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    Fab discussion, as always. I watched this one just other day in preparation, but now I'm finding I have little to say about it...dang!

    I completely agree with the sentiment that what actually happens in this episode and Jack's perception of what happens are two completely different things. Eliminating a threat is vastly different to killing the woman you are now fairly certain you love, having someone say "she is important. that's why she was chosen" is very different to "it knows my feelings for her".

    I wonder if Hammond knew this about Jack, and was the reason for his "I know Major Carter means a lot to you" speech. I'm intrigued as to his motives. Was he trying to comfort Jack? Was he making sure Jack knew what had to be done? I'm curious as to your thoughts on what prompted Hammond to make those comments.

    Oh also,

    Something that always confuses me about Entity is this section;

    DANIEL
    So basically you're saying if we had
    just listened to you in the first place
    and blown it up. No seriously, I'm asking,
    is that what you're saying?


    TEAL'C
    If we had destroyed the entity Daniel
    Jackson, Major Carter would not have
    been adversely affected.


    DANIEL
    Okay, I know your first instinct is
    to protect, both of you, that's your
    job, that's what you do but no matter
    what happens, no matter how this turns
    out, Sam wasn't wrong to try to communicate
    with it
    I never quite understand what Daniel's getting at here. Does he think Jack blames him for what happened to Sam? Or that Jack blames science itself? I don't know; every time I watch it, this scene rubs me the wrong way. I just don't like it or understand it.

    In fact, something about Danny seems off to me in the whole episode, later when he says "Just thought you should know, Hammond ordered the mainframe thing in the MALP room destroyed in case the entity managed to find it's way back in there, it's probably what it was trying to do." Is he blaming Jack for what happened? I don't know, but it always rubs me the wrong way.

    Thoughts?
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    Comment


      Does Sam *need* Jack to protect her? No. She's a highly trained military officer who can - in most cases - take care of herself.

      Does Jack feel a responsibility to protect her as her CO? Yes. In fact it's part of his duties to ensure her safety except in extreme situations where he has no choice but to risk her life in order to complete the mission.

      Does Jack as a man feel a responsibility to protect Sam the woman? IMO, yes. Jack is a product of his generation; he grew up in the 50/60s. He's always fairly courteous and gentlemanly with women. That isn't to say he doesn't respect them or consider them as equals - his usual type of woman is strong and intelligent; an equal match. But I'm guessing that I always think he was brought up with the belief that men were there to protect women. And just because he respects that Sam *can* take care of herself, doesn't mean that he doesn't feel that he should be protecting her.

      Should Jack have blamed himself for Sam being infected by the entity? No. As mentioned Hammond made the call. But feeling guilt is not a rational decision. A lot of the time even when we logically know it isn't our fault we can still feel guilty and responsible for a negative outcome. Guilt in these cases tends to be an irrational reaction to a set of circumstances. For me, Jack would feel guilty for *in his eyes* failing to prevent what happened to Sam.

      Could he have argued with Hammond more strongly, clipped the wires earlier, talked to the entity himself rather than Sam, did he give something of his feelings away to it about Sam so it chose her? Did he take the right approach with it? Was his approach the reason why Sam is lying in a bed only alive because of life support? These are all things that I think would be running through Jack's head whether consciously or subconsciously; generating that "I should have done something more"/"this is my fault" feeling.

      And then there is the stark reality that he was the one who fired on her; who shot her; who killed her. And maybe rationally he knows he had no choice - that it was the right thing to do to save Earth; maybe he even believes it would be what she would want him to do - but it's still killing the woman he loves. How can he not feel the pain of that? Guilt?

      So, I agree with Josi: it ultimately doesn't matter what the entity intended - it's how Jack reacts and feels about the entire situation that's key. And I just don't see how anyone in Jack's shoes would not feel some responsibility for what went down and for that to impact their behaviour towards Sam afterwards.

      Daniel...yes, I do think Daniel believed Jack was blaming Daniel for what had happened - missing entirely that I think Jack was too busy really blaming himself. And Daniel's defensive reaction, IMO, is down to Daniel's own misplaced guilt over what happened; that he also is blaming himself and that's why he gets so angry about it. Like I said: guilt isn't rational.
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        Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post

        Isn't this a little extreme? Sam has so many wonderful things going for her in her life, great job, great team and friends, she's re-bonded with her Dad and brother, she's on the cutting edge of scientific advancement and has constant access to the greatest discovery in the history of mankind. But she's not 'complete' or 'psychologically healthy' because she doesn't have a boyfriend so she's unhappy and dysfunctional? I know this is a Ship thread, so I'm trying to moderate my words, but I kind feel like it's shortchanging the Sam character quite a bit to make it seem as if her happiness and psychological well-being is almost completely dependent on her relationship/feelings for Jack or any man for that matter. IMHO, the sum of her happiness and well-being is much more than just the status of her personal life.
        Disclaimer: The following is simply ONE POV - mine. I quote you and others, not to say you're wrong, but simply because it happens to be the best quote to help make my point and present my argument whether I agree or disagree.

