can't help himself making despite his need to step back.

Only then, the alien doesn't turn up and everyone starts to believe that Sam seeing the alien is another sign of an imminent breakdown caused by the same stress that caused her to pass out on the planet, and I think everything he felt in the aftermath comes back; the guilt, the anger at himself, at her... and he doesn't want to deal with it. He sidesteps the discussion with Daniel and Teal'c about how Sam is, focusing on the facts rather than on the emotions.

When Sam shows up with the camera, I do think in part the conversation is not helped by the fact that he's on the way to the bathroom but, again, he's brusque with her, eager not to have to deal with her - again because I think he can't stand the thought that he could be responsible for her being unwell in any way. She, on the other hand, does try and tell him with the hypothetical situation about Orlin but I don't think Jack fully gets it. I think he realises that she's hinting she's still seeing the alien but I think he believes she's nuts - he even tells her that.

But after she's left, again, he can't seem to help himself (and I rather think there was a Teal'c/locker room "this is very difficult, O'Neill" moment) and is almost pulled magnetically back into reaching out to her by taking Teal'c and pizza to just be with her and help support her because no matter how guilty he feels he wants to be there for her.

And for me that moment on her doorstep is really where everything starts to get miscommunicated between the two of them.

Because I do think Sam is completely flustered; she's just agreed with Jack to get evidence before she starts with the alien talk again; she has a plan and suddenly Orlin and then Jack both throw it into disarray - Orlin by making himself human, Jack by showing up on her doorstep. So, I think she's panicking unsure what to do, and latches onto Jack's joking assumption that she's got a date without thinking it through.

Only then he tells her "good for you" because even though he's clearly devastated he's trying to do the right thing in letting her go.

And then she's devastated because from her perspective he's actively encouraging her to be with someone else which she takes to mean he isn't interested in her that way anymore.

It's the elevator scene that will play out later with Pete but here it's on the doorstep.

After which, I think they avoid each other for the most part, helped by Sam working on the weapon and the next time they really seem to be pushed together is in the office when everything comes to a head with Simmons.

And I think they both feel crushed. Jack because there are pictures of Sam with someone else seemingly confirming that she's had a relationship with another man and moved on from her feelings for him (underscoring to him that she would quickly find someone else, that he isn't good enough for her, etc). And Sam because she thinks for a moment Jack knew about the spying and even when she realises he didn't, because she realises he didn't believe her at all. It's only when Jack finally starts to defend her that they seem able to move on from that moment of mutually feeling betrayed. Unfortuantely though, when Jack shows her he continues to trust her by sending her into the house, Sam's decision to follow Orlin must seem to Jack like a betrayal of trust again; that she's chosen Orlin over him. It's probably only when Sam gets back from Velona and the events there that he accepts she made the decision from a tactical pov.

The fallout of Ascension for their relationship though is huge:

Jack thinks Sam moved on with someone else.

Sam thinks Jack doesn't want to be with her.

It's sets up the distance that will continue between them until Desperate Measures.

[josiane]

Great analysis, Rachel

I really like your point about Jack feeling responsible for Sam being unwell/potentially mentally unstable, and how that fear and guilt and sense of responsibility informs his actions throughout the episode. I have to admit I hadn't really looked at it from that point of view, but of course it makes complete sense because Jack does feel responsible.

I also do see your point about Orlin, and yes he was lonely for a very long time, but I still can't get over the essential creepiness of his violation and pushing on her emotions. I do see why Sam did grow fond of him, and I think this was born of her own isolation in this episode, almost - I guess much like how she grew fond of Pete. I think unfortunately Sam is susceptible to this kind of guy, as we see with Narim, with Martouf, with Orlin and with Pete. She is not really strong when it comes to romance, because she's essentially not very good at it, afraid of getting hurt and afraid of exposing herself emotionally. So when someone comes along who is sweet and very demonstrative of his feelings towards her, she lets them carry her along. And again I don't think it's at all coincidental that that's the complete opposite of Jack.

