Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[JenniferJF]

As Rachel said above
"By, S7 I think Sam was content but not happy. She had a job she loved but she was beginning to recognise that she had no life outside of the programme"
I think this was the point of the bet in the beginning of The Light. Daniel and Jack realized that way before she did.

I agree completely, and that was pretty much my original point. Because while I don't think Sam realized it yet, I do think she was still not truly happy even back then. And like you said, Daniel and Jack realized it before she did which was the point of the bet.

[Petra]

As Rachel said above
"By, S7 I think Sam was content but not happy. She had a job she loved but she was beginning to recognise that she had no life outside of the programme"
I think this was the point of the bet in the beginning of The Light. Daniel and Jack realized that way before she did.

Of, come on, they didn't exactly set an example themselves, did they? IMO none of the members of SG-1 had any personal life up to season 7-8, with the exception of Teal'c. T had his family and his cause and he was the only one spending his time off *off* the base. He was the only one in position to lecture Sam about having a life without being a hypocrite, and he never did.

We have no idea what Daniel did in his spare time, but he was always either on base or on some dig with another SG team whenever Jack teased Sam about getting a life. In fact, given that in The Light Jack's talking about Sam's downtime and they are all on the same team, that would imply that the guys have downtime too. And where is Daniel? Off-world studying history. The only other times we see him taking time off is to go to his proffesor's funeral, taking Vala on a date/not date and going to some library to study.

And Jack himself..well, he went fishing whenever SG-1 was on stand down, which happened every few *months* (Small Victories - The Curse). Otherwise? He watched tv, went to hockey games, played chess with Cassie and poker with his civilian pals. That's it. He was as much a workaholic as Sam and Daniel - in fact in The Other Side he says that he came into work 2 hours earlier - is this how the guy who has life behaves?

In comparison Sam with her bike, playing chess with Cassie, spending time with her and Janet and once in a while visiting her brother didn't really look that bad. She *did* have a life outside of the SGC - or at least she had it as much as Jack and Daniel had it. She didn't have romance in her life - but then, the guys didn't as well.

I think all this teasing about Sam getting a life was just this - friendly teasing, because Jack realised they were all in the same position. He wasn't much better himself. Daniel was probably even worse. They all knew that and they kind of made fun of it - hence the bet. At least that's how I see it.

[hedwig]

An additional point in this discussion is that Jack and Daniel are hardly ones to be pointing out anything about Sam's life - or lack thereof - since neither one of them "had a life" either. Neither of them had much of a life outside the SGC. Daniel certainly didn't; at least not from anything we were shown. And all Jack really had was running away to his cabin as often as he could (in my mind he was escaping all his responsibilities and his work at the SGC - not to say there's anything wrong with that). He played cards with a friend or two on some Fridays, and drank a lot of beer. But basically, he didn't have a life either. And just because each of them had been married (obviously not to each other) and (in Jack's case) been a father, didn't make them that much more experienced at having a life than Sam was at that point. In my opinion, both of them were using their jobs as an excuse to not go out and find themselves some other kind of fulfilling anything to fill any other voids in their lives. So in my mind they really had no business discussing whether Sam "had a life" when they couldn't even get one of their own. Which in my mind makes them every bit as much "unhappy" with their lives as they thought Sam may have been with aspects of hers. All IMHO, of course.

It's just that we got "Grace" to show us how unhappy Sam supposedly was. But nothing specific like that for Jack, Daniel or Teal'c, even though it certainly could have been assumed from watching them all over the years of the show that none of them were particularly happy.

EDIT: Hmmmm ... perhaps I should have read Petra's post (above) before posting this, since we said pretty much the same thing. She just said it better than I did.

[Zoser]

Of, come on, they didn't exactly set an example themselves, did they? IMO none of the members of SG-1 had any personal life up to season 7-8, with the exception of Teal'c. T had his family and his cause and he was the only one spending his time off *off* the base. He was the only one in position to lecture Sam about having a life without being a hypocrite, and he never did.

We have no idea what Daniel did in his spare time, but he was always either on base or on some dig with another SG team whenever Jack teased Sam about getting a life. In fact, given that in The Light Jack's talking about Sam's downtime and they are all on the same team, that would imply that the guys have downtime too. And where is Daniel? Off-world studying history. The only other times we see him taking time off is to go to his proffesor's funeral, taking Vala on a date/not date and going to some library to study.