        Try to imagine yourself in a situation where you meet a man; a man you’re instantly physically attracted to. A man with whom you have to maintain a purely professional relationship, and a military distance from. You work closely together. You see him every single day, all day - and all night and day a lot of the time too – and your feelings strengthen and deepen into something infinitely more meaningful than that first physical reaction.

        But that can’t be – and you’re a logical, rational, successful and liberated woman – so you push that to the side, tell yourself it’s just admiration and friendship. Until one day – 3 years later because you’re good at lying to yourself – that man is gone. Is he alive and stranded so far from home? Or was he killed in the meteor shower? You don’t know. But what you do know is, he’s gone, and suddenly you realise what that means. You’re life hasn’t simply been turned around, it’s been consumed by the vacuum his absence has created deep within you. You never realised it was there before – the potential of it – because he’d always been right there before. And self denial is no match for it; you’re forced to admit that somewhere along the line he’d become the centre of your universe. Somewhere along the line you fell in love with him.

        You drive yourself to exhaustion to bring about the scientific miracle that brings him home safe and sound after a tortuous 3 months without him. It’s the longest you’ve been apart. But he isn’t yours and he doesn’t love you and you can never be with him that way, you can never even admit it or let it show. But you can move on. You content yourself with a job you also love and the fact that you continue to see him, work with him, every day.

        A year later you discover, to your shock, that he loves you back. And though neither of you act on it, there is a comfort in knowing that the man you love, loves you too. And somehow, that simple knowledge makes it ok, makes it bearable.

        But something changes. You’re not sure when exactly, and you don’t know why, but he doesn’t try to make you smile like he used to, his eyes don’t spark as much when he looks at you, in fact he barely looks at you – a far cry from the practical conversations you and he used to have, almost since the beginning, just from a look. This continues to the point where you’re not even certain he considers you a friend, let alone has any love left for you. 8 years have gone by and despite your best efforts, you’re still deeply in love with that one man – a man’s whose affection for you, it seems, peaked and waned long ago. And oh how that hurts; that he doesn’t love you anymore, when it is becoming increasingly apparent that you’ll never love another.

        You are a strong, independent woman. A successful military officer and scientist, with a job to envy – one you still love doing – and 2 friends who are closer to you than family. You’ve even managed to reconcile with your father and have a good relationship with him. All these things should be enough to define you shouldn’t they? They should certainly be enough to make you HAPPY, shouldn’t they? They should be enough. And indeed they would be enough – for it is true that any woman, esp Sam Carter does not need a man in general terms to make her feel fulfilled and happy. So all that would definitely be enough if it weren’t for the inconvenience of deeply and truly loving a man you can’t have and who probably doesn’t want you.
        Imagine this is you – and then tell me that the paycheck, enjoyment and mental and professional stimulation of your job, and even the good relationships with friends and family is enough for you to be truly happy when you have a gaping hole in your chest that just won’t fill.
        As Sam’s psyche in the guise of Jacob says: You’re content. You’re not happy.
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          Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
          Does Sam *need* Jack to protect her? No. She's a highly trained military officer who can - in most cases - take care of herself.

          Does Jack feel a responsibility to protect her as her CO? Yes. In fact it's part of his duties to ensure her safety except in extreme situations where he has no choice but to risk her life in order to complete the mission.

          Does Jack as a man feel a responsibility to protect Sam the woman? IMO, yes. Jack is a product of his generation; he grew up in the 50/60s. He's always fairly courteous and gentlemanly with women. That isn't to say he doesn't respect them or consider them as equals - his usual type of woman is strong and intelligent; an equal match. But I'm guessing that I always think he was brought up with the belief that men were there to protect women. And just because he respects that Sam *can* take care of herself, doesn't mean that he doesn't feel that he should be protecting her.

          Should Jack have blamed himself for Sam being infected by the entity? No. As mentioned Hammond made the call. But feeling guilt is not a rational decision. A lot of the time even when we logically know it isn't our fault we can still feel guilty and responsible for a negative outcome. Guilt in these cases tends to be an irrational reaction to a set of circumstances. For me, Jack would feel guilty for *in his eyes* failing to prevent what happened to Sam.

          Could he have argued with Hammond more strongly, clipped the wires earlier, talked to the entity himself rather than Sam, did he give something of his feelings away to it about Sam so it chose her? Did he take the right approach with it? Was his approach the reason why Sam is lying in a bed only alive because of life support? These are all things that I think would be running through Jack's head whether consciously or subconsciously; generating that "I should have done something more"/"this is my fault" feeling.

          And then there is the stark reality that he was the one who fired on her; who shot her; who killed her. And maybe rationally he knows he had no choice - that it was the right thing to do to save Earth; maybe he even believes it would be what she would want him to do - but it's still killing the woman he loves. How can he not feel the pain of that? Guilt?

          So, I agree with Josi: it ultimately doesn't matter what the entity intended - it's how Jack reacts and feels about the entire situation that's key. And I just don't see how anyone in Jack's shoes would not feel some responsibility for what went down and for that to impact their behaviour towards Sam afterwards.