[Petra]

Ehh, I just couldn't stay away from this discussion..but I haven't rewatched the ep and am going from my (faulty) memory.

Rachel, I used your posts to bounce off because they were so well written and touched on the things I wanted to comment on, I'm not trying to argue with you and if I came across somewhat aggressive it was unintentional.

Sam and Orlin

For many years Orlin remained the only "other" that I really could see Sam being with. I think this mainly had to do with the fact that SPF is a cutie.

That said: in hindsight he does seem to fall into the lunatic fringe of Sam's admirers and has many of their faults - stalking, trying to force his emotions onto her. Orlin's saving grace though is that he does try to save Earth and Reynolds' team (yay for his transferring to the SGC), and ultimately gives his life to save Sam's.

As I mentioned some time ago I used to like Orlin as a character and as Sam's suitor, but I've changed my mind since then. Why? I just don't find his actions redeemable. No one denies that Orlin's sacrifice to save Sam and Reynold's team is commendable, but how does it cancel out his behaviour towards Sam? For me they are on completely different levels; personal and galactic/professional. How does the fact that he's willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good makes up for the fact that he's a stalker forcing himself on complete stranger privately? Actually I see paralels here between him and Jonas Hanson. He also wasn't a bad person and obviously believed in greater good, personal sacrifice and honour of serving others - just like Orlin - because otherwise he wouldn't be selected for the SGC. But I don't believe that anyone would think that just because he was a great soldier it excused his "lunatic fringe" or emotional abuse of Sam. And that's why for me Orlin's actions at the end and his actions towards Sam are two different things.

And yes, SPF is a cutie but since when good looks mean you can get away with everything? No wait, don't answer that..

From Orlin's perspective, I do think some of his behaviour is really down to the fact that the guy has been alone a very long time before SG1 turn up on the planet. He's lonely. He sees Sam and I think he's intrigued but they have weapons and I think initially he tries the spirit sharing on her to see whether it would be safe to approach them. He's wrong for doing it without her permission (it is a violation) but I think its his way of mitigating the risk of danger to himself. Only he knocks her out. So he follows her back to the SGC, in part intrigued by what he had learned of Sam in his initial attempt and perhaps also to see that she was OK.

Ok, firstly I don't buy that he's afraid because SG-1 have guns. He's non-corporeal, they can't do anything to him!
Secondly, your explanation as to why he follows her to Earth works for me, BUT: why does he follow her to her home? If he was so lonely on Velona - well, he just found himself on a planet with 6 billion of habitants! By this point he knows Sam's alright and if he still wants to approach her wouldn't it be better for him to lurk around Colorado and actually observe how people behave and what are acceptable social norms? Instead he watches her at home..and it just gives me creeps. If he watched her brush her teeth is it unreasonable to assume he also watched her shower? And that's just squicks me out and puts me off him for good, I don't care how great and cute SPF is. Plus you know that the biggest psychopats are also the biggest charmers For me his behaviour is simply inexcusable.

Having said that, I agree completely with your take on how the whole situation looked like for Sam.

Sam & Jack

Hmm, I don't quite see this ep like Rachel does but I do agree with her conclusions, that at the end Jack thinks Sam moved on and she thinks he doesn't care anymore.

I still think Sam's behaviour when Jack and Teal'c show up is very strange, OOC even. Sam isn't panic-y sort of person and the way she's acting in that scene, with her "Disappear!" and all, you'd think she suffers a full-blown panic attack. As for Jack's part, I agree that he felt guilty for his earlier brusque behaviour and wanted to show Sam that he (and the guys) still believe in her and support her. Her apparent date caught him completely off-guard though.

I also seem to be the only person here who doesn't read anything into S/J talk in the corridor. I take it at face value - Jack was dismissive because he really had to go to the bathroom (which is why I love this scene; how often do you see people on tv doing such mundane tasks as going to the loo?)

