Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[JenniferJF]

More thoughts on DJ, having just rewatched it:

Mama always taught me, if you can't say something nice... So I'm trying to say this as nicely as possible

I'll just say, compared to most SG1, this episode always feels sort of... clunky... to me. This is especially true in the scenes with Jack/Jack talking to each other. (all the scenes with Jack/Jack) I find myself consistently wincing during them and it's almost a physical relief when the camera goes to one of the other characters. I don't know if it's the camera angles between the two or (I hate to say) RDA's acting against nothing (though I assume he does it all the time on the show), but I always *feel* like I'm seeing RDA alone speaking to a camera. There's no *connection* - for want of a better word - between him (either Jack or the robot) and the other characters in the scene. I like to think it's because normally RDAs non-verbal communication with the other actors is so strong that, when he's not really there filming it with them in real time, so much of that gets lost he doesn't even seem like Jack anymore. In fact, the only scene which bothers me in quite the same way as the scenes in this episode are the very first Daniel/Jack scene in The Shroud which also doesn't feel like MS and RDA were even in the same room when they shot it.

Other than that - and I'm not sure why this is, either, though maybe it's because I'm not emotionally vested in the robots and think it would be easier all around if they did just hurry up and die - I find this episode extremely difficult to get through (just ask my kids how many times I had to rewind because my mind wandered to other things while watching ). Like I said, have no idea why.

Though I am glad some of you said you loved this episode as it makes me feel better about expressing the fact I don't. Oddly enough.

EDIT: And rewatching did confirm my memory that I find Jack extremely subdued and far less *Jack* than he normally is. His jokes don't seem that funny, and his reactions to Sam seem flat, for want of a better word. It may be that's just carry-over from the other issues I mentioned above, though I find it to be true in the initial control room scenes when it's just RDA and so I suspect it's more than that, and so I do take it as indicative of the emotional processes he's going through to start to pull back from Sam.

[Zoser]

Sorry, I'm late with my two cents about Entity. I really thought I could leave it alone and not post about it. But...I'm afraid I can't.

I have to say that I totally disagree with UhSir, Evenstar and Petra on this one. I do believe that the entity chose Sam specifically because of her relationship with Jack and that yes, he does feel guilty about that, otherwise what happens in the end…and why Jack ultimately backs away from Sam following this episode makes no sense whatsoever.

There are many levels of story telling in an epsiode. There is the written story, which is expressed in the dialogue and the action. There is the visual story, which is told through various camera angles and blocking and even scene cuts. Then there is the thematic story, which is told to us through the various musical cues…happy music telling us when something is light and humorous, threatening music indicating danger ahead, and even various cues for various characters and…in the case of Sam and Jack…their relationship.

To understand an episode…to *really* understand the full story being told by the writers and the director…one must bring all these aspects to bear upon what we see and hear on the screen.

In Entity, this becomes even more important because the visuals and the music together are what tell the complete story of what’s *really* going on here.

There are three critical scenes…which have been touched on already. The first is when Jack confronts the entity and establishes what it is and why it’s taken over Sam. True, there is no specific statement that it went into Sam because of her relationship with Jack, but the implication, specifically from the music cue, is that this *is* the case. The moment the being says “For this reason this one was chosen” the S/J theme begins to play. That makes that moment specifically about *them*…that it was *their* relationship which precipitated this being’s decision to invade Sam…and that it was a deliberate and strategic choice on the being’s part. Otherwise, it makes no sense to play this particular cue at that point, because aside from Jack’s concern over Sam’s well-being—the same kind of concern he’d have if that were Daniel or Teal’c instead of Sam—there’s nothing else going on at that moment to suggest that this is about *them* and their feelings for each other. So the cue becomes pointless unless it’s meant to underscore that the entity *chose* Sam precisely because of her personal value to Jack. The music clarifies for us what the dialogue only intimates at. It is, in a way, a sort of translation.