And Jack himself..well, he went fishing whenever SG-1 was on stand down, which happened every few *months* (Small Victories - The Curse). Otherwise? He watched tv, went to hockey games, played chess with Cassie and poker with his civilian pals. That's it. He was as much a workaholic as Sam and Daniel - in fact in The Other Side he says that he came into work 2 hours earlier - is this how the guy who has life behaves?

In comparison Sam with her bike, playing chess with Cassie, spending time with her and Janet and once in a while visiting her brother didn't really look that bad. She *did* have a life outside of the SGC - or at least she had it as much as Jack and Daniel had one. She didn't have a romance in her life - but then, they guys didn't as well.

I think all this teasing about Sam getting a life was just this - friendly teasing, because Jack realised they were all in the same position. He wasn't much better himself. Daniel was probably even worse. They all knew that and they kind of made fun of it - hence the bet. At least that's how I see it.

I agree - I think they saw the same thing in themselves - pots and kettles

[Rachel500]

I personally think there is a difference between whether someone's life is in balance (work vs personal life) and whether someone is happy.

Sometimes the scales won't be even (most of the time they aren't), and sometimes that matters and sometimes it doesn't.

For me, Sam's life was weighted towards work in the early years - she didn't feel the lack of a romantic relationship and was happy.

It was only when she began to feel that there was an imbalance - that she wanted something more beyond work - that she became unhappy.

I would agree that Jack's life is for the most part as equally out of balance as Sam's. And actually, I think Jack isn't happy with that for the most part for the majority of time until after Threads when he gets what he wants in his personal life (ie the woman he loves). To be honest, I think personality wise/character wise, Jack needed a family/significant other to make him happy more than Sam ever did. *runs away after dropping that bombshell*

[JenniferJF]

I would agree that Jack's life is for the most part as equally out of balance as Sam's. And actually, I think Jack isn't happy with that for the most part for the majority of time until after Threads when he gets what he wants in his personal life (ie the woman he loves). To be honest, I think personality wise/character wise, Jack needed a family/significant other to make him happy more than Sam ever did. *runs away after dropping that bombshell*

Good point, and i agree, especially with this last bit. I think, having 'been there done that', Jack is in a position to understand what he's not got and to miss it and wish for it more than Sam is. In fact, we just watched 100 Days here and I was discussing elsewhere that that episode really highlights - IMHO of course - the seductive power the simple life of home and family has over Jack. I really believe part of him would be glad to be able to leave the SGC and all the responsibilities of it all, but he doesn't not because he is having so much fun at work but because...well... it's a responsibility and his job and he's just not going to. Not that he doesn't enjoy what he's doing most of the time, just that he wouldn't totally hate giving it up, either. And I'd agree that, at least initially, you're correct, Jack wants it more than Sam. But I do think by S7-ish Sam finally admits she wants and needs *more* at least, in her personal life, than she has.

[Petra]

I would agree that Jack's life is for the most part as equally out of balance as Sam's. And actually, I think Jack isn't happy with that for the most part for the majority of time until after Threads when he gets what he wants in his personal life (ie the woman he loves). To be honest, I think personality wise/character wise, Jack needed a family/significant other to make him happy more than Sam ever did. *runs away after dropping that bombshell*

Now, this is something I can agree with. I also believe that Jack is a much more "family man" than Sam, although I'm not sold on the argument that it's because he knows what he's missing and Sam doesn't. I dunno, it just seems to be a part of who he is, sorta like he likes peace and quiet on his downtime while Sam needs more adrenaline.

Having said that, I'm going to disagree with Jennifer's post above, sorta. I do think that Jack needs some peace in his life and is a big fan of having a family, but I disagree with the notion that given choice he'd choose retirement. I know it's unpopular (but heck, most of my shippy and not-so-shippy opinions aren't very popular) but I think Jack loves his job almost as much as Sam loves hers. It's another thing they have in common. They are both career military, they love their job, are proud of their achievements and neither would give it up easily. *runs while other shippers take away her shipper badge*

[JenniferJF]

I know it's unpopular (but heck, most of my shippy and not-so-shippy opinions aren't very popular) but I think Jack loves his job almost as much as Sam loves hers. It's another thing they have in common. They are both career military, they love their job, are proud of their achievements and neither would give it up easily. *runs while other shippers take away her shipper badge*

Actually, we're not that far off. I'm not saying Jack would *actually* want to leave the SGC - I said a part of him would. Just because some things about that life call to him doesn't mean he'd really be willing to give up the life he does have for it. He did really and truly mourn in 100 Days, after all. I just meant that he does find it attractive and it wouldn't be the worst thing on earth for him to give it up.

