Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Rachel500]

Threshold

Nice recap, Toomi.

Generally

I have to admit that I wasn't thrilled with this episode on first watching very many years ago. Primarily I think because although it is a teamy episode in many ways as they all try and bring Teal'c back to them, it doesn't feel like a teamy episode to me.

Now, I really do appreciate the backstory behind Teal'c's decision to join SG1, his journey to making the decision to help Jack and the others in the cell in COTG.

Sam is very much used as the pivot though between the two points of view on the treatment of Teal'c; her conversation with Bra'tac contrasting with the conversation with Janet. And it's an interesting choice because normally it would be Daniel who explores the moral/ethical considerations.

Sam and Jack

Yep. Pretty much nothing here from a shippy point of view, although given Jack keeps his distance (sends Sam off with Bra'tac, chooses to go into the observation room rather than join Sam by Teal'c's side), it could be argued for those of us who believe that Jack has chosen to step back from his personal feelings to protect Sam after the events of Entity and reinforced by the events with almost losing Teal'c, that this is evidence of him implementing that decision in the choices he's making from a practical perspective in terms of his actions.

[Treknik]

Threshold

Sam and Jack

Yep. Pretty much nothing here from a shippy point of view, although given Jack keeps his distance (sends Sam off with Bra'tac, chooses to go into the observation room rather than join Sam by Teal'c's side), it could be argued for those of us who believe that Jack has chosen to step back from his personal feelings to protect Sam after the events of Entity and reinforced by the events with almost losing Teal'c, that this is evidence of him implementing that decision in the choices he's making from a practical perspective in terms of his actions.

Jack lost Daniel, he is losing Teal'c and to save the third person on his team, he steps back from Sam. I agree with Rachel that he steps back from his personal feelings to protect Sam. His feelings of loss at the moment have helped him in choosing a direction away from Sam. Better to step away than to feel the pain, because whatever he does won't be good enough to protect her (at least that's what he thinks).

[josiane]

Just running in quickly to say I've had a busy evening so haven't had chance to finish up the Ascension write-up - will post it tomorrow!

[Cagranosalis]

No worries Josi. I did say when we went 2 per week it was to allow for RL causing slippage.

Not that I'm eagerly awaiting this one or anything...

[m_wendy_r]

I am! Ascension was always one of my favourites...

[josiane]

OK so no pressure then...

[m_wendy_r]

I mean, you know, Josi, I've always found that I can be so patient waiting for an episode to appear. I just love waiting, and, you know, this episode is only so-so. No worries.

*runs away*

[Cagranosalis]

Well, personally it gives me a chance to actually rewatch it before the review and have fun trying to pre-empt what you might say about it.

[hedwig]

Jack lost Daniel, he is losing Teal'c and to save the third person on his team, he steps back from Sam. I agree with Rachel that he steps back from his personal feelings to protect Sam. His feelings of loss at the moment have helped him in choosing a direction away from Sam. Better to step away than to feel the pain, because whatever he does won't be good enough to protect her (at least that's what he thinks).

Which to my mind means he's doing it to protect himself ... not to protect Sam.


(*runs out of room before I get chased out ... * )

[m_wendy_r]

Which to my mind means he's doing it to protect himself ... not to protect Sam.


(*runs out of room before I get chased out ... * )

I think he's doing it to protect Sam and himself.

[hlndncr]

Which to my mind means he's doing it to protect himself ... not to protect Sam.


(*runs out of room before I get chased out ... * )

I agree. He believes that his best would never be good enough for Sam; so he thinks he's protecting her, but he's really just protecting himself.

*quickly follows hedwig out of the room to bring her back* (strength in numbers)

[josiane]

OK, I'll warn you all, this has got rather long and rambling and I'm not entirely sure I've managed to explain myself very well at points, but I've been writing and rewriting it for too long so I'm just posting it and you lot can take it away from here!