The second scene is in the infirmary after Jack has shot Sam. Instead of having him sit at her bedside, close to her head, they blocked him to sit closer to her feet. He’s keeping vigil, but not too close. Why? Is it because he doesn’t like Sam? Is it because he gets a better view of her from far away? Is it because the sound of the ventilator annoys him? Of course not. So what could compell a man who has admitted, to her and to himself, that he loves this woman, to stay as far away from her deathbed as he does? Guilt. Because he hardly dares to think he should be there. And yet he can’t be anywhere else *but* there. He won’t leave her side, but he won’t allow himself the right to be *at* her side, close to her in these final hours, because he feels responsible for what has happened. For shooting her, yes…but also, because here we have the thematic tie again with the music…for the initial situation in the first place. Even if you don’t believe that the entity chose Sam because of what she meant, personally, to Jack, the fact that Jack *does* is what’s key here. And that guilt is not shown with words…it’s shown with the visual shot of Jack, sitting there, alone and oh so far from her and with the music cue that tells us, once again, that this moment is about *them* and their relationship.

The third scene is the final one…after Sam’s consciousness has been restored. What’s key in this scene is the exchange between Sam and Jack, because it’s right *there* where Jack takes his first step towards backing away. When Sam says “I was shouting for you to hear.” the camera angle shows that she’s speaking directly to Jack. She doesn’t look at Janet, who’s closer. She doesn’t look farther away, where Hammond and Teal’c and Daniel are standing. She’s looking right at Jack. But instead of responding in the same one-on-one way as Sam is talking to him, Jack replies “We heard.” which totally depersonalizes it. He takes a giant emotional step back at that moment, refusing to respond as Jack to Sam, and instead responding as the generic “we”. And then…as the camera pulls back for the final shot, we see the most painful thing of all…the gesture where Jack starts to reach out his hand to touch her and then aborts the movement and pulls it back, tapping her bed instead. And again, there, as in the other two scenes, the S/J theme plays, telling us that *this* is a personal moment…and the fact that Jack rejects the personal with his words, and stays his hand from the act of touching her…shows that he’s withdrawing from her right then and there.

It’s heart-breaking. Especially the way he pulls his hand back at the end. Because it’s so symbolic of what he’s forcing himself to do to her after this. To pull back. To step back. To put that forceshield that was between them in Upgrades back up firmly in place. And even though we’re not told this specifically in the story, that final shot…with Jack’s final gesture…and that music cue all combine to show the deeper meaning of that moment and the ramifications it has on them personally.

Which is what follows in S5-8. Because if you accept that this is the point where Jack withdrew from the relationship…or, more precisely tried to withdraw, because we see by Desperate Measures in S5 that he really hadn’t…then it’s far easier to understand how Sam ends up in S7 in the fragile emotional state she is in Grace, trying to sort out who she is and what she’s feeling when really, since Entity, nothing was ever the same between her and Jack again.

Okay. Had my say. Going back to lurkdom again.

I will quibble on only one point. Jack didn't hear her Daniel did, if it were left to Jack alone she might still be in the computer before he noticed it.

[Zoser]

Comtrya!
Not the best episode of the lot but I love the robots! Harlan was my avatar for years.
I would have rather they survive than O'Neill's clone - a 50 year old teenager kinda creeps me out.
And I also understand their need to carry on with their mission to defeat the Goa'uld. Who knows what a help they may have been since RoboCarter perfected her power pack and this episode. I had always hoped that Harlan took them back and patched them up. But dying for our SG-1 was a worthy way to go out.


And most poignant for me is that Jack witnesses Sam die again( well it's RoboCarter) and Sam is also affected by this. Sam has a better grasp of the robots as sentient beings. I think Jack is just reacting to Sam's distress at her doubles sacrifice.

Here I think Jack's get's a glimpse of his own mortality and perhaps his own eventual end - bleeding to death on a distant planet with no one to mourn.

[AstraPerAspera]

I will quibble on only one point. Jack didn't hear her Daniel did, if it were left to Jack alone she might still be in the computer before he noticed it.

Ahh. See. I never took it as literally as the computer message. I took it as Sam, trapped inside her own mind, trying to communicate that she was still there throughout the whole ordeal, not just at the end.

But...that's just me.

[josiane]

Ahh. See. I never took it as literally as the computer message. I took it as Sam, trapped inside her own mind, trying to communicate that she was still there throughout the whole ordeal, not just at the end.

But...that's just me.