          Daniel...yes, I do think Daniel believed Jack was blaming Daniel for what had happened - missing entirely that I think Jack was too busy really blaming himself. And Daniel's defensive reaction, IMO, is down to Daniel's own misplaced guilt over what happened; that he also is blaming himself and that's why he gets so angry about it. Like I said: guilt isn't rational.
          Sure he felt a responsibility to protect her as her CO once the Entity took her but he did not feel he caused her to be in this situation.

          I agree that Jack feels he should protect women. But like I said, if his feelings for Sam as a woman is going to get in the way of him doing his job then he or she needs to get off the team. That never happened which tells me that it's not a problem.

          I don't think Jack ever felt guilty about Sam being taken. I think he regretted that the ugly part of their job actually happened. I think when Sam was on life support he was grieving and thinking all of those thoughts and then working it all out that he was not in control of any of it and it happened because that's the risk each of them takes every day.

          The Jack zatting Sam part is one of the problems I have with the story. Once trapped in the corridor, the Entity started "escaping" and Jack tried to stop it by zatting it but it continued so Jack then contemplated that deadly second shot. Meanwhile, from the sound, the Entity completed its escape and then Jack zatted again. Why did Jack shoot a second time if it was completely out of Sam? Shouldn't they have run to her instead, believing she was safe? We could still have the drama in the infirmary and the rescue.

          I agree that Jack would feel some responsibility. I also think that he feels he did the best he could to make things right. I don't see it impacting his behavior towards Sam though. That would mean he would either have to do less "being responsible" or more even or he'd have to leave the team. Emotionally pushing Sam away is not going to make him stop loving her or love her less. He knows this because it didn't work when he did it to Sara. He still loves Sara but what they had was damaged beyond repair and that was his fault.

          So his only option is to leave the team, which he didn't do.

          This is why I feel that this incident did not have any damaging effect on their relationship. If anything, it strengthened it and drew him closer to Sam. And Sam to Jack. That's what I see at the very end when he and she are looking at each other then Jack starts to reach out to her but stops because everybody is right there. The hopeless romantic in me is sure that if they'd been alone we would have gotten another "Into the Fire" style hug.

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            Originally posted by UhSir View Post
            Sure he felt a responsibility to protect her as her CO once the Entity took her but he did not feel he caused her to be in this situation.

            I agree that Jack feels he should protect women. But like I said, if his feelings for Sam as a woman is going to get in the way of him doing his job then he or she needs to get off the team. That never happened which tells me that it's not a problem.

            <snip>

            I agree that Jack would feel some responsibility. I also think that he feels he did the best he could to make things right. I don't see it impacting his behavior towards Sam though. That would mean he would either have to do less "being responsible" or more even or he'd have to leave the team. Emotionally pushing Sam away is not going to make him stop loving her or love her less. He knows this because it didn't work when he did it to Sara. He still loves Sara but what they had was damaged beyond repair and that was his fault.

            So his only option is to leave the team, which he didn't do.

            This is why I feel that this incident did not have any damaging effect on their relationship. If anything, it strengthened it and drew him closer to Sam. And Sam to Jack. That's what I see at the very end when he and she are looking at each other then Jack starts to reach out to her but stops because everybody is right there. The hopeless romantic in me is sure that if they'd been alone we would have gotten another "Into the Fire" style hug.
            See, I think this is where your interpretation of Jack and mine part ways, and we're never going to agree.

            Because I do see him feeling responsible and feeling like he caused her to be in the situation.

            I do think Jack's feelings for Sam was affecting how he did his job (staying with her at the forceshield, volunteering to do the procedure when they were za'tarcs in the hope of saving her) - just as Sam's feelings for him affected how she did her job (yelling at Dr Lee, for example; working all the hours to build a device to rescue him from Edora); they should have been separated, IMO, in a strict sense of the frat regs because not only were they too close but SG1 was too close. Even Hammond when he cautions Jack recognises that.

            Now Jack did end up shooting her and it could be argued that ultimately he didn't allow his feelings for her to affect what needed to be done - but hadn't they already affected the approach he took with the entity; hadn't it already affected his behaviour in terms of his anger at not destroying it originally; his evident frustration.

            And I do think it impacted their relationship afterwards. What I see is Jack reaching out - and more importantly, drawing back. Because he's not supposed to touch her; not supposed to comfort her; not supposed to hug her.

            For me, post Entity, their relationship does change. And the explanation for that IMO is right here. In Jack's need to protect her takes priority - and that means he gives up on the idea of ever being with her, on that hope. Because it's more important that he's her CO and that's all someone reads into their relationship than endangering Sam by being openly affectionate and flirty with her. Because he's scared. Because he thinks that their professional relationship is the one Sam needs and wants. I think he recognised that he still loved her but I think for a time he was determined to move on; to NOT love her - because he learned with Sara that it would hurt like hell but he could move on and love someone else.

            Only he never does.

            Like I say; I think we have vastly different interpretations.
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              Originally posted by Bekki View Post
              Fab discussion, as always. I watched this one just other day in preparation, but now I'm finding I have little to say about it...dang!

              I completely agree with the sentiment that what actually happens in this episode and Jack's perception of what happens are two completely different things. Eliminating a threat is vastly different to killing the woman you are now fairly certain you love, having someone say "she is important. that's why she was chosen" is very different to "it knows my feelings for her".