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Synopsis
SG1 are investigating a devastated world with a mysterious piece of technology. Sam is poking around it when she passes out. They return throught the stargate to get Sam seen to by Janet and to report to Hammond. Hammond sets Colonel Reynolds and SG-16 on to the case as it is going to require extensive studying, and orders Sam to take it easy for a few days. Sam reluctantly goes home, and the next day encounters a strange man who manages to get into her house even though it's locked, and proves his non-corporeality by walking right through her kitchen counter. He tells her that he followed her back through the stargate from the planet with the big honkin' space gun (pending confirmation ) Sam is understandably freaked and calls a Code 3 team in from the SGC to wire up her house with bugs. A couple of days later, the alien seems to have gone, so the bugs are removed, and Sam has to undergo a psych evaluation. When she gets home, the alien has reappeared. He tells her that the reason she passed out on the planet is because he attempted to do some weird mind-sharing thing with her. He professes his undying love for her and asks her to let him try again with the mind-sharing. Sam reluctantly agrees, when he promises that he'll leave afterwards if she wants. So Orlin goes all glowy and brainwashes conveys the strength of his feelings for her. Sam inexplicably doesn't kick him right out on his backside after this and lets him stay. She does find a bug still left in her house, and asks Jack whether the SGC is spying on her, which he denies. Orlin meanwhile makes himself properly corporeal, conveniently just before Jack and Teal'c turn up to entertain Sam for the evening. Orlin tells Sam about what happened with the big honkin' space gun, how he helped the people of the planet build it to defend themselves from the Goa'uld and got himself kicked out of the ascended club for so doing. Back at the SGC, Sam is called in to Hammond's office, where Jack tells her that Hammond has given the go-ahead for Reynolds and SG-16 to activate the weapon, and Simmons shows them evidence that Orlin has been hiding out at Sam's. They all go to Sam's to capture Orlin, but when Sam goes inside, she finds that he has built a mini stargate in her basement. He disappears through it to return to the planet to prevent Reynolds from setting off the weapon, and Sam follows. On the planet, he disconnects the naquadah reactor from the weapon, but gets shot in the process. He is given a second chance by 'the others' and ascends, taking the naquadah reactor with him so it can explode harmlessly in the sky.

Favourite quotes
Can't pick just one for this episode I'm afraid

You know me and sci-fi
or
I have read of a place where humans do battle in a ring of jello
Call Daniel
or
Orlin: Oh, and you're going to need a new microwave/toaster

Analysis
I have very mixed feelings about this episode. There are things about it I really like, like the background on the Ancients (not that we know that's who they are yet), the link with Oma Desala and therefore the foreshadowing/preparation for Daniel's big storyline at the end of the season, and I really like that this preparatory story is given to Sam and not Daniel. I love Orlin in terms of his exposition role for the Ancients, and I love the 'oh, and you're going to need a new toaster' mini stargate in the basement, and I think there's a lot here from a shipper perspective (of which more below). However I really don't like Orlin in relation to Sam - like Narim and Martouf before him he pushes on Sam's emotions and tries to influence her feelings. Poor Sam, with all these alien guys trying to make her love them, is it any wonder she's rather useless in the romantic department? I'd go with the crush on my emotionally distant and unobtainable boss too, in her situation! Particularly when they all just die on her anyway But back to Orlin... I'm particularly uncomfortable with the way he tells her he tried to do the mind-sharing thing on her without her permission first time - isn't this essentially a form of violation? And then he lurks in her house and watches her? Creepsville, frankly. I have to say though, the way that the lurking scenes are filmed is awesome in conveying a sense of threat and uncomfortableness, particularly that fantastic shot where Sam's brushing her teeth and you see her face magnified in the side mirror (*insert Martin Wood fangurl moment here*).

I also like the insight we get into Sam's life (or non-life ) outside of the SGC, seeing that she really is as much of a workaholic as has been implied, and I think this is an important episode for understanding Sam's character, and the missing bit that Hallucination!Jacob hits her over the head with in Grace (oh dear, I fear I am becoming almost Jenn-like in my ability to link pretty much everything to Grace )

continued...

[josiane]

continued...

Sam and Jack
I think Sam and Jack's interactions in this episode are very interesting, and that really this is where the 'estrangement' that is talked about so much for S5 happens. There's a quite distinct tension between them throughout, and I think it's interesting how Jack is both supportive and distant at the same time, and Sam seems to view Jack as both on her side and against her. Each of their conversations veers between the awkward and the comfortable - there are flashes of the closeness and comfort that they have established with each other, but overall Sam seems uncertain, and Jack desperately uncomfortable.

More on each of the scenes individually:

-Note how Jack keeps looking sideways at Sam and away again in the first briefing room scene and again in the scene in Hammond's office with Simmons. He looks both guilty and apologetic, because he knows Sam's not going to react well to the decisions that have been and are being made, and tbh for Jack, possessor of a poker face extraordinaire, to give so much away in his facial expressions here shows just how concerned he is about Sam.

- The conversation after Hammond leaves the briefing room: Jack looks desperately uncomfortable here, really like he'd rather be almost anywhere else than having this conversation. I think here we have an example of Jack trying to avoid what he fears is liable to become a personal conversation, straying as it does onto the subject of Sam's emotional well-being and what Sam does outside the SGC. However even in the middle of this awkward, awkward exchange, we have a real flash of comfort - the 'as we met' is suddenly teasing, and Sam's answering snarky grin is right back in 'welcome to my life' territory. Perhaps it's no coincidence that this happens right after Sam drops her defensiveness and a moment of real insecurity comes through with the 'am I? When did you first notice?'. But it's only brief, and we're back to dismissive and get-me-out-of-here Jack. This is actually a scene that I've puzzled over a lot - first time I saw it it felt really out of character for Jack to be that dismissive of Sam, as he seems on the surface to be really quite aggressively not bothered, but I think that really it's classic Jack avoidance technique, and I think Sam does understand that, although it infuriates her.