Because, at the end of the day, I think what we see after Threads shows that, while at the end of season 8 the fight against the Goa'ul was over, Jack still kept working and stayed with the program. He didn't even retire so he could move to Nevada - he took a job in D.C. So I agree that Jack loves his job and would chose it over the simple life. I just think he can see the attraction of the other lifestyle, too. In fact, I might go so far as to say (and I think he's not just joking when he indicates this in The Fifth Man) that part of why Jack loves his job is because he is, effectively, fighting for home and hearth... for Minnesota, if you will. But he's not by nature one of the sheep who pleasantly live there, but one of the dogs who keep out the wolves.

[hedwig]

Now, this is something I can agree with. I also believe that Jack is a much more "family man" than Sam, although I'm not sold on the argument that it's because he knows what he's missing and Sam doesn't. I dunno, it just seems to be a part of who he is, sorta like he likes peace and quiet on his downtime while Sam needs more adrenaline.

Having said that, I'm going to disagree with Jennifer's post above, sorta. I do think that Jack needs some peace in his life and is a big fan of having a family, but I disagree with the notion that given choice he'd choose retirement. I know it's unpopular (but heck, most of my shippy and not-so-shippy opinions aren't very popular) but I think Jack loves his job almost as much as Sam loves hers. It's another thing they have in common. They are both career military, they love their job, are proud of their achievements and neither would give it up easily. *runs while other shippers take away her shipper badge*

(*runs through thread and snatches shipper badge to give back to Petra .... *)

[Cagranosalis]

Fab Entity discussions everyone! I have loved reading all the differeing interpretaions. and a few of you I owe greens to because, sadly, i need to spread the love first.


I have to admit my own views are similar to:

I interpret the Entity's statement "Because this one is important" a little differently - I don't see it as the Entity meaning to Jack specifically but instead because Sam is important to Earth - her knowledge, her experience with the Stargate - make her incredibly valuable. No doubt, if you were a reasonable being, if you can inhabit someone's head you want to pick the one person they might be willing to negotiate for - maybe the Entity could access her memories etc and therefore her knowledge might be worth trading for.

...because I don't think the entity could possibly have gathered enough evidence of a personal reason for Sam to be important to Jack specifically.

However, regardless of what was meant, she is important to him in that way what the entity meant or not is largely irrelevant. To Jack, there and then, in that situation, this is what was important, and this story really isn't about the science; it's about the relationships of those in that situation.

I also don't think Jack saw himself as responsible for Sam being taken over - I think he blames himself for killing her (despite it being the right choice). What I get from his hesitation is that this the second time in his life someone he loves is going to die by his own "gun" - proof to me that he still has a lot of issues over Charlie's death and that he is way too in love with Sam to stay on SG-1. That it affects Jack that deeply speaks to how Sam has gotten under his skin.

This I too agree with. I don't think he blames himself at all. I think he did what he had to do and he would have done it again if the situation called for it. And I think that, in itself is the telling point; not that Jack loves her - that is clear - but that he could and would sacrifice her if he had to. And this, to me, is the only reason why Hammond (who, even if he doens't realise they love each other, must relaise that Jack is much closer to her than a CO ought to be) allows them to continue on the same team. Because, really, he shouldn't.

On the whole, I could say I dislike Entity as an episode if I base my views on the fact the science is laughably bad and it has plot holes you could drive a fleet of Goa'uld motherships through. But, as I said above, it isn't about that; it's about the humans in that situation, their relationships with each other and they implications of that... and oh my! Absolutely wonderful acting by all involved, especially RDA and AT who rock my world in this episode. Jack's pure desolation at her bedside is just hauntingly angsty.

And that's about all I have to add.