Not just you Entity really is an example of what Peter DeLuise was talking about on the Beneath the Surface commentary, where the episode is not about the 'device', it's about the effect of that device on the characters. So it doesn't matter whether technically Daniel was the one who interpreted the computer message, the line about shouting for you to hear has a wider impact than that, emotionally.

[AstraPerAspera]

Not just you Entity really is an example of what Peter DeLuise was talking about on the Beneath the Surface commentary, where the episode is not about the 'device', it's about the effect of that device on the characters. So it doesn't matter whether technically Daniel was the one who interpreted the computer message, the line about shouting for you to hear has a wider impact than that, emotionally.

Well...you know who *wrote* Entity, right?

I really ought to listen to those commentaries more often....

[UhSir]

All the usual disclaimers apply to this post, which I would have posted this earlier but my internet has been going on and off, which is a good thing because it gave me a chance to consider whether or not to post this because I expect I'm going to upset a bunch of folks and that is not what I want to do. Why bother then because this is just my feeling about things. *heavy sigh* If it helps, I love reading everybody's posts in this thread because they stimulate my brain which makes me think about things I otherwise wouldn't and that makes me enjoy this show and the Sam/Jack relationship a whole lot more.

Re: Entity

I always take the multiple aspects of creating a show into account when I'm watching it. But no amount of music, cinematography, directing and acting is going to fix a poorly written story. It's very obvious to me that they tried. And tried really, REALLY (and at times too) hard.
Story is the most important part. Otherwise a show's meaning is left entirely up to interpretation (there will always be some degree) and we see, right here with just this episode, how many paths a show can take.

With or without the music I would be thinking, yep, Jack still cares for her more than he's supposed to. And in the final scene when he says "We heard" ... which actually is true because Daniel saw it and Hammond already knew by the time Jack called, so Jack was stating fact and if I really nitpick, he should have said "They" because Daniel struggled to get Jack to understand ... anyway where was I... and he reaches for her then stops himself, shows me that he's leaving it in the room like they agreed.

Soundtracks are meant to enhance the story, not dictate it. If the PTB are telling me that an episode is a key turning point for the ship simply because they hit us over the head with the shippy music hammer, well, that just offends me. Most of us did fine shipping merrily along during the first three seasons without any music telling us when and how.

[EvenstarSRV]

Sorry for the delay...silly midterms...

Perhaps.
If it weren't for the fact that she's jealous of Kerry, clearly more and more miserable as S8 progresses...
and if it weren't for the fact that Sam herself - in Grace - TELLS us she's unhappy, and why (no Jack).
*shrugs* I'm just sayin'

But, IMO, she was only rather miserable in relation to her personal life regarding Pete, questioning whether she really should marry him. She's seemed rather happy in most of the other stuff she did that season. And in Grace, Sam points out that she's very happy with her job and the things she's gotten to see, but Jacob points out that what currently also makes her happy, friendships with Cassie, Janet, the guys, and her relationships with her father and brother, etc, are no longer quite enough to make her as happy as she used to feel in her personal life.

EDIT: I should add that I do believe it's possible for a person to be 'happy' in one area of their life but, if they're not happy - or at least not working *towards* happiness - in other areas than they can't truly claim real 'happiness'. If Sam had this uber perfect romantic life but perceived herself to be a complete failure professionally, she would also not be happy. It's possible we're differing over definitions of happiness here...

I think that's basically it. For me, to apply a label of 'happy' or 'unhappy' to a person's entire life does not really fully take into account the nuances of their life, and 'real happiness' is different for every person. I think for the longest time Sam's idea of 'happiness' did not necessarily include an intimate relationship with someone, and later on her idea of that did, but who's to say which one is more 'real'?

Throughout the series, I believe that Sam was very happy with her work, science, and exploration with SG-1, happy with her friendships with her teammates, Janet, and Cassie (though this takes a bit of a hit with Daniel's death), finds happiness with her renewed relationships with her father and brother, and is happy with her hobbies like her bike. The only area in her life where Sam seems to be lacking is finding happiness in an intimate, romantic relationship with someone. For the first several years, this does not seem that important to Sam in balance with the other aspects of her life that were making her happy.