And that's all I can say without rewatching the ep. I don't recall all this awkardness you guys keep mentioning, so I can't comment. But nevertheless I remember thinking that "Ascension" closes another chapter in S/J relationship.

[Cagranosalis]

I apologise for not quoting the relevant points but the MQ on GW is hideous to use right now so...something occured to me at 3am this moning (*glances at clock: yesterday morning ) wwhile I was trying to fall asleep.

On the whole Orlin being stalkerish and the violation of Sam's privacy and creep out factor; I think part of the problem here is we set everyone by human standards. It's reasonable to assume - with so many cultures ot there - that in some societies, this kind of behaviour is an acceptable way to behave / woe the woman of your choice. This kind of hearkens back to a discussion we had about Teal'c's apparent infidelity with Shau'nauc and then later with Krista and the conclsion I drew that perhaps Jaffa moral code does not consider pologamy to be a morally corrupt way to live. I think it's entirely possible Orlin comes from a world where his behaviour would go without a blink of an eye and, likelywise, the behavoiur of Narim (who is also a bit creepy). Just a random thought.


And...
Rachel, I like your potted "if SG-1 were a soap opera" analysis if Sam and Jack's relationship. I think that's pretty spot on.

Petra, no I didn't really see anything particularly shippy/telling in that corridor scene either and tend to think Jack's focus was more on his need to pee than what Sam was actually saying. Nevertheless, he's a smart guy and I think he took in enough of her conversation to out two and two together that she thought the alien was still there. And, at least, by this point I think he was more inclined to believe her that someone was there and she wasn't going loopy after all so maybe that's all there is to see. If you've got particularly sensitive ship tinited glasses you can spin a beautifully shippy web around just that actually.

[starlover]

*shuffles in*

In a weird mood Cags let me do a guest review. I hope it isn't too bad.

Synopsis from Rachel(from her Aftershocks S5/S6)

SG1 are under heavy fire; Jack is cut off from the gate with a young African-American lieutenant called Tyler who has been injured and he orders Sam, Daniel and Teal'c who have managed to get to the gate to get reinforcements. The three return to the SGC where they inform General Hammond that Jack and Tyler are cut off from the gate and they need to return immediately. Hammond asks them who Tyler is. They remind him that Tyler is the fifth member of SG1, recently assigned and someone they have been training over the past few weeks. Hammond denies all knowledge of Tyler and tells the team to report to the infirmary. They insist on being allowed to go back for Jack but Hammond orders them to relinquish their weapons and under threat of being fired on by the gate room SFs they comply. Jack, meanwhile, manages to get himself and Tyler to an old ruin which they can defend.

Janet informs Hammond that there is nothing wrong with Sam, Daniel and Teal'c but she's waiting on some tests. She asks what Hammond is doing about Jack and he informs her that until they know why SG1 has been compromised he can't send anyone else to the planet. In the infirmary, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c discuss the various reasons why nobody remembers Tyler and they realise that perhaps their memories are at fault. Sam hacks into the main computer and learns there is no Lt. Tyler. She also finds evidence that someone is investigating the team from outside the base.

Hammond manages to contact Jack via a UAV but when Jack mentions Tyler, he realises the Colonel is also suffering from whatever has affected the others. Colonel Simmons turns up; he has been ordered to perform an independent investigation on the Tyler issue.

When Janet examines a strange substance on Teal'c's jacket, she gets a flash of Tyler and she works out that the memory of Tyler is some kind of subliminal suggestion caused by or made possible by the chemical. Sam encourages her to find the evidence to support her theory noting that only Janet is free to find it and she may be Jack's last hope. As Jack and Tyler bond on the planet; the other members of SG1 undergo interrogation by Simmons. They all hold their own; Sam correctly deduces that Simmons is the mysterious computer user who has been investigating them. Janet presents her evidence and while Simmons considers her compromised, Hammond believes her.