[Cagranosalis]

Banner by JasminaGo

Synopsis
SG1 arrive on Juna and are quickly captured. They seem bemused when the lead warrior, Darian, identifies them correctly as SG1. They are informed that Cronus will be pleased at their capture but suddenly, Darian realises that Jack is no longer present. The overseer instructs Darian to find Jack and he returns home to his wife to find Jack already there. Darian is confused but fearing for the safety of his wife, he tells Jack that SG1 was there before. They convinced the people of Juna to rebel against the Jaffa of Heru'ur; they were successful and buried their Stargate but Cronus arrived in a ship and punished them. Darian says he will not be fooled again. Jack leaves him. The next day, Jack disguised as a Juna warrior, sneaks into the pyramid and watches as the rest of SG1 is brought before Cronus. He orders Darian to kill Daniel. The shot impacts decapitates Daniel revealing him to be a robot. Darian and Cronus are equally disturbed.
Back on Earth, Harlan contacts the SGC and is granted passage. He arrives and asks for the help of SG1 to help their robot duplicates. He tells Hammond and a bemused Sam, Jack and Teal'c (Daniel being away on a mission) that their duplicates go on missions – Robot Sam having developed a portable power pack – and they are late returning from their last one. Hammond is reluctant to authorise a mission and both Jack and Sam agree that going on one isn't necessary. Harlan requests that they dial the planet the duplicates went to so he can help. Sam recognises the address and when they dial and send a MALP through, Robot Jack talks to them along with Darian, who has realised Cronus is not a God given his surprise at Robot Daniel.
SG1 head to the planet and meet with Robot Jack and Darian. Robot Jack and Jack are very hostile to each other but a plan is formed to take the mothership in orbit. Robot Jack requests the help of his team-mates through an internal radio in his head. Robot Sam and Robot Teal'c are both being held by Cronus and being interrogated for information. The plan works; Teal'c suffers injury when Cronus tries to kill him before his robot counterpart kills Cronus and all the robots are fatally injured. As Robot Jack dies, Jack accepts that perhaps they weren't as different as he had insisted.

Synopsis taken from Rachel500’s Aftershocks tag.



Favourite Scene

When Jack first meets robot Jack. It’s just so funny and so snarky.



Favourite Line

Sam: “Sirs, as much as I’d love to see how this will play out...”



Review

This is one of my favourite episodes, not least because Jack is just at his snarky and flippant best throughout. I just love all the little quirks he plays as robot Jack.
I love the way Jack and robot Jack bat off each other; it’s a real hate hate relationship which is quite telling because, basically we have Jack here not liking himself much; a fascinating insight into what he might actually think of himself maybe?
All round we get the conclusion to the whole deal with the robots from way back in season 1 and they even get some pretty cool deaths – all of them. That’s the second time this season TPTB kills of not-quite-our-SG1. I think it was necessary that they killed them off because, once you open the whole idea that there’s another SG1 out there, you have that constantly hanging around. The only way to resolve it is to end that storyline, which I think they did beautifully here. What’s more, this also ties up one of Teal’c’s “Jaffa Revenge” stories (another of which is done the very next episode) and our guys pick up a mothership to boot – which ends up being a key component of the next two episodes – so we have some lovely continuity too.
I like the way we know from the start that robot SG1 isn’t really the real thing because there’s these signs – Daniel and Sam’s hair, Daniel’s glasses among other things. It’s fairly obvious so they don’t string it out for too long – just long enough to build suspense and lay out the plot.
I also like the fact that we get to see that, sometimes, the SGC make matters worse, and that they have a moral responsibility to put things right when that happens. This is also a recurring theme because we saw the same sense of responsibility in several different situations both before and after this.
The only thing I really dislike is about this episode is Harlan’s character because he is more caricature than character and that does annoy somewhat but, luckily, he’s in and out and it’s on with the action.


Implications For Sam and Jack

Well they seem to be business as normal after the angst fest that was Entity. There’s a lovely cute scene near the start when Harlan contacts the SGC and Sam says he’s not a threat while Jack’s trying to convince Hammond not to let him come through. They share a great look here that will make you smile. There’s no real sign that Jack is keeping his distance and, actually, he doesn’t do so at all here and for quite a few episodes after, which makes me think that, either he hasn’t quite absorbed the implications of what happened in Entity yet, or that there’s some other significant event that hasn’t occurred (to him) that really made him pull back.
In any case, nothing significant happens here to affect their relaationship either way.

[yessika]

Lovely review Cags!!