              I wonder if Hammond knew this about Jack, and was the reason for his "I know Major Carter means a lot to you" speech. I'm intrigued as to his motives. Was he trying to comfort Jack? Was he making sure Jack knew what had to be done? I'm curious as to your thoughts on what prompted Hammond to make those comments.
              I think Hammond asked Jack because he suspected pretty much what we've all been discussing, that Jack was perceiving the whole situation as being somehow his fault and being the chickens coming home to roost, as it were, where his feelings for Sam were concerned. So I think he was asking him in order to find out whether his suspicions were correct, and also to find out what magnitude of problem he was facing. By asking in the way he did he was giving Jack an opening to admit that he'd got too close to Sam and that therefore things would have to change, but not doing so in such an overt way that Jack had to, should Jack decide to do what he did and deal with the too close thing himself. I guess he was giving Jack the opportunity to choose either Sam personally or professionally, but in such a way that it really was totally Jack's decision. Jack chose professionally, and we see the consequence of that choice over the next season as he pulls back from her personally.

              Hmm, not sure I've explained what I mean very well there, but I've rewritten it three times already so that'll have to do!

              Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
              See, I think this is where your interpretation of Jack and mine part ways, and we're never going to agree.

              Because I do see him feeling responsible and feeling like he caused her to be in the situation.

              I do think Jack's feelings for Sam was affecting how he did his job (staying with her at the forceshield, volunteering to do the procedure when they were za'tarcs in the hope of saving her) - just as Sam's feelings for him affected how she did her job (yelling at Dr Lee, for example; working all the hours to build a device to rescue him from Edora); they should have been separated, IMO, in a strict sense of the frat regs because not only were they too close but SG1 was too close. Even Hammond when he cautions Jack recognises that.

              Now Jack did end up shooting her and it could be argued that ultimately he didn't allow his feelings for her to affect what needed to be done - but hadn't they already affected the approach he took with the entity; hadn't it already affected his behaviour in terms of his anger at not destroying it originally; his evident frustration.

              And I do think it impacted their relationship afterwards. What I see is Jack reaching out - and more importantly, drawing back. Because he's not supposed to touch her; not supposed to comfort her; not supposed to hug her.

              For me, post Entity, their relationship does change. And the explanation for that IMO is right here. In Jack's need to protect her takes priority - and that means he gives up on the idea of ever being with her, on that hope. Because it's more important that he's her CO and that's all someone reads into their relationship than endangering Sam by being openly affectionate and flirty with her. Because he's scared. Because he thinks that their professional relationship is the one Sam needs and wants. I think he recognised that he still loved her but I think for a time he was determined to move on; to NOT love her - because he learned with Sara that it would hurt like hell but he could move on and love someone else.

              Only he never does.

              Like I say; I think we have vastly different interpretations.
              I think this is the key point here, as Rachel has set out - Entity is not about the story itself, it's about the effect that story has on the characters, and therefore it can only be seen in context. The significance of Entity lies entirely in when it comes in the grand story. I think it really is an episode where if you don't see the ship, you probably feel entirely nonplussed about. It's about something happening that makes Jack realise that he and Sam have got too close, that the way they've been all season - the flirtiness, the admissions and almost admissions - is a problem, that they can't go on like that and still be on SG1 and not be a danger to themselves and to Earth as a whole, and therefore provides the catalyst for him to pull back.
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                I interpret the Entity's statement "Because this one is important" a little differently - I don't see it as the Entity meaning to Jack specifically but instead because Sam is important to Earth - her knowledge, her experience with the Stargate - make her incredibly valuable. No doubt, if you were a reasonable being, if you can inhabit someone's head you want to pick the one person they might be willing to negotiate for - maybe the Entity could access her memories etc and therefore her knowledge might be worth trading for.

                I think everyone else around them might *create* a double meaning (and after being in her head, the Entity might imply a secondary meaning) but the primary was that Sam was uber-smart.

                I also don't think Jack saw himself as responsible for Sam being taken over - I think he blames himself for killing her (despite it being the right choice). What I get from his hesitation is that this the second time in his life someone he loves is going to die by his own "gun" - proof to me that he still has a lot of issues over Charlie's death and that he is way too in love with Sam to stay on SG-1. That it affects Jack that deeply speaks to how Sam has gotten under his skin.

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                  Originally posted by JenniferJF View Post
                  Of course it is. *But*, it was her personal life and happiness Jacob was so intent on sorting out on his death bed, which rather indicates he felt it needed to be a priority. And I do think the entire point of 'Grace' was for Sam to realize, as much success and contentment as she had professionally, she needed... well... Someone to Love and to Love her in Return, to quote what 'Jacob' told her in her hallucination and, since I believe that was actually her subconscious, then I'd have to argue that, as anti-feminist as it *seems*, that's *exactly* how Sam felt. And I'd also argue that, since it was important enough for her to have this entire hallucination about it in Grace, and the realization in fact led her to date Pete, and later to show up in Jack's backyard to confront him with her feelings, and I really think she was increasingly miserable through S8 as she realized she was doing the wrong thing, then Yes, I'd go so far as to say, in hiding from her own feelings and pretending they weren't important, she was denying herself the full happiness she deserved. And I think denying oneself ones true desires out of fear and a desire to fill the roles set by others (that of a perfect officer in this case) and following all the rules and regulations simply because they exist (which Replicarter accused her of) at the cost of ones own happiness is, in fact, psychologically dysfunctional.