On the planet, Tyler has revealed his true nature to Jack after feeling guilty at putting the other man in danger – his race, the Reole has been hunted for their unique ability. The Jaffa attack and just as they are surrounded, the rest of SG1 show up. The team head to the gate but the Jaffa are everywhere. As Jack, Sam and Teal'c go to get more firepower, Tyler zats Daniel and runs off. He tries to be a hero – leading the Jaffa away from the gate to enable SG1 to escape. He is captured but SG1 rescue him. As Tyler leaves, Jack tells him that before the Reole bury their gate and disappear, that they could be friends.

Review

To start with my initials thoughts of this episode where: “jack. hot. scruff. wow. SG-1. Finally. oh . Jack. scruff. Nice.”
(finally because I haven’t seen an episode of SG-1 in almost a month)

I liked the episode. It is all about not leaving anyone behind, which is in my humble opinion something SG-1 is based about. You see this in action in this episode. SG-1(except Jack) does everything to save Jack(and Tyler). I like that about SG-1. It’s about the team and they will do everything to keep every single member of the team alive, even if they get in trouble for that themselves.

The storyline with Tyler being an alien is good as well. I like it how SG-1 is sure of everything and does everything to convince Hammond that Tyler is real. Secondly they do think about what the others think and look into it; knowing that something could have influenced them or their surrounding area.

Thirdly there is Simmons; a first class creep IMHO. It is interesting that he gets other stuff in it with the investigation and actually does everything to get SG-1 out of the way or get them mad. Ugh I just hate this guy. Plus I think the actor has been in another series I’ve seen and I disliked him in there as well. Doesn’t help me with liking him one tiny bit.

The investigations with Teal’c, Daniel and Sam are obviously corrupt and are almost not about the current topic but just something to get them rid. Which is just annoying, but overall I must say that this storyline isn’t really interesting. It is the whole politics thing all over again which I just find a bit boring to be honest.
The last part of that is with Hammond trying to get Simmons of the base and that is good to see. Hammond is a true and good leader of the SGC; he cares about his people and goes through the fire for them. *huggles Hammond*

The other storyline is then of course the one with Tyler and Jack. I must say that Jack looks hot like this…errr I’m just a fangirl on some moments LOL.

I also like it how Jack bonds with Tyler. I know he is made to believe that Tyler is a real member of SG-1 and doesn’t doubt it, but still you would think that perhaps he would give a new member of his team a hard time first before they prove himself(or this can be something of the drug as well) but it is nice to see how protective Jack is of his team members.

I know everything Jack does in the episode is also for himself, but you do notice, that even with how “new” this “team member” is that Jack again puts his life for that of himself. I think that really makes him a good leader and makes me understand why Jack is a Colonel…

The end of the story is awesome and I like it how SG-1 keeps saving Tyler/the Reole(when he surrenders); they don’t care about who it is but an individual is always important for them and they are just out there to save anyone from the Goa’uld(if possible).

Everything is about trusting SG-1. In SG-1’s words: “We don’t leave our people behind.” *happy sigh*.
I’m sorry if this review didn’t make any sense …but it’s late and my mind is a jumble


Implications for S/J
There isn’t a lot of S/J in here since I more see it as SG-1 as a team and not as S/J, but you could see the willingness from Sam’s side to do everything to get Jack back as something. I like it when they try everything to save each other.

Plus of course their impeccable timing of saving Jack and Sam being the first to ask if Jack is alright is something, but it’s again a thing that any other friend/team mate would ask.

Overall like I said I don't think there are any implications. First of all because S/J almost don't have a scene together, but the few they have together they are in the field and thus can't show a lot of things about each other. I do think that with S/J it is more subtle and about the body language and short sentences like "are you okay" can be a whole conversation for them, but I don't really see an *implication* more a subtle hint that you can see that they care a lot about each other.

*runs out again*

[Rachel500]

The Fifth Man

Firstly, nice review!