I absolutely love this episode not only because there are two O'Neills but also because I think Harlan is hilarious
*goes back to reading the lovely Entity/Grace/Threads conversation while she waits for substantial posts*

[Rachel500]

Double Jeopardy

Generally...

I'm just 'meh' about this episode. I think it was good to revisit with the robot duplicates (and how very them that they hadn't conformed to life helping out in the plant but had found a way to leave the planet and continue their work) but overall, I just don't find the story itself all that interesting. Yes, the robots get a heroic death which ties up their storyline; yes, SG1 pick up a shiny new mothership they'll need for the next episode and yes, Teal'c gets his revenge on Cronus but...'meh'.

Sam and Jack

I think its telling that Michael Shanks had a hand in the writing and direction. He was reportedly not keen on the Sam/Jack arc and I think that shows in that most of the interaction in DJ is professional, and there's not even a hint of something happening between the robot duplicates.

Having said that, the interaction between Sam and Jack at the beginning is...off to me. Her "I admit he was annoying but he wasn't a serious threat" is said with some irritation and without his rank. There's an edge as though she's irritated by his behaviour not amused. And again when the two Jacks go at it, I hear more irritation than amusement in her tone when she has to get them refocused (I won't say she isn't amused at all but I think under the amusement is annoyance again not indulgence). She does back him up about not taking the mission to rescue the robots but I think that's more because they've always really agreed about robots being robots whereas Daniel has always held the view the robots are a lifeform.

So...I guess I ask myself what makes Sam snippy with Jack (because that's my interpretation) rather than amused/indulgent as she usually is about his behaviour and I tend to think that's because after Entity something around their personal relationship has shifted. We haven't seen exactly what but whatever it is apart from Sam being a little snippy, they're both being professional and trying not to allow whatever it is to affect the job. Just my view and I know some others will not share it given the posts on Entity.

What I do find interesting is Jack's interaction with his robot duplicate. He is very hostile and I love the line "Oh is this the first time you've lied to yourself? I told you what you wanted to hear" because it is quite revealing about Jack's inner dialogue that he must have with himself sometimes.

[JenniferJF]

Double Jeopardy

Generally...

I'm just 'meh' about this episode. I think it was good to revisit with the robot duplicates (and how very them that they hadn't conformed to life helping out in the plant but had found a way to leave the planet and continue their work) but overall, I just don't find the story itself all that interesting. Yes, the robots get a heroic death which ties up their storyline; yes, SG1 pick up a shiny new mothership they'll need for the next episode and yes, Teal'c gets his revenge on Cronus but...'meh'.

<clip>

So...I guess I ask myself what makes Sam snippy with Jack (because that's my interpretation) rather than amused/indulgent as she usually is about his behaviour and I tend to think that's because after Entity something around their personal relationship has shifted. We haven't seen exactly what but whatever it is apart from Sam being a little snippy, they're both being professional and trying not to allow whatever it is to affect the job. Just my view and I know some others will not share it given the posts on Entity.

Pretty much my thoughts too. I find the shift in the attitudes between Sam and Jack here, especially compared to the beginning of Entity when I think Jack's (overly) concern for Sam and her (overly) attention to him (as when *he's* the one who steps forward and insists she go to the infirmary and she listens to *him* immediately when she didn't to anyone else's concern) and their general 'flirtiness' is significantly cooled off her. And I find it rather dramatic after Entity and the eps before. So...yeah... I do think this supports the idea that things changed after Entity.

Also, like you said, the rest of the episode is meh, though I do actually quite like the Teal'c bits here, as here they set up more of the 'Jaffa revenge' thing which becomes crucial at the beginning of next season which strengthens that storyline as it makes it gives it more to tie into.

[AstraPerAspera]

Sorry, I'm late with my two cents about Entity. I really thought I could leave it alone and not post about it. But...I'm afraid I can't.

I have to say that I totally disagree with UhSir, Evenstar and Petra on this one. I do believe that the entity chose Sam specifically because of her relationship with Jack and that yes, he does feel guilty about that, otherwise what happens in the end…and why Jack ultimately backs away from Sam following this episode makes no sense whatsoever.

There are many levels of story telling in an epsiode. There is the written story, which is expressed in the dialogue and the action. There is the visual story, which is told through various camera angles and blocking and even scene cuts. Then there is the thematic story, which is told to us through the various musical cues…happy music telling us when something is light and humorous, threatening music indicating danger ahead, and even various cues for various characters and…in the case of Sam and Jack…their relationship.