                  I'm not saying all women, or even any woman at all times, needs a man to be complete and happy. But I find it hard to argue against the idea that, by S7 and S8, Sam had come to the conclusion that, at that point in her life, with everything else in her life falling into place, that was, in fact, the element in her life missing which was needed to give *her* happiness. It's not about one or the other, or one being more important than the other, but about balance. And, in fact, since I believe her and Jack did, in fact, get together after Threads, then I think the increased confidence and happiness I believe I see in her after S8 is, in fact, a result of this. Not simply in 'having Jack', but in overcoming those fears and the need to fit herself into the roles she'd believed others (mainly Jacob) wanted her to fill and accepting herself for what she is -for all that she is, not simply as a scientist and officer but also the human part of her that needed intimate companionship (and I believe men need it as much as women - it's not one-sided), she really did become the best person she could possibly be.

                  So, while it may seem extreme, I really do think the entire point of Sam's emotional journey during S7 and S8 was that, as much success as she'd had professionally, while she continued to deny herself what she wanted in her personal life she could never find real happiness or be the full complete person she had the right to be. Like I said, the entire point of Grace I think was her coming to this realization.
                  Could Sam be happier and have a fuller and more complete life than she currently has, sure. But does her not having 'everything' and being a 'full complete person' at this point in her life make her unhappy and dysfunctional, IMHO no. Sam is on a journey just like anyone, and right now I feel she's still caught up in the thrill of the exploration and discoveries of her job and it's that and her friends and teammates that give her the most happiness and satisfaction in her life. What makes her happy at one time in her life may not be enough to make her happy at another time, but that doesn't mean that she's not happy at this point, IMO.

                  A few years down the line, more years of war, losing Daniel, almost losing Jack and Teal'c several times after that, and the happiness she finds in her job/friends/hobbies etc are not quite enough anymore so she begins to desire something more, hence the Jacob hallucination in Grace. But she doesn't think about that until she's been working for days and is nearing the end of her rope, and she doesn't think about Jack at all until she's literally minutes from death. So IMHO, it's not something on the forefront of her mind and something she agonizes about enough to make her miserable or unhappy.

                  This discussion began from the Light ep and I believe you were saying that Sam was unhappy and dysfunctional at this point in her life (please correct me if I'm mistaken). While IMHO, I feel that Sam is very happy with her life at this point in the series, and then starting after the events of Meridian Sam slowly starts to feel that what's currently making her happy is not quite enough anymore, and that feeling comes to a head with the events of Grace.

                  IMHO, finding happiness in the different aspects of one's life, finding balance, and becoming a more complete, well-rounded, and better person is a process that goes on for one's entire life. Some people may achieve this or get close to achieving this sooner than others, but just because you don't quite get there doesn't make you a failure or dysfunctional or unhappy. It just means your road is a bit longer and you still have a ways to go in your journey. So IMO, it just doesn't seem fair to Sam (or Jack) to penalize them for not winning the race when they've only run half of it so far.


                  Originally posted by Rachel500 View Post
                  Should Jack have blamed himself for Sam being infected by the entity? No. As mentioned Hammond made the call. But feeling guilt is not a rational decision. A lot of the time even when we logically know it isn't our fault we can still feel guilty and responsible for a negative outcome. Guilt in these cases tends to be an irrational reaction to a set of circumstances. For me, Jack would feel guilty for *in his eyes* failing to prevent what happened to Sam.
                  I agree Jack would feel guilty that Sam was put in danger, something I think he'd feel if anyone on his team were in danger even if the circumstances, like this one, were out of his control. But IMO, he wouldn't feel that his feelings for her were responsible for Sam getting infected. This is Jack who is the least likely to believe that a robot or an electrical entity like this one would have feelings of its own, so why would he believe that it could somehow interpret his feelings based on military records and a few hours of footage?

                  Originally posted by mara-anni View Post
                  Disclaimer: The following is simply ONE POV - mine. I quote you and others, not to say you're wrong, but simply because it happens to be the best quote to help make my point and present my argument whether I agree or disagree.

                  You are a strong, independent woman. A successful military officer and scientist, with a job to envy – one you still love doing – and 2 friends who are closer to you than family. You’ve even managed to reconcile with your father and have a good relationship with him. All these things should be enough to define you shouldn’t they? They should certainly be enough to make you HAPPY, shouldn’t they? They should be enough. And indeed they would be enough – for it is true that any woman, esp Sam Carter does not need a man in general terms to make her feel fulfilled and happy. So all that would definitely be enough if it weren’t for the inconvenience of deeply and truly loving a man you can’t have and who probably doesn’t want you.
                  Imagine this is you – and then tell me that the paycheck, enjoyment and mental and professional stimulation of your job, and even the good relationships with friends and family is enough for you to be truly happy when you have a gaping hole in your chest that just won’t fill.
                  As Sam’s psyche in the guise of Jacob says: You’re content. You’re not happy.
                  I get where you're coming from, but in my interpretation of Sam, her feelings and love for Jack are not a hole in her chest that just won't fill. It's an aspect of her life that could make her happier sure, and for most of the series she stays content with the state of their friendship. But IMHO, Sam is much more than content with many of the other aspects of her life, so on the whole I'd say she's quite happy.