Secondly, I can't seem to green anybody...

Generally

I love this episode. Partly because Jack is scruffy and hot, and I am shallow that way sometimes. Partly because this episode as Jann said really does focus on the "leave no-one behind" mantra of the SGC, and SG1 in particular.

I love Tyler. I love how he bonds with Jack; I love how he comes to the desire to want to sacrifice himself for SG1 and Jack. I wanted Tyler to join SG1 for real. When Tyler asks why they rescued him because he's not one of their people and Jack replies "Could have fooled me", I admit I get teary.

I also really feel for Hammond. Here he is having just resolved one instance of Sam having what seemed to be an imaginary friend in Ascension, and suddenly all of SG1 have one.

However, despite my love for this episode I do hate the whole Simmons stuff which really knocks out the pacing of the episode even if it is vital to increasing the danger to Jack by delaying the return to the planet and also from a series' arc perspective. And I do like the humour (Daniel and his "we have Lt Tyler issues" and Teal'c's "it would be immediately apparent as I would not hesitate to kill you").

Sam and Jack

This episode is really a team affair with everyone pulling together against Simmons to get back to Jack before its too late.

However, there are glimmers:

Sam's whole attitude here in the gate room is very surprising. She comes close to insubordination with Hammond when refused permission to head back for Jack and for a second there you can see her calculating the probabilities of success if she forced the issue.

I think part of this is down to her disillusionment with having been spied on by her own government, and that sense of betrayal. Part of it I think is her own desire to reaffirm with her team her allegiance and trust in them, and them to and in her; she's putting SG1 first.

I also love the scene with Janet where Sam effectively talks Janet into investigating without admitting she's been compromised because Janet is the best hope they have of solving everything and enabling them to get a rescue team out to Jack. While Sam would probably do this if it had been Daniel or Teal'c left behind, given the echo of A Hundred Days scene between the two, there is that almost unspoken acknowledgement of Sam's motivations also being her caring for Jack more than she should.

Jack, meanwhile, is really focused on survival. However, there is a nice sense that he never gives up believing that the cavalry will arrive, and there's a nice moment when Tyler asks if the place is defensible until Major Carter arrives back and Jack replies "Major Carter and a whole lot of her friends." (or something like that) - which isn't shippy but I like it anyway because it shows his faith in her on a professional level despite events in Ascension.

And I also like that Sam just hands him ammo when they rescue him in the nick of time - again, not shippy but just a nice moment of professionally being in synch. Which is why I think that although the events in Ascension had to have rocked the SG1 boat in terms of trust, etc, that clearly on a professional, team level Sam and Jack must have moved forward from that even if on a personal level I think they were probably still hurting.

[josiane]

Great review Jann!

I liked the episode. It is all about not leaving anyone behind, which is in my humble opinion something SG-1 is based about. You see this in action in this episode. SG-1(except Jack) does everything to save Jack(and Tyler). I like that about SG-1. It’s about the team and they will do everything to keep every single member of the team alive, even if they get in trouble for that themselves.

The storyline with Tyler being an alien is good as well. I like it how SG-1 is sure of everything and does everything to convince Hammond that Tyler is real. Secondly they do think about what the others think and look into it; knowing that something could have influenced them or their surrounding area.

Absolutely, and as Rachel said too, this episode really is a showcase for that. I think it's actually all the more powerful that the catalyst for the leaving no man behind here is an alien. We're kind of used to SG1 doing this for each other, but throwing in a new character that we know nothing about (at least at the start!) as the one that they refuse to leave behind (the rest of SG1 are equally focused on Jack and Tyler, of course, but the emphasis for Jack is on Tyler) really highlights the strength of this mantra for them.

I also like it how Jack bonds with Tyler. I know he is made to believe that Tyler is a real member of SG-1 and doesn’t doubt it, but still you would think that perhaps he would give a new member of his team a hard time first before they prove himself(or this can be something of the drug as well) but it is nice to see how protective Jack is of his team members.