The loss of Daniel was a major blow to Sam, and that combined with Sam getting closer than usual to losing Jack and Teal'c as well after that (Abyss and Paradise Lost), and I think Sam starts to desire other kinds of happiness to offset the loss and almost losses of those friendships. That is where her desire to actively seek out an intimate relationship began, IMO, and it most likely started small and grew until things came to a head for her in the emotional events of Grace, after which she set out to find that relationship at almost the first opportunity she had, the set up date with Pete. And of course while she starts out happy in that relationship, doubts begin to creep in (not all in relation to her feelings for Jack, IMHO, Fifth as Pete anyone?), and she becomes less happy with that relationship as S8 progresses and ultimately ends it.

But the main point I was trying to make, is that while Sam at times became less happy in the state of her personal life in relation to intimacy and romance with someone, her unhappiness in that one area would not make her, as a whole person, unhappy. And I think that Sam, as the often hyper-analytical person she is, would reason that since one can never really achieve 100% of something (because of uncertainty and error propagation), as long as her mean happiness had a standard of deviation she was satisfied with, I think she'd consider herself on the whole a happy person.

Soundtracks are meant to enhance the story, not dictate it. If the PTB are telling me that an episode is a key turning point for the ship simply because they hit us over the head with the shippy music hammer, well, that just offends me. Most of us did fine shipping merrily along during the first three seasons without any music telling us when and how.

I'd just like to add here, I never thought until recently that that piano rift was meant to be a specific theme for S/J. I had always just thought of it as one of Stargate's musical cue for a sad/tragic scene.

[UhSir]

And I think that Sam, as the often hyper-analytical person she is, would reason that since one can never really achieve 100% of something (because of uncertainty and error propagation), as long as her mean happiness had a standard of deviation she was satisfied with, I think she'd consider herself on the whole a happy person.

This is fantastic!

[AstraPerAspera]

All the usual disclaimers apply to this post, which I would have posted this earlier but my internet has been going on and off, which is a good thing because it gave me a chance to consider whether or not to post this because I expect I'm going to upset a bunch of folks and that is not what I want to do. Why bother then because this is just my feeling about things. *heavy sigh* If it helps, I love reading everybody's posts in this thread because they stimulate my brain which makes me think about things I otherwise wouldn't and that makes me enjoy this show and the Sam/Jack relationship a whole lot more.

Re: Entity

I always take the multiple aspects of creating a show into account when I'm watching it. But no amount of music, cinematography, directing and acting is going to fix a poorly written story. It's very obvious to me that they tried. And tried really, REALLY (and at times too) hard.
Story is the most important part. Otherwise a show's meaning is left entirely up to interpretation (there will always be some degree) and we see, right here with just this episode, how many paths a show can take.

With or without the music I would be thinking, yep, Jack still cares for her more than he's supposed to. And in the final scene when he says "We heard" ... which actually is true because Daniel saw it and Hammond already knew by the time Jack called, so Jack was stating fact and if I really nitpick, he should have said "They" because Daniel struggled to get Jack to understand ... anyway where was I... and he reaches for her then stops himself, shows me that he's leaving it in the room like they agreed.

Soundtracks are meant to enhance the story, not dictate it. If the PTB are telling me that an episode is a key turning point for the ship simply because they hit us over the head with the shippy music hammer, well, that just offends me. Most of us did fine shipping merrily along during the first three seasons without any music telling us when and how.

Oh I hope nothing I said would ever discourage you from posting. After all, it is the interchange of ideas that opens us up to new perspective and challenges us to break out of our existing paradigms. Otherwise we do little more than sit and contemplate our own navels.

As far as the integration of the music and the visual/directing aspects of the show, I guess I feel that they go hand in hand with the written story and that they each do their part in conveying different aspects, both obvious and subtle. I was once privileged to attend a concert of our local symphony that was conducted by John Williams. As part of the program he showed a sequence from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade...without the score. And even though there was a lot of running and action and surprising moments, it was, ultimately, just rather "meh". He then re-ran the same scene whilst conducting the symphony in the accompanying score. What a change. Suddenly what we were watching meant so much more...and interspersed in the score were familiar themes including, at the end, the triumphant Indiana Jones March, as young Indy picks up the whip for the first time and ultimately makes his escape. The importance of that moment...when he first comes in possession of that trademark whip...meant nothing when we saw it without music...but when it was underscored by the recognizable theme...suddenly we knew: Indiana Jones was born. The music was the key.