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                    Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                    I get where you're coming from, but in my interpretation of Sam, her feelings and love for Jack are not a hole in her chest that just won't fill. It's an aspect of her life that could make her happier sure, and for most of the series she stays content with the state of their friendship. But IMHO, Sam is much more than content with many of the other aspects of her life, so on the whole I'd say she's quite happy.
                    Perhaps.
                    If it weren't for the fact that she's jealous of Kerry, clearly more and more miserable as S8 progresses...
                    and if it weren't for the fact that Sam herself - in Grace - TELLS us she's unhappy, and why (no Jack).
                    *shrugs* I'm just sayin'
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                      As a single woman in my thirties, I fully believe you don't need to be in a relationship to have a happy and fulfilling life. And despite being a shipper, I don't think Sam *needed* Jack or any man to make her happy or complete. Like Evenstar, I tend to think what makes us happy/content changes with our life journey and what makes us happy at 20, might not be making us happy at 30, or at 40.

                      In S1, I think Sam was incredibly happy. She'd secured her place on a programme she loved, got to travel through the wormhole with SG1, had made some pretty terrific friends, had a CO she admired and respected, and was doing a job she enjoyed.

                      In S4, I think Sam was happy. She had a job she loved, close friends who were more like family, her relationship with her father was the closest it had ever been and she had the love of the man she loved and was happy with the status quo of remaining professional because of more underlying fears of risking her heart in a relationship.

                      By, S7 I think Sam was content but not happy. She had a job she loved but she was beginning to recognise that she had no life outside of the programme; she was beginning to consider whether she did *want* a marriage like the one she had seen her parents enjoy (Grace conversation with Jacob) that she'd always considered she would get one day. With Jack, I think what the Grace conversation with him gives away is (a) that she still loved him, (b) that she wasn't sure how he felt about her beyond loving and caring for her as a friend who would always be there for her in that regard and (c) that she had fixated on him to some degree ignoring other possibilities because a non-relationship with her CO was a safe compared to risking her heart on a real relationship. What I think she *needed* by Grace was to know one way or another how Jack felt about her.

                      In S8, I think Sam for the most part was miserable. She had a job she loved, a man in her life and she wasn't happy. Mostly because the man she was with wasn't the one she loved most; because she knew it was a mistake. And again, I think even if Jack's answer in Threads had been different, I think Sam would have been happier breaking up with Pete and being single again despite potentially having lost Jack - because I think that's the peace she makes with herself as she watches her dying father in the observation room when she believes Jack is with Kerry. For me, before Jack enters Sam has spent a lot of time thinking about Jacob, thinking about what he has said to her because he knows she's not happy with Pete, thinking about her life and choices and accepts that Pete is over, Jack may be with someone else but she's OK and has got to a good, solid place. And then Jack gives her the cherry on top by telling her 'always' and confirming he still loved her too.

                      Post Threads, I do think Sam is happy for the most part. She has a job she loves, a man in life who loves her and who she equally loves back and despite complications like a long distance relationship, they're making it work and that's the main thing. Maybe it's not the conventional marriage and kids, white picket fence, but it works for them.

                      For me it comes down to the old saying: I'd rather be alone and happy than miserable and with the wrong person.
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                        Ok, I stayed away for the last few days as I wasn't sure when to jump in. Great discussion everyone Personally though I think I'llside with UhSir, Evenstar and Nynaeve on this one. Not completely, but I agree with most points they made.

                        Firstly, I tend to agree with Evenstar that at this point Sam is perfectly happy. She loves her job, her team is closer to her than her family (and her relationship with her actual family had been mended too) and she knows that the guy she loves loves her back and they have this mutual understanding they'll wait and that their work takes precedence. It's enough for now to make her feel fulfilled and complete. Sure, in the next 2 years a lot will happen to make her question her life and not feel so secure anymore, which will culminate in Grace (her unhappiness in season 8 is a direct consequence of her wrong choice made after Grace), but for now it's enough.