I know everything Jack does in the episode is also for himself, but you do notice, that even with how “new” this “team member” is that Jack again puts his life for that of himself. I think that really makes him a good leader and makes me understand why Jack is a Colonel…

I like this too, as it shows how Jack's toughness is all on the surface and that he cares deeply underneath. Which is one of the things I find really attractive about his character (thunking aside )

I love Tyler. I love how he bonds with Jack; I love how he comes to the desire to want to sacrifice himself for SG1 and Jack. I wanted Tyler to join SG1 for real. When Tyler asks why they rescued him because he's not one of their people and Jack replies "Could have fooled me", I admit I get teary.

So glad I'm not the only one!

I also really feel for Hammond. Here he is having just resolved one instance of Sam having what seemed to be an imaginary friend in Ascension, and suddenly all of SG1 have one.

Indeed, and I think it's interesting that this episode comes right after Ascension really. To jump ahead and pick up on your final point, having a real team-consolidation episode (and especially one with Sam kind of 'leading' the objection to the idea of leaving Jack behind) right after an episode which basically split the team as Ascension did can't be a coincidence

Sam's whole attitude here in the gate room is very surprising. She comes close to insubordination with Hammond when refused permission to head back for Jack and for a second there you can see her calculating the probabilities of success if she forced the issue.

I always pick up on this scene too, and I do think it's one of those moments which can be shippy or just teamy depending on how you want to view it. Either way though it's an impressive show of loyalty - and again remember that it was only in the episode before that we had a reminder of the importance Sam places on acting properly, in her conversation with Jack in her house.

And I also like that Sam just hands him ammo when they rescue him in the nick of time - again, not shippy but just a nice moment of professionally being in synch. Which is why I think that although the events in Ascension had to have rocked the SG1 boat in terms of trust, etc, that clearly on a professional, team level Sam and Jack must have moved forward from that even if on a personal level I think they were probably still hurting.

And just quoting this final bit because it's what I was referring to in one of my points above!

[Petra]

I'd like to come back to Ascension for a moment..

On the whole Orlin being stalkerish and the violation of Sam's privacy and creep out factor; I think part of the problem here is we set everyone by human standards. It's reasonable to assume - with so many cultures ot there - that in some societies, this kind of behaviour is an acceptable way to behave / woe the woman of your choice. This kind of hearkens back to a discussion we had about Teal'c's apparent infidelity with Shau'nauc and then later with Krista and the conclsion I drew that perhaps Jaffa moral code does not consider pologamy to be a morally corrupt way to live. I think it's entirely possible Orlin comes from a world where his behaviour would go without a blink of an eye and, likelywise, the behavoiur of Narim (who is also a bit creepy). Just a random thought.

You know, I thought about "alien culture" defence too. But, again, it doesn't work for me.

If you remember, I'm actually 100% behind the idea that polygamy or even infidelity in marriage can be a part of Jaffa culture. What's more, the more I think about it the more probable it seems. Polygamy usually appeared in societies that lived in difficult natural environment or in which waging wars was a way of living - meaning that there was more women than men (who died hunting, in battles etc) - and since survival meant having a husband in the name of preserving society all women had to be "taken". So it would really fit with what we know of Jaffa. However their culture was established as being different than ours, with different customs, values etc.

I also buy that Narim might not have realised how creepy his behaviour was and it could have been in fact perfectly normal for Tollans. Their culture was also established as different, at least when it came to sharing and conveying feelings ("feelings recorder" from "Enigma" anyone?).

But the thing is, the writers failed to do the same with the Ancients. Their culture seemed to be remarkably similar to Western, particularly American, Earth culture, in which what Orlin did certainly isn't considered normal. And even if we buy that "alien culture defence" (which I disagree with) it still doesn't explain why such powerful, mature and knowledgeable being as an Ancient wouldn't think of possibility of us having a different culture and not take any time to check things out. It is after all a common courtesy to learn basics about the culture in place we travel to. Even us lowly humans know it.