So while I don't expect the score in SG1 to carry the story, I do see it as adding dimension to it. But then, I'm a bit of a music junkie, so perhaps I'm more attuned to it than an average viewer.

And yes, to answer Evenstar's question, it *is* a specific theme reserved just for Sam and Jack moments. Its first heard in Point of View as AU Sam is mourning her Jack. Somewhere I have a list of every time its played, including Moebius, during the ATL kiss...and, just a phrase of it--in a minor key--in Continuum at the moment when Jack dies. There is a piano riff that introduces it sometimes...and that riff is often used in other scenes not even including Sam or Jack (I think I heard it on SGA once...)...but the S/J theme is specifically and exclusively theirs.

Back to Entity for a moment...I think this is the episode where many of us are going to have to part company, so to speak, because we have dramatically different interpretations of why the next four seasons play out the way they do. But that's okay. That's why Baskin-Robbins makes 31 flavors. Or at least they used to. Haven't seen one in years, now that I think about it.... My point is...I just can't make any sense out of what comes after this, without viewing *this* episode in the context I've described. If others can, then you're seeing something I'm not.

Oh...one more thing...as for plot holes...yes. There are a few. But I'd argue no more than in many other episodes. And remember...we're talking about a tv show where the underlying premise is that a bunch of people dial up a wormhole like it was a telephone and go off to fight bad guys with snakes in their heads who talk real funny and have glowy eyes.... I'd say there's a certain amount of leeway necessary from the get-go in the whole thing. So bouncing consciousnesses around through computer systems is really not much of an imaginary leap. As for the other flaws...I'm willing to live with them because I find the episode so absolutely critical to the whole ship saga. But for those who do not, it's quite understandable why its shortcomings should stand out.

[Tachyon]

Double Jeopardy... oy. This is the one I usually skip. But I gotta check the mentioned S/J moment out.

[mara-anni]

Actually, we're not that far off. I'm not saying Jack would *actually* want to leave the SGC - I said a part of him would. Just because some things about that life call to him doesn't mean he'd really be willing to give up the life he does have for it. He did really and truly mourn in 100 Days, after all. I just meant that he does find it attractive and it wouldn't be the worst thing on earth for him to give it up.

Because, at the end of the day, I think what we see after Threads shows that, while at the end of season 8 the fight against the Goa'ul was over, Jack still kept working and stayed with the program. He didn't even retire so he could move to Nevada - he took a job in D.C. So I agree that Jack loves his job and would chose it over the simple life. I just think he can see the attraction of the other lifestyle, too. In fact, I might go so far as to say (and I think he's not just joking when he indicates this in The Fifth Man) that part of why Jack loves his job is because he is, effectively, fighting for home and hearth... for Minnesota, if you will. But he's not by nature one of the sheep who pleasantly live there, but one of the dogs who keep out the wolves.

That's exactly right. To say that Jack doesn't find his job important, fulfilling and yes, enjoyable, is to not understand him at all. He and Sam are indeed kindred souls in this aspect, as well. For further evidence of this, I would point to BtS, where - though they have no memory, the fundamentals of who they are, are intact - and both of them find a great deal of worth in the work they do, which is not much different from the work Sam and Jack do. Sam and Jack save the world from threats from space, they protect their planet and their people. Thera and Jonah save their people from the ice.
Thera: we're helping our people survive an iceage!
Jonah: Yeah, what could be more important than that?!
The importance of their work - along with a whole lot of other factors - is one of the things that keeps them from getting together all the way back in S1. Because, love each other as they might, neither would have been able to leave the SGC and the field (look how Jack misses the field in S8) and been happy. Neither are built to be able to sit back and let someone else take care of things.

Of course, ironically, neither of them can be happy just doing their jobs without each other either.