                        Secondly, I agree with Nyna and UhSir that Entity didn't choose Sam because of Jack but because of her importance to Earth and SG-1 in general and that there's no way Jack blames himself for her posession, for the reasons Evenstar and UhSir explained better than I ever could:

                        Originally posted by UhSir
                        I don't think Jack feels responsible for Sam being taken over by the Entity. General Hammond gave the order. If anyone is responsible it's Hammond. Jack voiced his objections. Hammond overruled. That's how the military works, right?
                        Originally posted by EvenstarSRV
                        I agree Jack would feel guilty that Sam was put in danger, something I think he'd feel if anyone on his team were in danger even if the circumstances, like this one, were out of his control. But IMO, he wouldn't feel that his feelings for her were responsible for Sam getting infected. This is Jack who is the least likely to believe that a robot or an electrical entity like this one would have feelings of its own, so why would he believe that it could somehow interpret his feelings based on military records and a few hours of footage?
                        Actually, I agree completely with the whole paragraph.
                        I firmly believe that there was nothing in the first half of the episode that would hint at any feelings for each other. They behaved very professionally. If anything, Sam was more friendly with Daniel and Walter (!) than with Jack. Someone earlier mentioned records of Za'tarc testing, but that doesn't work for me either, because these cameras don't record sound. And even if they did, I just don't buy the concept of such alien alien being able to recognise and manipulate human feelings. Sorry.

                        Originally posted by Bekki View Post
                        I wonder if Hammond knew this about Jack, and was the reason for his "I know Major Carter means a lot to you" speech. I'm intrigued as to his motives. Was he trying to comfort Jack? Was he making sure Jack knew what had to be done? I'm curious as to your thoughts on what prompted Hammond to make those comments.
                        The bolded part is my interpretation. Hammond knows that Jack and Sam had gotten close. He isn't blind and he probably knows about Za'tarc testing. But he also knows how much of a private person Jack is and knows how much both of them are dedicated to their jobs and so IMO he decided not to interfere in any way. Here though he feels compelled to remind Jack that the worst option may be their only option and Jack doesn't disappoint him. So yeah, I see it as checking if they are on the same page, so to speak.

                        I never quite understand what Daniel's getting at here. Does he think Jack blames him for what happened to Sam? Or that Jack blames science itself? I don't know; every time I watch it, this scene rubs me the wrong way. I just don't like it or understand it.
                        In fact, something about Danny seems off to me in the whole episode, later when he says "Just thought you should know, Hammond ordered the mainframe thing in the MALP room destroyed in case the entity managed to find it's way back in there, it's probably what it was trying to do." Is he blaming Jack for what happened? I don't know, but it always rubs me the wrong way.

                        Thoughts?
                        I see these scenes as continuation of season 4 theme: military vs science, Jack vs Daniel. In TOS Daniel turned out to be right, in SE they both had equally valid arguments and I kinda see Entity as the episode where Jack was right and Daniel wrong; it was science and attempts at communication that got them into this mess and the military solution could have saved evryone the trouble. And yes, I think the guys blame each other, in the same way they blamed each other for their choices in the previous 2 episodes (if that makes sense).

                        It's also proof for me that Jack doesn't really blame himself for Sam's possession; he's rather pissed that he was overruled when he was, in fact, right.

                        As for Daniel's behaviour, I think it's one of the episodes that drive home that he often thinks in abstracts and in greater terms than people.

                        Originally posted by UhSir
                        It bugs me that everyone, including the Entity, acted like Jack was in charge. Before Sam got taken over, Hammond was in charge but afterwards Jack is? Does not compute, and I'm a shipper!
                        This is one part when I'd say I disagree, but mainly I'm surprised. I've never had an impression that Jack is in charge. In fact I always think of Entity when I think of most important Hammond episodes. Jack dutifully does what he's told, he attends all briefings, does his duties and sits with Sam in his spare time. He checks his every decision with Hammond. And it makes sense to me that Entity talks to him, because he's Sam's direct CO .

                        I love Entity. I agree it has some plotholes - well, actually one big plothole, because the only thing i can't explain to myself was why Jack zatted Sam the second time. At the end of the episode we learn that it was the right decision but at the moment when he fires it doesn't make a lot of sense. But I'm also not bothered by it because the ep itself is so compelling and interesting that I tend to overlook it.

                        I also consider it to be one of the shippiest episodes ever, even though I tend to go with more rational/teamy/military view of its events. I agree that Jack's distance in the next season has a lot to do with him killing Sam here, but I also think it's part of the larger trend: in season 4 he almost blew up Daniel, killed Sam and watched Teal'c die before his eyes, unable to protect him (Exodus), so basically he came this close to losing all members of his team - his whole new family. It had to affect him. Having said that, his fight for Sam and his zatting her, even though he'd do it for T and Daniel too, are what make the ep shippy. Not his guilt.

                        So for me the real shipiness comes from double implications, as Nyna mentioned earlier. Everything has double meaning. I do think Entity is a great Jack episode even if you don't see ship, but if you do it becomes one of the most complex episodes in the series.

                        Gah, that's why I didn't post earlier, I'm unable to write down my feelings about it and I come across as a bit of a hypocrite. Oh well.
                        There's a good chance this opinion is shared by Ashizuri
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                          I wanted to pipe in on a military thing - Jack making decisions while Hammond hangs in the background isn't unusual if Jack's the "second in command" at the base. My father was D.O (Duty Officer) for his squadron and for the most part he handled a lot of the personnel issues, discipline, assignments, etc, while his commander did a lot of paperwork and flew the desk. So it's not unusual for the boss to delegate. Off to work...