The Fifth Man

Hey Jann, nice to see you! *waves*

What can I say? I like this ep too! Despite their separation I consider it to be a team-y ep with extra focus on Jack (speaking of whom, I also love scruffy!Jack in full military mode. Yes, I'm shallow ) and I do like parts with Simmons (then again, I've always enjoyed rogue NID storyline). And Janet totally rocks!

Sam and Jack

Going from memory again, this ep has always given me shippy feel, mainly due to the scene in Gate Room, when Sam is bordering on insubordination and doesn't even seem to care. And since this is Sam-by-the-book-officer-with-perfect-record-Carter, the implications are huge.

I love how this scene is open for interpretation. On the one hand you can argue that, as Rachel said, Sam's desperation (because I always get a feeling that if it wasn't for Daniel and Teal'c for whom she felt responsible she would have tried to get her way by force) is caused by feeling betrayed by her government coupled with despair that after Daniel and Teal'c's recent close calls she's about to lose another team member, and leave it at that. OTOH you can add her personal feelings for Jack to the mix, as I do She may think that Jack no longer is interested in her in "that way" but that doesn't mean that her feelings for him evaporate overnight just because they went through a rough patch in previous episode. And I think it's really clever to put "The Fifth man", which strongly hints that Sam's feelings are as strong as ever, immidiately after "Ascension" which shows her sharing her life with somebody else, albeit in a weird way

[hlndncr]

Shoot! It seems I'm falling behind. But RL is so crazy. I just spent the last few days with my new nephew who is, not lying, the cutest baby ever (really, no auntie bais necessary)!

OK, so Ascension:

I'm just in awe of Josi's great review and everyone's very thought-provoking comments. I hardly no where to start. I should probably just say touche and leave it at that, but if you knew me at all you would know that's just not my way.

My overall impression:

I thought it was creepy and disturbing the first time I saw it and I'm sticking by that opinion. In fact, I really hated this episode when I first watched it. But I guess, like Sam, I'm a sucker for awkward and slightly disturbing alien charm; so it may actually be growing on me.

Mostly I think I'm in agreement with Josi's pov.

The Look & Feel:
OK, yes I can't resist giving props to Martin Wood, who is great as always. One thing I think he does well here is convey interest in a really slow episode with virtually no action.

There is definitely a psychological thriller vibe to this show that is brilliantly underscored by Joel Goldsmith. His music subtlely draws from the horror genre without ever going over the top. Even in it's brighter moments (time passing montage) or more intimate scenes there is an underlying dissonance in the music that leaves you feeling slightly uncomfortable, which so aptly embodies much of the character interaction going on here.

Characters:

Reynolds: I LOVE HIM! I loved him when he was introduced in Touchstone, and I'll love him to the end. Why couldn't he be Sam's other love interest? (OK, just kidding, that would have caused lots of other problems and I might not have loved him as much then.)

Teal'c: I LOVE HIM! How could we ever live without his steady, reassuring presence and outlandish fashion sense? He's there helping Daniel with the translation. He's there helping Jack reach out to Sam. He pairs a black cowboy hat with a shiny orange shirt?! 'nuff said.

Daniel: I LOVE HIM! (Are you sensing a theme here?) When Sam calls to ask how the translation is going and she's expressing her frustration at being out of the loop, the way he says "I know" says that he really does get her in a way none of the others possibly can. Just those two words told me how much of a devistation loosing Daniel would really be for Sam, which sadly is coming. (And my favorite quote of the episode actually comes from Daniel, when Simmons asks if he needs to be reminded of the danger they're facing and Daniel says, "Could you? Go slow.")

Orlin: DO NOT LOVE HIM, AT ALL! First, I have to say that I do not get the attraction to SPF. Maybe he's just not my type, but I do not think he is very attractive (although I admit that he has looked better). And if you were to put a picture next to an entry for creepy-stalker-guy in the dictionary, this is what he would look like IMO.