[Zoser]

That's exactly right. To say that Jack doesn't find his job important, fulfilling and yes, enjoyable, is to not understand him at all. He and Sam are indeed kindred souls in this aspect, as well. For further evidence of this, I would point to BtS, where - though they have no memory, the fundamentals of who they are, are intact - and both of them find a great deal of worth in the work they do, which is not much different from the work Sam and Jack do. Sam and Jack save the world from threats from space, they protect their planet and their people. Thera and Jonah save their people from the ice.
Thera: we're helping our people survive an iceage!
Jonah: Yeah, what could be more important than that?!
The importance of their work - along with a whole lot of other factors - is one of the things that keeps them from getting together all the way back in S1. Because, love each other as they might, neither would have been able to leave the SGC and the field (look how Jack misses the field in S8) and been happy. Neither are built to be able to sit back and let someone else take care of things.

Of course, ironically, neither of them can be happy just doing their jobs without each other either.

Yes that's right. Jack defines himself in Brief Candle:
O'NEILL: I know, Kynthia. But in my heart...I'm a military man, a warrior. That's my life. To which my ex-wife will attest.

[Petra]

UhSir, please don't even consider not posting here. It's a discussion thread after all, and the more different opinions, the better. Heck, I've been disagreeing with vast majority here for quite a while now but I have no intention of leaving. *brightly ignores all groans of disappointment*

Double Jeopardy

I love this ep. It's one of my favourites in season 4. I find Harlan hilarious, the idea to revisit robot!SG-1 is great and 2 Jacks are even more hilarious than Harlan. Seriously, it's one of the very few episodes that make me laugh out loud. I also have to disagree with Jennifer here, because IMO RDA mops the floor with his performance. He's at his comedic best here.
What else? I love that Teal'c finally gets his revenge and all the Teal'c/Sam friendship moments make me all warm inside and make my inner team!fan do a happy dance.
And yum, 2 Jacks...did I mention there are 2 Jacks?
So..yep, great ep.

Having said that, the interaction between Sam and Jack at the beginning is...off to me. Her "I admit he was annoying but he wasn't a serious threat" is said with some irritation and without his rank. There's an edge as though she's irritated by his behaviour not amused. And again when the two Jacks go at it, I hear more irritation than amusement in her tone when she has to get them refocused (I won't say she isn't amused at all but I think under the amusement is annoyance again not indulgence). She does back him up about not taking the mission to rescue the robots but I think that's more because they've always really agreed about robots being robots whereas Daniel has always held the view the robots are a lifeform.

Erm..right, I guess that's my clue to disagree. I don't see any annoyance on Sam's part at the SGC. In fact I love their interaction, all the looks they share..Sure, Jack's a bit exasperated and Sam's a bit annoyed at his exasperation when she accepts Harlan's offer to see his power source right at this moment, but that's fairly normal reaction from our favourite couple, so I wouldn't read too much into it. As for Sam's breaking up the fight between our Jack and robot!Jack, I admit she sounds slightly annoyed, but I attribute it to the fact that it really isn't a good time for them to bicker.

All in all, I agree with Cags, that it's business as normal and their relationship isn't significantly changed. Yet. I'll have more to say about it when we get to Exodus/Enemies and I'll be able to tie what happens to Teal'c into S/J ship.

What I do find interesting is Jack's interaction with his robot duplicate. He is very hostile and I love the line "Oh is this the first time you've lied to yourself? I told you what you wanted to hear" because it is quite revealing about Jack's inner dialogue that he must have with himself sometimes.

Yep, the insight into Jack's character that we get here is one of the reasons I enjoy DJ so much. His psyche must be pretty messed up after everything he's been through.

[UhSir]

Favorite Quote
"For our father." (())
I still got teary and I've seen this episode several times. Damn good acting!

Episode in general

I love Harlan. Annoying as he is, I just love him. At the end of the episode my thoughts were about poor lonely Harlan.

Robot Jack bugged me at first and I wanted to blame it on an attempt to show he was different from Real Jack but I gave up that idea and settled on figuring that Robot Jack is showing frustration. He's stuck most of the time on the planet. He has to endure the "torture" of Harlan. And now here's Real Jack in his face. I don't like the way the Jacks are behaving but I understand.

Shippy Stuff

The looks between them after Sam says the serious threat thing.
The looks between them again when they're sitting next to each other in briefing. I can't remember what Sam had said.
Both times are good ol' Sam and Jack lurve!