To understand an episode…to *really* understand the full story being told by the writers and the director…one must bring all these aspects to bear upon what we see and hear on the screen.

In Entity, this becomes even more important because the visuals and the music together are what tell the complete story of what’s *really* going on here.

There are three critical scenes…which have been touched on already. The first is when Jack confronts the entity and establishes what it is and why it’s taken over Sam. True, there is no specific statement that it went into Sam because of her relationship with Jack, but the implication, specifically from the music cue, is that this *is* the case. The moment the being says “For this reason this one was chosen” the S/J theme begins to play. That makes that moment specifically about *them*…that it was *their* relationship which precipitated this being’s decision to invade Sam…and that it was a deliberate and strategic choice on the being’s part. Otherwise, it makes no sense to play this particular cue at that point, because aside from Jack’s concern over Sam’s well-being—the same kind of concern he’d have if that were Daniel or Teal’c instead of Sam—there’s nothing else going on at that moment to suggest that this is about *them* and their feelings for each other. So the cue becomes pointless unless it’s meant to underscore that the entity *chose* Sam precisely because of her personal value to Jack. The music clarifies for us what the dialogue only intimates at. It is, in a way, a sort of translation.

The second scene is in the infirmary after Jack has shot Sam. Instead of having him sit at her bedside, close to her head, they blocked him to sit closer to her feet. He’s keeping vigil, but not too close. Why? Is it because he doesn’t like Sam? Is it because he gets a better view of her from far away? Is it because the sound of the ventilator annoys him? Of course not. So what could compell a man who has admitted, to her and to himself, that he loves this woman, to stay as far away from her deathbed as he does? Guilt. Because he hardly dares to think he should be there. And yet he can’t be anywhere else *but* there. He won’t leave her side, but he won’t allow himself the right to be *at* her side, close to her in these final hours, because he feels responsible for what has happened. For shooting her, yes…but also, because here we have the thematic tie again with the music…for the initial situation in the first place. Even if you don’t believe that the entity chose Sam because of what she meant, personally, to Jack, the fact that Jack *does* is what’s key here. And that guilt is not shown with words…it’s shown with the visual shot of Jack, sitting there, alone and oh so far from her and with the music cue that tells us, once again, that this moment is about *them* and their relationship.

The third scene is the final one…after Sam’s consciousness has been restored. What’s key in this scene is the exchange between Sam and Jack, because it’s right *there* where Jack takes his first step towards backing away. When Sam says “I was shouting for you to hear.” the camera angle shows that she’s speaking directly to Jack. She doesn’t look at Janet, who’s closer. She doesn’t look farther away, where Hammond and Teal’c and Daniel are standing. She’s looking right at Jack. But instead of responding in the same one-on-one way as Sam is talking to him, Jack replies “We heard.” which totally depersonalizes it. He takes a giant emotional step back at that moment, refusing to respond as Jack to Sam, and instead responding as the generic “we”. And then…as the camera pulls back for the final shot, we see the most painful thing of all…the gesture where Jack starts to reach out his hand to touch her and then aborts the movement and pulls it back, tapping her bed instead. And again, there, as in the other two scenes, the S/J theme plays, telling us that *this* is a personal moment…and the fact that Jack rejects the personal with his words, and stays his hand from the act of touching her…shows that he’s withdrawing from her right then and there.

It’s heart-breaking. Especially the way he pulls his hand back at the end. Because it’s so symbolic of what he’s forcing himself to do to her after this. To pull back. To step back. To put that forceshield that was between them in Upgrades back up firmly in place. And even though we’re not told this specifically in the story, that final shot…with Jack’s final gesture…and that music cue all combine to show the deeper meaning of that moment and the ramifications it has on them personally.

Which is what follows in S5-8. Because if you accept that this is the point where Jack withdrew from the relationship…or, more precisely tried to withdraw, because we see by Desperate Measures in S5 that he really hadn’t…then it’s far easier to understand how Sam ends up in S7 in the fragile emotional state she is in Grace, trying to sort out who she is and what she’s feeling when really, since Entity, nothing was ever the same between her and Jack again.

Okay. Had my say. Going back to lurkdom again.