- The scene at Sam's house when the Code 3 team are wiring it up is a complete contrast though, and Jack is far warmer here. I think Jack's comment that 'no-one's accusing you of acting improperly' is a very telling one. Admittedly Sam is going rather to extremes in trying to justify her actions to him, but I think it shows insight and understanding on Jack's part that he gets right to the bottom of what's bothering her - Sam needs to be 'good', do the right thing, and the idea that she might be criticised is something she hates. Jack's offer to hang out for a bit is really sweet and genuine, but I don't think he expects her to take him up on it necessarily - it's kind of like the fishing invitations and also I think the offer to let her talk to him about the doppelganger situation in Point of View. It's the offer that counts with these two, really; kind of a way to say 'I know we can't and you know we can't, but you know if ever you really did need me, I'm here'. They never do give in, but I think it's important for both of them that it's there, deep down, even if unacknowledged. However the unacknowledgement of it is what leads them to the emotional constipation that builds from now through to Threads of course

- This might not be a scene with Sam in it, but Jack's attitude in his conversation with Daniel about how Sam's doing is entirely consistent. He goes (like Sam does so often) for the factual, and Daniel has to rather pointedly steer him onto the topic of Sam's emotional well-being, and then the discomfort rears its head again. Jack really doesn't like the whole subject, and the whole situation, and isn't doing a very good job of hiding it.

- We then have another really awkward exchange back on base when Sam corners Jack and asks him about the bug she found left behind. Admittedly she has cornered him on the way to the loo, but again we have another conversation here that Jack clearly does not want to be having.

- There's lots interesting about the scene where Jack turns up at Sam's with pizza and a movie and Teal'c as a rather obvious chaperone. Firstly, the very fact of him being there, particlularly in light of what I said above about his offer to hang out a few scenes earlier, and the idea that it's the offer that's important, not the activity. Yet here he is, with Teal'c in tow to make it 'safe', not just offering but actually quite obviously being present and willing to spend a few hours with her socially, and for once not expecting her to turn him down. I think this is a mark of just how concerned he is about her, underneath. Despite the millions of team night fanfics, I don't think that SG1 really do spend a lot of time together outside of work. I don't think they never socialise - we see evidence to the contrary in Upgrades, Meridian and [i]Lost City[i] if nothing else - and I don't think it in anyway undermines how close they all are, I just think Sam's comment about not having a lot of time outside of work in Heroes is far more accurate. And, you know, Teal'c has managed to watch Star Wars 18 times but not once with Jack? Yeah, so not so much with the team movie nights then... Anyway, the second interesting thing about this scene is Jack's reaction when he realises Sam's not alone. He's airily look-how-unbothered-I-am, but I think he doth protest too much (look how he tries to peer round the door to get a look as she closes it). The 'good for you' comes across very genuine, but at the same time almost too enthusiastic, like he's trying to cover up the stab of hurt it must have caused - he loves her, and thought she loved him too, and yet here she is, dating. To be honest, I think this one exchange could be the root of the seeds of doubting the feelings they were so certain of in Divide & Conquer, and sets them right on the path that leads all the way to Grace (there it is again...) and Affinity. Jack thinks Sam's trying to move on, and Sam thinks Jack's not bothered if she does. And even though it is later revealed that it was Orlin etc, I think those seeds are there, and after all, Sam does nothing to disabuse Jack of the notion that she and Orlin were involved romantically.

- And finally, the scene back at the SGC in Hammond's office. Again Jack is looking uncomfortable, and we have the same sidelong guilty glances at Sam throughout. Sam too directs most of her questioning/objecting glances right back at Jack and not at Hammond - she counts on him as her ally, and for the first part of the scene Jack doesn't come through for her on that front - a continuing sign of his discomfort with the whole situation. However as soon as Simmons really kicks in with his accusations Jack swings into action defending her, and he supports her throughout the raid. He doesn't look that impressed to find she's gone through the mini stargate after Orlin though.

So, to sum up, the implications of all of this for Sam and Jack's relationship:

I think this episode is hugely significant for how their relationship comes across throughout S5. Orlin definitely causes a rift between them - he comes between them and causes them to doubt each other and suspect each other, and I think this does have repercussions that we see throughout the rest of the season. However this estrangement (for want of a better term) is only superficial - the concern for each other, and understanding of each other, and support of each other, particularly when threatened from outside, is all still clearly visible underneath, and comes back time and time again over the episodes to come (Fifth Man, Desperate Measures etc). Nothing has really changed in terms of their feelings, they're just not quite on the same wavelength for a while, and I think this is them both trying separately to compensate and adjust for having got too close in S4.