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                            Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                            I get where you're coming from, but in my interpretation of Sam, her feelings and love for Jack are not a hole in her chest that just won't fill. It's an aspect of her life that could make her happier sure, and for most of the series she stays content with the state of their friendship. But IMHO, Sam is much more than content with many of the other aspects of her life, so on the whole I'd say she's quite happy.
                            If you're saying that, at the point of The Light, Sam's feelings and loneliness haven't reached a point yet where she's unhappy, then I'd say that's quite possible. If you're saying that, eventually (by Grace), she's still happy with the state of her life, then I absolutely have to disagree. I think in Grace with Jacob speaking as her subconscious, it's made very clear she's not happy. This is the transcript:
                            Spoiler:
                            JACOB
                            Are you happy, Sam?
                            CARTER
                            What?
                            JACOB
                            Just answer the question.
                            CARTER
                            Well, at the moment things are a little rough, but, in general, sure, I'm happy.
                            JACOB
                            No, you're not. You're content, you're satisfied. You're in control. And that's the problem.
                            CARTER
                            Okay, I'm really not following here.
                            JACOB
                            I'm saying, you're missing something vital from your life. And the sad part is you have no idea what I'm talking about.
                            CARTER
                            Dad, I am happy. I've seen and done things most people couldn't even dream of. I have an incredible life.
                            JACOB
                            And yet you're alone.
                            CARTER
                            Well, lately the dating scene been a little stale, but then again I am marooned on a spaceship.
                            JACOB
                            No. Always. For as long as she was alive, your mother showed me a world beyond just ambition and career. She gave my life meaning, and balance. And it was my honour to love her for the short time she was with me.
                            [Carter looks increasingly upset.]
                            JACOB
                            And if I were young again, and I met her for the first time, even knowing her fate, I would do it all over again. That is love.
                            [There is a pause, as Carter tries to gather herself together.]
                            JACOB
                            Sam? I know you have denied yourself the experience because you think that it must inevitably end in pain, and loneliness,
                            [Carter is openly crying now, and cannot answer. She gently shakes her head. Jacob reaches over and takes her hand in his.]
                            JACOB
                            It's time to let go of the things that prevent you from finding happiness. you deserve to love someone, and be loved in return.
                            If the entire point of that scene isn't Sam finally coming to realize that, despite everything she's done and accomplished, she's not happy because she's still lonely and she needs to find love and have an intimate relationship, I can't imagine what it means. Like I said, many folks might not be happy with the theory postulated here that Sam isn't happy because she doesn't 'have a man', but I think it's quite clear from this conversation that she's not. Moreover, I get the impression from the scene that Sam hasn't been happy for some time, which is why I think it goes back years, probably to The Light or before, though that's just a theory and there is no real proof for that.

                            And I think it's Jack she wants, because of her real exchange with the real Jacob in Threads when he says:
                            Spoiler:
                            JACOB: I just wanna know you’re gonna be happy.
                            CARTER: I am.
                            JACOB: Don’t let rules stand in your way.
                            (Sam looks puzzled.)
                            CARTER: What are you talking about?
                            JACOB: You joined the Air Force because of me.
                            CARTER: I love my job.
                            JACOB: Mmm. (He reaches out and strokes her cheek.) You can still have everything you want.
                            CARTER: I do, Dad. (Jacob sighs, frustrated that she doesn’t understand or refuses to understand what he’s talking about. She takes his hand again.) Really.
                            Granted, this interpretation is a bit more vague than the one earlier in Grace, but since Jack is the person we know Sam's been denying herself because of the regulations, I think it's safe to assume Jacob is talking about her wanting Jack here, and from Sam's reaction, I think it's clear she knows Jacob is really correct (especially given the next thing she says - to Jack - is an observation of how well she'd gotten to Jacob, which I think acknowledges the accuracy of Jacob's observation). Again, I think we're seeing here that as much as Sam loves her job and enjoys her job, she really does have a hole in her life that - in his last and final dying moments with her - Jacob feels is important enough to try to get Sam to fill so she can be happy.

                            Given all this, I find it impossible to believe Sam has really been *happy*, despite all her other successes. There's just to much acknowledgement of her not being happy, either by her subconscious or her agreeing with Jacob, for me to believe that.

                            EDIT: I should add that I do believe it's possible for a person to be 'happy' in one area of their life but, if they're not happy - or at least not working *towards* happiness - in other areas than they can't truly claim real 'happiness'. If Sam had this uber perfect romantic life but perceived herself to be a complete failure professionally, she would also not be happy. It's possible we're differing over definitions of happiness here...
                            Last edited by JenniferJF; 03 March 2010, 04:16 AM.

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                              All I want to say is that Jack or Jacob in Sam's imagination from Grace are not the real life Jack and Jacob it's what Sam thinks of them - see the difference between what Jacob 'says' in Grace and what he says in Threads

                              Comment


                                As Rachel said above
                                "By, S7 I think Sam was content but not happy. She had a job she loved but she was beginning to recognise that she had no life outside of the programme"
                                I think this was the point of the bet in the beginning of The Light. Daniel and Jack realized that way before she did. (Not that Daniel or Jack had much outside of work either.)
                                Last edited by Zoser; 03 March 2010, 07:32 AM.
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