I will concede the whole alien angle. And SPF does a good job of becoming more relaxed and slightly more normal as the episode progresses. But honestly, did the guy only watch Lifetime TV (the victim/stalker network for abused and battered women) to learn how to relate with Sam?

Looking for redeeming qualities in Orlin, but just not finding them. He says reading minds is a violation of privacy and then proceeds to tell Sam what he learned about her from touching her mind (or spirit if you will) when he first sees her. At the end on Velona, he says ascending again is the only way he can save her (and himself incidentally) but moments before he was more than willing to kill them all to stop them from firing the weapon. And if stopping the test was so important then why did he spend at least nine days trying to get Sam to play house with him, and leaving her hanging out on a limb, instead of coming forward?

Jack: In contrast to Orlin and most of Sam's other men, Jack would never push her. Which is admirable, but also means he nearly loses her completely to another pushy, emotionally manipulative man (who I feel no need to name) later on down the road. In this episode, I think he is truly concerned about her. I don't think he believes there is an alien until the very end. And I think he is very conflicted and it comes through in his interactions with everyone.

Sam: Oh, Sam--scientifically brilliant, emotionally stunted Sam. One reason I think Sam clings so tightly to her work is because work makes sense to her. Even the wackiness that is traveling to other planets and fighting over-the-top alien bad guys has greater mathmatical precision than intimate relationships in her mind. She just handles them all so badly. But I also think with Orlin she sort of lets her curiosity get the better of her at some point. He is a very old, super powerful alien who knows how to build a stargate in her basement.

As for the Sam/Jack implications:

I agree that this is where their relationship fails apart. They go from being on the same page to being in different libraries (actually Jack is fishing--alone, Sam's at the library--also alone).

Boy all of that sounded so much better in my head. So I think I've said more than enough; and I'm sure others have said it so much better.

Hmmm, now I wonder, do I have time to watch Fifth Man tonight?

[Petra]

Sam: Oh, Sam--scientifically brilliant, emotionally stunted Sam. One reason I think Sam clings so tightly to her work is because work makes sense to her. Even the wackiness that is traveling to other planets and fighting over-the-top alien bad guys has greater mathmatical precision than intimate relationships in her mind. She just handles them all so badly. But I also think with Orlin she sort of lets her curiosity get the better of her at some point. He is a very old, super powerful alien who knows how to build a stargate in her basement.

You know, it never crossed my mind before, but you are right - Orlin is very old! Old like hundreds, or maybe even thousands of years old. Talk about the age difference! Sam really is attracted to older guys, isn't she?

Seriously though, another thing that puts me off of him. I don't mind *some* age difference, but I draw a line at "whole lifetime".

Come to think of it, the same could be said about power dynamics of their hypothetical relationship. Even with her super!genius!brain Sam wouldn't be a match for Orlin's knowledge and experience..

[Nynaeve506]

Petra - I have to agree with you on the fact that we do define things by Western worldview. The problem I think we run into is the "how are we the audience supposed to take it" factor. I think polygamy or infidelity in the Jaffa culture is completely plausible (in fact, one could argue that while Teal'c was upset by Drey'auc's remarriage, he wasn't offended by the fact that she was living in his friend's house so long as it was understood that she was now to be with Teal'c - but I suppose that's a different discussion). As for the Tollan, Narim seems embarrassed when Sam's voice comes through the speakers. (Side note - one of the best authors to depict different made-up cultures was Robert Jordan in the Wheel of Time series IMO).

All that said, I do think that we're also supposed to interpret some of it through the eyes of Westerners. Sam and Jack are really cut from the same cloth. What surprises me (and what I think creates such well nuanced characters) is how very "western" Sam can be. Daniel's all about some inter-cultural exchanges and I think Sam and Jack are both far more black and white (Jack more than Sam IMO) which colors our viewer perception as well.