[Cagranosalis]

Firstly, wow Josi, that was worth the extra wait...

Great review. Really nicely done and I'm a bit at a loss of where to start in terms of picking through to discuss bits because I just agree pretty much, the whole way through. Just when I thought you'd missed something I saw, you go and say it. Damn you... but I am so glad I gave you this one to do since I'd have hashed it right up if I'd done it.


Anyway....

So Orlin goes all glowy and brainwashes conveys the strength of his feelings for her. Sam inexplicably doesn't kick him right out on his backside after this and lets him stay.

That always bothered me, especially as she'd previously been so quick to call in the squad to deal with the situation. Maybe it's because - in 42 minutes - it's hard to convey exactly how much of a hassle Sam had everyone thinking she was a bit ga ga there so, that could explain why she was more open to Glow!Sex with him.

However I really don't like Orlin in relation to Sam - like Narim and Martouf before him he pushes on Sam's emotions and tries to influence her feelings. Poor Sam, with all these alien guys trying to make her love them, is it any wonder she's rather useless in the romantic department? I'd go with the crush on my emotionally distant and unobtainable boss too, in her situation! Particularly when they all just die on her anyway

Only really quoting that because I love the way you put it.

But back to Orlin... I'm particularly uncomfortable with the way he tells her he tried to do the mind-sharing thing on her without her permission first time - isn't this essentially a form of violation? And then he lurks in her house and watches her? Creepsville, frankly.

Yes, and that is why I have such an issue with how easily she gives in to his request to go glowy like that. *shudder* Poor Sam; she does seem to have a thing about aliens using strange devices to help her "feel what they feel" on her. What you need young lady is a nice sensible not-at-all-slightly-lunatic-fringe police officer... uh, no, actually you don't but it'lll take you a while to suss that out for yourself.

I have to say though, the way that the lurking scenes are filmed is awesome in conveying a sense of threat and uncomfortableness, particularly that fantastic shot where Sam's brushing her teeth and you see her face magnified in the side mirror (*insert Martin Wood fangurl moment here*).

Oooh I missed that. And I only rewatched it again this evening. You mean I'm going to have to watch again? Oh the hardship!


I'm not going to quote and comment on all the lovely observations you make about Sam and Jack here, except to say you've picked out everything I see too. There's one additional point here; when Sam is trying to tell Jack, in a round about way, that Orlin is still around and he gives his "authorisation" for her to continue gathering data about him. Of course neither of them outright say Orlin is still there but I'm fairly certain Jack knows exactly what Sam is saying. And it's the fact he knew and gave his roundabout approval of her actions, that gives him the chance to actively defend her against Simmons later on.

Absolutely my favourite scene here is the one where Jack and Teal'c turn up with the pizza. I just love the play of emotions across both Jack and Sam's face here. Jack is surprised, a little disapointed and distinctly put out that she's got someone to have a life with right there. Sam's all smiles but very forced. Is this because she doesn't want them to come in, see Orlin and force her to either fess up or outright lie to her CO? Or is it because it's Jack, standing there offering to spend free time with her and she's bummed she can't do it even though she really wants to? And yes, Teal'c is a very obvious chaperone here; the scene would have been far more romantically significant had Jack turned up alone, and much less so if Daniel had been there too but as it is, just right to drive home the point that it's Jack who wants to be there supporting her. Jack would never have turned up alone though; at this point they both know that leisure time alone is just not going to happen.

Just to go off on a little tangent about that, my feeling about all those fishing invites (subsequent to the first which I think was a genuine invite). I think part the reason Jack asks knowing Sam will say no is because it's his way of saying "We're ok" and maintaining the self-pretense that their feelings are platonic.

Back to the subject of SG-1 spending downtime together; like Josiane, I get the impression that hanging about off duty isn't something they do much. At least not as just SG-1. I'd imagine there's general social events that take place - leaving dos, birthday and promotion celebratory drinks etc. but the hanging about watching a game or a DVD isn't something I see them doing much of and partly why the infrequent fishing invites and turning up on each other's doorsteps unannounced come as a surprise and have romantic significance.

I do think this is the start of Jack pulling back from, not just Sam but all of them, emotionally, and I think this itself causes problems with his relationships with others, most notably Daniel who seems to butt heads with Jack a lot more over this season, to the point where I think, at his "death" things are quite difficult. More of that at the relevant time though

[m_wendy_r]

Josi... fabulous review.

I... I agree with it all! And have nothing to add. I understood it quite well.